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Old 30-10-2011, 02:01 AM   #1
voltaire
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Default 9/11 CT: Debate.

I've heard most(if not all) of the stock arguments for ''9/11 was an inside job'', however, there's something questionable, that's never been adressed(to my knowledge) by conspiracy theorists, such as Alex Jones.

It's alleged that the WTC towers were brought down with explosives or nano thermite, this plot was orchestrated by a secret shadowy group(zionists, Illuminati or whatever) which controls the US government.(and other governments?)

It's unlikely that this secret group planted the explosives or NT themselves, they would of got henchmen to do it, It would of required henchmen with demolition/explosive expertise.

I find the explosives theory implausible. I'm going to elaborate my reasons.

1) In order for the buildings to be rigged with traditional explosives or nanothermite, it would of required enormous preparation, as both the towers were 110 stories.

It would of required.

A) Hauling explosives into the buildings
B) removing wallboard to expose the beams
C) wiring them up
D) restoring the building appearance to cover up the work

1) The buildings were constantly full of people for at least 8 working hours. How is it possible to achieve all this work without any employes noticing?
Even if the work was carried out at night, it would be extremely unlikely, heck even impossible, for the conspirators to do so in 1 night, before the employes are back into work.

Even if it was carried out over the week end, it still wouldn't be possible to set up explosives on such a scale within 48 hours.

2) While all this was taking place, it would require constant effort to prevent anyone inadvertently discovering the plot(before and after).

3) This plot would of required loads of conspirators, how it is possible to keep every person involved from ever spilling the beans?

I hope we can have a civilised and professional discussion.

Don't participate in this thread if you're not going to adress my argument, thank you.
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Old 30-10-2011, 02:18 AM   #2
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I understand the points you make but why would there be over 1,600 architects and engineers saying the official explanation doesn't make sense if the buildings could have come down that way without explosives, et cetera?
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Old 30-10-2011, 02:23 AM   #3
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I understand the points you make but why would there be over 1,600 architects and engineers saying the official explanation doesn't make sense if the buildings could have come down that way without explosives, et cetera?
If we are going to have an argument by authority, based on how many architects and engineers support the alternative explanation.

1600 is a trifling number compared to the amount of Architects and Engineers that do not support the alternative explanation.
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Old 30-10-2011, 02:25 AM   #4
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The only thing certain about 9/11 is that the official story cannot be true. It cannot be a realistic description of what happenned, it is wholly untenable. If you disagree, I have no interest in debating you, in that case you are either hopeless or have not done enough research.

So then there are a number of alternative theories, each has good points and bad points and most describe 9/11 much better than the official story, but there is no way to know which is true, there are so many arguments that we may never know the full truth. You will never be able to know the full truth at the moment.

However, in regards to your concerns, I think it is important to note that bomb sniffing dogs were removed a little before 9/11 and that unusual service workers were reported in the building also. It is likely that you would not have to remove wallboard to expose the beams (they do not fix wallboard to the steel core of the building, as with a timber frame house) and so C & D are negligible at the most.

The workers would not have been in view, as with addressing C & D, the building had a steel core, not a wooden frame with plater board fixed to it, as with a house. It is very reasonable to assume that there were access points to this core, and that while accessing the main structure of the building; workers would not have been see nor needed to remove or restore wallboard.
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Old 30-10-2011, 02:36 AM   #5
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Old 30-10-2011, 02:43 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ponzi nemesis View Post
I understand the points you make but why would there be over 1,600 architects and engineers saying the official explanation doesn't make sense if the buildings could have come down that way without explosives, et cetera?
Of course architects and engineers would say that just to cover their asses and the reputation of their industry!
BBC TV did a good docu a while back about the towers construction, apparently there's a saying within the building industry- "Never trust a truss", and when the truss framework holding up the floors melted in the heat, the towers came down.

As for the whole conspiracy thing in general i don't buy it for a couple of reasons-
1- Al-Qaeda or any other terror group has NEVER denied responsibility for it.
2- Terrorists had already tried to topple the towers with a truck bomb in 1993; that alone would have given the US govt reason enough to invade the mid-east, they didn't need to stage 9/11 later to get an excuse.

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Old 30-10-2011, 02:48 AM   #7
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If we are going to have an argument by authority, based on how many architects and engineers support the alternative explanation.

1600 is a trifling number compared to the amount of Architects and Engineers that do not support the alternative explanation.
Why isn't there a website with 1,600 architects and engineers for the official story then? Surely at least that many patriotic American architects and engineers would arrange for that if most of them didn't doubt the official story?

I can speak for myself and say that, based on high school physics, all three building collapses, and most certainly building seven, make no sense at all without some kind of explosives; then we have the peer-reviewed paper saying there were tens if not hundreds of tons of nano-thermite in the buildings, et cetera.

