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Old 28-07-2012, 05:11 PM   #1
the mighty zhiba
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Default Flight 77: Flight 93 + A Phantom Flight 11

Quote:
On 27 November 2009 PilotsFor911Truth.org published a simple fact about the flight of Flight 77 which makes a conventional hijacking scenario impossible - according to Flight Data provided by the NTSB the Flight Deck Door was never opened in flight. The status of the door was polled every 5 seconds from 12:18:05 GMT to 13:37:09 GMT, and each poll logged the door as closed.

No-one entered the cockpit of the plane during the flight, therefore it was not flown into the Pentagon by an Arab hijacker.

What caused Flight 77 to hit the Pentagon? Electronic hijacking is a strong possibility...
Quote:
Federal Aviation Administration records show he [Hani Hanjour] obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999, but how and where he did so remains a lingering question that FAA officials refuse to discuss. His limited flying abilities do afford an insight into one feature of the attacks: The conspiracy apparently did not include a surplus of skilled pilots.

However, when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took the slender, soft-spoken Hanjour on three test runs during the second week of August, they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172. Even though Hanjour showed a federal pilot's license and a log book cataloging 600 hours of flying experience, chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.

When Hanjour reapplied to the center last year, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn't think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997"
Quote:
"This guy could not solo a Cessna 150 ... and what I mean by solo is a pilot's first time out without anyone in the cockpit with him. It's the most simple, the most fundamental flying exercise one can engage in..."
Quote:
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
Outline of the 9/11 Plot

[Excerpt]

On December 12, 2000, [Nawaf al Hazmi and Hani Hanjour] were settling in Mesa, Arizona, and Hanjour was ready to brush up on his flight training [Brush up? He could barely fly a Cessna]. By early 2001, he was using a Boeing 737 simulator. Because his performance struck his flight instructors as sub-standard, they discouraged Hanjour from continuing, but he persisted.
It is alleged that Hanjour piloted a Boeing 757 in to the Pentagon.

Here are the stats of the Cessna 150M (which is heavier and slightly faster than the generic 150 model) training aircraft. To compare Cessna 150 and Boeing 757 stats:

Performance

Cessna 150M: Max speed 201km/h (109kt), max cruising speed 196km/h

Boeing 757: Max cruising speed 914km/h (493kt).

Weights

150M: Empty 458kg (1010lb), max takeoff 726kg (1600lb).

Boeing 757: 76,566kg Operating empty 57,840kg (127,520lb). Basic max takeoff 99,790kg (220,000lb) - extended range 115,665kg (255,000lb) or 115,895kg (255,550lb).

Dimensions

150M: Wing span 10.21m (33ft 6in), length 6.58m (21ft 7in), height 2.39m (7ft 10in). Wing area 14.6m2 (157sq ft).

Boeing 757: Wing span 38.05m (124ft 10in), length 47.32m (155ft 3in), height 13.56m (44ft 6in). Wing area 185.3m2 (1994sq ft).

http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-da...ts.main?id=138
http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-da...ts.main?id=101

Cessna 150:

0144183.jpg

cessna.jpg

Boeing 757

0117340.jpg

757-cockpit.jpg

With the above information to hand, consider a pilot (who had been refused further training due to his "sub-standard" ability (to fly even the most basic aircraft) attempting to execute complex flight maneuvers in order to re-direct to the Pentagon:

800px-Flightpath-AA77.jpg

Quote:
At a speed of about 500 miles an hour, the plane was headed straight for what is known as P-56, (protected air space 56) which covers the White House and the Capitol.

"The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." [NATCA]

But just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot [Hanjour] executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers' screens, the sources said.

Less than an hour after two other jets demolished the World Trade Center in Manhattan, Flight 77 carved a hole in the nation's defense headquarters, a hole five stories high and 200 feet wide.

Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm, possibly one of the hijackers. Someone even knew how to turn off the transponder, a move that is considerably less than obvious. [Washington Post]
So how does a 'pilot' with "sub-standard' abilities while flying the most basic of aircraft execute a maneuver in a 757 that had Aviation sources and air traffic controllers guessing was being performed by a 'trained pilot' or 'military' pilot?

Quote:
"For a guy to just jump into the cockpit and fly like an ace is impossible – there is not one chance in a thousand," said [ex-commercial pilot Russ] Wittenberg, recalling that when he made the jump from Boeing 727’s to the highly sophisticated computerized characteristics of the 737’s through 767’s it took him considerable time to feel comfortable flying. [LewisNews]
Is it pure coincidence that the above mentioned "fighter jet maneuver" steered Flight 77 both away from the Whitehouse (a much more strategic 'target' for a hijacker) and into a barely habited newly reinforced section of the Pentagon?

Why didn't the USAF intervene in the aerial acrobatics of Flight 77?

Why was Flight 77 allowed to enter strictly prohibited and protected airspace at all?

American Airlines Flight 11 impacted the North Tower at the World Trade Center @ 08.46

American Airlines Flight 175 impacted the South Tower at the World Trade Center @ 09.03

It is claimed that Hanjour took control of American Airlines Flight 77 between 08:51 and 08:54. At this time the North Tower at the World Trade center had already been impacted - the countries military would have been in a state of readiness and air traffic controllers would have been alerted to what (at that time) could have been a possible terrorist attack.

