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Old 21-04-2008, 08:50 AM   #61
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Dissident Orders Deriving from Isis Urania no.3



diagram from Ithel Colquhoun, The Sword of Wisdom MacGregor Mathers and the Golden Dawn , 1975, pp.182-3
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Old 21-04-2008, 08:53 AM   #62
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The Crowleyite Tradition

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Old 21-04-2008, 08:54 AM   #63
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Old 21-04-2008, 09:10 AM   #64
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quote: thirdwave
this is a perfect example of somone reading his works and judging him... and somone else (ES) sending a load of tripe he has found others say about him on the internet... mixed with with more if his complete ignorance when it comes to anything occult related.

............................

No one knows for certain what texts/books are the originals written by AC, how much has been added taken away etc. You're basing your view on faith if you think your getting the original texts.
Besides, much of what's out there about AC and the occult is pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo, served with a large portion of tripe, and it's meant to confuse you and have no or little results. I've discussed AC with some of the Masons here. So, "why don't you ask Thelonius the highest ranked of them about AC?"

TW if you know anything worth knowing let's have it.........

His books contain instructions for you to follow so that is telling you what to do and think.
Much of his "ideas" came from many different religions, it's a pick and mix of bits from here bits from there. So the he was "against religion theory" doesn't quite wash does it?

It's the New Age religion he promoted, same as the Wiccan movement was not a grass roots movement ( do your research ) Those who give you what you think is your counter culture are the same people at the top of society who gave you religion, the system and laws in the system. High Masonry and the Ruling Elite gave you AC etc. He was one of them. You know the one's who are behind most of the evil on this Planet

You need to wake up and smell the mustard baby, because it's all connected...intelligence agencies, occult groups, politics, culture, etc ya dee ya dee yah.

The groups he was involved with had pecking order, he liked to be at the top, pure ego. And they are not going to put books out so the profane, or the lower rank and file occultist can know about what they at the top get up too.


I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT IT, I AM PROVIDING ALTERNATIVE INCITE FOR ANYONE ELSE INTERESTING IN LEARNING ABOUT HIM....

THINK WHAT YOU LIKE, I DONT CARE.

the way you and others are banging on and throwing your toys out of your pram because of this is one of the reasons I first started to show an interest in Crowley to start with...

I think I am big enough to look after my self and I feel I am mature enough to read Crowley works.

If you dont want to, then dont!.

Last edited by thirdwave; 21-04-2008 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 21-04-2008, 09:13 AM   #65
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Are you sure about that?
Well I did not see them go at it but I assume Diana was a Lady who had needs as most do.

and I would say Prince William does not look like he came from the milkman.

but I would say marrying him was also within the contexts of my point, unless we are now to think she was a Satanist as well, Which I don't.

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Old 21-04-2008, 09:21 AM   #66
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quote: thirdwave
this is a perfect example of somone reading his works and judging him... and somone else (ES) sending a load of tripe he has found others say about him on the internet... mixed with with more if his complete ignorance when it comes to anything occult related.

............................

No one knows for certain what texts/books are the originals written by AC, how much has been added taken away etc. You're basing your view on faith if you think your getting the original texts.

lol, of course its clear the media have been %100 focused on giving him a wonderful name... this would explain why they create positives texts from him!! and all the negative stuff written about him is all %100 honest and down the line... or course!

How desperate are you to create the judgement on this guy?

and again you do not mind people sifting through the shit in the bible.... but on this ..not so much.

I know you have said you are not a Christian.... But I don't think you are being very honest, I think you are very much a Christian and it explains all your blinkered views and understanding on many things....

If you are for some odd reason not a Christian, then it would be very interesting to find out why not.

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Old 21-04-2008, 11:27 AM   #67
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The topic of hostility towards women in religion and occultism has scarcely been touched on in studies of these subjects. However, it is a symptom of such attitudes that even the hedonistic prophet of the "New Æon" Aleister Crowley, and his quasi-counterpart the ascetic Arnoldo Krumm-Heller, adhered to certain forms of misogyny in both theory and practice; attitudes which are still present in those who proclaim their ideas of a new humanity. The reader should ideally be familiar with The O.T.O. Phenomenon, or the authors' articles, before reading the following excursus on the practices and psychology of the various O.T.O. groups. In the disguised O.T.O. lodge that calls itself Fraternitas Saturni (FS), there is a misogynistic agenda, to which the FS's founder Eugen Grosche gave blatant voice. Only a few of many examples need be quoted here:
"The Female Being is the enemy and the opposer of Man from the very Beginning." "Certainly not every cow is a beast of prey, and not every Female Animal a demonic being." The purpose of marriage is "to domesticate man." What can Man do against it? "In marriage the will of Man must be dominant." "The influence on Man of the pure sexual urge for females will be defeated in time through the self-conscious spiritualization of Woman."
Under his pseudonym of Gregor A. Gregorius, Grosche defined his view of women's rôle clearly: "To be a lover who only satisfies all sexual and erotic desires of man." Nonetheless, the FS was - and still is - described as a "unique and recognised magical Lodge" which "nevertheless admits women," though the female members are only qualified "as help-meets for experimental magic, and in the cult of the sexual Mysteries." Hence the men in the FS used "consciously created sexual dependance" to achieve their aims.
Grosche's successors have continued this doctrine: Karl Wedler (or 'Giovanni') and his protegé Guido Wolther ('Daniel') have on the one hand declared that "homosexuals and pederasts must be rejected as sex-magical monstrosities" - yet on the other hand proclaimed that the ruling spirit of the present æon is the "Dæmon of torture and adultery" worshipped with "grains of incense steeped in semen and human blood; he follows the Dæmon of Lies, of Sodomy and Homosexuality, the Dæmon of Lewdness and Orgies." This is indicated by certain magical symbols, which are said to confer "immediate power with respect to sex on both men and women." Wedler gave his "brother and friend" Wolther a manuscript entitled 'The Devil's Elixirs', which contained recipes for poisoning enemies, inflicting deadly ailments, driving people insane, and so on ad nauseam.
Having come upon the dogma propounded by his FS predecessors, Dieter Heikaus ('Set Horus') elected to cathartically reveal their ideas to the outside world - a risky process that he hoped would set these "great magicians" up as magical idols once more. He decided that his Ordo Saturni, and more particularly its internal 'Pentalpha' group, could perform "the sex-magical operations of the old FS".


http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/fs2.htm
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Old 21-04-2008, 11:30 AM   #68
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Nosferatu's Baby

Because of his chauvinistic attitudes towards women, Eugen Grosche was never able to find his soul-mate in the physical world, but using his occult arts and knowledge, assumed the form of 'GOTOS' an égregore or group-spirit. GOTOS was also called 'UTUIT', which was supposed to mean 'OTO-it' (a sort of activated form); it was also the highest rank in the FS (from 'Gradus Ordo Templi Orientis Saturni'), and the égregore was created as an astral body by the joint efforts of all FS members, using a specially created head-and-shoulders statue or bust to help their efforts. By this means, Grosche hoped that after his death, in the form of GOTOS's astral body, he could at last be united with his soul-mate - and thereby reach an androgynous state on a higher plane. This group-spirit was supposed to have some femimine characteristics, but the only feminine aspect of GOTOS was the mediumship used to obtain the design of its statue. Representing an égregore as a bust or head recalls the literary traditions of statues coming to life (see next section); or else the tale of Salomé, who desired John the Baptist's head on a platter - perhaps to gain his powers of prophecy.
So the central concept in FS lodges is that of the lodge égregore, and its powers of re-animation. The classic prototype for such an idea is that of Baphomet, the supposed idol of the Knights Templar, who was (as the Roman Emperor) likewise worshipped in the form of a head. It has been claimed that Baphomet was invoked with the first sura of the Qur'an, and dismissed with the twenty-fourth chapter of the apocryphal Book of Sirach.
O.T.O. groups have all made use of the idea of Baphomet - but in the Saturn lodges it has been given a different emphasis, and far greater value than in the other versions of the O.T.O.