Then there are , et cetera. It seems clear to me that whatever it took to put explosives in the buildings it happened one way or another; it may seem very unlikely but then it seems even more unlikely that one building, let alone three, could have completely collapsed like that based on fires alone.
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Old 30-10-2011, 02:53 AM   #8
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@waymarker
Quote:
melted in the heat, the towers came down.
I don't think anyone, besides you, thinks this happenned, congratulations.

Quote:
1- Al-Qaeda or any other terror group has NEVER denied responsibility for it.
You mean Al CIA da, Osama was a CIA asset, and probably still was at the time of 9/11. Al-qaeda is not a real terrorist group, it is a creation of intelligence agencies.

Quote:
2- Terrorists had already tried to topple the towers with a truck bomb in 1993; that alone would have given the US govt reason enough to invade the mid-east, they didn't need to stage 9/11 later to get an excuse.
Iraq had no connection with 9/11. So you're right, they didn't need an excuse. Revenge after ten years is also a great excuse, not.

Most of the people in stone-age afghanistan still have no idea what 9/11 was, yet pay for it with their lives.

Then there are so many points that make your stupidity burdonesome and frustrating. Just one point.

-Many of the terrorist are still alive, after a suicide attack.

How does that fit into your miserable opinion?

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Old 30-10-2011, 03:10 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by waymarker View Post
Of course architects and engineers would say that just to cover their asses and the reputation of their industry!
There is something really weird about debating this topic. I do not mean to be disrespectful but the way I experience this you just stopped making any sense. "Of course" doesn't seem to fit here at all; why risk losing government contracts for example? I simply cannot see any benefit to those signing the petition other than feeling that they couldn't live with themselves if they didn't.

Quote:
BBC TV did a good docu a while back about the towers construction, apparently there's a saying within the building industry- "Never trust a truss", and when the truss framework holding up the floors melted in the heat, the towers came down.
Nothing the BBC has put out on this topic has made any sense to me either. Have you tried comparing the melting point of steel cf. temperature at which aviation fuel burns thing again, let alone the temperatures an office fire can reach?

This mutual incomprehension seems to work the other way around too.Quite often when I try to talk to someone who doesn't seem to be able to see eye to eye with me on this or any of a number of other topics it seems that nothing I say makes sense to them either. It is all very strange!

Quote:
As for the whole conspiracy thing in general i don't buy it for a couple of reasons-
1- Al-Qaeda or any other terror group has NEVER denied responsibility for it.
"Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians."

Quote:
2- Terrorists had already tried to topple the towers with a truck bomb in 1993; that alone would have given the US govt reason enough to invade the mid-east, they didn't need to stage 9/11 later to get an excuse.
"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

I am not sure if anything I post here is going to achieve anything to be honest. Is it just me or has anyone else, on either side of this debate, noticed that on a forum like this nobody ever seems to change their mind once they have taken a stance on the 'inside job' vs. 'official story' question?
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Old 30-10-2011, 03:11 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by voltaire View Post
If we are going to have an argument by authority, based on how many architects and engineers support the alternative explanation.

1600 is a trifling number compared to the amount of Architects and Engineers that do not support the alternative explanation.
Where are these people then?
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Old 30-10-2011, 03:17 AM   #11
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noticed that on a forum like this nobody ever seems to change their mind once they have taken a stance on the 'inside job' vs. 'official story' question?
This is pretty much the same with everything. I am admittedly one of the worst offenders you'll find anywhere.

I think it is because you have to discover it yourself rather than be told. It is impossible to assail truths I find in my own heart with opinions from your mind.
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Old 30-10-2011, 03:22 AM   #12
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Where are these people then?

They're all the Architects and Engineers that are not part of ''Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth''.

It's fair to assume that the Engineers and Architects that have not joined A&E 4 9/11 truth

1) Do not care about 9/11

2) Are unaware of A&E 4 9/11 Truth

3) Do not support the alternative theory
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Old 30-10-2011, 03:24 AM   #13
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This is pretty much the same with everything. I am admittedly one of the worst offenders you'll find anywhere.

I think it is because you have to discover it yourself rather than be told. It is impossible to assail truths I find in my own heart with opinions from your mind.
You seem to be right but then what to do? I have pretty much given up trying to tell people about 9/11 now but still have several topics, such as 'HIV'/'AIDS', where I still hold out hope that if only more people would look at the topic objectively a great deal of misery and suffering could be prevented.

I feel like going door-to-door with information and may yet try this but do you think that any approach based on trying to tell anyone about anything is inherently doomed? I have thought that perhaps, if I put a flyer through someone's door and move on, rather than engage in conversation, then if they choose to pick it up and read it then they will be discovering the information rather than being told, so it might work.

