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Old 03-01-2015, 07:03 PM   #241
lightgiver
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Question Rocket attack


Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
I've been close, but not that close.

Well, I can say no, I was not and am not a project for the CIA.

My last was in 2011...rocket attacks in Iraq...


Did that happen when you were inbetween posting non stop waffle on here..I bet you like to talk about that with your mason buddys on char-ity night...



Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
To answer the OP's question, yes, I have been to war, both times in Iraq; OIF III in Kirkuk (northern Iraq) and OND in An Nasiriyah near Ur and then near Al Amarah. Going in on the first tour I was relatively ignorant on most things political, but after 6-months I started doing independent research and that is when I became very political. My first tour I was an All Source Intel Analyst and, the second tour, I was the Mission Coordinator and Mission Briefing Officer for a Shadow UAV Platoon. I did not leave the base, but under certain circumstances, but one of the bases I worked out of was called "Fort Incoming" as we took constant IDF and, though not one of my men, I lost a neighbor who was cut in half by a rocket...I still don't attend my families 4th of July rocket show. In my 12-years I only made it SGT, but that is due to the funding policies within the Army National Guard, but I did serve as the State Representative and Operations NCOIC to the Aviation Group for the UAV PLT. I also served as the BDE Analyst Control Element Chief; Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) Team Leader; acting-Platoon SGT; acting BDE S2 NCOIC; and the list goes on. I would have stayed in, but I injured my back in my service and could not re-enlist to the horror of all of my commanders.

I have since starting going to a university and nearing the end for earning a Bachelors of Science in Political Science with an emphasis on International Relations and a minor in History. Much of my degree surrounds foreign policy, but my real joy surrounds the study of the use of force, terrorism, civil war, national defense policies, and intelligence communities. One of my favorite classes was a Summer course that covered critical infrastructure protection.

I agree that the US needs to pull back from much of its, what others may call it, "imperialistic policies". Really it is what is known as preponderance which surrounds the belief that there will be a super power that will exert military force to influence policy around the world. Preponderance causes an effect of challenger states attempting to usurp and replace the authority of the hegemon (or super power), and thus has historically led to wars as well as pseudo-imperialistic policies that have a great deal of hypocrisy, double-standards or moral relativity (going to Iraq against Saddam instead of African warlords). While I'm a Realist (one who believes that security and force equals order), I believe that the US should abandon such policies and should adopt something closer to Offshore Balancing where regional powers would emerge instead of a global ones and these regions would be connected through a network of alliances to maintain global stability; regional super powers or alliances would maintain stability within their region and/or sphere of influence. I could keep going, but I won't stop and would suck all the bandwidth and most likely bore a majority of the readers.

I stated what is happening now in Iraq since I left in 2005. I mean, it didn't take a brain surgeon to see what would happen once the US framework and military forces pulled out.
Have you been watching repeats of black hawk down Again..

TBH most parts of the US and UK resemble down town Iraq...

Quote:
US forces fired depleted uranium (DU) weapons at civilian areas and troops in Iraq in breach of official advice meant to prevent unnecessary suffering in conflicts, a report has found.."Use of this munition solely against personnel is prohibited if alternative weapons are available," the memo stated. This was for legal reasons "related to the prohibitions against unnecessary suffering and poison"..PAX estimates that there are more than 300 sites in Iraq contaminated by DU, which will cost at least $30m to clean up. DU is a chemically toxic and radioactive heavy metal attractive to weapons designers because it is extremely hard and can pierce armour...
Not forgetting all the soldiers exposed to DU in The Theatre of WaR...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candis_Magazine
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ian-areas-iraq
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...=26157&page=20