People out of stone

In India, it is a tradition amongst certain Tantric sects to anoint their phallic lingam images with oil, milk, and sometimes semen. A similar tradition involving living statues and plaster busts exists in Western culture - at least on a literary level. E.T.A. Hoffman, Edgar Allen Poe, Ambrose Bierce, and Jules Verne amongst others, have reinterpreted the original myth of Pygmalion from Ovid; it can even be seen in the musical 'My Fair Lady'. This tradition fulfills an ancient human dream, that of bringing the dead back to life, either artificially or with the help of the gods of magic. Even today there are hints of it in cybernetics and genetic engineering. Inspired by the attempts of Charles Darwin's grandfather Erasmus Darwin to re-animate dead worms, the nineteen-year-old Mary Shelley wrote the novel 'Frankenstein: or the new Prometheus' which was published in 1818. More on the theme has been written more recently by authors such as Philip K. Dick (as in 'Blade Runner'), Alfred Bester, Stanislaw Lem and Pierre Klossowsky. In Switzerland in 1972, a drama based on the classical myth of Galatea appeared, expressing the eternal dream of a man for a woman who is wholly dedicated to him. In the play, which was a reworking of an episode from the 'Alpensaga', some farmers create a 'Sennentuntschi', an artificial woman grown in a bottle from a mixture of dung and cheese. Needless to say, Sennentuntschi soon frees herself from their attentions.
In Jewish mysticism, there is the legend of the Golem, which is ultimately based on Psalm 139 verse 16; the story is best known from the mediæval golem created by Rabbi Löw of Prague, as described in Gustav Meyrink's impressive novel The Golem (1915). Golems are reproductions of Adam, formed from the dust of the earth, and they go even further back in Jewish culture, as may be discovered in a commentary on the ancient Cabalistic text the Sefer Yetzirah, as expounded by the eminent scholar Gershom Scholem. The German author of occult and erotic potboilers H.H. Ewers added a sexual twist to the legend with his novel Alraune in 1911. Also in Germany, Paul Wegener directed a film of The Golem in 1915, the first in a series of German films such as Nosferatu, Das Kabinett des Doktor Caligari and Dr. Mabuse which evoked a fascination for evil. Neo-Gnostics and secret societies in Germany and elsewhere got a lot of inspiration from fictional sources such as these - enough for them to devise their own 'Order Secrets'. The concept of the Homunculus, an alchemical mannikin produced in a bottle, was not foreign to Theodor Reuss, the O.T.O.'s founder. The prescribed reading-list for O.T.O. members included G. Herman's work called Genesis - das Gesetz der Zeugung (Genesis - the Law of Procreation) which describes the production of a being "who is realized through the odic power of materialization, and which as odic mist streams from the vulvae, and under the traditional uterine influence easily forms child-souls." The alchemist Paracelsus described his formula for creating a Homunculus using blood and semen, and this has been compared to the consecrated hosts of the Spermo-Gnostics. In 1914 Aleister Crowley wrote his Xth degree instruction De Homunculo Epistola in which he described the homunculus, even though he was less than enthusiastic about it. It is quite possible that he had been inspired by Somerset Maugham, who had published a novel called The Magician in 1907, whose villain Oliver Haddo is based on Crowley; in the novel Haddo manufactures a mad homunculus by devilish arts. Similarly, Crowley himself wrote a novel in 1917 (not published until 1929) called Moonchild, in which sex-magicians create a speaking homunculus with astrological enchantments.


People out of stone

In India, it is a tradition amongst certain Tantric sects to anoint their phallic lingam images with oil, milk, and sometimes semen. A similar tradition involving living statues and plaster busts exists in Western culture - at least on a literary level. E.T.A. Hoffman, Edgar Allen Poe, Ambrose Bierce, and Jules Verne amongst others, have reinterpreted the original myth of Pygmalion from Ovid; it can even be seen in the musical 'My Fair Lady'. This tradition fulfills an ancient human dream, that of bringing the dead back to life, either artificially or with the help of the gods of magic. Even today there are hints of it in cybernetics and genetic engineering. Inspired by the attempts of Charles Darwin's grandfather Erasmus Darwin to re-animate dead worms, the nineteen-year-old Mary Shelley wrote the novel 'Frankenstein: or the new Prometheus' which was published in 1818. More on the theme has been written more recently by authors such as Philip K. Dick (as in 'Blade Runner'), Alfred Bester, Stanislaw Lem and Pierre Klossowsky. In Switzerland in 1972, a drama based on the classical myth of Galatea appeared, expressing the eternal dream of a man for a woman who is wholly dedicated to him. In the play, which was a reworking of an episode from the 'Alpensaga', some farmers create a 'Sennentuntschi', an artificial woman grown in a bottle from a mixture of dung and cheese. Needless to say, Sennentuntschi soon frees herself from their attentions.
In Jewish mysticism, there is the legend of the Golem, which is ultimately based on Psalm 139 verse 16; the story is best known from the mediæval golem created by Rabbi Löw of Prague, as described in Gustav Meyrink's impressive novel The Golem (1915). Golems are reproductions of Adam, formed from the dust of the earth, and they go even further back in Jewish culture, as may be discovered in a commentary on the ancient Cabalistic text the Sefer Yetzirah, as expounded by the eminent scholar Gershom Scholem. The German author of occult and erotic potboilers H.H. Ewers added a sexual twist to the legend with his novel Alraune in 1911. Also in Germany, Paul Wegener directed a film of The Golem in 1915, the first in a series of German films such as Nosferatu, Das Kabinett des Doktor Caligari and Dr. Mabuse which evoked a fascination for evil. Neo-Gnostics and secret societies in Germany and elsewhere got a lot of inspiration from fictional sources such as these - enough for them to devise their own 'Order Secrets'. The concept of the Homunculus, an alchemical mannikin produced in a bottle, was not foreign to Theodor Reuss, the O.T.O.'s founder. The prescribed reading-list for O.T.O. members included G. Herman's work called Genesis - das Gesetz der Zeugung (Genesis - the Law of Procreation) which describes the production of a being "who is realized through the odic power of materialization, and which as odic mist streams from the vulvae, and under the traditional uterine influence easily forms child-souls." The alchemist Paracelsus described his formula for creating a Homunculus using blood and semen, and this has been compared to the consecrated hosts of the Spermo-Gnostics. In 1914 Aleister Crowley wrote his Xth degree instruction De Homunculo Epistola in which he described the homunculus, even though he was less than enthusiastic about it. It is quite possible that he had been inspired by Somerset Maugham, who had published a novel called The Magician in 1907, whose villain Oliver Haddo is based on Crowley; in the novel Haddo manufactures a mad homunculus by devilish arts. Similarly, Crowley himself wrote a novel in 1917 (not published until 1929) called Moonchild, in which sex-magicians create a speaking homunculus with astrological enchantments.

