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Old 17-08-2010, 03:19 PM   #1
britishnick
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Default 300,000 sovereign citizens/ fmotl in the USA

Well strictly speaking this article says 'sovereign citizens' but you get the idea )

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38668124/ns/us_news-life/

The article only gives references to sovereign citizens who are 'bad people' and no mention of normal joe who just doesn't want th einteferance on govt.

Also interesting it says that 'pople believe this' or 'they think they are outside of state law jurisdiction' and references some people going to jail who claim sovereign citzenship, but involving shootings and the like. They never say it's a load of bollox.

Interesting it's hitting main news though. The numbers are growing, so as more and more stop complying with the system the more likely big govt will be changed for a more reasonable administration rather than restrictive govt.

nice.
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Old 17-08-2010, 03:21 PM   #2
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COLUMBUS, Ohio — They call themselves sovereign citizens, U.S. residents who declare themselves above state and federal laws. Many don’t register children’s births, carry driver’s licenses or recognize the court system.

Some peddle schemes that use fictional legal loopholes to eliminate debt and avoid foreclosures.

A few such believers are violent: Two police officers in Arkansas died in a shootout in May after stopping an Ohio sovereign citizen and his son.

As many as 300,000 people identify as sovereign citizens, the Southern Poverty Law Center found in a study to be published Thursday that was obtained by The Associated Press. Hate group monitors say their numbers have increased thanks to the recession, the foreclosure crisis, the growth of the Internet and the election of Barack Obama in 2008.
Image: James T. McBride
Jay LaPrete / AP
James T. McBride

Adherents expect the current American system of government to end one way or another.

“I’m the Patrick Henry of the 21st century. I’m here to regain our freedom,” James McBride said in a jailhouse interview. “I’m going to, or die trying.”

'Straw man' belief
At the heart of their belief system: The government creates a secret identity for each citizen at birth, a “straw man,” that controls an account at the U.S. Treasury used as collateral for foreign debt. File enough documents at the right offices and the money in those accounts can be used to pay off debt or make purchases worth thousands of dollars.

The movement is based on a form of “legal fundamentalism,” said Michael Barkun, a retired Syracuse University political science professor who researches anti-government and hate groups.
Image: McBride's Standing In The Light business office
Jay LaPrete / AP
James T. McBride operates the Standing In The Light business in Columbus, Ohio, providing information about his anti-government views in exchange for donations.

“These people really seem to feel that filing certain kinds of legal papers that are connected to their theories will somehow also magically have the power to alter relationships and grant things that otherwise would be unobtainable,” he said.

Experts say sovereign citizens are the latest manifestation of anti-government activists going back to the Posse Comitatus movement of the 1970s, which recognized only local governments and no law enforcement official with more jurisdiction than a sheriff. In the 1980s, government protesters exploited the farm crisis by selling fraudulent debt relief programs.

“In good times they focus on tax cheating, in bad times they focus on getting out of debt,” said JJ MacNab, an expert on tax and financial schemes and author of the SPLC report.

Martin Smith of Carthage, Mo., lost $8,000 to a father-and-son company in Columbus called Liberty Resources that pitched a method to eliminate credit card debt based on a theory that national banks aren’t authorized to issue credit.

“We just became convinced that each of the parts of the puzzle that Liberty Resources ... was telling us existed would work,” said Smith, 48, a civil engineer in Carthage, Mo.

Dan Wickline and his son, Chad, pleaded guilty in 2008 to conspiracy to commit money laundering and are serving federal prison sentences.

In April, a group called the Guardians of the Free Republics sent letters to governors demanding they leave office or be removed. The group’s website calls for the restoration of lawful government and an end to tax forms, vehicle registrations and marriage licenses. An e-mail to the group was not returned.

Jim Jarvis is Ohio coordinator for the Restore America Plan, which shares similar beliefs with the Guardians group. He maintains the country has lacked a legitimate government since Congress failed to adjourn properly in 1861.

The people who are crazy, he says, are those who won’t do the research to find out what’s really going on in the country.

