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Old 25-06-2015, 11:51 AM   #21
mightiswrong
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Well airbus believe that pilot error can be overcome by the autopilot making it impossible for an accident to occur. This has however not been very successful with occasions where planes have crashed because of the autopilot and pilots who don't know how to fly. There was for example an air france crash in the atlantic where the pilot was pulling back on the stick as the plane stalled and fell. Anyway this is technology supposed to make accidents impossible exactly like in zeitgeist movie.

As for the large scale civilisations I don't remember it needing to be large scale for it to be an example. The terminlogy is itself misleading since many so called hunter gatherer societies actually engage in agriculture. It doesn't need to be 100% money free for it to be an example either. Things like babysitting have become increasingly monetised but only some decades ago this was done without money so it is an example. Some relative or friend would do the babysitting. The reality in the world really is that great deal gets done without money considering that many people have so little money it can not be any other way but in the west it is thought that if it can't be quintified in monetary terms then it didn't happen.

Last edited by mightiswrong; 25-06-2015 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 25-06-2015, 11:56 AM   #22
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I hate business !
Then boycott businesses. Buy nothing from anyone, ever.
I hate money !
Then get by without using money.
I hate capitalism / capitalist !
Fair enough.

OP writes like a grumpy teenager and will probably grow out of it.
Like it or not - money and the money system is here to stay.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:09 PM   #23
decode reality
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Originally Posted by grandmasterp View Post
I hate business !
Then boycott businesses. Buy nothing from anyone, ever.
I hate money !
Then get by without using money.
I hate capitalism / capitalist !
Fair enough.

OP writes like a grumpy teenager and will probably grow out of it.
Like it or not - money and the money system is here to stay.
This. ^

When more creative people shift their focus towards using their talents to make money, as well as 'serving the muse', their situation will improve and they'll feel less of a sense of entitlement.

Successful businesses don't kill creativity either. They're using their creativity extremely effectively. How could they attain and sustain their position otherwise? Not that we should all push junk food like Macdonalds, obviously, but that's not the only model of success.

Last edited by decode reality; 25-06-2015 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by mightiswrong View Post
Well airbus believe that pilot error can be overcome by the autopilot making it impossible for an accident to occur. This has however not been very successful with occasions where planes have crashed because of the autopilot and pilots who don't know how to fly. There was for example an air france crash in the atlantic where the pilot was pulling back on the stick as the plane stalled and fell. Anyway this is technology supposed to make accidents impossible exactly like in zeitgeist movie.
ah Ok, sorry, I didnt read your post correctly, I get the technology improvements, but was thinking about the money aspect.

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As for the large scale civilisations I don't remember it needing to be large scale for it to be an example.
not saying any examples had to be large scale to qualify as examples, just asking if you had any examples of large scale money free civilizations is all.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:16 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by grandmasterp View Post
I hate business !
Then boycott businesses. Buy nothing from anyone, ever.
I hate money !
Then get by without using money.
I hate capitalism / capitalist !
Fair enough.

OP writes like a grumpy teenager and will probably grow out of it.
Like it or not - money and the money system is here to stay.
well if something is here to stay then no point complaining about it or discussing alternatives is there, best we cull 99% of the posts on this forum then, as like it or not, the current system is not gonna change anytime soon.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:22 PM   #26
mightiswrong
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not saying any examples had to be large scale to qualify as examples, just asking if you had any examples of large scale money free civilizations is all.
Well if you want to read about one here is a link. It is worth reading especially the wedding rite just to see how simple it is. It might not be proven as such to be real but quite possible that such a civilisation could have existed and there would be little archeological evidence since wood decays.
http://www.rivendellvillage.org/Book...es_Of_Love.pdf

The other thing is that a lot of archeological evidence is interpreted. They see a spear and assume it was used for hunting when it could have just been for defesnive purposes.