You are my Creator but I am your Lord

In the Saturn Lodges a definite connection was made between the subject of 'artificial astral beings' and Vampire mythology. The égregore and its incarnate 'tenant', the possessor of the highest degree in the FS, were fuelled by the vital sexual powers of all the lodge members. Both the FS and its successor the Ordo Saturni deliberately tried to creat a form of astral vampire, which they hoped eventually to incarnate as a being of flesh and blood. It was a reversal of the Christian Eucharist, where the congregation consumes the supposed flesh and blood of God, in the form of bread and wine. If one believes that Gods are the creation of Man, then it follows that an order-egregore is also a God. To succesfully create a Golem might therefore mean that with the Golem even a God could be vicariously destroyed; a dream of omnipotence realised. In the FS the office of Gotos permits a personality to be united with GOTOS UTUIT itself; the Outer Head of the Order (OHO) becomes the Inner Head of the Order (IHO). Deus est Homo - Homo est Deus, as was stated similarly (but unconnectedly) in Reuss and Crowley's Liber Agapé.
In the FS's magical system, the libido during sexual intercourse was transferred from the sexual partner to the astral égregore. In concrete terms, this meant all that heterosexual and homosexual activity was conducted with the use of wordshells/euphemisms (Holy, Logos, Saturn, etc.) to feed the égregore's vitality. These efforts to identify the Saturn Order with an (at least) astral Golem, a Homunculus, an image or statue brought to life, or else some other form of android to build up power, is quite different from the practises of other O.T.O. groups, who are effectively engaged in a quest for the 'Elixir of Life' in the form of psychosexual secretions to gain self-empowerment, or to contact spirits. Nonetheless, this has not prevented some membrs of the so-called 'Caliphate' O.T.O. from joining the Ordo Saturni; in the Saturn lodges this 'elixir' was mostly used for anointing the statue of the GOTOS.

Baphomet and the O.T.O.

The égregore has never been an important issue to other O.T.O. groups. As Marcelo Ramos Motta wrote: "the Egregora does exist in the so-called 'astral plane' and it is a demon, that is to say, an illusory entity. It is not a true Microcosm, but a gestalt of vitalized shells, a focus for everything that is negative, defeatist, maudlin, bigoted, introverted in human nature - a morass completely hostile to progress and to the spiritual evolution of mankind."
The publication of an earlier version of the foregoing sections in this essay caused some interest among members of the 'Typhonian' O.T.O. following the FS example, they duly devised what they called an 'Égregore Map' from various more or less Thelemic entities: Lam, Olun, Aiwass, Maat, Babalon, and the Beast. "It can be defined as the group spirit (super-consciousness) of all the members of a particular Order... It is analogous to the running of magical computer programs across a network of adepts or members, in order to access necessary gnosis and guidance from the Secret Chiefs. This can be done using these égregore maps because they express the laws of Creation and the Fall through their symbolism. They allow people to free themselves from the lust of result by the externalisation of the Holy Guardian Angel into the égregore."
The égregore is by definition a created soul (psychogon); according to Aleister Crowley it serves mostly to realise of wishes, and is consequently a 'helpmeet-spirit' who obeys the Holy Guardian Angel as in the Abramelin system. The 'Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage' (see illustrations 1 & 2 ) describes one method of attaining communication with one's guardian angel; every human being has an individual spiritual power, a divine mirror image called the Holy Guardian Angel, who restores a link to the divine for human beings engulfed in matter. Once contact with the Guardian Angel has been established - after six lunar months of asceticism and constant devotional prayer - the magician may then (if he dares) invoke armies of demons and servile spirits to do his will.
From the other side, it could reasonably be claimed that the guardian angel gets something in return. In the ecstasy of a human orgasm, the Angel attains a vision of the Universe as a continuous, unblemished phenomenon, where it is separated from the pure union of human with the divine; and thus the Angel finds wholeness in the human to whom it ministers.
Many FS techniques, like absorbing the libido from sexual partners may also be found in O.T.O. lodges. But in the OTO, the method is to transfer the libido's energy to one's own ego and its adjuncts. The Order becomes a substitute for the archetypal Mother, while its charismatic leader is transformed into a substitute for the corresponding Father-figure. This practice started with Carl Kellner, whose female followers wore a locket containing a photograph of him, and the lamen, or magical shield of the Memphis-Misraim Rite: a sphinx within a pyramid under a blazing sun. Kellner viewed his self-created office as Baphomet as descending from the Babylonian priesthood. However, in Richard Payne Knight's interpretation, Baphomet was an androgynous figure who united active and passive polarities. Kellner apparently did not accept Éliphas Lévi's diabolic interpretation of Baphomet, which Crowley was later to use in the 'Devil' card of his Thoth Tarot designs. Indeed, Crowley always described himself as Baphomet in connection with the O.T.O., and considered this to unite the offices of both Inner and Outer Head of the Order in himself - they were linked in the concept of the homosexual eleventh degree of the O.T.O. [This might explain the 'Caliph' William Breeze's assumption of the XIth degree]. It is not known whether he ever tried to bring an image to life (except the skeleton he fed with blood at his Chancery Lane 'Black Temple'), or to use Baphomet as an égregore in the FS sense. Certainly, when his follower Jack Parsons tried to create a homunculus with the aid of sex-magic (and the founder of Scientology, Lafayette Ronald Hubbard), Crowley reacted angrily, calling the affair "nonsense".
Crowley, alias Baphomet XI°, assumed the rôle of an idealised father-figure in his rescension of the O.T.O. By idolising Crowley/Baphomet in this way, his followers nurtured precociously regressive sadistic and anal attitudes, which tended to be acted out in the form of oral aggression, as a consequence of a significant upset of the balance between fantasy and reality. As the central idol of the Crowleyan O.T.O. there stood a golden phallus, with which the sex-magician was meant to identify himself in the form of an ejaculating penis. In O.T.O. groups of this school there is little possibility of using such phallocentric and narcissistic behaviour as a way of obtaining solitary communion with an égregore. Energies liberated in this way would generate 'disorder' in 'practicing' individuals (at least in the higher degrees). The imitation of Crowley's biography stimulates dramatic relationships and drug-addiction. There is no Gnosis here. No, not even here, where a Gnostic sense of an intolerable existence is reflected in several different O.T.O. Orders all at war with each other; these merely show that there is a yawning void between the 'rotten places' and the Pleroma.
With these O.T.O.'s, the light at the end of the tunnel for seekers is the corpse-light glimmer from carefully contrived schemes and inducements towards sensuality and self-indulgence; it shines on a mouthful of semen, and illuminates no more than ready-made images, images which are endlessly imitated, regurgitated and thoroughly manufactured.
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Old 21-04-2008, 11:32 AM   #69
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Knights of the Neurosy-Cross

