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Old 20-08-2008, 12:49 AM   #41
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Are you feeling that low level Freemasonry is a back scratchers club? You thought there would be something else? Why did you think this?
In terms of discovering the spiritual side of life, I think we have to do it on our own, not relying on a social circle, and I think it is more honarable to stand on your own two feet in all aspects of life. That is not you say someone couldant gain a lot from joining the Masons.
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Old 20-08-2008, 09:47 AM   #42
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Are you feeling that low level Freemasonry is a back scratchers club? You thought there would be something else? Why did you think this?
In terms of discovering the spiritual side of life, I think we have to do it on our own, not relying on a social circle, and I think it is more honarable to stand on your own two feet in all aspects of life. That is not you say someone couldant gain a lot from joining the Masons.
I share the same sentiments on that one.
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Old 20-08-2008, 12:37 PM   #43
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Are you feeling that low level Freemasonry is a back scratchers club? You thought there would be something else? Why did you think this?
All so-called "regular" Freemasonry today is a social club. I don't think it can even be called a "back scratchers club"; many Masons are much more prone to stab a fellow Mason in the back than to do so to a non-member. Masonic politics these days rarely rise above the level of swiftboating. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen a Mason swear at the altar to never speak evil of a brother behind his back, and 30 minutes later talk all kinds of shit about another Mason. There are Masons in the same Lodge that attend every meeting, but haven't spoken to one another in 20 years because they just can't stand each other.

This is what I meant when I said that I believe in Freemasonry's teachings...I'm just becoming strongly disillusioned with the fact that there are so few Masons interested in putting those teachings into practice.

You ask what I expected when I joined, and to be honest, I have to say I was a bit young and naive. I had read the works of the great Masonic philosophers and mystics, and wrongly assumed that most Masons would share their views. I expected those involved in the ritualistic work of initiating me into the degrees to be hierophants of the sacred knowledge. Instead, I very quickly discovered that they were all just going through the motions, and had no idea what the ritual meant or was trying to teach...and didn't care.

In most Masonic Lodges these days, the degree ceremonies of initiation are just a formality, and they hurry candidates through the ritual so they can get back to eating hot dogs and talking shit about each other.

And it's actually getting worse. Many Grand Lodges in the US are now giving "one day classes" in conjunction with the Scottish Rite and the Shrine so that you can "go all the way in a day". They take non-Masons in, and do all 3 degrees in the morning, making them "Master Masons". Then the Scottish Rite teams come in, and make them all "32° Masons" by the evening. Then the Shrine comes in, has a ceremonial, and hands everybody fezzes, then a banquet.

Then the candidates, perhaps a hundred or more, leave that night. That morning they were non-Masons. Now, they're all 32° Masons and Shriners, and are utterly confused, not having the slightest idea of what it was all about. Perhaps I'm a little slow, but for the life of me I can't figure out how that's supposed to make "good men better" as the modern Masonic mantra goes. The only thing I see being accomplished there is that they were able to collect a lot of initiation fees in one single pop.

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In terms of discovering the spiritual side of life, I think we have to do it on our own, not relying on a social circle, and I think it is more honarable to stand on your own two feet in all aspects of life. That is not you say someone couldant gain a lot from joining the Masons.
I agree that the journal is always a personal one. But throughout history, there have always been spiritual teachers, adepts. It was some of these who invented Freemasonry.

But today's Masonry ain't what it used to be. There are *some* Masons, a vocal minority, that do have mankind's best interest at heart, and sincerely seek spiritual knowledge, along with developing skills for teaching others. But most Masonic leadership does not share this view, and are even critical of it.
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Old 20-08-2008, 01:25 PM   #44
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Exclamation 100+ 32° Mason in 24 hrs!!!

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All so-called "regular" Freemasonry today is a social club. I don't think it can even be called a "back scratchers club"; many Masons are much more prone to stab a fellow Mason in the back than to do so to a non-member. Masonic politics these days rarely rise above the level of swiftboating. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen a Mason swear at the altar to never speak evil of a brother behind his back, and 30 minutes later talk all kinds of shit about another Mason. There are Masons in the same Lodge that attend every meeting, but haven't spoken to one another in 20 years because they just can't stand each other.

