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Old 23-02-2019, 03:34 PM   #941
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what if you then found out that the ice cream producers were using an ingredient in their manufacturing process that was flushed out to sea which attracted sharks?

then you'd have to concede that there was a link
Yes, I would. But until then....

Likewise my edited post with the autism chart could suggest that people with autism by organic products, or that organic products cause autism. That's where science comes in, to prove or disprove a link.
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Old 23-02-2019, 03:38 PM   #942
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Yes, I would. But until then....

Likewise my edited post with the autism chart could suggest that people with autism by organic products, or that organic products cause autism. That's where science comes in, to prove or disprove a link.
but that process is deeply flawed:

The Crisis of Science

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Old 23-02-2019, 03:46 PM   #943
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but back to HAARP:

“Weather modification is possible by, for example, altering upper atmosphere wind patterns or altering solar absorption patterns by constructing one or more plumes of atmospheric particles which will act as a lens or focusing device.”
https://weathermodificationhistory.c...nard-eastlund/
That's all far to vague and 'what if' with no supporting evidence. The rest of the article just suggests it's future a posibility.

But it's OK. So even if enough energy to steer storms or just change weather could be generated, how would you dispatch it where required without it being detected by amateur magnetometers, ionospheric beacon monitors, ionosonds, disrupting all manner of communications, saturating VLF/ELF/MF/HF radio equipment?

(We're not really getting anywhere here are we? I just hope the silent readers are getting something out of it...)
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Old 23-02-2019, 04:06 PM   #944
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That's all far to vague and 'what if' with no supporting evidence. The rest of the article just suggests it's future a posibility.

But it's OK. So even if enough energy to steer storms or just change weather could be generated, how would you dispatch it where required without it being detected by amateur magnetometers, ionospheric beacon monitors, ionosonds, disrupting all manner of communications, saturating VLF/ELF/MF/HF radio equipment?
It IS being detected by amateurs:

Chris Fallen on Twitter @ctfallen

Are you in the SE USA or Caribbean? Consider tuning your radios to approximately 5.125 or 8.175 MHz starting Saturday 11/3 for the possibility tuning in the Arecibo HF campaign. Bonus for tuning ~50 microsec (?) ISR pulses (0.6% duty cyc) at 430 MHz, perhaps offset by the HF freq
— Chris Fallen (@ctfallen) November 3, 2018

Arecibo HF campaign pretty much all day and night through 11/9, mostly at ~5.1 MHz. When their local foF2 is up, try ~8.2 MHz?
I'm a frozen-in @uafhaarp guy but also must admit I'm just a little bit jelly @NAICobservatory can run high-power HF nearly 24/7 during their campaigns!
— Chris Fallen (@ctfallen) November 4, 2018

Past, Present and Future of Active Radio Frequency Experiments in Spacehttps://t.co/HfpKiqPrPp
— Chris Fallen (@ctfallen) November 5, 2018

Arecibo Observatory on Twitter @NAICobservatory

Use the #AOweek #Arecibo55 and make a video message sending “Happy Anniversary” from you and/or your research group to the @NAICobservatory pic.twitter.com/IyyGLY5XMP
— Arecibo Observatory (@NAICobservatory) October 25, 2018

HAM Radio and WebSDR’s listening to Arecibo

I've got a carrier at 5.125 here in Pueblo, CO DM78... but unsure if its #Arecibo transmissions. pic.twitter.com/TEcTPncI0F
www.SpaceWatch.US (KM0MMM) (@KM0MMM) November 3, 2018

Signal in SC pic.twitter.com/yjDuJCxjOU
— Paul Jones (@NN4F_Radio) November 3, 2018

Additional reports that #arecibo observatory HF campaign is transmitting pulsing signals on 5100 khz. I see those on/off carriers but unsure if it actually is Arecibo. #hamradio #radio #swl #haarp [email protected] pic.twitter.com/e3LIKyC2T6
www.SpaceWatch.US (KM0MMM) (@KM0MMM) November 3, 2018

And now, off again - now on ??
Merkours, if you have time, have a look at my video of a 31 july 2017 experiment with nice fireworks on the waterfall:https://t.co/fwGed0ShJV
— ???? Marco (@BlackApple62) November 3, 2018

Something I also have in JN53: just off now pic.twitter.com/85SdokI6Ue
— ???? Marco (@BlackApple62) November 3, 2018