The Saturn lodges have never succeded in achieving the union of the human holder of the Gotos office, with the GOTOS égregore. This is apparently why the O.T.O. fell into schism during Crowley's time; the Saturn lodges have not been able ("so far" that is) to invoke the spirits of Pluto necessary to the union, and this has meant the Gotos-Golem (the O.T.O. Saturni Golem) has fragmented into narcissistic offshoots of Grosche and his allies.
If this human Gotos is not a Charismatic individual, then the efforts of his followers can only be devoted to the service of the égregore-GOTOS, charging it up like a battery; but if the human Gotos does not remain in the background, then the magical energies can flow back, and not drain away. But this latter possibility only works if the human Gotos avoids the trap of narcissistic folly through excessive dependance on the GOTOS (human or égregore), as also so long as the human Gotos separates himself from the lodge members having an influence on psychological transmission. This practice has only been tried in the 'Caliphate' O.T.O. (in contrast to H.J. Metzger's group) where the chief of the Order, the 'Caliph' remains effectively incomminicado, except for 'ex-cathedra' pronouncements; paradoxically, the 'Caliph' is seen as magically powerless. A repressed identification with a homosexual All-Father figure in the form of Crowley has proved to be a deficiency in the personal development of many 'Caliphate' followers. The result has been a fanatical, supposedly socially involved 'coming out' of the 'Caliphate' as a publicly recognised religious community, and led to their concealment of all their magical and sexual doctrines. Recently this group has told its membership to separate the "problematic" figure of Aleister Crowley from the doctrine of Thelema, even though Thelema is still to be considered as he Highest Truth of this Æon. This has effectively replaced critical thought, and replaced it with all the trappings of 'belief' in a cult, with an emphasis on the importance of ritual for its own sake, and new myths. Information which might promote dissent is suppressed, and measures to censure those who step out of line is now included in the group's statutes.
Unsubstantiated legal threats frighten bogeymen. So the 'Caliphate' (which now represents itself as the one and only O.T.O.) proclaims that it is incapable of error, and uses the courts to fight every criticism from the moral 'majority', the press or the police. A strategy of positive news-management has been introduced, and where necessary truth is the first casualty.

Fraternitas Rosicruciana Antiqua


Although Baphomet also occurs in the initiation rituals of the F.R.A., it seems that Arnoldo Krumm-Heller was never involved in the aforementioned shenanigans. He saw himself in a messianic role, adhering strongly to the idea of Christian Gnostic objects of veneration, and Jesus as saviour. Salvation was obtained from Him alone, and it meant that people would only ever meet good deeds along the way. True, salvation could be achieved through spermo-gnosis as well, but only by avoiding ejaculation. These homoeopathic Gnostics served a higher divine order, but their concomitant will to bring order to humanity was very far from self-deification. In spite of his apparent adherence to Thelema, and the use of LAM as a mantra, Krumm-Heller was more involved with social concerns and joining organisations, rather than any magical or mystical self-development. Homoeopathy requires a lot of human sensitivity from both doctor and patient.
There is no evidence that Krumm-Heller believed in any particular Intelligence, like those found in Crowley's spiritual cosmogeny. Krumm-Heller focussed more on human reality and not on gaining contact with transcendental realms, even when those were formulated as Beings. To this day, "the teachings of the Ancient Rose-Cross Brotherhood" have had no real rôle for their astral (actually Theosophical) Master Racoczy, nor of the égregore, nor of an Inner Head of the Order. Contact with the "angel on the other side" takes place only in "helping and healing".
Apart from thinking that avoiding ejaculation helped healing and human evolution, Krumm-Heller thought it a "good deed for redemption". Maybe redemption was necessary in revolutionary Mexico, when the material world must really have looked like a Gnostic "Rotten Place". It is not known, however, whether he used semen either homoeopathically or isopathically as a universal medicine.
After Krumm-Hellers death, there was conflict within his Rosicrucian organization, rather like those in the O.T.O. groups. But today his F.R.A. is relatively small, its membership regarding themselves as isolated groups, and not ruled by an overall leader. Krumm-Heller offered little room for his followers psychological projections, and his F.R.A. was, and still is, too exclusive to attract really deep devotion. Had it not been for H.J. Metzger's claims to be the leader of the F.R.A., nobody would have heard anything about Krumm-Heller or the F.R.A. in the German or English-speaking worlds after World War Two. It has only been by plagiarising the present author's books that the 'Caliphate' have been able to mix Krumm-Heller into their historical fantasies.

Gnosis in Appenzell - A catalogue


and if that's not enough there's more here
http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/fs2.htm
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Old 21-04-2008, 11:33 AM   #70
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Nosferatu's Baby

Because of his chauvinistic attitudes towards women, Eugen Grosche was never able to find his soul-mate in the physical world, but using his occult arts and knowledge, assumed the form of 'GOTOS' an égregore or group-spirit. GOTOS was also called 'UTUIT', which was supposed to mean 'OTO-it' (a sort of activated form); it was also the highest rank in the FS (from 'Gradus Ordo Templi Orientis Saturni'), and the égregore was created as an astral body by the joint efforts of all FS members, using a specially created head-and-shoulders statue or bust to help their efforts. By this means, Grosche hoped that after his death, in the form of GOTOS's astral body, he could at last be united with his soul-mate - and thereby reach an androgynous state on a higher plane. This group-spirit was supposed to have some femimine characteristics, but the only feminine aspect of GOTOS was the mediumship used to obtain the design of its statue. Representing an égregore as a bust or head recalls the literary traditions of statues coming to life (see next section); or else the tale of Salomé, who desired John the Baptist's head on a platter - perhaps to gain his powers of prophecy.
So the central concept in FS lodges is that of the lodge égregore, and its powers of re-animation. The classic prototype for such an idea is that of Baphomet, the supposed idol of the Knights Templar, who was (as the Roman Emperor) likewise worshipped in the form of a head. It has been claimed that Baphomet was invoked with the first sura of the Qur'an, and dismissed with the twenty-fourth chapter of the apocryphal Book of Sirach.
O.T.O. groups have all made use of the idea of Baphomet - but in the Saturn lodges it has been given a different emphasis, and far greater value than in the other versions of the O.T.O.