This is what I meant when I said that I believe in Freemasonry's teachings...I'm just becoming strongly disillusioned with the fact that there are so few Masons interested in putting those teachings into practice.

You ask what I expected when I joined, and to be honest, I have to say I was a bit young and naive. I had read the works of the great Masonic philosophers and mystics, and wrongly assumed that most Masons would share their views. I expected those involved in the ritualistic work of initiating me into the degrees to be hierophants of the sacred knowledge. Instead, I very quickly discovered that they were all just going through the motions, and had no idea what the ritual meant or was trying to teach...and didn't care.

In most Masonic Lodges these days, the degree ceremonies of initiation are just a formality, and they hurry candidates through the ritual so they can get back to eating hot dogs and talking shit about each other.

And it's actually getting worse. Many Grand Lodges in the US are now giving "one day classes" in conjunction with the Scottish Rite and the Shrine so that you can "go all the way in a day". They take non-Masons in, and do all 3 degrees in the morning, making them "Master Masons". Then the Scottish Rite teams come in, and make them all "32° Masons" by the evening. Then the Shrine comes in, has a ceremonial, and hands everybody fezzes, then a banquet.

Then the candidates, perhaps a hundred or more, leave that night. That morning they were non-Masons. Now, they're all 32° Masons and Shriners, and are utterly confused, not having the slightest idea of what it was all about. Perhaps I'm a little slow, but for the life of me I can't figure out how that's supposed to make "good men better" as the modern Masonic mantra goes. The only thing I see being accomplished there is that they were able to collect a lot of initiation fees in one single pop.

ROFL!!! Operation hide behind echelon barrier of 32° laymen.. There’s more enlightenment getting in a bar-fight.

That sux so much - it really is a 'Boys Club' lol Surely the infestation isn’t that consuming..



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I agree that the journal is always a personal one. But throughout history, there have always been spiritual teachers, adepts. It was some of these who invented Freemasonry.

But today's Masonry ain't what it used to be. There are *some* Masons, a vocal minority, that do have mankind's best interest at heart, and sincerely seek spiritual knowledge, along with developing skills for teaching others. But most Masonic leadership does not share this view, and are even critical of it.

Must be some good Brothers around.. Couldny find ya discussing this in ya FM Forum? Then again I can lazy..

Tis neva easy ay? Either-way - Good Luck Mate.
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Old 20-08-2008, 03:29 PM   #45
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Reading all this stuff I start to believe that I'm more Freemasonic than original masons (maybe a little more rose-crucian for my taste). I have initiated myself to occult mysteries, I know a lot of freemasonry stuff (thank to David Icke and Jury Lina, but I read also original texts from masonic websites), I know several freemasons, I know their symbolisms and rituals in their true alchemical meaning.

Now I know that they are interested more to materialism than myself.
The destiny has a very good sense of humor.
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Old 20-08-2008, 08:56 PM   #46
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Lightbulb Hmmm..

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Must be some good Brothers around.. Couldny find ya discussing this in ya FM Forum? Then again I can lazy..

Tis neva easy ay? Either-way - Good Luck Mate.
Meh!…ya may not even be apart of the FM Forum?.. Sorry if that’s an erroneous assumption.

http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/default.asp
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Old 20-08-2008, 10:20 PM   #47
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Thanks for that insight Thelonius, could you tell us more about what the Masonic spirtual leaders you mentioned realised?
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Old 21-08-2008, 12:29 PM   #48
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Thanks for that insight Thelonius, could you tell us more about what the Masonic spirtual leaders you mentioned realised?
If you mean the ones that influenced me to join, the major ones were Albert Mackey, Albert Pike, Joseph Fort Newton, Paul Foster Case, and to a lesser extent, Manly Palmer Hall and A.E. Waite. Before I became a Mason I had already developed an interest in the occult, especially Rosicrucianism, Hermeticism, and Gnosticism. My studies led me to those Masonic authors mentioned above, and I was impressed by their books.