100,000 hard-core believers?
The sovereign citizen movement has grown to about 100,000 hard-core believers, the SPLC report estimates, and 200,000 people trying out the theories by “resisting everything from speeding tickets to drug charges.”

The report cites IRS figures that estimated as many as 250,000 tax protesters in the mid-1990s, though not all of those were part of the sovereign citizen movement. The 300,000 figure is the first calculation of the movement’s numbers separate from tax protesters.

In May, Jerry Kane, who pitched so-called redemption schemes for reducing debt, died in a shootout with West Memphis, Ark., police after authorities said his 16-year-old son, Joe, fatally shot two officers during a traffic stop.

Kane’s Florida widow, Donna Lee Wray, denies her husband and stepson were sovereign citizens. She maintains a website that asserts they weren’t involved in the officers’ deaths.

In a 2003 document Jerry Kane filed in a county recorder’s office in Ohio, he said he was not a “Fourteen Amendment Citizen.” Many sovereign citizens believe the 14th Amendment created a new class of citizens, people who had no constitutional rights but were instead slaves to the government, according to Mark Pitcavage, investigative researcher for the Anti-Defamation League.

1.

Sovereign Citizens

Some of their beliefs:
* 14th Amendment citizens: Belief that the 14th Amendment created a class of citizens who had no constitutional rights but were instead slaves to the government. They also believe the government tricks people into becoming 14th Amendment citizens by signing contracts for privileges such as vehicle registration, Social Security and even fishing licenses.
* The gold standard and bankruptcy: Belief that the country went bankrupt in 1933 when it suspended the gold standard and no longer had collateral to back its loans. In response, the government, with the consent of state governors, secretly pledged current and future citizens as collateral. The government also set up secret accounts at the U.S. Treasury linked to the birth certificate number of each citizen. The value of the accounts ranges from $600,000 to $20 million.
* Straw man: Under a sovereign citizen theory called redemption, the government creates a fictional identity for each citizen at birth tied to the secret accounts. The identity is represented by a person's name in all capital letters. Often referred to as an "artificial person" or a "legal fiction."

Sources: Southern Poverty Law Center, Anti-Defamation League, AP research

McBride, the jailed sovereign citizen, came across anti-government beliefs while in federal prison in Michigan on a 1992 cocaine importing conviction.

Over the years he developed his own tenets, including a revised history of the United States that says the country was secretly organized as a general post office in 1789.

He dismisses any accusation that the programs he pitched were fraud, arguing he’s not subject to the laws of the U.S., which he calls a corporation along the lines of a car company.

“General Motor’s laws don’t affect me because I’m not an employee of them,” McBride said. “Same with the state of Ohio and the United States.”

Today, McBride is headed back to federal prison after prosecutors said he cashed bogus checks and refused to cooperate with his parole officers following a 2004 bankruptcy fraud conviction.

“I’m never going to have my grandchildren say, ‘Grandpa, why didn’t you do something to protect my rights?’” McBride said.

“They may say, ‘My grandpa died trying to protect my rights.’”
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vladmir "Being a Freeman [for me] dosent mean one supports anarchy or no government, but a legitimate and limited form of Lawful government is actually what freemen are seeking, not a corporate dictatorship that is currently hijacked into place."
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Old 17-08-2010, 03:46 PM   #3
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It's only going to continue to grow as the govt's become more oppressive with their laws.

More and more people are starting to question; where do they get their authority to tell me...?
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Old 23-08-2010, 06:10 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by irollaround View Post
It's only going to continue to grow as the govt's become more oppressive with their laws.

More and more people are starting to question; where do they get their authority to tell me...?
agreed...

More and more people asking question - brilliant. Bring on the tipping point!

peace
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freemanpete: "Freedom can't be spoon fed."
vladmir "Being a Freeman [for me] dosent mean one supports anarchy or no government, but a legitimate and limited form of Lawful government is actually what freemen are seeking, not a corporate dictatorship that is currently hijacked into place."
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Old 23-08-2010, 06:36 PM   #5
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Brilliant.
Mainsteam media announces the US has 300,000 "extremists".
Dumbed down resident, citizen, tax-payer and life long fluoride consumer, Dick Head, an avid watcher of Murdoch's Faux News curses at the screen ...