People out of stone

In India, it is a tradition amongst certain Tantric sects to anoint their phallic lingam images with oil, milk, and sometimes semen. A similar tradition involving living statues and plaster busts exists in Western culture - at least on a literary level. E.T.A. Hoffman, Edgar Allen Poe, Ambrose Bierce, and Jules Verne amongst others, have reinterpreted the original myth of Pygmalion from Ovid; it can even be seen in the musical 'My Fair Lady'. This tradition fulfills an ancient human dream, that of bringing the dead back to life, either artificially or with the help of the gods of magic. Even today there are hints of it in cybernetics and genetic engineering. Inspired by the attempts of Charles Darwin's grandfather Erasmus Darwin to re-animate dead worms, the nineteen-year-old Mary Shelley wrote the novel 'Frankenstein: or the new Prometheus' which was published in 1818. More on the theme has been written more recently by authors such as Philip K. Dick (as in 'Blade Runner'), Alfred Bester, Stanislaw Lem and Pierre Klossowsky. In Switzerland in 1972, a drama based on the classical myth of Galatea appeared, expressing the eternal dream of a man for a woman who is wholly dedicated to him. In the play, which was a reworking of an episode from the 'Alpensaga', some farmers create a 'Sennentuntschi', an artificial woman grown in a bottle from a mixture of dung and cheese. Needless to say, Sennentuntschi soon frees herself from their attentions.
In Jewish mysticism, there is the legend of the Golem, which is ultimately based on Psalm 139 verse 16; the story is best known from the mediæval golem created by Rabbi Löw of Prague, as described in Gustav Meyrink's impressive novel The Golem (1915). Golems are reproductions of Adam, formed from the dust of the earth, and they go even further back in Jewish culture, as may be discovered in a commentary on the ancient Cabalistic text the Sefer Yetzirah, as expounded by the eminent scholar Gershom Scholem. The German author of occult and erotic potboilers H.H. Ewers added a sexual twist to the legend with his novel Alraune in 1911. Also in Germany, Paul Wegener directed a film of The Golem in 1915, the first in a series of German films such as Nosferatu, Das Kabinett des Doktor Caligari and Dr. Mabuse which evoked a fascination for evil. Neo-Gnostics and secret societies in Germany and elsewhere got a lot of inspiration from fictional sources such as these - enough for them to devise their own 'Order Secrets'. The concept of the Homunculus, an alchemical mannikin produced in a bottle, was not foreign to Theodor Reuss, the O.T.O.'s founder. The prescribed reading-list for O.T.O. members included G. Herman's work called Genesis - das Gesetz der Zeugung (Genesis - the Law of Procreation) which describes the production of a being "who is realized through the odic power of materialization, and which as odic mist streams from the vulvae, and under the traditional uterine influence easily forms child-souls." The alchemist Paracelsus described his formula for creating a Homunculus using blood and semen, and this has been compared to the consecrated hosts of the Spermo-Gnostics. In 1914 Aleister Crowley wrote his Xth degree instruction De Homunculo Epistola in which he described the homunculus, even though he was less than enthusiastic about it. It is quite possible that he had been inspired by Somerset Maugham, who had published a novel called The Magician in 1907, whose villain Oliver Haddo is based on Crowley; in the novel Haddo manufactures a mad homunculus by devilish arts. Similarly, Crowley himself wrote a novel in 1917 (not published until 1929) called Moonchild, in which sex-magicians create a speaking homunculus with astrological enchantments.


People out of stone

In India, it is a tradition amongst certain Tantric sects to anoint their phallic lingam images with oil, milk, and sometimes semen. A similar tradition involving living statues and plaster busts exists in Western culture - at least on a literary level. E.T.A. Hoffman, Edgar Allen Poe, Ambrose Bierce, and Jules Verne amongst others, have reinterpreted the original myth of Pygmalion from Ovid; it can even be seen in the musical 'My Fair Lady'. This tradition fulfills an ancient human dream, that of bringing the dead back to life, either artificially or with the help of the gods of magic. Even today there are hints of it in cybernetics and genetic engineering. Inspired by the attempts of Charles Darwin's grandfather Erasmus Darwin to re-animate dead worms, the nineteen-year-old Mary Shelley wrote the novel 'Frankenstein: or the new Prometheus' which was published in 1818. More on the theme has been written more recently by authors such as Philip K. Dick (as in 'Blade Runner'), Alfred Bester, Stanislaw Lem and Pierre Klossowsky. In Switzerland in 1972, a drama based on the classical myth of Galatea appeared, expressing the eternal dream of a man for a woman who is wholly dedicated to him. In the play, which was a reworking of an episode from the 'Alpensaga', some farmers create a 'Sennentuntschi', an artificial woman grown in a bottle from a mixture of dung and cheese. Needless to say, Sennentuntschi soon frees herself from their attentions.
In Jewish mysticism, there is the legend of the Golem, which is ultimately based on Psalm 139 verse 16; the story is best known from the mediæval golem created by Rabbi Löw of Prague, as described in Gustav Meyrink's impressive novel The Golem (1915). Golems are reproductions of Adam, formed from the dust of the earth, and they go even further back in Jewish culture, as may be discovered in a commentary on the ancient Cabalistic text the Sefer Yetzirah, as expounded by the eminent scholar Gershom Scholem. The German author of occult and erotic potboilers H.H. Ewers added a sexual twist to the legend with his novel Alraune in 1911. Also in Germany, Paul Wegener directed a film of The Golem in 1915, the first in a series of German films such as Nosferatu, Das Kabinett des Doktor Caligari and Dr. Mabuse which evoked a fascination for evil. Neo-Gnostics and secret societies in Germany and elsewhere got a lot of inspiration from fictional sources such as these - enough for them to devise their own 'Order Secrets'. The concept of the Homunculus, an alchemical mannikin produced in a bottle, was not foreign to Theodor Reuss, the O.T.O.'s founder. The prescribed reading-list for O.T.O. members included G. Herman's work called Genesis - das Gesetz der Zeugung (Genesis - the Law of Procreation) which describes the production of a being "who is realized through the odic power of materialization, and which as odic mist streams from the vulvae, and under the traditional uterine influence easily forms child-souls." The alchemist Paracelsus described his formula for creating a Homunculus using blood and semen, and this has been compared to the consecrated hosts of the Spermo-Gnostics. In 1914 Aleister Crowley wrote his Xth degree instruction De Homunculo Epistola in which he described the homunculus, even though he was less than enthusiastic about it. It is quite possible that he had been inspired by Somerset Maugham, who had published a novel called The Magician in 1907, whose villain Oliver Haddo is based on Crowley; in the novel Haddo manufactures a mad homunculus by devilish arts. Similarly, Crowley himself wrote a novel in 1917 (not published until 1929) called Moonchild, in which sex-magicians create a speaking homunculus with astrological enchantments.

You are my Creator but I am your Lord

In the Saturn Lodges a definite connection was made between the subject of 'artificial astral beings' and Vampire mythology. The égregore and its incarnate 'tenant', the possessor of the highest degree in the FS, were fuelled by the vital sexual powers of all the lodge members. Both the FS and its successor the Ordo Saturni deliberately tried to creat a form of astral vampire, which they hoped eventually to incarnate as a being of flesh and blood. It was a reversal of the Christian Eucharist, where the congregation consumes the supposed flesh and blood of God, in the form of bread and wine. If one believes that Gods are the creation of Man, then it follows that an order-egregore is also a God. To succesfully create a Golem might therefore mean that with the Golem even a God could be vicariously destroyed; a dream of omnipotence realised. In the FS the office of Gotos permits a personality to be united with GOTOS UTUIT itself; the Outer Head of the Order (OHO) becomes the Inner Head of the Order (IHO). Deus est Homo - Homo est Deus, as was stated similarly (but unconnectedly) in Reuss and Crowley's Liber Agapé.
In the FS's magical system, the libido during sexual intercourse was transferred from the sexual partner to the astral égregore. In concrete terms, this meant all that heterosexual and homosexual activity was conducted with the use of wordshells/euphemisms (Holy, Logos, Saturn, etc.) to feed the égregore's vitality. These efforts to identify the Saturn Order with an (at least) astral Golem, a Homunculus, an image or statue brought to life, or else some other form of android to build up power, is quite different from the practises of other O.T.O. groups, who are effectively engaged in a quest for the 'Elixir of Life' in the form of psychosexual secretions to gain self-empowerment, or to contact spirits. Nonetheless, this has not prevented some membrs of the so-called 'Caliphate' O.T.O. from joining the Ordo Saturni; in the Saturn lodges this 'elixir' was mostly used for anointing the statue of the GOTOS.