Right now #AreciboObservatory is on 5100 kHz with 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off pulses #hf #ionosphere #Arecibo pic.twitter.com/cvzIJQT4aF
— HAARP_DXing_2017 (@HAARPDXing2017) November 3, 2018

Arecibo, I presume. #HAARP @ctfallen pic.twitter.com/CxOtgmQxQi
— Alex ??? N7AGF (@N7AGF) November 5, 2018
https://climateviewer.com/2018/11/05...mber-3-9-2018/

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(We're not really getting anywhere here are we? I just hope the silent readers are getting something out of it...)
well if they watched that clip i posted about space weather they'll have learned about a whole host of applications that ionospheric heaters can be used for

but the specific aspect we are trying to establish is whether or not you can impact the weather through using ionospheric heaters and i think the silent readers will have been watching me posting ways in which that can be done and you making vague dismissals without any hard data to back those up

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Old 23-02-2019, 04:37 PM   #945
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Study: Earth and Space Weather Connected
By Ker Than | September 12, 2006 11:02am ET

Space weather in the upper reaches of the atmosphere is affected by weather conditions down here on Earth, a new study suggests.

Using a combination of satellite imagery and computer simulations, researchers found that tides of air created by intense thunderstorms over South America, Africa and Southeast Asia are altering the structure of the ionosphere, the topmost layers of the atmosphere where space weather occurs.

The finding, detailed in the Aug. 11 issue of Geophysical Research Letters, is surprising because scientists didn't think the ionosphere and the troposphere--the lower part of the atmosphere where terrestrial weather happens--affected one another.

Scientists think it works like this: Below the plasma bands, a layer of the ionosphere called the E-layer becomes partially electrified during the day. High-altitude winds blow electrically-charged plasma in the E-layer across the Earth's magnetic field, creating an electric field.

This electric field shapes the plasma above the E-layer into two bands. Therefore, anything that changes the motion of the E-layer plasma also affects the electric fields it generates; this in turn reshapes the plasma bands.
https://www.livescience.com/7165-stu...connected.html
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Old 23-02-2019, 04:52 PM   #946
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It IS being detected by amateurs:
Maybe I didn't make my point clear. Yes, amateurs have for example, detected new military ELF and VLF signals. They've also heard HAARP (I have too, twice). It's Chris Fallen's posts that have alerted us to HAARP transmissions. My point is, the colossal amounts of energy that is required to steer storms - if you think that is even possible - would be so much so that it would not only be detected by amateur scientists, but probably saturate the equipment. No one would need alerts from Chris Fallen!

Just listing cases where amateurs have detected routine transmissions from HAARP, AreciboHF or anywhere else doesn't prove anything, other than they can do that. It's the point I made ages ago; we can detect this routine stuff. It's the multi megawatts of signal that will stick out like a sore thumb. None of these have been detected. No one to my knowledge has had their equipment damaged or even saturated by HAARP, or the Woodpecker when it was operating, doing what some would describe as their "dastardly deeds".


.

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Old 23-02-2019, 04:54 PM   #947
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but that process is deeply flawed:

The Crisis of Science


That's the point. When bad science gets repeated by lazy journals and non-rigorous 'academic' publications that don't understand statistical methodology, it eventually get exposed. There are lots of cases of this kind of mistaken, false, fake science being exposed. My experience of the scientific method is that it is generally (though sometimes painfully slowly) self regulating.

Confirmation bias and going against the prevailing paradigm must be guarded against. Just look how long it took to have continental drift accepted, despite the literally mountains of evidence! But we got there in the end...

Back on topic.
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Old 23-02-2019, 04:57 PM   #948
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Study: Earth and Space Weather Connected
By Ker Than | September 12, 2006 11:02am ET

Space weather in the upper reaches of the atmosphere is affected by weather conditions down here on Earth, a new study suggests.

Using a combination of satellite imagery and computer simulations, researchers found that tides of air created by intense thunderstorms over South America, Africa and Southeast Asia are altering the structure of the ionosphere, the topmost layers of the atmosphere where space weather occurs.

The finding, detailed in the Aug. 11 issue of Geophysical Research Letters, is surprising because scientists didn't think the ionosphere and the troposphere--the lower part of the atmosphere where terrestrial weather happens--affected one another.

Scientists think it works like this: Below the plasma bands, a layer of the ionosphere called the E-layer becomes partially electrified during the day. High-altitude winds blow electrically-charged plasma in the E-layer across the Earth's magnetic field, creating an electric field.