@ 08:54, Flight 77 began to deviate from its normal, assigned, flight path and turned south. Air traffic control would have been alerted to a problem. By 08:56, the flight was turned around and heading back toward DC, and the transponder had been disabled.

The FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) was aware at this point that there was an emergency on board the Flight 77.

The FAA were already aware that Flight 11 had crashed into the WTC and that Flight 175 had been hijacked.

Why wasn't military protocol engaged to intercept a plane which was off-route and inbound toward Washington DC, given the state of pl;ay and FAA awareness of plane hijackings?

Having been alerted of the second hijacking involving an American Airlines aircraft (Flight 175) and the hijacking involving United Airlines, American Airlines' Executive Vice President Gerard Arpey ordered a nationwide ground stop for the airline.

It's interesting to note that at this time, the Indianapolis Air Traffic Control Center, as well as American Airlines dispatchers, made several failed attempts to contact Flight 77, and that at the time where the airplane was hijacked, it was flying over an area of limited radar coverage. With air controllers unable to contact the flight by radio, coupled with a failed radar trace, it was suspected (and declared by one Indianapolis official) that the Boeing 757 had possibly crashed at 09:09.

Reiteration: Flight controllers suspected that Flight 77 had downed @ 09.09 due to it's lack of radar track.

However the status of Flight 77 changed between 09:16 and 09:26, when passenger Barbara Olson called her husband, and reported that the airplane had been hijacked and that the assailants had box cutters and knives. She reported that the passengers, and possibly the crew, had been moved to the back of the cabin and that the hijackers were unaware of her call. Previous @ 09:12, flight attendant Renee May called her mother, telling her that her flight was being hijacked by six individuals and they had been moved to the rear of the airplane. May also asked her mother to contact American Airlines, which she promptly did.

Armed with FACTS that the WTC had been impacted by Flight 11 @ 08.46, and Flight 175 @ 09.03, @ 09.26 the FAA and American Airlines were aware that Flight 77 was in the control of hijackers and inbound to Washington DC (posibly looking at a White House attack) and that America was under terrorist attack.

Why did the FAA and American Airlines officials not report to NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) Northeast Air Defense Sector to allert them to a likely terrorist hijacking, and why weren't fighters mobilised to intercept?

Dulles controllers detected radar trace of an aircraft as it approached Washington, turning and descending rapidly. Controllers initially thought this was a military fighter, due to its high speed and maneuvering.

Reagan Airport controllers then asked a passing Air National Guard Lockheed C-130 Hercules to identify and follow the aircraft. The pilot, Lt. Col. Steven O'Brien, told them it was a Boeing 757 or 767, and its silver fuselage meant it was probably an American Airlines jet. He had difficulty picking out the airplane in the "East Coast haze", but then saw a "huge" fireball, and initially assumed it had hit the ground. Approaching the Pentagon, he saw the impact site on the building's west side and reported to Reagan control, "Looks like that aircraft crashed into the Pentagon, sir."

The Official 911 report puts forward that a pilot of sub standard skills @ training was able to take control of Flight 77 turn it through 330-degrees, descending through 2,200 feet (670 m), execute a further 270 degrees and drop below radar and run at full throttle in close proximity to the ground to impact the Pentagon.

It has been suggested that Flight 77 was replaced by a military vehicle when it dropped below radar trace prior to 09.09, and that it was this military vehicle which impacted the Pentagon - given statements / affidavits from both Hanjour's training officials and Air Traffic Controllers, it seems likely that this is the case - it seems to hold more water than the official story which can be questioned intently with the facts given above.

Quote:
On the morning of December 1, 1984, a remotely controlled Boeing 720 transport took off from Edwards Air Force Base (Edwards, California), made a left-hand departure and climbed to an altitude of 2300 feet. ... The aircraft was remotely flown by NASA research pilot Fitzhugh (Fitz) Fulton from the NASA Dryden Remotely Controlled Vehicle Facility.
Previously, the Boeing 720 had been flown on 14 practice flights with safety pilots onboard. During the 14 flights, there were 16 hours and 22 minutes of remotely piloted vehicle control, including 10 remotely piloted takeoffs, 69 remotely piloted vehicle controlled approaches, and 13 remotely piloted vehicle landings on abort runway.

It was planned that the aircraft would land wings-level and exactly on the centerline during the [Controlled Impact Demonstration], thus allowing the fuselage to remain intact as the wings were sliced open by eight posts cemented into the runway.
Sources:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hanjour.html


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Old 28-07-2012, 06:19 PM   #2
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No Hani, no plane, no flight box, no cabin door...
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Old 28-07-2012, 06:29 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mythmath View Post
No Hani, no plane, no flight box, no cabin door...
i think that sums it up

Wish i'd thought ot it
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Old 28-07-2012, 07:33 PM   #4
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Great information and great thread.
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Old 29-07-2012, 01:40 AM   #5
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Flight 77 Timescale:

8:20 am : 20 miles from the Pentagon. Flight 77 departs from Dulles Airport.
8:50 am : 260 miles from the Pentagon. Last radio communication with flight 77.
8:55 am : 300 miles from the Pentagon. Flight 77 turns while over southern Ohio.
8:56 am : 299 miles from the Pentagon. Transponder/radar contact lost.
9:33 am : 20 miles from the Pentagon. Unidentified aircraft reported heading to central DC.
9:38 am : 0 miles from the Pentagon. Crashes into the Pentagon.