If you're interested, most of their works can be read online at www.sacred-texts.org under the "Freemasonry" and "Rosicrucian" categories.
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Old 21-08-2008, 12:55 PM   #49
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Thing is though, it's not the dogma I have a problem with. I believe in the teachings of Freemasonry: social justice, universal brotherhood, democratic government by the people, religious freedom, separation of church and state, and equality.

But Masons are the ones that are supposed to be fighting *for* these things, not against them. I'm not saying that all Masons are hypocrites,...
if i was to offer you a glass of 99% pure organic fruit juice, and you discover it has 1% lethal poison in it...do you think you could survive the drink if you ignored the obious toxic thread?

that is the case with "secret societies"...becuase they are "societies with secrets" you cannot afford not to know about, simply because it involves the destruction of all the good that you initially thought you stood for. remember who Pike said Masons are really worshipping...
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Old 21-08-2008, 03:34 PM   #50
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if i was to offer you a glass of 99% pure organic fruit juice, and you discover it has 1% lethal poison in it...do you think you could survive the drink if you ignored the obious toxic thread?
If that were the case and your analogy holds, we couldn't really associate with anybody though.

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that is the case with "secret societies"...becuase they are "societies with secrets" you cannot afford not to know about, simply because it involves the destruction of all the good that you initially thought you stood for. remember who Pike said Masons are really worshipping...
Pike and I are almost identical from a religious perspective. Pike was a Gnostic and Hermetic Kabalist, as I am. One of my major gripes with Masonry is that it's gotten away from the spirituality that Pike believed was inherent in it.
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Old 21-08-2008, 05:27 PM   #51
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If that were the case and your analogy holds, we couldn't really associate with anybody though.
.
i understand. but people get duped into believing they are doing "good" thing when they join the Masons. when someone spends time studying truth about secret societies, you at least have a choice about selling your soul to the devil...and getting opened up to demonic influence without knowing it. i'm sure you've been on this forum long enough to know the truth.

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Pike and I are almost identical from a religious perspective. Pike was a Gnostic and Hermetic Kabalist, as I am. One of my major gripes with Masonry is that it's gotten away from the spirituality that Pike believed was inherent in it
but the fact stands...Freemasons worship a fallen angel.
now the choice comes where an individual must do something with his ego so that it would not hinder making what is initially a tough decision. a person will be besieged with all manners of questions about what to do next. uncertainty can cause major setbacks, but you must remember that this is the Universe of the God of True Light, and nighter is It joking about you leaving the Masons. for everything that does not support the functionality of Life...WILL be kicked out of here.

you seem to be a good man, then...do what is right, for real.
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Old 21-08-2008, 06:22 PM   #52
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Frustration.

I still strongly believe in the teachings and principles of Freemasonry, but lately the level of hypocrisy I've been experiencing is just getting too much.

I've devoted hundreds (if not thousands) of hours to Freemasonry. I'm a Past Master in all bodies, have served as district deputy, director of work, etc. So as much time as I've dedicated to it, I feel like I have the right to criticize.

1. I live in the southern USA. While most Grand Lodges recognize Prince Hall Masonry (predominantly black membership) the GL's here do not. The hypocrisy stems from the fact that when a man is being initiated into every degree of Masonry, he is told that all men are created equal. Yet, there are so many Masons who don't care anything about what Masonry teaches here, they just don't want to "recognize blacks".

2. Masonry is supposed to be non-sectarian, and says so in the ritual. But conservative Christians are hijacking Freemasonry for their own ends. In some Lodges non-Christians will not be initiated even though this is a serious breach of Masonic law and tradition.

3. The Scottish Rite recently "revised" (and in several cases completely re-wrote) its initiation degree rituals. My primary purpose in joining the Masons was to learn more about mysticism. However, most of the concepts based around mysticism and the occult have now been completely removed, apparently in an attempt to be politically correct and not offend Masons who are conservative Christians. Thus, the whole point of even having the rituals seems to have been lost, or close to it.

