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Old 29-04-2015, 09:11 PM   #1101
lightgiver
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Arrow I am of the Sea

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Originally Posted by iamwhoam View Post
Last I read, you still believed in Jesus. Is that right?..

Origins of the Fish Head Hat..
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Nearly every religion of the world shows traces of astrological influence.. The Old Testament of the Jews, its writings overshadowed by Egyptian culture, is a mass of astrological and astronomical allegories.. Nearly all the mythology of Greece and Rome may be traced in star groups. Some writers are of the opinion that the original 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet were derived from groups of stars, and that the starry handwriting on the wall of the heavens referred to words spelt out, with fixed stars for consonants, and the planets, or luminaries, for vowels.. These, coming into ever-different combinations, spelt words which, when properly read, foretold future events..

Dagan is mentioned occasionally in early Sumerian texts but becomes prominent only in later Assyro-Babylonian inscriptions as a powerful and warlike protector, sometimes equated with Enlil..The fish form may be considered as a phallic symbol as seen in the story of the Egyptian grain god Osiris, whose penis was eaten by (conflated with) fish in the Nile after he was attacked by the Typhonic beast Set.. Likewise, in the tale depicting the origin of the constellation Capricornus, the Greek god of nature Pan became a fish from the waist down when he jumped into the same river after being attacked by Typhon...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta12.htm
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...61&postcount=2In a way, the world-view of the Party imposed itself most successfully on people incapable of understanding it..By lack of understanding they remained sane.. They simply swallowed everything, and what they swallowed did them no harm, because it left no residue behind, just as a grain of corn will pass undigested through the body of a bird...http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...=282995&page=3
I am who ham..



http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...196822&page=18

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Old 29-04-2015, 09:29 PM   #1102
iamawaveofthesea
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Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post
Passin the hat! lol

Also more on the penis of osiris....

egyptian obelisk right in the centre of the vaticans st marks square:



freemasonic obeslisk in washington:



Sun in the dome in vatican:



dome on capitol hill washington;



sun in freemasonry



peadophilia linked to vatican and also to freemasonry!

The vatican city is its own legal enclave seperate form its host country just as the district of colombia washington is its own legal enclave seperate from its host country as is the city of london 'square mile' home of the crown directorate

passing the hat!
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Old 29-04-2015, 09:40 PM   #1103
ksigmason
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Originally Posted by iamawaveofthesea View Post
The black lodge weaves into and through freemasonry and beyond into other organisations
What I'm saying is no such organization exists in Masonry. You can claim something all day long, but lets have some names of Masons who adhere to it. Let's have some proof of its existence.

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This is where you are going to struggle because you are still in the lower degrees and focussed on facts and figures and degrees and left brain minutiae
Then how do you know? From everything you've said, you possess very little knowledge on how Freemasonry is actually structured and what actually constitutes rank/position at the various levels and orders.

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You will probably have to self initiate to advance because i think they value you too much as an administrative gofer to initiate you any further...
Well, I've been invited to 3 more orders; one of them by invitation-only.

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in other words you are useful to them as you currently are ie locked in left brain thinking


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That's a pretty fudged rebuttal
No, I'm saying you are trying to justify your ignorance.

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Now look man....you are in the left brain degrees so really you should have the logical thinking thing down
You have no idea what degrees I'm in, so quit trying to make yourself sound like an expert when you clearly are not. You are talking out of your butt, plain and simple. For anyone who knows a sliver about Freemasonry, it is immensely clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.

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What i said is logical...let me walk you through it
No it is not. None of it was logical.

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Are you trying to tell me that no lodges around the world look to the grand lodge for guidance on issues?
Only the Lodges that fall underneath the UGLE, but there are over 175 Grand Lodges worldwide, not just one. Each Grand Lodge has its own Lodges to oversee and one Grand Lodge cannot interfere with another nor establish Lodges in another's jurisdiction.

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It's the people who communicate, the lodges are just vehicles, but they allow or facilitate the communication of those people
The same thing could be said of any group or organization.

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You are failing to see the mutliple overlapping and interlocking spheres of influence

So the think tanks the CFR and chatham house are one such link across the atlantic which binds freemasons together

I think the problem is perhaps that you are missing so many pieces of the puzzle that i am trying to get you to look at a picture that you can't see because you only have a few pieces; once you get enough pieces the picture emerges pretty clearly
No. I understand your conspiracy theory. I just find it stupid. Quit with the superiority complex. I've seen the conspiracy theories in ad nauseum. I find most of them baseless and founded upon paranoia, superstition, and hatred. Very few are founded in reality and facts.

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So you want to deny its validity?
Then let's see the document.

You guys are a lot of talk, but I never see a lot of proof. Let's see this infamous document and have out with it.

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Official freemasonry had to be seen to be cutting ties of course otherwise it would not be covering its tracks, but no doubt the P2 lodge members merged seemlessly back into freemasonry
Actually they were expelled.

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You're making me repeat myself now:

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/201...onry-of-crime/
And this is Masonic how?

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You share no information just repeat platitudes like a broken record
I repeat because you keep repeating the same shit over and over again.

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No it's more the fact that trotsky met with the new york banking fraternity in new york and also with b'nai brith from whom he received funds and also trained revolutionaries to accompany him back to russia to start a revolution
And B'Nai Brith is not Freemasonry; no matter how much you want it to be.

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You didn't listen to what i said did you?
No I read and digested what you said. I know it to be wrong.

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I said that the bavarian illuminati personnel went into book reading clubs and freemasonic lodges after they were shut down by the authorities
That is not what you said, but you what you right and what you say you intended seem to be two different things.

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Oh i see...you get to decide what is freemasonry do you?
No. The Landmarks do.

The fact is they don't follow the Ancient/Traditional Landmarks which defines actual Freemasonry.

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Also if you have a book of rituals and you perform them dilligently with other actors then you are performing an initiation ritual (a ritual dialogue with the subconscious mind through the use of theatre and symbols and props), but you might not be signed onto a lodge book
Well, that's out of left field for this particular discussion.

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Indeed there always is because that is the best way to control events...through dialectics
Now you're misconstruing the facts again because you have a preconceived (and false) notion of what Freemasonry does.