Dules airport is 20 miles from the Pentagon. Yet, according to the official story, Hanjour and his fellow terrorists were on the plane for 35 minutes, waiting till Flight 77 was almost 300 miles from their target, before storming the cockpit to take the controls of the plane to fly it back to DC.

It would take jets scrambled from NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector minutes to be airborne and ten minutes to intercept an inbound plane to Washington DC.

Hanjour would have known of the possibility of military intervention - yet in waiting till Flight 77 was 300 miles from the Pentagon, he chose to run the gauntlet and fly for 43 minutes (into protected air space).....

Why did Hanjourwait to hijack the plane and risk possible military intervention?

Any sane plan for attacking the Pentagon would involve hijacking the plane immediately after takeoff, executing a tight turn about, and descend over two - three miles to impact the Pentagon before the US Air Force had time to be alerted and react.

Any sane plan would not suppose that the USAF had been stood down, or that a flight of 43 minutes over 300 miles would not be intercepted.

On the suggested route between turning and impacting the Pentagon, Flight 77 flew over several airforce bases - America was clearly under terrorist attack, Flight 11 had already impacted the WTC, Flight 175 was known to be hijacked and inbound to Manhattan, Flight 77 was rogue and inbound to Washington DC, entering some of the most highly protected airspace in America - yet the US Airfoce did nothing.

Quote:
http://www.historycommons.org/entity...defense_sector

Profile: Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS)

1990-2001: NORAD Regularly Launches Fighters to Intercept Suspicious Aircraft before 9/11

Fighter jets are regularly scrambled by the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) in response to suspicious or unidentified aircraft flying in US airspace in the years preceding 9/11. [General Accounting Office, 5/3/1994, pp. 4; Associated Press, 8/14/2002] For this task, NORAD keeps a pair of fighters on “alert” at a number of sites around the US. These fighters are armed, fueled, and ready to take off within minutes of receiving a scramble order (see Before September 11, 2001).
Solme questions:
  • Why wait for 300 miles before taking over a plane that began it's journey 20 miles from the target?

  • Why wasn't Flight 77 tracked by NORAD?

  • Why wasn't Flight 77 intercepted by NORAD Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS)?

  • Where is Flight 77?

    20010911-3-C-d-1-750.jpg

    b-pelouse_pentagon.jpg

  • Why sweep around to impact the Pentagon?


    flight77path.jpg


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Old 29-07-2012, 04:49 AM   #6
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Default This is where it gets interesting:

A lot of the information that the 911 commission gives us doesn't add up.

Quote:
FAA Awareness. American 77 began deviating from its flight plan at 8:54, with a slight turn toward the south. Two minutes later, it disappeared completely from radar at Indianapolis Center, which was controlling the flight.

The controller tracking American 77 told us he noticed the aircraft turning to the southwest, and then saw the data disappear. The controller looked for primary radar returns. He searched along the plane’s projected flight path and the airspace to the southwest where it had started to turn. No primary targets appeared. He tried the radios, first calling the aircraft directly, then the airline. Again there was nothing. At this point, the Indianapolis controller had no knowledge of the situation in New York. He did not know that other aircraft had been hijacked. He believed American 77 had experienced serious electrical or mechanical failure, or both, and was gone.

Shortly after 9:00, Indianapolis Center started notifying other agencies that American 77 was missing and had possibly crashed.

At 9:08, Indianapolis Center asked Air Force Search and Rescue at Langley Air Force Base to look for a downed aircraft. The center also contacted the West Virginia State Police and asked whether any reports of a downed aircraft had been received.

At 9:09, it reported the loss of contact to the FAA regional center, which passed this information to FAA headquarters at 9:24.140

By 9:20, Indianapolis Center learned that there were other hijacked aircraft, and began to doubt its initial assumption that American 77 had crashed.

A discussion of this concern between the manager at Indianapolis and the Command Center in Herndon prompted it to notify some FAA field facilities that American 77 was lost.

By 9:21, the Command Center, some FAA field facilities, and American Airlines had started to search for American 77. They feared it had been hijacked.

At 9:25, the Command Center advised FAA headquarters of the situation.
The 911 commission report details that between 08.56 and 09.05 no radar trace was available to track Flight 77.

Quote:
The failure to find a primary radar return for American 77 led us to investigate this issue further. Radar reconstructions performed after 9/11 reveal that FAA radar equipment tracked the flight from the moment its transponder was turned off at 8:56. But for 8 minutes and 13 seconds, between 8:56 and 9:05, this primary radar information on American 77 was not displayed to controllers at Indianapolis Center. The reasons are technical, arising from the way the software processed radar information, as well as from poor primary radar coverage where American 77 was flying.
So, where did Flight 77 go for eight minutes?