The Campaign of Terror steps in to a new gear.

False Flag 101 ... coming to a city near you ... soon.
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Old 23-08-2010, 08:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by yozhik View Post
Brilliant.
Mainsteam media announces the US has 300,000 "extremists".
Dumbed down resident, citizen, tax-payer and life long fluoride consumer, Dick Head, an avid watcher of Murdoch's Faux News curses at the screen ...

The Campaign of Terror steps in to a new gear.

False Flag 101 ... coming to a city near you ... soon.
yes thats the lable they seam to be portraying about freeman/sovereigns.
they are bad, killer, extreamists and above the law.


oh they are so fucking scared, cmon lets get this party started.


shite group but hey !
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Old 23-08-2010, 08:26 PM   #7
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That is what they want, so they can send you all to Fema camps and call you terrorists for being anti-Government, which will soon become an offense.

I will bring you food and smokes if I manage to clear customs.


Home sweet home.
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wouldn't it be terrible to never in your life have had anything important enough to risk it all for.

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Old 23-08-2010, 09:00 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by loveisthelaw View Post
That is what they want, so they can send you all to Fema camps and call you terrorists for being anti-Government, which will soon become an offense.

I will bring you food and smokes if I manage to clear customs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K9dgqKmJ50

Home sweet home.
What frigging FEMA camps? Seriously, quit reciting Alex Jones propaganda. Wow, you have a youtube video as proof.

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Old 23-08-2010, 09:11 PM   #9
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What frigging FEMA camps? Seriously, quit reciting Alex Jones propaganda. Wow, you have a youtube video as proof.
It was not proof of anything.... did I say it was proof, little kermit?

Humans have a thing called humor, something amphibians and reptiles lack. Don't worry, go lick a fly.

Yet on that note, are you saying there are no Fema camps? Got any proof, kermit?
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wouldn't it be terrible to never in your life have had anything important enough to risk it all for.

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Old 23-08-2010, 09:58 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by loveisthelaw View Post
It was not proof of anything.... did I say it was proof, little kermit?

Humans have a thing called humor, something amphibians and reptiles lack. Don't worry, go lick a fly.

Yet on that note, are you saying there are no Fema camps? Got any proof, kermit?
First, you're one one who made the claim that they want to send us all to FEMA camps, no me. Why do I need proof, you're the one making the claim backed up with the usual youtube video, I didn't make the initial claim so why don't you prove there is FEMA camps that we going to rounded up and put in, or don't make those claims.

As for the kermit comments, wow, going to result to name calling. Grow up.
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Old 23-08-2010, 10:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by lizardlover View Post
First, you're one one who made the claim that they want to send us all to FEMA camps, no me. Why do I need proof, you're the one making the claim backed up with the usual youtube video, I didn't make the initial claim so why don't you prove there is FEMA camps that we going to rounded up and put in, or don't make those claims.

As for the kermit comments, wow, going to result to name calling. Grow up.
Learn to smile and laugh, it won't crack your scales lol I never maid a claim, I said a joke, but you are too uber-serious!!

Your the one spouting on about proof, and taking everything seriously, if you want proof so badly then show us some, show that it is all fiction!!! Because I do not care 1 little bit about Fema camps, I do not even live in the USA - hence coming to visit with food parcels if I get through customs......

And I was not calling you names, I was commenting on your avatar, kermit.
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wouldn't it be terrible to never in your life have had anything important enough to risk it all for.

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Old 24-08-2010, 02:11 AM   #12
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I do believe you just got served Lizard.

You jumped down loveisthelaws throat because you perceived his/her comment in the wrong light.
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Old 24-08-2010, 02:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizardlover View Post
First, you're one one who made the claim that they want to send us all to FEMA camps, no me. Why do I need proof, you're the one making the claim backed up with the usual youtube video, I didn't make the initial claim so why don't you prove there is FEMA camps that we going to rounded up and put in, or don't make those claims.

As for the kermit comments, wow, going to result to name calling. Grow up.