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You might want to read the following piece about the freemasonic involvement in the boston tea party: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/history/boston_tea_party.html
I'm familiar with the history:
Conspiracy theorists, whether anti-Masonic or not, assert that the Boston Tea Party was organized and carried out by the Freemasons. Is this true?

St. Andrew’s Lodge owned and met in the Green Dragon Tavern. St. Andrew's Lodge members included some well-known revolutionaries such as Paul Revere, John Hancock, and Joseph Warren.

On November 29th, the Tea Ship Dartmouth arrived which spurred the already riled Joseph Warren, leader of the Committee of Correspondence, to call a massive town hall meeting to discuss returning the tea to Britain. The minutes of St. Andrews Lodge for November 30th minutes state:
Lodge adjourned on account of the few Brothers present. Consignees of TEA took the Brethren’s time.
Then December 16th, the night of the Tea Party, came around and the minutes of the Lodge state:
Present [5 officers]. Lodge closed on account of the few members in attendance, until to-morrow evening.
It should be pointed out that this tavern was home to such groups as the North End Caucus, the Sons of Liberty, and the Boston Committee of Correspondence, whose membership was composed of Masons and non-Masons. It is likely that members of the Lodge did take part in the Tea Party, but many non-Masons also took part and probably planned the event. The fact that the tavern was owned by the Mason is incidental. This event occurred at a time when the Colonists were tired of the British Crown sudden interest in affairs of the American colonies.

For too long the colonists lived relatively isolated from Great Britain and the Crown practiced essentially "salutary negligence" which forced the colonists to govern themselves. Until the time of the wars of the kings of France and England, the British Crown and Parliament never levied taxes upon the colonies. Once the Crown was bankrupt it attempted to pull revenue from the colonies to reimburse the costs of war. Through various passed laws and colonist reactions, we see a handful of men send a powerful message to the Crown. This act would lead to the Coercive and Intolerable Acts that would further strip long held colonist power and degrade the relationship that led to the Revolutionary War.

http://www.travelingtemplar.com/2012...ed-states.html
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I think you have an idea in your mind of what you'd like freemasonry to stand for and how it works but unfortunately the people at the top have different ideas and that is why reality does not match upto to your wishes
As if you knew what the leadership of Freemasonry wants or how they operate.

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No they are physically in there in the same buildings even

They also have field lodges during deployment
This is something I could explain to you and you won't get it.

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Stop misquoting and instead try reading what people actually say
I did. Maybe you should learn to write better. Your grammar, sentence structure, and punctuation are wanting. I'm not perfect by any means, but your sentences often lead to confusion it seems.

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Is that you trying to dodge a bullet but at the same time catching it square between your teeth?
That's me dismissing your notion. I don't have to dodge when your gun has no bullets in it to hit me with.

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It's all occultism and the secret society network that weaves through freemasonry controls the federal reserve
Of course.

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It's compartmentalised like the military so you are on a need to know basis and you don't need to know because you are admin
Actually it's nothing like the military, but thanks for trying.

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When you are sharing your thoughts with the lodge you are being assessed...your character is being assessed
By whom? Who is this individual that is in the Lodge assessing? What curriculum do we read?

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Most organisations don't use magicakal symbols and seek to recruit all the most influential people in society
We don't recruit.

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Not really....this is how it works
I'm sure in your mind you really think so.

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Society has a right to not be subverted by powerful magical orders who fill their ranks with peadophiles
None of which is the goal of Freemasonry nor can you use fear to usurp our rights.

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No its absolutely fact...snowden told us that they are spying on us and provided the proof
I wasn't talking about the spying wholly. I'm sure they are spying on the public, but the fact you think their logos are "Masonic".

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No i'm standing with the biggest group: humanity
So you say, but I see a lot of dividing from you. Freemasonry isn't against humanity either.

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You have set yourself apart in a little club: freemasonry
Why? You have given me no reason why I should not continue.

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And yet in all our discussions it is always me giving you the information lol
Yeah, bad information.

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You don't even listen to them and you misquote them and you roll your eyes...you have terrible attitude
Only to liars.
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Old 29-04-2015, 09:52 PM   #1104
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Originally Posted by iamawaveofthesea View Post
It's because freemasonry is just one compartment of the secret society network
So you keep saying.

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No as i said what bugs me is magical orders recruiting peadophiles and then subverting society whilst claiming to be about charity
Just a lot of words from all I see, but then again a tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.

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The point is that the 'fraternity' extends beyond your lodge
I never said otherwise, but I'm asking how you know. You speak of just the Lodge then say I'm not high enough to know, but then at the same time you think you're in the know. That cake don't bake.

I experience with a multitude of Lodges and various organizations that actually make up Freemasonry. I'm saying you don't so you wouldn't be in the know yourself. Your hubris is unfounded.

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And yet it provides the perfect vehicles for the black lodge who will support, elevate and cover for their fellows
Whatever makes you sleep at night.

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oh then they can't be true
They need facts to show if they are or not. Bring me proof, not just accusations from questionable sources.

I've never said the government is perfect...in fact, I'm very critical of governments, but I don't just go with accusations for the sake of being anti-government. That is irrational.

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there is nothing unclear about it, you are just not accurate in your reading


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Oh they just made it up did they? then why were they not sued for making stuff up about the police?
Well, I'm not taking their word for it without something substantive. Trust is earned, not given.

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can i ask you something....because i think this will provide a moment of light relief.....do you think they designed and then built a stone pine cone with a peacock on either side because they had smoked too much pot that day and thought it would be funny to make a giant stone pine cone and then flank it with two random birds

or

do you think the architecture is concealing symbolism with an underlying meaning to the cognoscenti? (ie those able to look beyond the concrete)
Thanks for not answering the question.
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Old 29-04-2015, 10:03 PM   #1105
lightgiver
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Lightbulb Passin the Bride

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Originally Posted by iamawaveofthesea View Post
Passin the hat! lol

peadophilia linked to vatican and also to freemasonry!

The vatican city is its own legal enclave seperate form its host country just as the district of colombia washington is its own legal enclave seperate from its host country as is the city of london 'square mile' home of the crown directorate

passing the hat!