Furthermore after the radar trace was lost, due to various reasons, Flight 77 flew East, away from its design flight path for 300 miles before being picked up @ 09.32 by Dulles terminal control facility, minutes before it 'hit the Pentagon.' Remember that Air Traffic controllers, when observing the turn in and approach to the Pentagon, thought the radar was showing a miliatry aircraft: "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

Quote:
American 77 traveled undetected for 36 minutes on a course heading due east for Washington, D.C
Furthermore there is some confusion as to which plane was inbound to Washington DC from NORAD Northeast Air Defense Sector:

Quote:
NEADS ID2 = Senior Airman Stacia Rountree

BOS MIL = Boston military liaison Colin Scoggins

(Timecode begins 13:20:57UTC or 09:20:57EDT)

09:20:57 NEADS ID2: Huntress ID, Rountree, can I help you.
09:20:58 BOS MIL: Scoggins, military, Boston Center. I just had a report that American 11 is still in the air, and it's on its way towards-heading towards Washington.
09:21:06 NEADS ID2: Okay. American 11 is still in the air?
09:21:08 BOS MIL: Yes.
09:21:08 NEADS ID2: On its way towards Washington?
09:21:10 BOS MIL: That was another-it was evidently another aircraft that hit the tower. That's the latest report we have.
09:21:12 NEADS ID2: Okay.
09:21:12 BOS MIL: I'm going to try to confirm an ID for you, but I would assume he's somewhere over, uh, either New Jersey or somewhere further south.
09:21:19 NEADS ID2: Okay. So American 11 isn't the hijack at all then, right?
09:21:21 BOS MIL: No, he is a hijack.
09:21:23 NEADS ID2: He-American 11 is a hijack?
09:21:26 BOS MIL: Yes.
09:21:26 NEADS ID2: And he's going into Washington?
09:21:27 BOS MIL: Yes. This could be a third aircraft.
09:21:28 NEADS ID2: It could be a third aircraft going on to Washington. Do you have a MODE 3 [transponder code] on him, sir?
09:21:32 BOS MIL: No MODE3, we're trying to get an, a radial DME if I can. This is a report out from Washington Centre, you might want to get someone on another phone talking to Washington Centre, see if they have him tracked up.
09:21:39 NEADS ID2: Copy that. They-
09:21:40 BOS MIL: Then get maybe DC Guard or somebody up there on that, on the aircraft.
09:21:43 NEADS ID2: Okay, do you have a lat/long [latitude/longitude - position] right now on it?
09:21:45 BOS MIL: Uh, I'll try to get one.

09:21:46 NEADS ID2: Okay copy thanks.

http://www.911myths.com/images/norad...l_7_ID2_OP.zip
NORAD Northeast Air Defense Sector discuss Flight 11 as being hijacked and inbound to DC, despite the fact that Flight 11 impacted the WTC @ 08.46.

Why are NORAD Northeast Air Defense Sector in confusion over this matter?

@ 09.21 (35 mins after Flight 11 had crashed into WTC) Boston military liaison Colin Scoggins tells NORAD Northeast Air Defense Sector that Flight 11 is hijacked and inbound to Washington DC.

Ok, so he was perhaps confused and under stress: America was under attack, Flight 77's transponder was switched off.


Phantom' Flight 11'

Quote:
...at 9:21 AM the FAA informed NORAD - according to the Commission - that a "hijacked" Flight 11 (not Flight 77) was "heading into Washington," prompting NORAD to send scramble orders at 9:24 AM to Langley Air Force Base. The Commission is "unable to identify the source of this mistaken FAA information." Langley fighters were then reportedly airborne at 9:30 AM. Moreover, NORAD was not informed by the FAA at all about the purportedly lost Flight 77 until 9:34 AM - 4 minutes before it crashed into the Pentagon.

This entire narrative is not only internally incoherent, but in contradiction to other authoritative accounts. For instance, the FAA clearly knew that a third plane was hurtling towards Washington, DC. But if controllers were not able to find Flight 77 on their primary radar such that the flight was effectively "lost," what radar data was being monitored by the FAA proving that a phantom "Flight 11" was speeding towards Washington, DC?

Clearly, the FAA must have been monitoring the hijacked flight headed towards Washington, DC - Flight 77. Furthermore, given that the FAA was well aware that Flight 11 had already crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center, how could it have been presumed to have been the same flight now heading toward Washington, DC?
Quote:

NEADS ID2 = Technical Sergeant Shelley Watson

WAS OP = Washington ARTCC Operations Manager
NEADS ID3 = Master Sergeant Maureen Dooley

(Timecode begins 13:31:36UTC or 09:31:36EDT)