This electric field shapes the plasma above the E-layer into two bands. Therefore, anything that changes the motion of the E-layer plasma also affects the electric fields it generates; this in turn reshapes the plasma bands.
https://www.livescience.com/7165-stu...connected.html
That looks plausible and clearly supports what I've heard, though not seen put so lucidly. But it's a long way from HAARP heating the ionosphere (without anyone noticing the energy being radiated) and somehow presumably beaming its signal all over the globe to the right point (the mechanics of which is never adequately explained) and directing weather patterns, but anyway...


.

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Old 23-02-2019, 05:08 PM   #949
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That looks plausible and clearly supports what I've heard, though not seen put so lucidly. But it's a long way from HAARP heating the ionosphere and somehow presumably beaming its signal all over the globe to the right point (the mechanics of this is never adequately explained) and directing weather patterns, but anyway...
well the weather tracks in a certain direction because of the earths rotation so you just need to position your haarp in the right place and my understanding is that they built the one in alaska to take advantage of the auroral electrojet but now they have haarp on boats so they can position it wherever they like. This is because they can now use ionospheric current drive heating

Lets also consider this:

Dr. Bernard Eastlund is the scientist whose name is most associated with the creation and development of the HAARP project. HAARP is based on physicist Bernard J. Eastlund’s U.S. Patent from 1987 titled “Method and Apparatus for Altering a Region in the Earth’s Atmosphere, Ionosphere, and/or Magnetosphere”.

Because Eastlund’s “heaters” could elevate the Earth’s ionosphere, his discovery provided the ability to control weather by altering upper atmosphere wind patterns. This is done by focusing high frequency radio transmissions on the ionosphere, lifting and heating it in localized areas which then alters wind patterns and ultimately weather conditions.

The ionosphere is an active electrical shield protecting the planet from the constant bombardment of high-energy particles from space. This conducting plasma, along with Earth’s magnetic field, traps the electrical plasma of space and holds it back from going directly to the earth’s surface. Charles Yost of Dynamic Systems, Leicester, North Carolina states that:

“If the ionosphere is greatly disturbed, the atmospheric conditions below are subsequently disturbed.”

Dr. Brooks Agnew, a scientist and engineer, has researched ELF wave technology for the past 30 years. He also believes HAARP can modify the weather. “If you push the ionosphere out of it’s space, the stratosphere has to move to fill in that gap. When it moves, it can pull the jet stream with it…changing the way water moves through our atmosphere,” he says. “HAARP uses a billion watts. You can easily move a cloud wherever you want it using HAARP,” says Dr. Agnew.
https://weatherwarfare.worldatwar.in...e-the-weather/
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:12 PM   #950
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Maybe I didn't make my point clear. Yes, amateurs have for example, detected new military ELF and VLF signals. They've also heard HAARP (I have too, twice). It's Chris Fallen's posts that have alerted us to HAARP transmissions. My point is, the colossal amounts of energy that is required to steer storms - if you think that is even possible - would be so much so that it would not only be detected by amateur scientists, but probably saturate the equipment. No one would need alerts from Chris Fallen!

Just listing cases where amateurs have detected routine transmissions from HAARP, AreciboHF or anywhere else doesn't prove anything, other than they can do that. It's the point I made ages ago; we can detect this routine stuff. It's the multi megawatts of signal that will stick out like a sore thumb. None of these have been detected. No one to my knowledge has had their equipment damaged or even saturated by HAARP, or the Woodpecker when it was operating, doing what some would describe as their "dastardly deeds"..
they are now making predictions about earthquakes by observing the ionosphere

so the question is whether or not the ionosphere is itself being impacted by man
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:26 PM   #951
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Lets also consider this:

Dr. Bernard Eastlund is the scientist whose name is most associated with the creation and development of the HAARP project. HAARP is based on physicist Bernard J. Eastlund’s U.S. Patent from 1987 titled “Method and Apparatus for Altering a Region in the Earth’s Atmosphere, Ionosphere, and/or Magnetosphere”.
But its a theoretical paper designed to scare the Soviets with what might be possible with colossally more power than has ever been used.

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Because Eastlund’s “heaters” could elevate the Earth’s ionosphere, his discovery provided the ability to control weather by altering upper atmosphere wind patterns. This is done by focusing high frequency radio transmissions on the ionosphere, lifting and heating it in localized areas which then alters wind patterns and ultimately weather conditions.