4. Freemasonry is supposed to be non-political. In the southern USA, however, the fraternity is being used by unscrupulous members to push the Republican Party's agenda. As a Liberal, I find this offensive.

5. Grand Lodges are still not holding the Shrine accountable for the crimes involving the so-called "Royal Order of Jesters", an exclusive club for Shriners. Members of this organization have been linked to sex crimes while acting in the name of the organization, and everyone seems to just want to ignore it.

The only reason I haven't already left is because my own Lodge has some really good guys in it, and are close friends. They aren't racists, and they're critical of the same things I am. It gives me hope that if we stick together, we can have a hand in changing it for the better.
Well whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck with it.

You seem honest and you seem to have integrity.

Personaly I think that racism, sex crimes, and sectarian black-balling justifies some industrial scale whistle blowing.

It might be a good idea to do some rituals for protection and then see how far you can go with exposing the bad guys.

Corruption in secret societies can become a nasty business.
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Old 21-08-2008, 06:59 PM   #53
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i understand. but people get duped into believing they are doing "good" thing when they join the Masons. when someone spends time studying truth about secret societies, you at least have a choice about selling your soul to the devil...and getting opened up to demonic influence without knowing it. i'm sure you've been on this forum long enough to know the truth.
Demonic influence, the devil, and all the other similar stuff are just things that people made up to either scare others into following them, or to deny personal responsibility by blaming everything on a scapegoat boogeyman.

My gripe with Masonry isn't that it's a "secret society". It's that it is largely composed of members who are hypocritical, practicing the opposite of what they preach.


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but the fact stands...Freemasons worship a fallen angel.
Angels, devils, devas, tooth fairies, it's all the same. They share the same origin: the human imagination.

Freemasonry, in its purity, stands for freedom of conscience in matters of religious belief. It vaguely recognizes the existence of a higher power but does not define it.

The problem here is that Masonry has been hijacked, and in the United States is now contolled, by rightwing Christian fundamentalists. I suppose this would be OK for one who is also a Christian fundamentalist, but I'm not, thus a source of another one of my problem's with the fraternity.

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you seem to be a good man, then...do what is right, for real.
Thanks!
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Old 21-08-2008, 07:38 PM   #54
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From what I have recently learned about sacred geometry and its foundational role in the universe, by analyzing the symbolism in masonry it seems the original order embraced this ancient knowledge and would reveal it to initiates. However, I think you are right in saying that masonry has been infiltrated to various degrees and is used for hypocritical political purposes.

As masonry apparently teaches, all men are equal. So just remember, you will always have all of humanity to discuss ancient knowledge, philosophy and much more with, which is a true brotherhood that embraces everyone. We're all capable of understanding the truth. and the truth is being revealed.

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Old 21-08-2008, 07:55 PM   #55
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Angels, devils, devas, tooth fairies, it's all the same. They share the same origin: the human imagination.
Why would angels be in the same category as tooth fairies, santa etc. ?
Have you experienced it, how can you tell it, and say human imagination? How would we know.. .I do agree on the devil though, god/spirit being there within all that is life, there is no room for a 100% literal devil.

To get back to this, maybe you should leave freemasonry or not. The real answer is within, if you can't get more information about a more spiritual side then go looking for that outside FM. You seem to have lots of irritation and complains against Freemasonry, so it might be better to leave and stop this needless energy waste?
What about the 33th degree, what's cooking in there?
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Old 21-08-2008, 08:08 PM   #56
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Thanks!
ur welcome.

i'll just make one reading suggestion before wishing you all the best. i'm sure it could provide some aid:



all the best with your new journey!

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Old 21-08-2008, 11:09 PM   #57
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Why would angels be in the same category as tooth fairies, santa etc. ?
Have you experienced it, how can you tell it, and say human imagination? How would we know.. .I do agree on the devil though, god/spirit being there within all that is life, there is no room for a 100% literal devil.