13:31:36 UTC - NEADS ID2: Open line. Huntress ID, unsecure line.
31:39 - WAS OP: Huntress ID this is Washington Center the Operations Manager.
31:42 - NEADS ID2: Go ahead sir.
31:43 - WAS OP: Okay, I guess you called here a couple of times, you never talked to me, but if there's anything you need or anything I can help you with let me know what it is right now please.
31:52 - NEADS ID2: Okay, do you want me to let you know what we have going on sir?
31:55 - WAS OP: Yes but- I have a pretty good idea, but yes.
31:57 - NEADS ID2: Okay, there's three aircraft missing out of Boston. I just spoke with Boston and they said they're not sure of the third aircraft callsign, but they do have two; one of them is United 175, the other one is American 11.
32:05 - WAS OP: Uh huh. Right.
32:07 - NEADS ID2: They thought that the American 11 was the aircraft that crashed into the World Trade Center with the United 175, however American 11 is not the aircraft that crashed. He said the pilot on American 11 was talking to him; having a rough time telling him what was going on, there were threats in the cockpit being made - this was the initial hijack information that we got American 11 the 767 from Boston to Los Angeles. Proposed route he was headed towards JFK at the time that they lost contact but that was not the aircraft headed into the World Trade Center, that hit it.
32:39 - WAS OP: Okay.
32:39 - NEADS ID2: That's what Boston's saying. He- the last known, and I'm not sure where we heard it through the grapevine, people calling, is that American 11 was headed for Washington, and that's the only thing-
32:49 - WAS OP: Was headed towards where?
32:50 - NEADS ID2: Washington.
32:51 - WAS OP: Okay.
32:51 - NEADS ID2: So your AOR. And I just wanted to give you a heads up. The last-
32:54 - WAS OP: Okay, now- okay, go ahead.
32:56 - NEADS ID2: The Last known lat long that we had, primary target only, was 4038 north 07403 west on American 11.
33:08 - WAS OP: Okay.

33:08 - NEADS ID2: But again, remember nothing has been confirmed as far as which aircraft has hit the World Trade Center, but the other one we have is information headed towards Washington.
33:16 - WAS OP: Okay, now let me tell you this; I- I'll- We'll be looking, we've also lost American 77.
33:21 - NEADS ID2: American 77? Where was he proposed to head sir?
33:23 - NEADS ID3: American 77's lost - American 7 7.
33:25 - WAS OP: Excuse me?
33:26 - NEADS ID2: Where was he proposed to head sir?
33:28 - WAS OP: Okay, he was going to LA also.
33:30 - NEADS ID3: He was also going to LA.
33:32 - WAS OP: Now-
33:33 - NEADS ID2: From where, sir?
33:34 - WAS OP: Ah, I think he was from Boston also.
33:36 - NEADS ID3: Boston to LA.
33:36 - WAS OP: Now, listen, now let me tell you this story here. Indianapolis Center was working this guy-
33:43 - NEADS ID2: What guy?
33:44 - WAS OP: American 77.
33:45 - NEADS ID2: Okay.
33:46 - WAS OP: At flight level 350 however they lost radar with him, they lost contact with him, they lost everything, and they don't have any idea where he is or what happened. So what we've done at the surrounding centers here is to tell everyone to look out for limited codes, primary targets, or whatever the case may be.
34:04 - NEADS ID2: Okay.
34:05 - WAS OP: And that was the last time- that was about fifteen minutes ago, since I talked to the Indianapolis Center Operations Manager.
34:09 - NEADS ID2: Type? Type aircraft?
34:13 - NEADS ID2: Do you have a Type aircraft sir?
34:14 - WAS OP: It was a seven-sixty-seven I believe.
34:16 - NEADS ID3: Seven sixty seven.
What we are seeing is:

A) a loss of radar data for Flight 77 and
B) confusion as to Flight 77's identity.

We may be able to excuse the later due to the extreme stresses involved at the time.

Whether the loss of Flight 77 on radar tracks is human error, equipment error or otherwise is certainly questionable.

Given

A) the lack of any corroborating evidence @ the Pentagon to show a commercial airliner,
B) doubt as to Hanjour's ability to pilot a plane,
C) scramble jets recorded no trace of an aircraft in the locale of the Pentagon @ 9:24

We might certainly ask what happened to Flight 77 during its dip beneath the radar scope and why it wasn't tracked by NORAD's scramble jets?

*****

Flight 77 was either replaced by a remotely controlled Boeing / drone aircraft filled with enough explosive to destroy it upon impact, or a cruise missile, while Flight 77 diverted.

But, why is it claimed that Flight 77 flew for 300 miles before Hanjour took the controls, why didn't he take the controls when the plane was 20 miles from the Pentagon, just after take off?

For the answer to that we have to look at Flight 93!

Flight 77 was never destined to be hijacked, never destined to turn 300 miles from the Pentagon (considering the idea that it did this one thing, alone, given that it began its journey 20 miles away from DC, is absurd), it was never destined to impact the Pentagon - its approach was all wrong, for a start, it was coming from the wrong direction, Hanjour was a poor pilot, at best, and NORAD have no trace of it over it's 300 mile approach.

It doesn't add up that Flight 77 attacked the Pentagon. It doesn't add up that it was meant to, it was 20 miles away from the Pentagon, sat on the runway, why wait till it was 300 miles away before taking it over?

Flight 77 wasn't meant to attack the Pentagon, that job was meant for Flight 93. But Flight 93 had a problem.

So, what of Flight 93?

Had Flight 93 departed on time, turned on time, then it would have lined up perfectly with the Pentagon and been close enough to attack it before US Airforce scramble jets could mobilse and intercept it.

Now it gets somewhat interesting.

Flight 93 is said to have been downed in Shanksville, but considerthat it shouldn't have ever been anywhere near to Shanksville, and should havebeen inbound to impact the Pentagon long before it was downed?

American Airlines Flight 93 was due to depart Newark @ 08.00 - it leaves Newark, some 40 minutes later than scheduled @ 8:41.

@ 9:36, 40 minutes behind schedule, Flight 93 veers off-course and turns to head for Washington DC.