Last edited by lightgiver; 03-01-2015 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:31 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by tavingon View Post
Is there something missing in your life? - Yes
Are you looking for answers that you can't find by yourself? - Yes
Are you plain curious? Do you just want to know their secret? - Yes
Do you want to be part of an association to feel accepted? - Not nessesarily
Do you want new friends, new business partners or opportunities? - Yes
If you had been honest with yourself you wouldn't have answered my questions. The fact that you're giving the answers for all of us to see says that your intentions are not good, that you want to do this to boast yourself, to do the will of your archonic father instead of your pre-existent father. Give them a rope and they will hang themselves...
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Old 03-01-2015, 07:36 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by de la source View Post
If you had been honest with yourself you wouldn't have answered my questions. The fact that you're giving the answers for all of us to see says that your intentions are not good, that you want to do this to boast yourself, to do the will of your archonic father instead of your pre-existent father. Give them a rope and they will hang themselves...
And what would you have said if i didnt answer.. probably something equally negative.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:11 PM   #244
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And what would you have said if i didnt answer.. probably something equally negative.
What I wrote earlier: "I don't want you to give an answer. Just think about it. After you have this reflection, you will be able to make your decision."

Can't you read?
I'm finished with you. You are from your father... You are a liar. Your question is not "Should I join?" but "When will I join?" You made up your mind long ago. Go serve your artificier, your demiurge. Become a god or an archon. I will go back to my pre-existent father.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:21 PM   #245
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That's not very nice. To be fair since the thread was created I decided since.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:43 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post
I cant even believe these so called Masons are even posting on the DI forum, it is quite unbelibeable...
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we're not posting anything of value. If it was your way we would be banned and prevented from giving our side. You don't like opposing thought, you'd rather just have a forum filled with sycophantic parrots.

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Originally Posted by de la source View Post
The real question should be "Why do I want to join the Freemasons?"
That is a good question everyone should ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by optimalunity View Post
You say secrecy is not about division, the point is it is not relative to what it is about it is what it results in.
Secrecy isn't about division. Secrecy won't necessarily or inherently result in anything bad either.

Georg Simmel, a sociologist states:
As a general proposition, the secret society emerges everywhere as correlate of despotism and of police control. It acts as protection alike of defense and of offense against the violent pressure of central powers. This is true, not alone in political relations, but in the same way within the church, the school, and the family.
Simmel states that secrecy is a universal sociological form and has nothing to do with moral valuations. Those who believe that secrecy is naturally wrong and use the "nothing-to-hide" argument do so based on assumptions not fact. They presume that secrets are kept only to hide something wrong, but often privacy and secrecy enhance freedom and liberty since living in a police state, in a state of forced "transparency", inhibits the exercise of natural rights like freedom of speech, association/assembly, and all of those essential to a free society.

Secrecy can also build trust:
There are many reasons we may love our spouses, but believing we can share anything with them is an important aspect to a healthy relationship. The idea that your closest companion will not share your private moments with anyone else is what allows you to trust them. The idea that we can trust them gives of the courage to share with them. This is the basis of the secrecy of Masonry.

- Cliff Porter
People need to be less worried about others and maybe just keep their nose to their own business. You and others here have shown a dangerous amount of belief in fascism and ideas that are contrary to freedom and liberty.
The obsessive fear of secrets leads to the denial of the right of secrecy and a rise in the demand for publicity. Concomitantly, distrust of privacy is accompanied by obsession with secrecy. Likewise, an open attitude toward privacy leads to a lessening of concern with secrecy.
Quote:
No I don't believe in privacy, yes I am against the freedom for people to assemble that are not transparent with their agenda.
Which is not very libertarian.

Quote:
As I have stated it is the result of what you do that matters.
So the ends justify the means?

Quote:
Hiding behind a little bit of charity does not hide the agenda of secrecy.
As I stated above, there is no moral valuation to secrecy. It's not that we're hiding anything, it's just that it is none of your business. As a human, I do not need to justify my own privacy. Secrecy is key to freedom, particularly from the intrusion of government and nosey parkers.

Quote:
There you go modes of recognition, hierarchy the essence of a corruption.
LOL Whatever you say.