Baphomet and the O.T.O.

The égregore has never been an important issue to other O.T.O. groups. As Marcelo Ramos Motta wrote: "the Egregora does exist in the so-called 'astral plane' and it is a demon, that is to say, an illusory entity. It is not a true Microcosm, but a gestalt of vitalized shells, a focus for everything that is negative, defeatist, maudlin, bigoted, introverted in human nature - a morass completely hostile to progress and to the spiritual evolution of mankind."
The publication of an earlier version of the foregoing sections in this essay caused some interest among members of the 'Typhonian' O.T.O. following the FS example, they duly devised what they called an 'Égregore Map' from various more or less Thelemic entities: Lam, Olun, Aiwass, Maat, Babalon, and the Beast. "It can be defined as the group spirit (super-consciousness) of all the members of a particular Order... It is analogous to the running of magical computer programs across a network of adepts or members, in order to access necessary gnosis and guidance from the Secret Chiefs. This can be done using these égregore maps because they express the laws of Creation and the Fall through their symbolism. They allow people to free themselves from the lust of result by the externalisation of the Holy Guardian Angel into the égregore."
The égregore is by definition a created soul (psychogon); according to Aleister Crowley it serves mostly to realise of wishes, and is consequently a 'helpmeet-spirit' who obeys the Holy Guardian Angel as in the Abramelin system. The 'Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage' (see illustrations 1 & 2 ) describes one method of attaining communication with one's guardian angel; every human being has an individual spiritual power, a divine mirror image called the Holy Guardian Angel, who restores a link to the divine for human beings engulfed in matter. Once contact with the Guardian Angel has been established - after six lunar months of asceticism and constant devotional prayer - the magician may then (if he dares) invoke armies of demons and servile spirits to do his will.
From the other side, it could reasonably be claimed that the guardian angel gets something in return. In the ecstasy of a human orgasm, the Angel attains a vision of the Universe as a continuous, unblemished phenomenon, where it is separated from the pure union of human with the divine; and thus the Angel finds wholeness in the human to whom it ministers.
Many FS techniques, like absorbing the libido from sexual partners may also be found in O.T.O. lodges. But in the OTO, the method is to transfer the libido's energy to one's own ego and its adjuncts. The Order becomes a substitute for the archetypal Mother, while its charismatic leader is transformed into a substitute for the corresponding Father-figure. This practice started with Carl Kellner, whose female followers wore a locket containing a photograph of him, and the lamen, or magical shield of the Memphis-Misraim Rite: a sphinx within a pyramid under a blazing sun. Kellner viewed his self-created office as Baphomet as descending from the Babylonian priesthood. However, in Richard Payne Knight's interpretation, Baphomet was an androgynous figure who united active and passive polarities. Kellner apparently did not accept Éliphas Lévi's diabolic interpretation of Baphomet, which Crowley was later to use in the 'Devil' card of his Thoth Tarot designs. Indeed, Crowley always described himself as Baphomet in connection with the O.T.O., and considered this to unite the offices of both Inner and Outer Head of the Order in himself - they were linked in the concept of the homosexual eleventh degree of the O.T.O. [This might explain the 'Caliph' William Breeze's assumption of the XIth degree]. It is not known whether he ever tried to bring an image to life (except the skeleton he fed with blood at his Chancery Lane 'Black Temple'), or to use Baphomet as an égregore in the FS sense. Certainly, when his follower Jack Parsons tried to create a homunculus with the aid of sex-magic (and the founder of Scientology, Lafayette Ronald Hubbard), Crowley reacted angrily, calling the affair "nonsense".
Crowley, alias Baphomet XI°, assumed the rôle of an idealised father-figure in his rescension of the O.T.O. By idolising Crowley/Baphomet in this way, his followers nurtured precociously regressive sadistic and anal attitudes, which tended to be acted out in the form of oral aggression, as a consequence of a significant upset of the balance between fantasy and reality. As the central idol of the Crowleyan O.T.O. there stood a golden phallus, with which the sex-magician was meant to identify himself in the form of an ejaculating penis. In O.T.O. groups of this school there is little possibility of using such phallocentric and narcissistic behaviour as a way of obtaining solitary communion with an égregore. Energies liberated in this way would generate 'disorder' in 'practicing' individuals (at least in the higher degrees). The imitation of Crowley's biography stimulates dramatic relationships and drug-addiction. There is no Gnosis here. No, not even here, where a Gnostic sense of an intolerable existence is reflected in several different O.T.O. Orders all at war with each other; these merely show that there is a yawning void between the 'rotten places' and the Pleroma.
With these O.T.O.'s, the light at the end of the tunnel for seekers is the corpse-light glimmer from carefully contrived schemes and inducements towards sensuality and self-indulgence; it shines on a mouthful of semen, and illuminates no more than ready-made images, images which are endlessly imitated, regurgitated and thoroughly manufactured.

Interesting post ES
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Old 21-04-2008, 11:35 AM   #71
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Stranded Bishops

Halfway considering the duties of the Manichaean Elect (to concentrate the Light, the sparkling leftover when the Logos spermatikos left man, imprisoned in matter, by consuming such foods) Crowley neglected the ascetic aspect of Manicheism (who avoided activities which would tend to disperse that Light) but concentrated upon building up a brilliant Body of Light fitted for return to the Blessed Realm. (37*)
For his Holy Host Crowley gave a recipe using blood and sperm. (38*) In order to avoid a HIV-infection the current American O.T.O. (the 1977- founded "Caliphate") advises to bake the host at 160 degree Fahrenheit in the oven. (39*)
The IXth becomes a parody of the Christian Eucharist with further refinements of the techniques related to the consumption of the Elixir/Host. Absorption occurs through the mucous membrane of the roof of the mouth, rather than swallowing it because the delicate protein fabric enveloping the essence will get broken down by the acids of the digestive system before it has had a chance to integrate into the mind-body symbiosis. In the case of the mouth there is the digestive activity of the saliva. This must also affect the "delicate protein fabric enveloping the essence" to some degree, the longer it is kept in the mouth.
In 1983 this new O.T.O. group decided "that at the 9* level there are no politics. It is an autocratic structure. The qualifications of the 9* are only significant to the 9*. Their qualifications are only of interest to other 9*." [Minutes of the 28 March 1983 meeting]