Had Flight 93 departed on time, an estimate time to impact the Pentagon would be between 09.20 and 09.35, plotting a turn off-course @ 08.56.

If it had turned on time, Flight 93 would need to make a 90 degree turn in order to head toward Washington, but the elapsed departure time puts it way past its turning point, and Flight 93 turned too late - 300 miles from Washington DC, giving the USAF plenty of time to mobilise jets to intercept.

But jets were mobilised, and a plane was downed. Coincidence?

Really?



08.00 Flight 93 scheduled to depart Newark - (however: flight is delayed by 40 minutes).

08.20 Flight 77 departs Dulles airport.

08.40 Flight 93 departs Newark.

08.54 Flight 93 should have turned to come inbound to DC, it didn't, it was late.

08.55 Flight 77 turns, 300 miles from the Pentagon.

08.56 Flight 77 radar trace is lost.

08.56 Flight 77 is lost, radar ops are looking in the wrong place (they are looking at its designated flight line, West wards, away from where it was headed). Apparently. these are professional people, they can't find a plane, they are looking in the wrong place for it. C'mon!

09.30 Jets are scrambled (8 mins before Flight 77 finds its target) from Langley Air Force Base.

09.36 Flight 93 (having departed late) turns late, 300 miles (approx 36 minutes) from target.

09.38 the pentagon is impacted.

10.06 flight 93 (now surplus to requirements) is downed.

It makes sense that if Flight 93 was meant to impact the Pentagon, it should have turned earlier than it did, leaving a 90 degree turn-in and a short flight to the Pentagon, minimalsing a USAF scramble / intervention. Flight 93 didn't turn till 09.36, 40 minutes and 300 miles too late - NYC had already suffered obvious terrorist attacks, leaving a USAF scramble highly likely, since it was standard practice to scramble fighters to investigate large deviations from an aircrafts planned route - the late departure could not possibly be part of the original plan. The late turn-in of Flight 93 may be because it was under instruction from either a pre-programmed remote device or auto-pilot.

An alternative had to be pulled out of the hat.

The conspirators knew that Flight 93 was now out of the equation, they had known for over an hour - since 08.00 when Flight 93 did not leave on time.

Less than an hour later, @ 08.56 Flight 77 drops below radar trace and is lost to Air Traffic controllers - either a remote controlled drone or cruise missile is readied and dispatched @ or near to 09.35 from a locale near to Dulles airforce base to impact the Pentagon, Flight 77 is diverted - a rogue transponder code for Flight 11is sent out - either from the cruise missile or the remote control drone in order to smokescreen its ID. This confuses air traffic control who log the transponder code and id - USAF jets don't see Flight 11 (it isn't there, it's already crashed in NYC) - they don't see a plane, because it wasn't a plane that smashed into the Pentagon.

Flight 93 is still way of target, and is intercepted by Langley jet(s) and downed over Shanksville.

It's a crazy theory, i know: but the coincidences don't add up to a sane theory.

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Old 29-07-2012, 01:08 PM   #7
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Thumbs up No plane at The Pentagon on 9/11

^

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Old 29-07-2012, 02:15 PM   #8
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Awesome posts zhiba.

Just skimmed through it but will take a closer look later.
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Old 29-07-2012, 04:25 PM   #9
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So, in simple terms, this is saying there was no chance a plane hit the Pentagon?
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Old 29-07-2012, 05:12 PM   #10
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The doors being opened bit, how reliable is that?
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Old 29-07-2012, 05:42 PM   #11
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There is absolute tons of evidence in this superb thread showing that the Official Story is total tosh and an insult. The point quoted below on its own says it all. The Cockpit door was not opened, period. The data proves that beyond doubt. It is unquestionable. No arabs with Box Cutters where in that Cockpit, end of story unless of course they climbed out of the plane, then walked along the side with magnetic boots and then ninja'd in through the front windows.

Then when you add the fact that it is very obvious when looking at the photographs that there is no evidence whatesoever of any Boeing 757 even hitting the pentagon. There is no wreckage, no wing damage, no seats, no engines, nowt. Just bits of what could be anything.

Quote:
On 27 November 2009 PilotsFor911Truth.org published a simple fact about the flight of Flight 77 which makes a conventional hijacking scenario impossible - according to Flight Data provided by the NTSB the Flight Deck Door was never opened in flight. The status of the door was polled every 5 seconds from 12:18:05 GMT to 13:37:09 GMT, and each poll logged the door as closed.

No-one entered the cockpit of the plane during the flight, therefore it was not flown into the Pentagon by an Arab hijacker.

What caused Flight 77 to hit the Pentagon? Electronic hijacking is a strong possibility...

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Old 29-07-2012, 07:29 PM   #12
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This topgun simulator veteran kamikaze supercaveman was the chit tho, turning in a near perfect circle descending 7000ft in 2 1/2 minutes to level out & magically not even touch the floor with those big ass engines.

Even tho every report from anyone who trained him said he was basically useless & tons of real veteran pilots, say he couldn't have piloted that plane...we are all loons for daring to question the OS.
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Old 29-07-2012, 07:42 PM   #13
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Its blatantly bloody obvious.
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Old 29-07-2012, 09:44 PM   #14
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Flight 77 was never meant to impact the Pentagon. The proposition that its target was the Pentagon, and the claim that it turned 300 miles away from DC, to then fly back toward DC, (given that it had been closer for its entire 35 minute flight, and had started its journey only 20 miles away from the Pentagon) is insane.