Last edited by mightiswrong; 25-06-2015 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:23 PM   #27
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When more creative people shift their focus towards using their talents to make money, as well as 'serving the muse', their situation will improve and they'll feel less of a sense of entitlement. .
yeah that's exactly what we need in the world, more people shifting their focus towards making money The exact opposite is actually what is needed, we already place far too much emphasis on simply making money.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by mightiswrong View Post
Well if you want to read about one here is a link. It is worth reading especially the wedding rite just to see how simple it is. It might not be proven as such to be real but quite possible that such a civilisation could have existed and there would be little archeological evidence since wood decays.
http://www.rivendellvillage.org/Book...es_Of_Love.pdf
yeah there may well have been early money free societies, but no historical records exist as far as I can tell, but of course that does not mean they didnt happen, little is really known about early civilisations.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:41 PM   #29
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yeah that's exactly what we need in the world, more people shifting their focus towards making money The exact opposite is actually what is needed, we already place far too much emphasis on simply making money.
Keep this in context. It's what people do with money that either creates problems, or...(don't be shocked now) solutions.

Someone ranting about how terrible capitalism is is NOT going to improve their situation by wishing the economic system would do a 180 degree shift, and unless they're physically or mentally impaired, they can better their situation without doing violence to their integrity and principles. That's all I'm saying.

And that really IS all I'm saying because I just think you're cherry picking things out of context to argue. Please speak to someone else if you wish to continue like that.

Last edited by decode reality; 25-06-2015 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 25-06-2015, 12:45 PM   #30
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Keep this in context. It's what people do with money that either creates problems, or...(don't be shocked now) solutions.
no I completely disagree, its people being focused on making money as their priority that is the root cause of much of our problems. Your suggestion that creative people should shift their focus to making money is the last thing we need. The world is full of people who are already focused on making money, we definitely do not need any more of them.

Last edited by nongeekywebdude; 25-06-2015 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 25-06-2015, 01:04 PM   #31
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I would think that a balance is needed. In this situation it can be a great inhibitor not to have available funds i.e. resources to make things happen where as there are others who do have available funds but are not prepared to invest them into projects that are not considered financially profitable whilst their true value is in excess of anything finacial. If someone is creative then should necessitate involvement in nature. Take for example some people are using paints that are highly destructive to the environment and falsely believe they are being creative when they are causing destruction.
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Old 25-06-2015, 01:54 PM   #32
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Posts #22 and #23 are examples of the current gatekeeper mentality:
"It was always like this,and those who want to see a change in the current
system are idealistic and should grow up,etc,etc" ...
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Old 25-06-2015, 02:45 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by nongeekywebdude View Post
no I completely disagree, its people being focused on making money as their priority that is the root cause of much of our problems. Your suggestion that creative people should shift their focus to making money is the last thing we need. The world is full of people who are already focused on making money, we definitely do not need any more of them.
It's about valuing yourself, because if you don't, then no-one else will. Others will expect you to do lots of work for either nothing or for a paltry sum. Now, if you or anyone else is happy to live like that, that's fine. But when things get tough, don't then complain about others being "too focused on money" because you failed to see how far you've gone to the other extreme.

Please re-read what I've said below (highlighted). I trust it'll make you stop attempting to imply I'm saying something else.

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The truth is, money is needed for anyone in any creative endeavour, otherwise you and your loved ones don't eat, have a place to sleep, and nothing to fund your creative projects - from travel, to hiring places, people etc.


When money becomes the main motor, yes that's when everything gets messed up but I see no other alternatives. Creative people are known for not being money driven, which gets exploited by other people who are. The creatives need to become more knowledgeable in business matters, and value what they're doing, without this knowledge coming at the expense of their creativity. It can be done and it's being done as we speak.
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Originally Posted by decode reality View Post
Keep this in context. It's what people do with money that either creates problems, or...(don't be shocked now) solutions.

Someone ranting about how terrible capitalism is is NOT going to improve their situation by wishing the economic system would do a 180 degree shift, and unless they're physically or mentally impaired, they can better their situation without doing violence to their integrity and principles. That's all I'm saying.