Islam in Action: Shaykh Explains Child Marriage ..
Quote:
Quran 65:4 "And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him."..
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...&postcount=308I'm just afraid that I may not have the strength to do this job.. After you leave me tonight, Jimmy, I am going to pray.. I am going to pray that God will help me,that he will give me the strength and the guidance to do this job and to do it right.. I hope that you will pray for me, too, Jimmy..Dear Sallie:.I am very sorry you have a cold and you are in bed..I played with Mary today for a little while..I hope by tomorrow you will be able to be up...http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...&postcount=311
http://quran.com/65/4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...&postcount=126

Last edited by lightgiver; 29-04-2015 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 29-04-2015, 10:42 PM   #1106
iamawaveofthesea
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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
What I'm saying is no such organization exists in Masonry. You can claim something all day long, but lets have some names of Masons who adhere to it. Let's have some proof of its existence.
They don't call themselves that dufus they operate through many front organisations one of which is freemasonry

They are often called the 'shadow government' and their activities were pulled into the light of the day on a much viewed TV documentary in which they called themselves 'the enterprise'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28K2CO-khdY

here's politician larry mcdonald warning about their plans to subvert the US; he later died in a plane shootdown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BPhYEFGaGM

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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Then how do you know? From everything you've said, you possess very little knowledge on how Freemasonry is actually structured and what actually constitutes rank/position at the various levels and orders.
I avoid the left brain trappings as far as possible, keeping the words of that brethren burns in my head:

''for all that and all that,
his ribbon'd star and all that,
the man of independent mind,
he looks and laughs at all that''

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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Well, I've been invited to 3 more orders; one of them by invitation-only.
of course you have you fill a seat well and you administer well and most importantly you don't ask awkward questions....you are a perfect drone

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post



No, I'm saying you are trying to justify your ignorance.


You have no idea what degrees I'm in, so quit trying to make yourself sound like an expert when you clearly are not. You are talking out of your butt, plain and simple. For anyone who knows a sliver about Freemasonry, it is immensely clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.


No it is not. None of it was logical.


Only the Lodges that fall underneath the UGLE, but there are over 175 Grand Lodges worldwide, not just one. Each Grand Lodge has its own Lodges to oversee and one Grand Lodge cannot interfere with another nor establish Lodges in another's jurisdiction.
So i'm right in that other lodges look to them as an authority

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
The same thing could be said of any group or organization.
Not all organisations are magical orders who recruit peadophiles and try and subvert society

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
No. I understand your conspiracy theory. I just find it stupid. Quit with the superiority complex. I've seen the conspiracy theories in ad nauseum. I find most of them baseless and founded upon paranoia, superstition, and hatred. Very few are founded in reality and facts.
Well you haven't heard everything there is to say yet

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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Then let's see the document.You guys are a lot of talk, but I never see a lot of proof. Let's see this infamous document and have out with it.
Its a straight forward question: do you believe the document exists or do you think it has been made up?

because if you believe it exists then stop hiding behind bluster

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tiberius

Operation Tiberius was an official internal Metropolitan Police investigation, commissioned in October 2001, written in 2002, but leaked to The Independent newspaper in 2014. The Metropolitan Police have acknowledged it was born of other investigations, but describe it as a new strategic approach to corruption, rather than a single operation.[1] The Parliamentary Home Affairs Committee has published a redacted copy of a summary of the investigation, with a lengthy annexe detailing other earlier corruption investigations, especially Operation Russell.[2][3] It investigated the charge that certain "organized criminals" were able to infiltrate Scotland Yard by bribery.[4] 19 former and 42 then serving officers were investigated for alleged corruption.[4] It has been claimed that the Metropolitan Police suffered “endemic corruption” and given the small number of convictions, doubt has been expressed over whether this police force has extirpated the problem.

redacted report: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...eport.pdf.html

why would they redact the report and suppress it if they have nothing to hide?

see also:

operation othona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Othona

and

Operation riverside: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...n-8669148.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Actually they were expelled.
documentary evidence please to show that none of them ever re-entered freemasonry or continued to exert influence in anyway through freemasonry

Come on big mouth prove it


Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
And this is Masonic how?
read the article


Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
I repeat because you keep repeating the same shit over and over again.

And B'Nai Brith is not Freemasonry; no matter how much you want it to be.
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/bnaibrith.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
No I read and digested what you said. I know it to be wrong.


That is not what you said, but you what you right and what you say you intended seem to be two different things.


No. The Landmarks do.

The fact is they don't follow the Ancient/Traditional Landmarks which defines actual Freemasonry.


Well, that's out of left field for this particular discussion.


Now you're misconstruing the facts again because you have a preconceived (and false) notion of what Freemasonry does.


I'm familiar with the history:
Conspiracy theorists, whether anti-Masonic or not, assert that the Boston Tea Party was organized and carried out by the Freemasons. Is this true?

St. Andrew’s Lodge owned and met in the Green Dragon Tavern. St. Andrew's Lodge members included some well-known revolutionaries such as Paul Revere, John Hancock, and Joseph Warren.

On November 29th, the Tea Ship Dartmouth arrived which spurred the already riled Joseph Warren, leader of the Committee of Correspondence, to call a massive town hall meeting to discuss returning the tea to Britain. The minutes of St. Andrews Lodge for November 30th minutes state:
Lodge adjourned on account of the few Brothers present. Consignees of TEA took the Brethren’s time.
Then December 16th, the night of the Tea Party, came around and the minutes of the Lodge state:
Present [5 officers]. Lodge closed on account of the few members in attendance, until to-morrow evening.
It should be pointed out that this tavern was home to such groups as the North End Caucus, the Sons of Liberty, and the Boston Committee of Correspondence, whose membership was composed of Masons and non-Masons. It is likely that members of the Lodge did take part in the Tea Party, but many non-Masons also took part and probably planned the event. The fact that the tavern was owned by the Mason is incidental. This event occurred at a time when the Colonists were tired of the British Crown sudden interest in affairs of the American colonies.