Since it was standard practice to scramble fighters to investigate large deviations from an aircrafts planned route - that a turn 300 miles from target would leave a 30 - 35 minute flight back to DC, AND INTO RESTRICTED AIRSPACE, the possibility that military jets from Langley Air Force Base would intercept it would have been factored in.

No way would any sane plan involve turning a plane 300 miles from its target....

800px-Flightpath-AA77.jpg

..... especially when 35mins prior to the turn it was only 20 miles away from the Pentagon.

If the plan was to crash Flight 77 into the Pentagon, then Hanjour would have been storming the cockpit shortly after take off, a long sweep around and drop to the Pentagon from five - ten miles away, leaving no room for intercepting jets.

Hanjour's piloting skills have been heavily questioned.

Quote:
"This guy could not solo a Cessna 150 ... and what I mean by solo is a pilot's first time out without anyone in the cockpit with him. It's the most simple, the most fundamental flying exercise one can engage in..."
Air traffic controllers are on record as saying that the attacking aircraft turned like a military craft:

Quote:
"The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane," says O'Brien. "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." [NATCA]
Bar the questionable 'engine' and landing gear, plane wreckage is illusive on the ground at the Pentagon site. There are no wing marks. We're expected to believe that a rookie pilot flew at 550mph at a height of less than 20 feet, impacting lamp posts, without error.

Despite Flight 77 being lost to radar trace @ 08.56 it took Langley a further 34 minutes to air 'readied' jets - they were too late, the Pentagon was impacted 8 minutes later @ 09.38.

Jets were in the air to intercept a plane.

Flight 93 downs in Shanksville.

Flight 93 had delayed for 40 minutes on the runway.

Flight 93 should have departed Newark at 08.00, turned when directly North of DC at approx 08.55, giving it an estimated impact with the Pentagon @ 09.20 - 09.30.

That the conspirators (whoever they are) planned to attack the Pentagon with Flight 93, this much seems clear. Flight 93 is definitely in the mix, though its turn @ 300 miles from target, given that NYC had suffered two terrorist attacks would have drawn Langley's attention (which of course it did) - there was no way that Flight 93 was a serious contender in any impact scenario due to its late departure and turn time @ 09.36. there is no way that it wouldn't be downed prior to finding its mark, especially given the state of National wide alert at 09.30.

No sane plan would have it turning that late to attack the Pentagon - with the same scenario as Flight 77, it had been closer to DC so why turn it so late?

Flight 93 turned late because it had departed late, it was out of the picture the moment it left the tarmac, but the Pentagon still needed to be attacked.

'Ideally' (to the conspirators plans) Flight 93 would have turned @ 08.54, 54 minutes into it's flight: Flight 11 had already impacted the WTC at that time, Flight 175 hadn't yet found its mark, it's turn at that time would give it 30 minutes to fly to Washington DC. Due to it's late departure, @ 08.54 flight 93 had only been in the air for 14 minutes. It would turn @ 09.36, way off it's target turn and way of it's planned attack line of flight - 300 miles off.

The conspirators still needed to have something in the air that could get to the Pentagon without being compromised by Langley's response jets.

A cruise missile or rogue remotely controlled drone coming up on the Dules / NORAD / Washington ATC radar would need to be seen as something else to limit suspicion - ATC are on record as saying that Flight 11 was on route into DC, despite NORAD questioning the validity of the statement, ATC confirmed that Flight 11 was airborne and inbound:

Quote:
09:21:12 BOS MIL: I'm going to try to confirm an ID for you, but I would assume he's somewhere over, uh, either New Jersey or somewhere further south.
09:21:19 NEADS ID2: Okay. So American 11 isn't the hijack at all then, right?
09:21:21 BOS MIL: No, he is a hijack.
09:21:23 NEADS ID2: He-American 11 is a hijack?
09:21:26 BOS MIL: Yes.
09:21:26 NEADS ID2: And he's going into Washington?
09:21:27 BOS MIL: Yes. This could be a third aircraft.
Air traffic control and NORAD were logging a transponder code from Flight 11 - that plane had already impacted the WTC. Yet something was broadcasting Flight 11's transponder code.

So, what was broadcasting Flight 11's transponder details?

Something was. Clearly it couldn't have been Flight 11.

Remember that Flight 77 is off radar and out of radio contact, its transponder has been turned off.

The official report tells us that Flight 77 circled around the Pentagon, dropped from 7,000 feet to 2,200 feet and accelerated to full speed, dropping down further on the final run-up to less than 50 feet from the ground (if AA77 was hitting lamp posts as suggested then it was at least 20 feet from the ground) - again, any sane plan would not account so many chances of error into Flight 77's attack - it would have dropped either centrally into the Pentagon from height - causing max damage - or impacted the face nearest to it.

Flight 77 was never meant to impact the Pentagon, it was never meant to be in the mix - there are too many chances of error with a plan that turns a plane 300 miles from its target, while it's being flown by a novice pilot who is tasked with flying it with military precision, to circle the Pentagon and impact it at ground level.

That plan is insane.