Kermit is better than being a bad insurance salesman for Geico...
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Old 24-08-2010, 04:07 AM   #14
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I do believe you just got served Lizard.

You jumped down loveisthelaws throat because you perceived his/her comment in the wrong light.
Wow, gee, guess I'll leave the forums if I got "served". If you're fully sure I was actually served and a legal and lawful serving was given, well.....WTF are we, 12? He's the one who start rambling about FEMA camps in a thread that had nothing to do FEMA camps at all, but whatever, I got served. Grow up.
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Old 24-08-2010, 09:13 AM   #15
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loveisthelaw wrote:

Quote:
if you want proof so badly then show us some, show that it is all fiction!!!
This appears to be a new trend on here. Those firmly down the rabbit hole claim the existence of a thing and anybody who shows doubt is told to prove the thing does not exist. Wierd.
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Old 24-08-2010, 10:07 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by rumpelstilzchen View Post
loveisthelaw wrote:


This appears to be a new trend on here. Those firmly down the rabbit hole claim the existence of a thing and anybody who shows doubt is told to prove the thing does not exist. Wierd.
I believe micklemus explained it as the shifting burden of proof, which rather than being static, waxes and wanes.
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It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


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Old 24-08-2010, 10:31 AM   #17
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I do believe you just got served Lizard.

You jumped down loveisthelaws throat because you perceived his/her comment in the wrong light.

yes he sure did.

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Old 24-08-2010, 01:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by yozhik View Post
Brilliant.
Mainsteam media announces the US has 300,000 "extremists".
Dumbed down resident, citizen, tax-payer and life long fluoride consumer, Dick Head, an avid watcher of Murdoch's Faux News curses at the screen ...

The Campaign of Terror steps in to a new gear.

False Flag 101 ... coming to a city near you ... soon.
Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh - Look what happens when we don't clamp down on these anti-govt freedom terrorists!!!! you NEEEED US, pay more taxes you obedient little tax-monkey!!!! daance to my fearsome music

yup - taint them all as the baddies, it sells papers - it's for profit not truth. good numbers of fmotl though
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freemanpete: "Freedom can't be spoon fed."
vladmir "Being a Freeman [for me] dosent mean one supports anarchy or no government, but a legitimate and limited form of Lawful government is actually what freemen are seeking, not a corporate dictatorship that is currently hijacked into place."
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Old 24-08-2010, 01:51 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by rumpelstilzchen View Post
loveisthelaw wrote:
Quote:
if you want proof so badly then show us some, show that it is all fiction!!!

This appears to be a new trend on here. Those firmly down the rabbit hole claim the existence of a thing and anybody who shows doubt is told to prove the thing does not exist. Wierd.
EEeer that's not NEW... LOL It the whole original point of FMOTL:

Dear govt:
Do you have proof of authority?

No

Seeya you big meany!
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freemanpete: "Freedom can't be spoon fed."
vladmir "Being a Freeman [for me] dosent mean one supports anarchy or no government, but a legitimate and limited form of Lawful government is actually what freemen are seeking, not a corporate dictatorship that is currently hijacked into place."
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Old 24-08-2010, 04:17 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by britishnick View Post
Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh - Look what happens when we don't clamp down on these anti-govt freedom terrorists!!!! you NEEEED US, pay more taxes you obedient little tax-monkey!!!! daance to my fearsome music

yup - taint them all as the baddies, it sells papers - it's for profit not truth. good numbers of fmotl though
And yet it was The Guardian that brought the footage to light about Ian Tomlinson and put together subsequent evidence and dossier to investigate the police action. The Telegraph brought to light the politicians expenses scandal. No one in government tried to stop either papers from publishing but in the case of Ian Tomlinson, what is read is the truth because it fits your beliefs but anything you see in the paper that doesn't fit your beliefs - it sells papers, its for profit not truth
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Freeman code: You can live with no curtailment or infringement of your freedom PROVIDING you do not cause harm or loss to others. This is the law. Any transgression will be judged by your peers and dealt with accordingly. You are free but you are not free to do what you like but rest assured you won't be judged by anyone.
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