The "Caliphate"-"Gnostic Church" also parodies the Roman Catholic traditions in introducing offices like "Patriarch", "Archbishop", "Bishop", (Novitiate) "Priest"/"Priestess" and "Deacon" (Priest and Deacon already appear in Reuss/Crowley's Gnostic Mass of the 1910s) (21*). Nowadays, they offer services like: Baptism Ceremony for a Child, Baptism Ceremony for an Adult, Confirmation Ceremony, Ceremony for Ordination of a Deacon, A Wedding Ceremony, A Ceremony for a Greater Feast for Death, A Basic Exorcism Rite (there seems to be a growing emphasis on exorcism), A Ceremony for Visitation and Administration of the Virtues to the Sick; they have a Saintship (no woman appears on this list) and Animal Benefictions [once at http://www.scarletwoman.org/soter/beastb.htm].(43*)
Christian prayers are attached also to the "Caliphate"-V*-ritual: "The Litany of the Holy Name of Jesus", "The Litany of St. Joseph" and "The Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary". This is to be taken as reference to the Aeonic Magus of the LAST Aeon, as a reminder that these Great Cycles build each upon the others ... also that the True Master was not at all the political hatchet job made of Him by Paulism. These prayers (that is, the initiation rituals) are accompanied by music of Mozart, Holst, Strauss, Mahler and the like. (44*)
Obviously unaware of the traditional meaning of the expression "Wandering Bishops", some of their "bishops" call themselves "Landed Bishops".




Clotted Chakras

The Ordo Templi Orientis was, and still is, a secret part of the ethnological underground of civilisation that seeks acceptance through the mainstream culture. At the bottom of that dark well, lies only a mouthful of sperm. Because this fact is too simplistic, and maybe to shameful; it is wrapped into many "word shells"/euphemisms. While the ancient Gnostics headed directly towards the religious technicalities of dealing with sperm (avoiding ejaculation or consuming the sexual fluids); the modern Gnostics promote innumerable traditional ways, in Eastern and Western traditions, of salvation outside spermo-Gnosticism; (45*) only to hide the sperm in the inner sanctuary of their organisazion. (46*) Also the crack in the universe is attempted to be healed with sacrifices, liturgies, chants, and consecrations. But the mystery has gone astray: there is too much materialism in the O.T.O.-groups; and this tears the seeker down to earth, and hinders him from becoming one with the Divine. After many years of paying membership fees; and after having bought their beloved leaders' books; and even after they already know the "secret": one day an O.T.O.-member may discover by accident or suffering experience, that the order's scheme of salvation has not brought Gnosis. Because the pseudo-masonical Ordo Templi Orientis has such a complex grade structure, (47*) taking many years to complete and to pay for, and blends the simple Gnostic doctrines of technical psychology with all the other religious tools and with the biography of their charismatic leaders; the organisazion itself becomes an intensely "rotten place". Unfraternal behaviour between members, inflated egos, (48*) lying, game-playing, subterfuges and hysteria; cause endless splits, in-fights and even court proceedings. All this compounded together can make the O.T.O. an almost unbearable place.
Aleister Crowley's O.T.O.-groups are filled up with his concept of Thelema: a new scheme to sort out History, Religion, Philosophy, Magick and everyday life. (49*) A lot of Crowley-O.T.O.-members do not feel that sperm only transports the Holy Logos. (50*) This originally is considered a misunderstanding of the process of procreation. With the advance of Science, they assume that both the male and the female are both equally responsible for procreation. Nevertheless they follow the qabalistic sense of the male seed as the Logos to a certain extent: the woman functions as the "giver of form." (51*) Gnostic doctrines are modified in Thelema as the doctrine of True Will: that every man and woman has a "reason" to be here: that they have "chosen" to descend into this rotten place, that they have a mission to accomplish, which they have forgotten. It is their task not simply to escape, but also to remember why they came, and to fulfill this function. (52*) Nevertheless, Thelema itself seems to radiate decay. (53*)



Lot's more here


http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/spermo.htm




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Old 21-04-2008, 11:52 AM   #72
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Interesting post ES
..................

Fascinating
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Old 21-04-2008, 01:32 PM   #73
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would you please give it a rest.... If I call you ignorant, that is not calling you names... it is expressing how I feel you are not aware of much...

If I was to call you a "Prick" ...or a "Turd" then that would be calling you names.... Grow up.


If somone does not understand something, is there really any point in arguing?.... you whole understanding on the occult is compleatly off track so how can one expect you to come close to understanding anything about Crowley...
I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT IT, I AM PROVIDING ALTERNATIVE INCITE FOR ANYONE ELSE INTERESTING IN LEARNING ABOUT HIM....

THINK WHAT YOU LIKE, I DONT CARE.

the way you and others are banging on and throwing your toys out of your pram because of this is one of the reasons I first started to show an interest in Crowley to start with...

I think I am big enough to look after my self and I feel I am mature enough to read Crowley works.

If you dont want to, then dont!.
..................

Only if you will!

jeez, this coming from someone who knows less than me.

TW if you know anything worth knowing let's have it.........tell us all about Crowley and the occult and how it's used etc...Prove why you think you're on the right track. ( prob better to start a new thread named Guru Wave imparts his wisdom )

I asked you these question almost a year ago and you still haven't come up with a decent answer....( and don't start bullshitting and having a go at me when you reply.... because of your lack of knowlege and experience. If you do start having a go at me this will be my last reply too you)

Last edited by manchurian_candidate; 22-04-2008 at 02:18 PM. Reason: Off topic. Discussing an ex- forum member
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Old 21-04-2008, 02:12 PM   #74
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No!!, Im not going to tell people what to think, its up to them... I would just advize people to not take your word for it... and I have stated my reasons why.

I will advize them to read some of Crowleys own stuff... and judge him from face value.... Do I want to give someone a whole education on what I feel the occult is about in order for them to see him in a different perspective...no, I will just leave it up to them.

You know very little about the occult and your embarrassing attempts to attack Tsarion with it exposing nothing but your self.




Hu? .. LOL, me not answering you...

Im still waiting to find out why you are not a christian... Im still waiting to find out what those icons means in your Evidence about Tsarion....

What on earth have I not answered??. You ask me what I think of the occult.. I have told you many times... look at my sig!!

you ask me what I think Crowley's view on the occult was I believe in the last thread I posted more than enough and I believe that DB has provided even more text here from the words of the man him self... and you come up with some crap about me not answering????

I am not buying your research, I would advise others see for them selves....

Does this sound like disinfo to you??? ..asking people to judge the tree by its fruit rather than have you tell them what its like?





LOL, o give it a rest about bloody Nuit!, she gave you a prick tease mate, some girls tend to do it... get over it!

so now all crazy tricksters on the net are Crowley followers...

I don't go around doing that thing.... neither do other people I know, so there is your claim shot down in flames fight there!

You are a typical Christian too trapped in your ridged belief system to contemplate anything else.... and too hung up on your rule book to learn anything.... your who view on the occult and anything out side of Christianity for that matter is contained with in 4 small walls.

If you want to see this stuff as evil and satanic then you are free to do so.... Im not trying to change your mind... I am merely offering another perspective to people, they can still read his work and come to the same conclusion as you do if they so wish.... what's the problem?