For too long the colonists lived relatively isolated from Great Britain and the Crown practiced essentially "salutary negligence" which forced the colonists to govern themselves. Until the time of the wars of the kings of France and England, the British Crown and Parliament never levied taxes upon the colonies. Once the Crown was bankrupt it attempted to pull revenue from the colonies to reimburse the costs of war. Through various passed laws and colonist reactions, we see a handful of men send a powerful message to the Crown. This act would lead to the Coercive and Intolerable Acts that would further strip long held colonist power and degrade the relationship that led to the Revolutionary War.

http://www.travelingtemplar.com/2012...ed-states.html
and yet there they are...freemasons at the heart of the troubles as they always are

wriggle and squirm all you like but there they are
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post

As if you knew what the leadership of Freemasonry wants or how they operate.
go on give me a laugh...tell me what they want and how they operate

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
This is something I could explain to you and you won't get it.


I did. Maybe you should learn to write better. Your grammar, sentence structure, and punctuation are wanting. I'm not perfect by any means, but your sentences often lead to confusion it seems.


That's me dismissing your notion. I don't have to dodge when your gun has no bullets in it to hit me with.
no bullets!

Just endless witnesses saying freemasons are involved in corruption, child abuse and cover ups! No bullets!

man you are a joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Of course.


Actually it's nothing like the military, but thanks for trying.
I said they are both hierarchical

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
By whom? Who is this individual that is in the Lodge assessing? What curriculum do we read?
the other brethren of the lodge are listening and the ones in the know are assessing you

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
We don't recruit.
oh yes you do, often from father to son

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
I'm sure in your mind you really think so.


None of which is the goal of Freemasonry nor can you use fear to usurp our rights.


I wasn't talking about the spying wholly. I'm sure they are spying on the public, but the fact you think their logos are "Masonic".
no i think the ranks of freemasonry are filled with intelligence officers and police who abuse kids and/or cover up for people who do

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
So you say, but I see a lot of dividing from you. Freemasonry isn't against humanity either.
https://richardrowell.wordpress.com/...of-rothschild/

The Federal Reserve Cartel: Part II: The Freemason BUS & The House of Rothschild by Dean Henderson


Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Why? You have given me no reason why I should not continue.


Yeah, bad information.


Only to liars.
oh i think its very clear to anyone reading this thread who the liar is
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Old 29-04-2015, 10:43 PM   #1107
iamawaveofthesea
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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
So you keep saying.


Just a lot of words from all I see, but then again a tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny.


I never said otherwise, but I'm asking how you know. You speak of just the Lodge then say I'm not high enough to know, but then at the same time you think you're in the know. That cake don't bake.

I experience with a multitude of Lodges and various organizations that actually make up Freemasonry. I'm saying you don't so you wouldn't be in the know yourself. Your hubris is unfounded.


Whatever makes you sleep at night.


They need facts to show if they are or not. Bring me proof, not just accusations from questionable sources.

I've never said the government is perfect...in fact, I'm very critical of governments, but I don't just go with accusations for the sake of being anti-government. That is irrational.





Well, I'm not taking their word for it without something substantive. Trust is earned, not given.


Thanks for not answering the question.
earn some trust then and answer the question i asked you

come on genius tell me why they built a stone pinecone with two peacocks on either side lol

man you are a joke
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Last edited by iamawaveofthesea; 29-04-2015 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 29-04-2015, 10:49 PM   #1108
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Default

http://leaksource.info/2014/01/16/le...om-freemasons/

01/09-13/2014

Tom Harper/TheIndependent (1) (2) (3) (4):

The entire criminal justice system was infiltrated by organised crime gangs, according to a secret Scotland Yard report leaked to The Independent. Organised criminals were able to infiltrate Scotland Yard “at will” by bribing corrupt officers, according to the explosive report. The Metropolitan Police file dubbed Operation Tiberius, written in 2002, found Britain’s biggest force suffered “endemic corruption” at the time.

The Tiberius report, produced by a team led by the former Met assistant commissioner Andy Hayman, paints a shocking picture of security at the time inside Scotland Yard, which had responsibility for the UK’s counter-terror operations.

Operation Tiberius found that men suspected of being Britain’s most notorious criminals had compromised multiple agencies, including HM Revenue & Customs, the Crown Prosecution Service, the City of London Police and the Prison Service, as well as pillars of the criminal justice system including juries and the legal profession.

The strategic intelligence scoping exercise – “ratified by the most senior management” at the Met – found murder investigations had been infiltrated and sensitive intelligence regarding other organised crime investigations had been leaked, allowing the offenders to escape justice. It uncovered jurors being bought off or threatened to return not-guilty verdicts; corrupt individuals working for HMRC, both in the UK and overseas; and “get out of jail free cards” being bought for £50,000.

Operation Tiberius concluded that syndicates such as the notorious Adams family and the gang led by David Hunt had bribed scores of former and then-serving detectives to access confidential databases; obtain live intelligence on criminal investigations; provide specialist knowledge of surveillance, technical deployment and undercover techniques to help evade prosecution; and even take part in criminal acts such as mass drug importation and money laundering.

Tiberius identified 80 corrupt individuals with links to the police, including 42 then-serving officers and 19 former detectives. Research conducted by The Independent suggests that only a tiny number of the officers named as corrupt have been convicted.

Working in secret, the authors of Tiberius, which was compiled from intelligence sources including covert police informants, live telephone intercepts, briefings from the security services and thousands of historical files, came to the desperate conclusion: “Organised crime is currently able to infiltrate the MPS at will … Quite how much more damage could be done is difficult to imagine.”

The report states that the infiltration made it almost impossible for police and prosecutors to successfully pursue the organised gangs that police suspected controlled much of the criminal underworld.

One senior investigating officer interviewed by the inquiry said at the time: “I feel that… I cannot carry out an ethical murder investigation without the fear of it being compromised.”

Alastair Morgan, whose brother Daniel was murdered in 1987 before he could expose links between Met officers and organised crime, told The Independent: “Despite all the protestations by police that things have changed since the ‘bad old days’, this doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. The police have no desire to tackle this. It would be too damaging to have it all aired in open court. The Met is a highly political organisation.”