Flight 93s design was to turn when it was directly North of Washington, fly the 20 - 35 minutes to DC and impact the Pentagon. What other plan could there have been for Flight 93?

The Whitehouse? It was still 300 miles from the Whitehouse, and turning at a time when the country would be in a state of heightened military awareness, there is no way that it would be allowed to fly for 300 miles undetected given that Nationwide alert status at 09.30.

Flight 93 was meant to attack the Pentagon, there is no other option that is remotely plausable.

It's likely that remote controlled drone aircraft or cruise missile was dispatched to attack the Pentagon - the lack of 757 debris tells us that whatever it was that hit the Pentagon was not a Boeing commercial airliner.

This late attack plan was readied between 08.00 - 08.40 due to Flight 93's late departure from Newark. Launch would have been prior to the launch of jets from Langley, and broadcasting a recognised AA transponder code. The jets were looking for a Boeing - they didn't see one over Washington, but found one over Shanksville.

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Old 29-07-2012, 10:27 PM   #15
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More great analysis zhiba. Excellent work.

It seems likely that it was some sort of drone or missile that hit the Pentagon. When you look at all of the evidence, that is what it all points towards.
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Old 29-07-2012, 10:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelve View Post
So, in simple terms, this is saying there was no chance a plane hit the Pentagon?
Yep, with a little deeper analysis to see why no plane


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Old 29-07-2012, 10:45 PM   #17
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Where can I find the NTSB data on their site?
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Old 29-07-2012, 10:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lobuk View Post
More great analysis zhiba. Excellent work.

It seems likely that it was some sort of drone or missile that hit the Pentagon. When you look at all of the evidence, that is what it all points towards.
Thanks lobuk.

i agree, it is unlikely that a plane hit the Pentagon, no evidence supports the claim the Comission and Official report have made.

i'm looking at the evidence that we do have, and asking questions - and when the answers don't fit, i ask more questions.....



We can't ignore the fact that Flight 93 was delayed, that on on-time flight plan would put it on target for the Pentagon, that a 300 mile attack route for UAF93 and AAF77 is implausable, that we have a downed plane @ Shanksville 30 minutes after Langley launched jets, that a wrong transponder code was being transmitted, ATC losing Flight 77 from radar, no major signs of a plane at the Pentagon, claims that Hanjour could not fly a plane, ATC seeing what looked like a military jet on their radar......

We can't ignore any of these things. But what we can do is piece the things together

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Old 29-07-2012, 11:03 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelve View Post
Where can I find the NTSB data on their site?
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/i...howtopic=18405

Or http://pilotsfor911truth.org/america...mpossible.html

The download link is at the bottom.

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Old 30-07-2012, 12:07 AM   #20
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i'm now looking into Strategies for pilots dealing with hijack scenarios, and what common strategy was in place prior to 911....

Flight 77 was being piloted by Capt. Charles Burlingame, a retired Military Officer with training in anti-terrorism.

Quote:
Capt. Burlingame's sister:
"If there was any chance of saving [Flight 77], this was the kind of guy who would have been able to do that."
Quote:
Burlingame enjoyed boating, in-line skating, and weightlifting, and was "in great shape," according to his friend Steve Brooks
Capt. Burlingame had flown Navy jets for eight years, served several tours at the Navy’s elite Top Gun school, and been in the Naval Reserve for 17 years. He was also a proud honor graduate of the Navy “Top Gun” school NAS Miramar... Capt. Burlingame had tour of duties in the Gulf War and vietnam, and while in the Naval Reserves had spent time working in The Pentagon.

He would have turned 52 on September 12, 2001.

Why did Capt. Burlingame hand over the controls of his plane to a 29 year old carrying either a knife or a cardboard cutter?

The pilots' number 1 priority is the safety of the passengers and his airliner. Number 2 priority is to get them to their destination, preferably on time.

Despite what we have read in the press, and what the 911 commissions report would have us believe, pilots don't just give up their airplane to someone with a knife...

Hani Hanjour was 5'5" - 5'6", he weighed 135lb.

People who knew Charles Burlingame will later contend that it would have required a difficult struggle for the hijackers to gain control of the plane from him.

His sister, Debra Burlingame, says, “This was a guy that’s been through SERE [Survival Evasion Resistance Escape] school in the Navy and had very tough psychological and physical preparation.”

Admiral Timothy Keating, who was a classmate of Burlingame’s from the Navy and a flight school friend, says, “I was in a plebe summer boxing match with Chick, and he pounded me.… Chick was really tough, and the terrorists had to perform some inhumane act to get him out of that cockpit, I guarantee you.”

Would a man who had served extensively for his country, had exceptional 'Top Gun' flying abilities and SERE training, hand over the controls of his plane to any hijacker, let alone Hanjour who is said to have been frail, skinny, and demure?

Would a pilot of Charles Burlingame's training and 'tough' persuasion be overcome by someone with a knife and box cutters?

His family do not believe that Capt. Burlingame would have given up his airplane, people who knew him say that he would not give it up without a fight - yet in the two 'calls received from passengers on board Flight 77, neither mention any struggle or fight in the cockpit.

So, what was the common strategy for hijack scenario's prior to 911?

http://www.historycommons.org/entity...s_burlingame_1

http://shoestring911.blogspot.co.uk/...ho-really.html

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