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Old 07-01-2010, 06:39 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by karl j View Post
Your perception of who the vendor really is, is flawed,
Possibly by your understanding, but not mine. The point of this thread is to ask where is the consideration for the purchaser, or if you prefer the new tenant, and it appears that some promote on this forum that the person who obtained the mortgage has received no consideration, and therefore, is no longer obliged to continue to service the loan. However, my point is that if money received is not a consideration, it follows that the seller, vendor, or previous tenant, however you wish to put it, has a claim against the new tenant as the contract was unlawful. No matter which title you give to the parties involved, their names are on a contract, which it appears offered no consideration to both sides.

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Old 07-01-2010, 06:53 PM   #242
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I don't know much about this topic so may come off a fool but what about the down payment? if one puts down 10,000 (whatever currency) the bank can then loan 100,000 (WC). so by paying them the down payment did you not create the ability for them to give you the money in the first place?
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:55 PM   #243
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One quick note to add to this... the people offering the non fulfillment of contract option use more than just consideration as one of the stipulations to prove a contract is legal and enforcable. To prove my point your perception of vendor is flawed you state as much in your last post - Quote "my point is that if money received is not a consideration, it follows that the seller, vendor, or previous tenant, however you wish to put it, has a claim against the new tenant as the contract was unlawful"
Your premise is built around the current occupier being the vendor when he is only a tenant due to bankruptcy, the Bank is the true vendor therefore the existing tenant has no power to claim anything against the new tenant. Now he may have a claim against the bank.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:59 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by karl j View Post
One quick note to add to this... the people offering the non fulfillment of contract option use more than just consideration as one of the stipulations to prove a contract is legal and enforcable. To prove my point your perception of vendor is flawed you state as much in your last post - Quote "my point is that if money received is not a consideration, it follows that the seller, vendor, or previous tenant, however you wish to put it, has a claim against the new tenant as the contract was unlawful"
Your premise is built around the current occupier being the vendor when he is only a tenant due to bankruptcy, the Bank is the true vendor therefore the existing tenant has no power to claim anything against the new tenant. Now he may have a claim against the bank.
So the old tenant's contract is with the new tenant's lender? How did that come about? Seems a strange contract to me.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:00 PM   #245
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I don't know much about this topic so may come off a fool but what about the down payment? if one puts down 10,000 (whatever currency) the bank can then loan 100,000 (WC). so by paying them the down payment did you not create the ability for them to give you the money in the first place?
10,000 of what? it's debt money, has no value, the value is the negotiable instrument you signed... the contract, this is monetised and sold on. You are pledging your labour, the real trick is to get them to give you real value so you can pay a debt instead of debt notes that pay nothing.
It's enough to make your head spin
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:02 PM   #246
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karl j wrote
Quote:
Your premise is built around the current occupier being the vendor when he is only a tenant due to bankruptcy, the Bank is the true vendor therefore the existing tenant has no power to claim anything against the new tenant. Now he may have a claim against the bank.
Why does the bank then allow the vendor to walk away with the cash when they sell a mortgage free house if it doesnt belong to them?
If they are simply tenants as you say they would have no right to any money would they?

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Old 07-01-2010, 07:03 PM   #247
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the real trick is to get them to give you real value so you can pay a debt instead of debt notes that pay nothing.
But if what you say is correct ( ) you are only paying back with debt notes which have no value, so it is costing nothing anyway.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:25 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by asky View Post
karl j wrote


Why does the bank then allow the vendor to walk away with the cash when they sell a mortgage free house if it doesnt belong to them?
If they are simply tenants as you say they would have no right to any money would they?

asky
When the debt money is created and given to you as the perceived vendor the bank through fractional reserve banking turn it into 15 time what they gave you so why would they care. another thing is that corporations in bankruptcy operate as though nothing was wrong so the perceived purchaser and vendor do business as normal.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:27 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by asky View Post
karl j wrote


Why does the bank then allow the vendor to walk away with the cash when they sell a mortgage free house if it doesnt belong to them?
If they are simply tenants as you say they would have no right to any money would they?

asky
What do you mean by money?
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:27 PM   #250
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But if what you say is correct ( ) you are only paying back with debt notes which have no value, so it is costing nothing anyway.
There is a way to discharge or setoff debt and it has nothing to do with fiat currency, it is also against public policy.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:34 PM   #251
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What do you think I mean?

I will put it simply for you.
A big pile of notes that I can exchange for goods of value.

Oh sorry money is an illusion isnt it

I dont know about you but my notes keep being accepted in shops for some reason.

I hope no freeman decide to work in shops then Im really going to be in trouble.