A former senior officer, who recently retired from Scotland Yard, told The Independent: “Nothing has changed. The Met is still every bit as corrupt as it was back then.”

Asked to comment on the Tiberius report, a spokesman for Scotland Yard said: “The Metropolitan Police Service will not tolerate any behaviour by our officers and staff which could damage the trust placed in police by the public. We are determined to pursue corruption in all its forms and with all possible vigour. The dedicated Anti-Corruption Command, part of the Met’s Directorate of Professional Standards, proactively investigates any allegations or intelligence relating to either corrupt police officers and staff [or] those that may seek to corrupt our officers’ staff. There is no complacency in the Met’s determination to succeed in this task.”

How Gangs Used the Freemasons to Corrupt Police

Secret networks of Freemasons have been used by organised crime gangs to corrupt the criminal justice system, according to the leaked report.

Operation Tiberius found underworld syndicates used their contacts in the controversial brotherhood to “recruit corrupted officers” inside Scotland Yard, and concluded it was one of “the most difficult aspects of organised crime corruption to proof against”.

Famous for its secret handshakes, Freemasonry has long been suspected of having members who work in the criminal justice system – notably the judiciary and the police. The political establishment and much of the media often dismiss such ideas as the work of conspiracy theorists. However, Operation Tiberius is the second secret police report revealed by The Independent in the last six months to highlight the possible issue.

Project Riverside, a 2008 report on the rogue private investigations industry by the Serious Organised Crime Agency, also claimed criminals attempt to corrupt police officers through Freemason members in a bid to further their interests.

Concerns over the influence of Freemasons on the criminal justice system in 1998 led former Home Secretary Jack Straw to order that all police officers and judges should declare membership of the organisation. However, ten of Britain’s 43 police forces refused to take part and the policy was dropped under threat of legal action.

In England and Wales, the Grand Master of the Freemasons is Prince Edward, Duke of Kent. The United Grand Lodge of England declined to comment last night.

Corruption Uncovered by Operation Tiberius

– Some relationships between Met officers and the criminal underworld were so close that in one case named police officers were identified as co-owning properties and even racehorses with a man suspected of being one of Britain’s most hardened gangsters.

– In one shocking case, a police statement taken from a highly sensitive witness was found in the safe of a nightclub controlled by the Adams family – described by Operation Tiberius as the “major crime family in north London”. The report stated the named witness was helping police try to solve the murder of Michael Olymbious, who the police believed had been killed after losing £1.5m of ecstasy pills owned by the syndicate.

– Tiberius also found a secret informant – codenamed “Lee Paul” – providing intelligence on the Adams family and the corrupt police in its pay to his handler at the Met, who appears to have been a man of integrity. However, Paul’s highly sensitive role was later uncovered by other officers and his activities became more widely known, causing uproar among the corrupt elements inside the Yard. But far from seeing this as evidence that the police were finally on to them, one rogue detective inspector was so unperturbed that he felt confident enough to brazenly threaten one of Paul’s handlers with reprisals.

– Tiberius also revealed the Met was concerned at the time with a national newspaper story on the ability of the Adams family to escape the law by penetrating the criminal justice system. In 1998, police appeared to have finally made a breakthrough when Tommy Adams was jailed for more than seven years for importing cannabis. However, the article cited by Tiberius stated that the “only reason the Adams family had allowed the prosecution to succeed and had not resorted to bribery or intimidation to thwart it, was because the other brothers wanted to teach Tommy a lesson for getting involved in crimes they had not authorised”. The article concluded: “Witnesses terrified into silence, dodgy jurors, bent lawyers, bent policemen and bent CPS clerks – all are part of the same cancer eating away at justice. A cure for the malady will not be easy to come by. Perhaps we should begin by acknowledging that the patient is sick.” Tiberius disclosed that the Met interviewed the journalist who wrote the story after the murder of Solly Nahome, a money launderer credited as the “brains” behind the Adams’ criminal empire. The reporter stated one of her journalistic sources on the family was a corrupt police officer but did not disclose who it was.

– One corrupt detective chief inspector who was identified by Tiberius sold his car to a known criminal, who was also a protected informant. The deal had been arranged by another corrupt officer – the informant’s handler – who was identified by Tiberius as “raping, blackmailing and encouraging the informant to facilitate the importation of heroin”. The report does not identify any action taken by the Met against the serving officer for his behaviour.

– Kenneth Beagle, thought to have been killed by members of a named organised crime syndicate over a “failed drug importation”. Tiberius names a former Met police officer whom it says “has always been considered to be one of the most corrupt officers serving in the MPS”. The report claims this former officer contacted his “good friend”, a detective sergeant, on the investigating team whom Tiberius says “had previously been the subject of at least three corruption inquiries” yet was allowed to work on a gangland murder investigation. For reasons that are unclear, the Met formally “authorised” the meeting between the pair which “legitimised the access into the murder inquiry”. Tiberius notes that “shortly after the meeting” the alleged organised crime boss “knew that the investigation team considered him a suspect”.

– A suspected drug dealer who fled to Spain was one of the prime suspects for the murder of Ricky Rayner in 2001 and asked a man whom police suspected of leading a drug dealing syndicate to check whether he was still wanted in the UK. Within days, this man was able to find out the status of his associate following telephone contact with a police officer. The report stated a Police National Computer check was obtained from Bethnal Green police station. The suspected gangster was able to give the suspect the “all clear”, apparently leading to his return to Britain. Tiberius also identified “regular contact” between another suspected corrupt detective and a senior member of the investigation into the murder. Again, the investigating officer had previously been identified as possibly corrupt – yet had never been prosecuted and was put in charge of a sensitive investigation.

– In one case identified by Tiberius, a leading criminal was acquitted of importing cannabis after he allegedly “bought” members of the jury hearing his case. A named police officer “was involved in some way or another”, according to the report.

– The trial of a man who was charged with drug trafficking offences collapsed after the disappearance of two crucial surveillance logs which, the report claims, were removed by two detective sergeants. Tiberius said each defendant “paid £15,000 into a fund to pay for the police officers to destroy the logs”. Analysis of phone records by Tiberius showed contact between one of the detective sergeants and a named former detective superintendent – who was in charge of the original anti-corruption investigation into the missing logs.