Quote:
Let alone the secrecy of the symbolism and the energy that invites as it contributes to our ills.
No it doesn't.

Quote:
Rituals are for the week of mind.
Everyone has rituals. Even you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post
I think Masons go door to door as well trying to sell charity booklets etc.
You should stop thinking then.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:44 PM   #247
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Arrow Super Troll

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we're not posting anything of value. If it was your way we would be banned and prevented from giving our side. You don't like opposing thought, you'd rather just have a forum filled with sycophantic parrots...
You know what to do then ..How long do we have to tolerate this BS...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we're not posting anything of value. If it was your way we would be banned and prevented from giving our side. You don't like opposing thought, you'd rather just have a forum filled with sycophantic parrots.


That is a good question everyone should ask.


Secrecy isn't about division. Secrecy won't necessarily or inherently result in anything bad either.

Georg Simmel, a sociologist states:
As a general proposition, the secret society emerges everywhere as correlate of despotism and of police control. It acts as protection alike of defense and of offense against the violent pressure of central powers. This is true, not alone in political relations, but in the same way within the church, the school, and the family.
Simmel states that secrecy is a universal sociological form and has nothing to do with moral valuations. Those who believe that secrecy is naturally wrong and use the "nothing-to-hide" argument do so based on assumptions not fact. They presume that secrets are kept only to hide something wrong, but often privacy and secrecy enhance freedom and liberty since living in a police state, in a state of forced "transparency", inhibits the exercise of natural rights like freedom of speech, association/assembly, and all of those essential to a free society.

Secrecy can also build trust:
There are many reasons we may love our spouses, but believing we can share anything with them is an important aspect to a healthy relationship. The idea that your closest companion will not share your private moments with anyone else is what allows you to trust them. The idea that we can trust them gives of the courage to share with them. This is the basis of the secrecy of Masonry.

- Cliff Porter
People need to be less worried about others and maybe just keep their nose to their own business. You and others here have shown a dangerous amount of belief in fascism and ideas that are contrary to freedom and liberty.
The obsessive fear of secrets leads to the denial of the right of secrecy and a rise in the demand for publicity. Concomitantly, distrust of privacy is accompanied by obsession with secrecy. Likewise, an open attitude toward privacy leads to a lessening of concern with secrecy.

Which is not very libertarian.


So the ends justify the means?


As I stated above, there is no moral valuation to secrecy. It's not that we're hiding anything, it's just that it is none of your business. As a human, I do not need to justify my own privacy. Secrecy is key to freedom, particularly from the intrusion of government and nosey parkers.


LOL Whatever you say.


No it doesn't.


Everyone has rituals. Even you.


You should stop thinking then.
FFS every post is the same...

Last edited by lightgiver; 03-01-2015 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:49 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by eastbeast View Post
Thank you, although the chair gives me dreadful backache.
That's too bad. I had a really nice chair as JW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post
Did that happen when you were inbetween posting non stop waffle on here..I bet you like to talk about that with your mason buddys on char-ity night...
I wasn't very active on here during my deployment. I was active more on ATS then.

The rocket attacks would happen usually around dawn and dusk though. I remember on Mother's Day that a concrete T-wall saved my butt from a rocket.

Quote:
Have you been watching repeats of black hawk down Again..
Haven't seen that movie in a while.

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Originally Posted by tavingon View Post
And what would you have said if i didnt answer.. probably something equally negative.
Precisely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post
You know what to do then ..How long do we have to tolerate this BS...
I know to keep posting the truth. And you'll tolerate me as long as I stay within the rules of this forum.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:54 PM   #249
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Arrow Repitition BS

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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
That's too bad. I had a really nice chair as JW.


I wasn't very active on here during my deployment. I was active more on ATS then.

The rocket attacks would happen usually around dawn and dusk though. I remember on Mother's Day that a concrete T-wall saved my butt from a rocket.


Haven't seen that movie in a while.


Precisely.