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Old 07-01-2010, 07:37 PM   #252
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karl j wrote
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There is a way to discharge or setoff debt and it has nothing to do with fiat currency, it is also against public policy.
I await your solution with baited breath

please dont let it be A4V now that would be funny

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Old 07-01-2010, 07:40 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by karl j View Post
10,000 of what? it's debt money, has no value, the value is the negotiable instrument you signed... the contract, this is monetised and sold on. You are pledging your labour, the real trick is to get them to give you real value so you can pay a debt instead of debt notes that pay nothing.
It's enough to make your head spin
I originally wrote

I don't know much about this topic so may come off a fool but what about the down payment? if one puts down 10,000 (whatever currency) the bank can then loan 100,000 (WC). so by paying them the down payment did you not create the ability for them to give you the money in the first place?

I'm now saying

What I am saying is banks must have 10 percent of what they loan out in deposit in their bank if only for one day. soooooo if I pay the bank 10,000 (whatever currency) does that not in itself create the 100,000 (WC) they are going to loan me? So in effect I created the money for my "loan" they did not so the note is owed to me technically.

I know it's a different way of looking at it, but I'm always out of the box.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:41 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asky View Post
What do you think I mean?

I will put it simply for you.
A big pile of notes that I can exchange for goods of value.

Oh sorry money is an illusion isnt it

I dont know about you but my notes keep being accepted in shops for some reason.

I hope no freeman decide to work in shops then Im really going to be in trouble.

asky
try going into a bank presenting a GB20 note and asking for them to redeem the 20 pounds of gold. Better still if you believe they are such value then hoard as many as you can and when the sky falls in and you survive see how many people except them then.. That why they are only perceived as having value, because right now we have no other choice and everyone is happy to continue using them and they erronously beleive they are of actual value.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:42 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asky View Post
What do you think I mean?

I will put it simply for you.
A big pile of notes that I can exchange for goods of value.

Oh sorry money is an illusion isnt it

I dont know about you but my notes keep being accepted in shops for some reason.

I hope no freeman decide to work in shops then Im really going to be in trouble.

asky
If I knew what you meant I wouldn't have askyed

Then I saw this, your def as I have just read in another thread; "Money is a medium of exchange based on your labour." asky 2010

Where did you get that def from?
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:45 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufochick View Post
I originally wrote

I don't know much about this topic so may come off a fool but what about the down payment? if one puts down 10,000 (whatever currency) the bank can then loan 100,000 (WC). so by paying them the down payment did you not create the ability for them to give you the money in the first place?

I'm now saying

What I am saying is banks must have 10 percent of what they loan out in deposit in their bank if only for one day. soooooo if I pay the bank 10,000 (whatever currency) does that not in itself create the 100,000 (WC) they are going to loan me? So in effect I created the money for my "loan" they did not so the note is owed to me technically.

I know it's a different way of looking at it, but I'm always out of the box.
Actually no, you gave them something that has no value, your signature on a loan agreement which then becomes a negotiable instrument is what has all the value and creates the money. I understand your logic but in practise it does not work that way.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:48 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by relentless View Post
If I knew what you meant I wouldn't have askyed

Then I saw this, your def as I have just read in another thread; "Money is a medium of exchange based on your labour." asky 2010

Where did you get that def from?
The true definition is that money is used to facilitate the transfer of goods and services, money can be defined as anything of value and includes labour.
I have to depart so will rejoin later..
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:35 PM   #258
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karl j wrote
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try going into a bank presenting a GB20 note and asking for them to redeem the 20 pounds of gold.
Do you really think that a "pound" is meant to mean a pound of gold

A pound is simply a name for our currency

Do the Japanese go into a bank and ask for a yen of gold?
Do americans ask for a dollar of gold?


I know its wiki but I dont think there is any point looking deeper do you?

Quote:
because right now we have no other choice and everyone is happy to continue using them and they erronously beleive they are of actual value.
If we believe they have value then they do have value and thats good enough for me.

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Old 07-01-2010, 10:09 PM   #259
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I actually should have said silver not gold as it is my belief the term pound stirling came from the original old english to mean pound of stirling silver, seems the pound was worth a hell of alot at one time and yes i do think that you could ask for the pound on silver, i know you wont get it as the paper pound is not worth anything and silver is, i also never mentioned Yen or any other currency just pounds.
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Old 30-01-2010, 10:46 PM   #260
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Getting back to the original question re: mortgages - where is the consideration?

There is none.
Mortgage is done by deed.
Deeds do not require consideration.



Begs the questions;
  • why do banks have use deed and not contract?
  • why is 'no consideration' necessary?

I would love to be a fly on the wall if this was asked directly, next time pen was poised over mortgage documents
"Ummm ... just out of interest Mr Banker ... I see that you're providing me with a mortgage deed ... I'm not comfortable with that given you don't provide any consideration in this agreement ... and if you're not actually providing any consideration, then what exactly ARE you asking me to make payments on? Do you not have a mortgage contract we could both agree to?"
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