– On another occasion, when detectives raided the home of a “high-echelon criminal” believed by police to be involved in the “importation and distribution of controlled drugs” in east London, they found a five-page computerised printout that, it is claimed, indicated two serving Met police officers were in his pay. During the inquiry, an investigating officer was approached by a corrupt colleague who had worked out the target and told him not to pursue the suspected drug dealer as he was a “nice fella” and was expecting a big “security contract”. He stated: “If you don’t touch him he’ll help you.” One year later Essex Police began a separate inquiry into the same suspected drug dealer after receiving intelligence that he was importing drugs and distributing them in nightclubs. The investigation began examining the stabbing of a man at a club in February 2001 – an attack that was thought to be linked to the alleged drug dealer. According to the report, the same corrupt police officer then called the investigating Essex officer, who recalled: “He told me that bad people go to the club and asked if I knew who they were.” Tiberius noted the corrupt police officer also had an “ongoing sexual relationship with a female drug supplier” and was accessing police intelligence on her behalf.

– Another case of corruption beyond the Met, identified by Tiberius, included intelligence of alleged foul play within HMRC, which is supposed to lead the UK’s fight against white-collar crime such as money laundering. In 2000, according to Tiberius, a key police informant was secretly helping Scotland Yard with an investigation into the importation of £10m of heroin by a Turkish gang in north London. The deal went wrong, the informant was tortured in a cellar and “an attempt was made to sever his fingers with a pair of garden shears”. His associate was also attacked and had “three fingers chopped off with a machete”. The henchman Tiberius alleged had committed the assaults was the son of a named Met detective, who repeatedly tried to impede police inquiries into the case, according to Tiberius. He also had a corrupt relationship with a named detective sergeant then based in Marylebone police station who is suspected to have “organised cheque frauds”. Research conducted by The Independent suggests that none of the three men has ever been prosecuted. The Turkish drug dealer was later convicted and told police he was an HMRC informant. He said he knew of “corrupt contacts within the police” and had a Cyprus-based customs officer as a handler who “took money off him”.

– One of the few successful investigations reviewed by Tiberius was Operation Greyhound, a long-running inquiry that found that two detectives had helped a known criminal hunt a money-launderer over a £600,000 debt. Martin Morgan and Declan Costello were paid £50,000 for helping Robert Kean, a builder with a string of previous convictions, find his former business associate, Andrew Smith. During their trial in 2002, the Old Bailey heard that Kean and another criminal, Carl Wood, spoke of torturing Smith and putting his body in a car crusher if he could not pay his debt. At the heart of the scandal was the friendship of Morgan and Kean, a suspected drugs dealer. When Kean wanted to find Smith, he turned to Morgan, who used intelligence databases available to Met detectives to try to track down and entrap him. Kean said Morgan “was good at his job” and would be paid “50gs”– £50,000 – to act as his bounty hunter. Morgan, Kean and Wood pleaded guilty to conspiring to unlawfully and injuriously imprison a man and to detain him against his will. Costello plead guilty to conspiracy to assault, causing actual bodily harm.
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Old 29-04-2015, 10:58 PM   #1109
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always always masons at the heart of trouble

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...ly.theobserver
Who killed Calvi?
Reopening the inquiry into the 'suicide' of 'God's banker' has exposed links with the mafia, masons and Vatican fraud, writes Nick Mathiason
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• Nick Mathiason