I know to keep posting the truth. And you'll tolerate me as long as I stay within the rules of this forum.
You post nothing but the same old shite day in day out..Does Kslig think this a mason forum or something ...WTF is going on...

Last edited by lightgiver; 03-01-2015 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:13 PM   #250
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Arrow Cul De Sac

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We are clearly being prepared for revelations about these entities, because the highly charged, higher frequency energies will increase dramatically the number of people who see these entities of the lower fourth dimension. They need the microchipped control in place before they are seen openly as the vibrational changes advance...
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bi...t_secret_4.htm

Last edited by lightgiver; 03-01-2015 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:21 PM   #251
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Arrow Post Trauma


Lee Van Cleef - FOR A FISTFUL OF SCENES ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
I wasn't very active on here during my deployment. I was active more on ATS then.

The rocket attacks would happen usually around dawn and dusk though. I remember on Mother's Day that a concrete T-wall saved my butt from a rocket...Haven't seen that movie in a while...
Maybe you have PTSD..Be wary, as one or two of them may be holding an RPG launcher...
Quote:
Lee A. Van Arsdale is an American business executive and former U.S. Army officer.. In 2005, Van Arsdale was named chief executive officer of Triple Canopy, Inc., a Virginia-based security services company..Van Arsdale served as a member of Delta Force and helped lead the battle plan for the Battle of Mogadishu...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Van_Arsdale

Last edited by lightgiver; 03-01-2015 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:29 PM   #252
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You post nothing but the same old shite day in day out..Does Kslig think this a mason forum or something ...WTF is going on...
The truth doesn't change simply because you disagree with it.

Posting facts about Masonry doesn't mean I think this is a Masonic forum. I'm just pointing facts for what they are, facts. Whether you like it or not matters very little to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post
Maybe you have PTSD..Be wary, as one or two of them may be holding an RPG launcher...
I had a little when I first got home, but I knew what to expect and how to cope...that and good friends to help. Now I'm fine.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:38 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
The truth doesn't change simply because you disagree with it.

Posting facts about Masonry doesn't mean I think this is a Masonic forum. I'm just pointing facts for what they are, facts. Whether you like it or not matters very little to me.


I had a little when I first got home, but I knew what to expect and how to cope...that and good friends to help. Now I'm fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post


The Good The Bad and The Ugly, Johnny & Billy ..Jachin & Boaz....

So why is a noose placed around the neck of the applicant?

“Yes, there is a noose, but it is depicting the umbilical cord, so when you are born the umbilical cord is cut. The initiate doesn’t have to do anything at all. It’s done beautifully. There are no surprises for the chap coming in, no tests. The beauty is that you feel you belong.”

“They are allegorical plays,” explains Mr Brown. “You come into life with absolutely nothing, and that is what the initiation is about. The 2nd play is about living a good life and the 3rd is about preparing for the end of your life.”

But there is something quasi-religious about Freemasonry. One only has to stand in the temple inside the wonderful, Art Deco Freemasons’ Hall to feel its force. The symbolism is all around, silent and somehow intimidating. Above all, there is that all-seeing eye on the ceiling, beaming down on the white-gloved, aproned brethren...




The length of the umbilical cord is approximately equal to the crown-rump length of the fetus throughout pregnancy.. The umbilical cord in a full term neonate is usually about 50 centimeters (20 in) long and about 2 centimeters (0.75 in) in diameter...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbilical_cord
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/feat...reemasons.html
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...185800&page=22It was all settled right here in this office. Remember? Danny and Me signed a contract, and you witnessed it. You stood over there. I stood there, and Daniel stood here...http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...&postcount=530
Thing is you see,you post nothing about freemasonry..End of...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
And you'll tolerate me...
Really..
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
You should stop thinking then.

Last edited by lightgiver; 03-01-2015 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:52 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimalunity
You say secrecy is not about division, the point is it is not relative to what it is about it is what it results in.
Secrecy isn't about division. Secrecy won't necessarily or inherently result in anything bad either.