And that really IS all I'm saying because I just think you're cherry picking things out of context to argue. Please speak to someone else if you wish to continue like that.

Last edited by decode reality; 25-06-2015 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 25-06-2015, 03:20 PM   #34
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*waiting for this post to end up in the rant room*

Money does not kill creativity. Those who are driven to create will create, regardless. Yet, yes… money corrupts, but only if one lets it… so therefore -- and this is so cheesy, but nonetheless fitting -- "Be the change you want to see in this world."

True artists will perserve.
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Old 25-06-2015, 03:24 PM   #35
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*waiting for this post to end up in the rant room*

Money does not kill creativity. Those who are driven to create will create, regardless. Yet, yes… money corrupts, but only if one lets it… so therefore -- and this is so cheesy, but nonetheless fitting -- "Be the change you want to see in this world."

True artists will perserve.
Completely agree.
By the way, I hope it doesn't end up in the 'sin bin'. There's nothing contentious really.
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Old 25-06-2015, 03:58 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by decode reality View Post
It's about valuing yourself, because if you don't, then no-one else will. Others will expect you to do lots of work for either nothing or for a paltry sum. Now, if you or anyone else is happy to live like that, that's fine. But when things get tough, don't then complain about others being "too focused on money" because you failed to see how far you've gone to the other extreme.

Please re-read what I've said below (highlighted). I trust it'll make you stop attempting to imply I'm saying something else.
I'm not implying anything, I just happen to disagree with what you have said "ie shifting focus towards making money" - we can disagree you know, no need to throw your dummy out:-)
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Old 26-06-2015, 05:56 AM   #37
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I'm not implying anything, I just happen to disagree with what you have said "ie shifting focus towards making money" - we can disagree you know, no need to throw your dummy out:-)
Yes - making money so that they can have food, clothes and shelter, and fund their projects, to give you the full statement. It's good to take on board everything someone else has said rather than taking one quote and putting it into your own context, as you've done - again.

What do you have as viable solution? What practical steps do you have to share that people should be 'shifting their focus towards', if they want to improve their situation? We could all do with a few more real possibilities.

Suggest another option besides proposing alternative systems that have little chance of being put in place, or a catastrophic event that somehow sends us to Year Zero.

Last edited by decode reality; 26-06-2015 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 26-06-2015, 06:55 AM   #38
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Successful businesses don't kill creativity either. They're using their creativity extremely effectively. How could they attain and sustain their position otherwise?
There is a perception that creativity only applies to the visual and performing arts. This is wrong. Any problem solving also involves creativity e.g. mathematics, sport tactics, managing investments, dealing with conspiracy theorists etc.
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Old 26-06-2015, 08:07 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by decode reality View Post
Yes - making money so that they can have food, clothes and shelter, and fund their projects, to give you the full statement. It's good to take on board everything someone else has said rather than taking one quote and putting it into your own context, as you've done - again.
nope, what i did was take the part of your post that I particularly disagreed with and quoted it, I didn't take it out of context in that post, though looking back at your other posts I can see that you probably did not mean what I thought you meant

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What do you have as viable solution? What practical steps do you have to share that people should be 'shifting their focus towards', if they want to improve their situation? We could all do with a few more real possibilities.
I dont have a practical solution really, I dont think there are any "solutions" as such, its a matter of making the best of a shit system, which IMHO means concentrating on the important things in life, not focusing on money. The vast majority of people already have their focus on making money, its essentially forced on them, the last thing we need is more focus on that useless goal.

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Suggest another option besides proposing alternative systems that have little chance of being put in place, or a catastrophic event that somehow sends us to Year Zero.
as I said there are no other options, realistically, as far as I know. Even if people were to shift their focus away from money and consumerism on a large scale, that in itself would cause huge problems, a catastrophic event in financial terms, which nobody would really want to go through, so they will continue to prop up the current system and seek happiness through more money and shinier things. I think money should be treated as a necessary evil, nothing more than that, most people are already almost obsessed with it however
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