• The Observer, Sunday 7 December 2003
The murdered man's 37-year-old son had just two questions: 'Tell me what you can do and how much will it cost?' It was the autumn of 1991 and New York investigator Jeff Katz had flown to the US city to meet the dead man's son, Carlo Calvi. It turned out that Katz could do quite a lot.
Roberto Calvi, known as God's banker because of his close ties to the Vatican, was found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge, central London, with a length of orange rope woven into a lover's knot around his neck. He was weighed down by bricks and found with £15,000 in cash in his pockets.
Calvi's death, in June 1982, was the moment the Italian underworld went overground in London. 'If you're going to take this case on it'll be like dancing in the mouth of wolves,' a secret service agent told Katz in Rome.
Katz was bitten. 'It was a fascinating case,' he said in London last week. 'It involved the mafia, the Vatican, P2 [a powerful masonic group]. It had 90 per cent of my time for two years so I was really stuck into it.' The painstaking work, carried out by the New York investigator and 30 others in the early 1990s, is now leading tantalisingly closer to the arrest of key figures in Britain and the recovery of tens of millions of pounds in what was one of the 20th century's most intriguing murders and financial scandals. The affair saw Italy's biggest private bank collapse with debts of $1.4 billion in 1982.
The City of London police working on the case today describe a mosaic of vicious mafia dons, and assets traced all over the world.
But it seems there are plenty of people who still do not want the secrets which supposedly died with Calvi 21 years ago to come to light. The Italian detective leading the investigation, Luca Tescaroli, recently received a hand-delivered letter containing black powder and two 12-volt batteries with a note saying: 'This is an ultimatum. Stop.'
But it is too late now. Evidence has come to light which is leading the investigation to four UK suspects who helped bring about Calvi's downfall. Three months after Calvi's death, a small-time drug dealer, Sergio Vaccari, was stabbed in the face, neck and chest more than 15 times. At the time the City of London police saw no link with Calvi. But Vaccari had possession of masonic papers. And Katz tracked down Vaccari's former landlord, who, he learned, had demanded that his tenant left his flat. Vaccari agreed on condition that the landlord found him another home. The landlord presented two options, one of which Vaccari picked. A while later Vaccari wanted details from the landlord of the other place; that flat was in Chelsea Cloisters, the place Calvi stayed in just before he died.
'From there we began to make other linkages between Vaccari and the Calvi entourage,' said Katz.
The new City of London investigation, led by Detective Superintendent Trevor Smith, drew on a detailed reconstruction of the last hours of Calvi's life. The reconstruction, devised by Katz and a forensic expert, Angela Gallop, established conclusively that Calvi was murdered. The scaffolding that Calvi was hung from, was assembled again, and a man of Calvis's height and weight climbed along it. Pressure from such weight would have left rust on Calvi's shoes, but forensic research found no rust stuck to his footwear.
It was decided that Calvi could not have committed suicide, as was first suggested by the City of London police after an investigation that lasted no more than a week. It has long been suggested that it was a masonic influence that led the City police to issue this conclusion, a claim denied by the police.
For Carlo it was not just a case of proving that his father was murdered. A suicide verdict would have meant that the son could not have got access to the $10m life insurance payout. A second inquest produced an open verdict, which still did not satisfy the insurers. When subsequent forensic work did satisfy them that Calvi had not died by his own hand, his bank's creditors - owed $1.4bn - were waiting. Touche Ross, the liquidator, took a significant slice.
Calvi was a haunted man as he entered his final days. As chairman of Banco Ambrosiano, he was in charge of an organisation that laundered money made largely from the heroin trade for the mafia. He knew the dark financial secrets of the Vatican. Letters of comfort to offshore companies which he created were signed by Archbishop Marcinkus, a Chicago-born prelate and key Vatican insider who has never faced an interview or charges.
But more ominously Calvi had intimate knowledge of regular payments made by large Italian companies to political parties. He should have known: the payments went through his bank.
Calvi was on the point of going to prison for violating exchange controls. It was Michele Sindona, once Calvi's mentor, who ratted on him. Calvi had one chance to avert humiliation. Tell the world what he knew. It was this which led to his death, Katz believes.
'There was a point at which he threatened that if the Vatican and other people who he had been working with did not get him off the hook for the four years in jail for currency exchange violations, he was going to talk,' Katz argues. 'It would have landed the heads of all the major corporations in jail and it would have ended up probably with the indictment of political leaders.'
No mafia killing in London could happen unless it were ordered by Francesco di Carlo. He was one of the first of the Cosa Nostra to realise the need to 'clean' criminal profits through the financial system. Now serving 25 years for heroin trafficking, in 1967 he had met Queen Elizabeth in Italy.
For many years it was assumed that the Calvi mystery would fade into the mists of time. But the City of London police have now established a link between di Carlo and Sergio Vaccari. And the mists are clearing.
Banking scandal
It was one of the biggest and most intriguing financial scandals of the last century.
Weeks after Roberto Calvi's murder in June 1982, the Italian bank he chaired, Banco Ambrosiano, went under with a then staggering $1.4 billion debt.
Mafia, Freemasons and the Vatican are implicated in a tale of drug trafficking, money laundering and tortuous financing spanning the world.
Many believe the death of Pope John Paul I in 1978, just 33 days after his election, happened because he wanted to break the murky links between what was then Italy's largest private bank and the Vatican.
The scandal touched financial institutions around the world and the Italian political elite.
Calvi's bank built its empire in close association with the Vatican bank, the Institute for Religious Works. This was headed by Archbishop Paul Marcinkus from Chicago. While the Vatican never accepted culpability in the collapse of Ambrosiano, it stumped up $250m to creditors. Some believe Marcinkus may yet face trial now a court case in Italy is progressing.
One of the most influential figures in the Calvi story was Licio Gelli, now 84. He was Grand Master of the P2 masonic lodge of which Silvio Berlusconi was once a member. Gelli was sentenced to 12 years for fraud in connection with the collapse of Calvi's bank and is under house arrest.
Calvi's mentor Michele Sindona was friends with former US President Richard Nixon. Sindona died in prison in 1986 poisoned by coffee laced with cyanide.
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Old 29-04-2015, 11:02 PM   #1110
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Bristol & Somerset Freemasonry: child pornography, crime, policing & probity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd2lu0k97QU
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Old 29-04-2015, 11:05 PM   #1111
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The role of freemasons in the police

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gemu_di8TE
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Old 30-04-2015, 02:52 AM   #1112
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Originally Posted by iamawaveofthesea View Post
Freemasons in the police leading the attack on David Cameron's riot response
I couldn't care less.

The British "witch-hunts" have shown me how wacko some of you are.

The fact is that we Masons will continue to meet as we always have. Will there be some bad Masons? Sure. Do they represent the entirety of the fraternity? No. Should we abhor the bad Masons? Yes. Without question. Am I going to condemn someone simply because of a news article or accusation without any concrete evidence? No.

Quote:
The inquiry by the Home Affairs Select Committee in 1998 called for a public register of police officers who joined the Freemasons, although in the end the then Labour government proposed that officers could make voluntary disclosures about their membership. Few did.
A fascist and discriminating policy.

Quote:
Lodge number 9856 was officially opened by a senior Masonic official, Russell Race. He is the Metropolitan Grand Master, head of the Grand Lodge of London...
I'm guessing the article means Provincial Grand Master.

Quote:
The lodge is based at 10 Duke Street in central London, which is also the headquarters of the Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree, one of the most important and mysterious bodies in international Masonic circles, which has an elite membership of only 75 people.
I'm going to need to verify this piece of information since what is known as Scottish Rite in America is different in England.

Quote:
The building, known as Grand East by Masons, contains the "Black Room", the "Red Room" and a "Chamber of Death", used for Masonic rituals.
Mine has a blue room and red room. Oooooohhhhh! Spooky.

Quote:
A spokesman said: "Being a member of any organisation is a matter for the individual, so long as membership of that organisation does not compromise their duties and responsibilities as a police officer."
Precisely.
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Old 30-04-2015, 03:14 AM   #1113
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Originally Posted by iamawaveofthesea View Post
freemasonic pyramid in israel



Quote:
masonic pyramid in rothschild designed knesset building in israel

What makes it Masonic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamawaveofthesea View Post
freemasonic obeslisk in washington:
What makes this Masonic?

Quote:
The vatican city is its own legal enclave seperate form its host country just as the district of colombia washington is its own legal enclave seperate from its host country as is the city of london 'square mile' home of the crown directorate
Except DC is not like the Vatican. The Vatican is considered a sovereign nation while DC is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamawaveofthesea View Post
They don't call themselves that dufus they operate through many front organisations one of which is freemasonry
So what you're saying is that you can't give us evidence or any names that tie it in with Freemasonry. Thanks.