Georg Simmel, a sociologist states:
As a general proposition, the secret society emerges everywhere as correlate of despotism and of police control. It acts as protection alike of defense and of offense against the violent pressure of central powers. This is true, not alone in political relations, but in the same way within the church, the school, and the family.
Simmel states that secrecy is a universal sociological form and has nothing to do with moral valuations. Those who believe that secrecy is naturally wrong and use the "nothing-to-hide" argument do so based on assumptions not fact. They presume that secrets are kept only to hide something wrong, but often privacy and secrecy enhance freedom and liberty since living in a police state, in a state of forced "transparency", inhibits the exercise of natural rights like freedom of speech, association/assembly, and all of those essential to a free society.

Secrecy can also build trust:
There are many reasons we may love our spouses, but believing we can share anything with them is an important aspect to a healthy relationship. The idea that your closest companion will not share your private moments with anyone else is what allows you to trust them. The idea that we can trust them gives of the courage to share with them. This is the basis of the secrecy of Masonry.

- Cliff Porter
People need to be less worried about others and maybe just keep their nose to their own business. You and others here have shown a dangerous amount of belief in fascism and ideas that are contrary to freedom and liberty.
The obsessive fear of secrets leads to the denial of the right of secrecy and a rise in the demand for publicity. Concomitantly, distrust of privacy is accompanied by obsession with secrecy. Likewise, an open attitude toward privacy leads to a lessening of concern with secrecy.
What brainwashing social engineering nonsense, must be a Freemason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimalunity
No I don't believe in privacy, yes I am against the freedom for people to assemble that are not transparent with their agenda.
Which is not very libertarian.
I don't subscribe to labels whatever libertarian means to you, another corrupt practice, sponsoring division.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimalunity
As I have stated it is the result of what you do that matters.
So the ends justify the means?
The end is the experience of truth, truth justifies the path to be true not secret, secrecy is a God attribute, humanity needs to submit to the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimalunity
Hiding behind a little bit of charity does not hide the agenda of secrecy.
As I stated above, there is no moral valuation to secrecy. It's not that we're hiding anything, it's just that it is none of your business. As a human, I do not need to justify my own privacy. Secrecy is key to freedom, particularly from the intrusion of government and nosey parkers.
You quoted other Masons, we don't need the same ethic as got us into this shit, we need new direction, kill secrecy you kill the current flow of direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimalunity
There you go modes of recognition, hierarchy the essence of a corruption.
LOL Whatever you say.
I do say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimalunity
Let alone the secrecy of the symbolism and the energy that invites as it contributes to our ills.
No it doesn't.
So you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimalunity
Rituals are for the week of mind.
Everyone has rituals. Even you..
No I do not infact I make it a practice to always implement randomness in my existence, the answers lies in the essence of randomness not in the procession of those who have gone before and screwed the world up. I spit on their graves and will kick their arse when I face their soul.
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:57 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post
Thing is you see,you post nothing about freemasonry..End of...
I post plenty about Freemasonry and the threads I started got deleted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by optimalunity View Post
What brainwashing social engineering nonsense, must be a Freemason.
Simmel wasn't, but even if he was, doesn't invalidate his words.

Quote:
I don't subscribe to labels whatever libertarian means to you, another corrupt practice, sponsoring division.
In that post I used it not as a political party, but as a general term for someone who values and cultivates freedom and liberty.

Quote:
The end is the experience of truth, truth justifies the path to be true not secret, secrecy is a God attribute, humanity needs to submit to the truth.
Truth and secrecy are not mutually exclusive of each other.

Quote:
You quoted other Masons, we don't need the same ethic as got us into this shit, we need new direction, kill secrecy you kill the current flow of direction.
There's nothing wrong with "Masonic ethics". Kill secrecy and you kill privacy. Kill secrecy and kill the keystone to a free society.