To get back to this, maybe you should leave freemasonry or not. The real answer is within, if you can't get more information about a more spiritual side then go looking for that outside FM. You seem to have lots of irritation and complains against Freemasonry, so it might be better to leave and stop this needless energy waste?
What about the 33th degree, what's cooking in there?
lol, good one dude... I would leave that shit if I were you Thelonious, those lower degrees are so fucking boring
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Old 22-08-2008, 12:38 PM   #58
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From what I have recently learned about sacred geometry and its foundational role in the universe, by analyzing the symbolism in masonry it seems the original order embraced this ancient knowledge and would reveal it to initiates.
That seems to be the case. Pythagoras, for example, is considered something of a "saint" in Masonry, and his having solved the 47th Problem of Euclid is an important element in the Master Mason's degree.

Unfortunately, there are historical inaccuracies weaved in it, in the Masonic tale. In the Masonic lecture, it is said that Pythagoras "was raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason". It is true that Pythagoras was an initiate to the Mysteries, but this statement would lead the new Mason to falsely believe that the actual organization of Freemasonry existed back then, when in fact it didn't.

Secondly, it is said in the Masonic lecture that Pythagoras exclaimed "Eureka!" after having solved the 47th Problem, and then sacrificed a hecatomb (hundred head of oxen). Both of these statements are incorrect. It was Archimedes (not Pythagoras) who exclaimed "Eureka!" after discovering the mathematical formula of volume while lying in his bath. And Pythagoras, being a strict vegan, was completely opposed to animal sacrifice and the consumption of animal flesh.

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As masonry apparently teaches, all men are equal. So just remember, you will always have all of humanity to discuss ancient knowledge, philosophy and much more with, which is a true brotherhood that embraces everyone. We're all capable of understanding the truth. and the truth is being revealed.
That's very true. I didn't much expect to learn a lot about the mysteries in Masonry that I didn't already know by having already studied them in depth. But I did expect to congregate with people of like minds. However, in all my experiences in Masonry, I've only met a couple of Masons who were seriously interested in those things. The rest are what I call "Fork and Knife degree"...they participate in Masonry mostly for the banquets and camaraderie.
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Old 22-08-2008, 12:44 PM   #59
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Why would angels be in the same category as tooth fairies, santa etc. ?
Because their existence is subjective instead of objective. They do not exist outside of our own imaginations.

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You seem to have lots of irritation and complains against Freemasonry, so it might be better to leave and stop this needless energy waste?
I think you may be right.

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What about the 33th degree, what's cooking in there?
Masonry is a loose confederation of different organizations. One of those is the Scottish Rite, which operates in a system of 33 degrees. The 33rd degree of that system is honorary, and makes the recipient an honorary member of the scottish Rite's governing board, called the Supreme Council. It is normally conferred in recognition of outstanding service.

Conspiracy theorists who oppose Masonry generally attach a lot of importance to the Scottish Rite 33rd degree. However, in reality, it's not much of a big deal. The degree itself is based on the old Templar legends.
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Old 22-08-2008, 03:06 PM   #60
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I am very pleased to read the sentences in this post. I think that you have taken a step toward individual growth by stepping out of a mass-think community. I couldn't care less if masonry is secretive or not but it is a place where doctrine is endorsed and that can't be a good thing since I think that doctrine in anyway can't be objective and supporting the evolution of ideas.

The mysteries and masonic writings can be researched outside of masonry I do believe (I did some research myself but can't say that all of it can be found outside of 'the box' so to speak). I heard that masonic libraries are open to anyone. Is that true? Many researchers like William Cooper just walked right in and read what they wanted if I remember correctly.

I wish you very well and hope that you don't leave us 'ickesters' alone in here. Even though some of our thoughts oppose each other you and some other masons effect on this site is very important and shouldn't be amiss. Good luck and good choice.

PS: I couldn't resist your signature. Screw Pike. I can't believe that a founder of the KKK could write even a letter about love. It's an utter paradox.
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