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I avoid the left brain trappings as far as possible, keeping the words of that brethren burns in my head:
Again, another non answer.

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of course you have you fill a seat well and you administer well and most importantly you don't ask awkward questions....you are a perfect drone
What awkward questions would I ask?

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So i'm right in that other lodges look to them as an authority
Only if they fall within the jurisdiction of the UGLE. Like I said, the UGLE is just one among 170+ other Grand Lodges.

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Not all organisations are magical orders who recruit peadophiles and try and subvert society
Neither is Freemasonry.

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Well you haven't heard everything there is to say yet
Well, you've provided nothing that I haven't heard 1,000 times already.

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Its a straight forward question: do you believe the document exists or do you think it has been made up?
I can't say for sure since there's been no release of this document. If it was so important you think some whistle-blower would have released it by now.

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why would they redact the report and suppress it if they have nothing to hide?
That's a good question. I'd like to see this entire thing.

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documentary evidence please to show that none of them ever re-entered freemasonry or continued to exert influence in anyway through freemasonry

Come on big mouth prove it
http://www.masonicinfo.com/p2_lodge.htm

Plus, when a Lodge is expelled, the officers and members involved are often expelled. That's a common practice in Freemasonry. Also, many Masons in the Grand Orient of Italy were not happy with the disregard and criminality shown by Gelli.

If you believe this kook then you deserved to be deceived.

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go on give me a laugh...tell me what they want and how they operate
How they operate? For which body? I'm in several of them?

What do they want? Usually Scotch.

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man you are a joke
Accusations are not proof.

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the other brethren of the lodge are listening and the ones in the know are assessing you
Like who? Who would be in the know?

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oh yes you do, often from father to son


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no i think the ranks of freemasonry are filled with intelligence officers and police who abuse kids and/or cover up for people who do
Who cares what you think?!

Can you cite anything credible?
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Old 30-04-2015, 03:16 AM   #1114
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come on genius tell me why they built a stone pinecone with two peacocks on either side lol
Hell if I know, you're the one who posted it without any thought.

I always love the natural instinct to turn to YouTube as if it was a valid source of information. I mean, I go there to be amused, not educated.
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Old 30-04-2015, 07:52 AM   #1115
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so they are just a big fraud then?
In the case of the Golden Dawn, yes. They did claim a lineage they never had but the truth is that such things are not important anyway. Its what you do that matter, not where you claim to come from.

There are other lodges that have such deco and I have been to one. Its very nice but nobody is pretending to be Egyptian, nor making claims about masonic history to that effect.
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Old 30-04-2015, 11:51 AM   #1116
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Lightbulb Passin the Girl

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Originally Posted by iamawaveofthesea View Post
Passin the hat! lol

peadophilia linked to vatican and also to freemasonry!

passing the hat!

VP - Joe Le Taxi ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post


Local investigations into the organised sexual abuse of children in Rotherham began in the 1990s, although some reports were never finalised or made public by the authorities.. In 2010, 5 men of Pakistani heritage were found guilty of a series of sexual offences against girls as young as twelve.. A subsequent investigation by The Times reported that the child sex exploitation was much more widespread, and the Home Affairs Select Committee criticised the South Yorkshire Police force and Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council for their handling of the abuse. An independent inquiry into child sexual abuse in Rotherham, led by Professor Alexis Jay, was established in 2013 for Rotherham Council..

The Inquiry's initial report was published on 26 August 2014 and condemned the failure of the authorities in Rotherham to act effectively against the abuse and even, in some cases, to acknowledge that it was taking place. It conservatively estimated that 1,400 children had been sexually abused in the town between 1997 and 2013, predominantly by gangs of British-Pakistani men. Abuses described by the report included abduction, rape, torture and sex trafficking of children..

Zafran Ramzan rape, 2 charges of sexual activity with a child 9 years
Razwan Razaq 2 charges of sexual activity with a child 11 years
Umar Razaq sexual activity with a child 4.5 years
Adil Hussain sexual activity with a child 4 years
Mohsin Khan sexual activity with a child 4 years

The committee heard evidence that 3 members of a family connected with the abuse of 61 girls were not convicted, and an unconvicted 22-year-old man was found in a car with a 12-year-old girl with indecent images of her on his phone.. David Compton said that "ethnic origin" was not a factor in deciding whether to charge suspects.. The committee said that they were very concerned, as was the public...

Abuses described by the report included abduction, rape and sex trafficking of children.. The inquiry team found examples of "children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone".. The report further stated that "one child who was being prepared to give evidence received a text saying the perpetrator had her younger sister and the choice of what happened next was up to her. She withdrew her statements.. At least two other families were terrorised by groups of perpetrators, sitting in cars outside the family home, smashing windows, making abusive and threatening phone calls.. On some occasions child victims went back to perpetrators in the belief that this was the only way their parents and other children in the family would be safe. In the most extreme cases, no one in the family believed that the authorities could protect them."The report highlighted the role of taxi drivers in the town in facilitating the abuse....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherh...tation_scandal
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...earing-4508666
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...5&postcount=41
Are they linked to freemasonry ?

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Old 30-04-2015, 07:44 PM   #1117
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Anyone know what the link between the black lodge and their Cella means, a Cella like the one Crowley is interned in..
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Old 30-04-2015, 08:09 PM   #1118
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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
I've seen the conspiracy theories in ad nauseum. I find most of them baseless and founded upon paranoia, superstition, and hatred. Very few are founded in reality and facts.
.
Lets take the Bull by the horns, go out on a limb here, shake your boogie, be completely different for a change and tell us what you think of 9/11.

I know your response...its off topic.

You wont deviate, man how shit is it not to deviate.

Don't worry I'm not picking on you, just want to see you really spruce up the forum a bit

I'm going after that man that never deviates from the moon next.
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Old 30-04-2015, 11:27 PM   #1119
ksigmason
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Lets take the Bull by the horns, go out on a limb here, shake your boogie, be completely different for a change and tell us what you think of 9/11.
It was a horrible event.
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Old 01-05-2015, 06:38 AM   #1120
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It was a horrible event.
You're in the groove man

Unless you've read one of David's books, you won't know what it means.
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