The ionosphere is an active electrical shield protecting the planet from the constant bombardment of high-energy particles from space. This conducting plasma, along with Earth’s magnetic field, traps the electrical plasma of space and holds it back from going directly to the earth’s surface. Charles Yost of Dynamic Systems, Leicester, North Carolina states that:

“If the ionosphere is greatly disturbed, the atmospheric conditions below are subsequently disturbed.”
Well the ionosphere was 'greatly disturbed' over Europe from the late 1960s to the 1990s as I described. Did anyone notice?

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Dr. Brooks Agnew, a scientist and engineer, has researched ELF wave technology for the past 30 years. He also believes HAARP can modify the weather. “If you push the ionosphere out of it’s space, the stratosphere has to move to fill in that gap. When it moves, it can pull the jet stream with it…changing the way water moves through our atmosphere,” he says. “HAARP uses a billion watts. You can easily move a cloud wherever you want it using HAARP,” says Dr. Agnew.
https://weatherwarfare.worldatwar.in...e-the-weather/
Well he's made my point! If he thinks it takes a billion watts just to move a cloud (and HAARP has an ERP of 3.6 megawatts for brief periods) it will take so much more to move anything else for long enough to see an effect.

Last edited by thermion; 23-02-2019 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:34 PM   #952
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they are now making predictions about earthquakes by observing the ionosphere

so the question is whether or not the ionosphere is itself being impacted by man
Of course it is. We've established that. The magnetosphere is also being modulated by 60Hz and 50 Hz mains frequency.

You can see these spectral lines in VLF spectrograms when looking at the Schumann resonance.
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:36 PM   #953
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But its a theoretical paper designed to scare the Soviets with what might be possible with colossally more power than has ever been used.
so can we assume that by that point they had actually done the experiment but not admitted it or that they have in the time since carried out that experiment...there certainly seems to have been big funding and backing behind these ideas so i doubt they left that stone unturned

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Well the ionosphere was 'greatly disturbed' over Europe from the late 1960s to the 1990s as I described. Did anyone notice?
well that is the period in which they began talking about 'climate change' isn't it?

But i doubt it was as disturbed as it has been since

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Well he's made my point! If he thinks it takes a billion watts just to move a cloud (and HAARP has an ERP of 3.6 megawatts for brief periods) it will take so much more to move anything else for long enough to see an effect.
but haarp is not their only facility and also they have other ways of producing ELF's. there are all kinds of antennas around now
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:37 PM   #954
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Of course it is. We've established that. The magnetosphere is also being modulated by 60Hz and 50 Hz mains frequency.

You can see these spectral lines in VLF spectrograms when looking at the Schumann resonance.
right but is the manipulation of the ionosphere then being used to create earthquakes?
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:42 PM   #955
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they are now making predictions about earthquakes by observing the ionosphere

so the question is whether or not the ionosphere is itself being impacted by man
Yes, there were some perturbations in the ionosphere as detected by analysis of sat nav signals (I think) after the Japan quake of 2011. That looks like a promising area of research if it gives enough warning.

That is one of the research tasks of HAARP, to determine what effects the ionosphere has when being 'managed' has on all sorts of satellite signals as they pass through it.
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:44 PM   #956
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right but is the manipulation of the ionosphere then being used to create earthquakes?
Well if it takes massive amounts of power just to move a cloud, just think how much energy it takes to move the earth!!
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:47 PM   #957
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Yes, there were some perturbations in the ionosphere as detected by analysis of sat nav signals (I think) after the Japan quake of 2011. That looks like a promising area of research if it gives enough warning.

That is one of the research tasks of HAARP, to determine what effects the ionosphere has when being 'managed' has on all sorts of satellite signals as they pass through it.
so are you saying that there is a possibility among these various methods that we have briefly explored that manipulating the ionosphere can not only affect space weather but also have impacts on earth?
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:48 PM   #958
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Well if it takes massive amounts of power just to move a cloud, just think how much energy it takes to move the earth!!
is it all about power or about frequency?

so when people walked across the millenial bridge in london after it was built and the resonance from their footfall caused it to swing wildly from side to side was it that the bridge couldn't hold that number of people or was it about the frequency they created?
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:50 PM   #959
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is it all about power or about frequency?

so when people walked across the millenial bridge in london after it was built and the resonance from their footfall caused it to swing wildly from side to side was it that the bridge couldn't hold that number of people or was it about the frequency they created?
Ask a geologist, but probably both.
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Old 23-02-2019, 05:51 PM   #960
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Ask a geologist, but probably both.
well i wouldn't ask an architect!

they are so eager to create novelty in order to have their design chosen that they forget simple time worn things like how to make a bridge
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