Quote:
So you think.
No, I've observed and know.

Quote:
No I do not infact I make it a practice to always implement randomness in my existence, the answers lies in the essence of randomness not in the procession of those who have gone before and screwed the world up. I spit on their graves and will kick their arse when I face their soul.
That's cute. You're trying to deny your own humanity and behavior natural to humanity.
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Old 04-01-2015, 10:26 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post


There's nothing wrong with "Masonic ethics". Kill secrecy and you kill privacy. Kill secrecy and kill the keystone to a free society.

Clearly secrecy has been attempting to kill off the entire planet. So, maybe requiring some level of personal responsibility is not so bad? If hypothetically, you have no resources and you kill off the environment, just on that level you are done. This is what your so called "secrecy" has been doing. We are very close to some pretty hellish times ALL in the name of Freemasonry and the occult. We can class them together and just call them the "occult".

Because it is getting out that Freemasons are ran by the Jesuits. The truth will spread exponentially so. You really have no clue.

If the Universe demands it, it happens my friend.

Good Luck with defending Freemasons, they will need as many as you that can be magically crafted, lol.
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:55 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post



Did that happen when you were inbetween posting non stop waffle on here..I bet you like to talk about that with your mason buddys on char-ity night...





Have you been watching repeats of black hawk down Again..

TBH most parts of the US and UK resemble down town Iraq...



Not forgetting all the soldiers exposed to DU in The Theatre of WaR...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candis_Magazine
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ian-areas-iraq
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...=26157&page=20
Not forgetting all the soldiers exposed to DU in The Theatre of WaR...


I know locally such an ex soldier who was in both wars, he was getting large boils coming out of his neck last time I met with him, not seen him for some time now.
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:59 PM   #258
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Clearly secrecy has been attempting to kill off the entire planet. So, maybe requiring some level of personal responsibility is not so bad? If hypothetically, you have no resources and you kill off the environment, just on that level you are done. This is what your so called "secrecy" has been doing. We are very close to some pretty hellish times ALL in the name of Freemasonry and the occult. We can class them together and just call them the "occult".

Because it is getting out that Freemasons are ran by the Jesuits. The truth will spread exponentially so. You really have no clue.

If the Universe demands it, it happens my friend.

Good Luck with defending Freemasons, they will need as many as you that can be magically crafted, lol.
There are plenty of old publications who tried to tell the good men amongst masons to leave the craft, one was Robert Taylor.

Eventually the majority will recognise just how infiltrated all of the secret societies have become, I for one can see it, and know a few who have left already.

They have already fallen off of their virgin white cliffs and are in free fall.
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Old 04-01-2015, 02:17 PM   #259
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They are machines because they are spirit-less. Machines don't have to be physical oe 3D: they can be made of light. Why do you think freemasons worship a "lightbearer". Because this machine used light to create this world. The Source is not light. It is something unimaginable. The "lightbearer" wants to copy it but it can't. The only bridge between the true Source and the "lightbearer" is man: an hybrid. Being an hybrid means that we have to make a choice, chose between to parents.
Jesus is also refered to as Lucifer in the Roman ritual!
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Old 04-01-2015, 02:20 PM   #260
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There are plenty of old publications who tried to tell the good men amongst masons to leave the craft, one was Robert Taylor.

Eventually the majority will recognise just how infiltrated all of the secret societies have become, I for one can see it, and know a few who have left already.

They have already fallen off of their virgin white cliffs and are in free fall.
Actually the catholic church threatened to excommunicate catholics who were masons. Clearly they did not want their money going to other organisations but wanted it for the church.

Many leave because its not for them. They think they will advance socially and realise its not how things get done, others just go their own way for many other reasons. People leave the church or any other organisation in exactly the same way. Religion as a whole is on the decline, which is why freemasnory is struggling to recruit. Most people now just want to enjoy the material world and not care about morals and codes of conduct which inhibit them doing what they like.
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