I think people should be free to make their own judgement without being forced to except all your google links as the whole story an nothing but the truth... AND even have you try to tell them that his own words were not even his, as usual purely based on what you want to believe. You want to talk about agendas!???
..........................

Like I thought you have no knowledge and missed my points entirely one was this...."No one knows for certain what texts/books are the originals written by AC, how much has been added taken away etc. You're basing your view on faith if you think your getting the original texts."


And failed to answer any questions. You've just spread more lies about me and jumped to insanley deluded conclusions about me being something like a fundamentalist Bible worshipping Christian ( ILL SAY IT AGAIN for the last time I'm not at all religious nor do I follow any religion ) I know who and what I am and it's nothing like what you think.
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Old 21-04-2008, 02:40 PM   #75
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..........................

Like I thought you have no knowledge and missed my points entirely one was this...."No one knows for certain what texts/books are the originals written by AC, how much has been added taken away etc. You're basing your view on faith if you think your getting the original texts."
another typical ignorant and in fact arrogant approach us usual from the Christian perspective..... Because you seem to have this big desire to make sure that the man is seen in the same light as a certain perspective see him as, so much so that you will even just pick up a random accusation from thin air and expect others to run around looking for evidence to show how full of crap it is....

If you have any info on false texts created for Crowley, then lets see it... if not I really will not waste my time with you on that.

I can also ask you to prove that much of the info you have sent has not also been manipulated and created for the required effect.

We can only go by the texts of Crowley available to us...his books and other things he was involved with....so on....

who ever has written them has been very effective because many people have been interested in them, including very inspirational people. I am recommending people research these texts and judge him on face value other than be influence by others views on him.... of course people can then choose to never read his books again if they so wish...

I would like to point out it is you who is objecting to this.... I have no problem if people don't like him but I do have a problem with not being able to offer an alternative view.




Quote:
And failed to answer any questions.
Hu??


Quote:
You've just spread more lies about me and jumped to insanley deluded conclusions about me being something like a fundamentalist Bible worshipping Christian
No I did not, I have said that I think you are a Christian...never said anything about you being a fundamentalist Bible worshipper.... I believe you are simply a Christian who has a judgement that is influenced by the bible. If you are not then I think you have simply been sucked in by the info and education created by it.


Quote:
( ILL SAY IT AGAIN for the last time I'm not at all religious nor do I follow any religion ) I know who and what I am and it's nothing like what you think.
The fact that you defend Christianity at every given moment and that you share the exact same beliefs and short comings in terms of understanding anything outside of it, leads me to believe you are simply not being honest now and like a good few on the net, like to keep it hidden, (as "we just don't understand").

Although if for some odd reason you are not a Christian ... Why?
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Old 21-04-2008, 03:10 PM   #76
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All this Crowley bashing amuses me immensely. There's alot of speculation about him but is any of it actually true? Is it a case that if things are said enough that they become true?
I had a conversation with someone I work with about Crowley recently and he was shaking his head and saying things like 'ooh Crowley was, ooh I dont know, he was evil and did all these bad things, and wotisname from Led Zeppelin is a follower etc etc' and he was shaking his head as if Crowley was THE most evil man that ever existed. Which of course is utter tripe. I asked him how he knew all this and he said he had just heard people talk about him in the past. So basically that formed his opnion right from the off never to be questioned or investigated.
I used to have that opinion to. Then I started to read Robert Anton Wilson books and Tim Leary books, both of which were heavily into Crowley, RAW being an Outer head of the OTO for a while. Are both these men evil, blood drinking, child sacrificing, Illuminati brotherhood manipulators? Of course not.
Since these 2 free-thinkers are my heroes and in my opinion a credit to humanity I thought that there must be more to this Crowley fella than what I had previously considered, and that was mainly he appealed to miserable Goths in their late teens who listened to Tool ot Therion or some other dodgy theatrical metal band.
I started to buy Crowleys books starting with the Book of the Law and trauled the internet downloading and printing alot of his less known and hard to find writings. I bought Crowley related books by Israel Regardie and Lon Milo Duquette and others. I read as many biogs as I could find some of which were bias towards or against him. Then I got hold of Perdurabo by Richard Kascinski and out of all the boigs I have ever read about Crowley I would say it the most well research, balanced and in depth biog of Crowley ever written. It stays away from the sensationalist stuff that is bandied about and sticks to what is actually know to be true about the man.
Another thing that strikes me about those that are either Thelemites or follow Crowleys work in some way is that they are without doubt, good honest people who absolutley never ever impose their will upon others.
I know a few Thelemites and theyre great people to be around and they never take themselves too seriously. As far as I can tell, thats not come from the influence of some evil satanic, child murderer who had a hand in starting WW2 or was the father of Barbara Bush.
Do what thou wilt shall be the hole in the floor
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Last edited by mondo23; 21-04-2008 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 21-04-2008, 03:20 PM   #77
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To go slightly off topic, anyone had any experience with the Goetia? I have it on my bookshelf just to add to my 'evil' collection of 'satanic' Crowley books but have never taken it seriously. Ive heard from various people that it shouldnt be messed with and from others that it has benefited them well and still from others that it has no value at all or that it is now defunct. I'd like to hear from anyone that has worked with it and what came of it.
Thanks.
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Old 21-04-2008, 03:21 PM   #78
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I bought Crowley related books by Israel Regardie
Although Crowley is not the main topic, Isreal Regardie's "The Middle Pillar" is a must read.
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Old 21-04-2008, 03:48 PM   #79
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Well, 33rd degree Freemasons and ( above as Crowley was ) are known for missleading the people. MI6 and the CIA pushed and promoted what you take as your heroes/influences. There's a saying "they give us our champions." And it's obvious for those here cannot believe or accept anything bad said about AC, too them it's all lies.

It was decided that the Culture Creators would push the New Age as far back as Blavatsky and the Theosophical Societies. Anyway check this little lot out follow the link to get a grasp of what I'm explaining.



http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...3&postcount=62





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Old 21-04-2008, 04:47 PM   #80
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Well, 33rd degree Freemasons and ( above as Crowley was ) are known for missleading the people. MI6 and the CIA pushed and promoted what you take as your heroes/influences. There's a saying "they give us our champions." And it's obvious for those here cannot believe or accept anything bad said about AC, too them it's all lies.

It was decided that the Culture Creators would push the New Age as far back as Blavatsky and the Theosophical Societies. Anyway check this little lot out follow the link to get a grasp of what I'm explaining.



http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...3&postcount=62


out of interest... AW stated in an audio once that he received some info from a Freemason friend of his.... Could it be that some of them are trustworthy?

I personally do not think that everyone associated with a secret society is evil... we certainly know that many are and we know all about an agenda they have yes, but I think there is more to it.

I also think that they have changed over the years as everything else has...
they to have become more contained and controlled today... like everything else.

The Freemasons hated Crowley and actually attacked him with Magick... and he was certainly no friend of the PTB. He was not really with good guys and not really with the bad guys.... it really is down to ones own judgement. He was much smarter than the freemasons and saw them as not much more awake that religious people..
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