There is something very strange about all this...
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Old 30-10-2011, 03:30 AM   #14
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Just to clarify.

I'm not biased towards any of the 9/11 theories. I'm attempting to look at all them objectively, with no baggage.

It's certainly mind numbing looking at all the evidence and arguments. There's no other way unfortunately.
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Old 30-10-2011, 04:05 AM   #15
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Ponzi nemesis said
Quote:
what to do?
(don't bother reading it all)

I am not trying to undermine your efforts, this is just my opinion. But do you really believe that getting the Truth about 9/11 or Aids out is a path to bringing the Truth within your heart into being in this world; as if that Truth could be expressed in this world by us imperfect creatures. This world is imperfect and it is meant to be imperfect for the moment.

We believed we could be as Gods, we believe we are evolving (despite the corruption of our DNA and decreasing brain size). We believe we are moving towards a more truthful society. Seems we are still caught in the delusion that snake sold us thousands of years ago, when he said that we could be as Gods, we then developed an ego and moved closer then ever to our own destruction. we are no closer to being Gods, we cannot create our own consciousness, and are imprisoned by our egos. We are further from Godhood then ever.

The Truth can never and has never been expressed in this world. People try and people get close. But people are imperfect.

Perhaps when we acknowledge the God within us, the God that has always been there, the God that cares not for power or for becoming as Gods; we will be as such and will be able to express such a Truth completely.

I personally do not see any learning or education of others as a path to this enlightenment. I think Eckhart Tolle is as close as we usually get with words. And not even he has been able to transform my ego or imperfections into anything Truthful or worthwhile.

At the moment the only place we can express it is in our own hearts, words fall well short. Such is the sorrow, and the only solace I take is not here nor in debating the Truth but in realising that there is a great mystery beyond what I can comprehend, an infinity well beyond my understanding.
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Old 30-10-2011, 04:08 AM   #16
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^^ No disrespect meant, but can we keep this thread strictly about 9/11
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Old 30-10-2011, 04:10 AM   #17
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Voltaire how you think all 3 towers came down?
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Old 30-10-2011, 04:19 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by unseen4ce View Post
Ponzi nemesis said (don't bother reading it all)

I am not trying to undermine your efforts, this is just my opinion. But do you really believe that getting the Truth about 9/11 or Aids out is a path to bringing the Truth within your heart into being in this world; as if that Truth could be expressed in this world by us imperfect creatures. This world is imperfect and it is meant to be imperfect for the moment.

We believed we could be as Gods, we believe we are evolving (despite the corruption of our DNA and decreasing brain size). We believe we are moving towards a more truthful society. Seems we are still caught in the delusion that snake sold us thousands of years ago, when he said that we could be as Gods, we then developed an ego and moved closer then ever to our own destruction. we are no closer to being Gods, we cannot create our own consciousness, and are imprisoned by our egos. We are further from Godhood then ever.

The Truth can never and has never been expressed in this world. People try and people get close. But people are imperfect.

Perhaps when we acknowledge the God within us, the God that has always been there, the God that cares not for power or for becoming as Gods; we will be as such and will be able to express such a Truth completely.

I personally do not see any learning or education of others as a path to this enlightenment. I think Eckhart Tolle is as close as we usually get with words. And not even he has been able to transform my ego or imperfections into anything Truthful or worthwhile.

At the moment the only place we can express it is in our own hearts, words fall well short. Such is the sorrow, and the only solace I take is not here nor in debating the Truth but in realising that there is a great mystery beyond what I can comprehend, an infinity well beyond my understanding.
Out of respect to the OP I'll start a new thread to reply to this and then edit this post to give a link to it... watch this space

EDIT: Here's the thread I created: Is it worth trying to change people's minds?
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Old 30-10-2011, 05:00 AM   #19
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I've heard most(if not all) of the stock arguments for ''9/11 was an inside job'', however, there's something questionable, that's never been adressed(to my knowledge) by conspiracy theorists, such as Alex Jones.

It's alleged that the WTC towers were brought down with explosives or nano thermite, this plot was orchestrated by a secret shadowy group(zionists, Illuminati or whatever) which controls the US government.(and other governments?)

It's unlikely that this secret group planted the explosives or NT themselves, they would of got henchmen to do it, It would of required henchmen with demolition/explosive expertise.

I find the explosives theory implausible. I'm going to elaborate my reasons.

1) In order for the buildings to be rigged with traditional explosives or nanothermite, it would of required enormous preparation, as both the towers were 110 stories.

It would of required.

A) Hauling explosives into the buildings
B) removing wallboard to expose the beams
C) wiring them up
D) restoring the building appearance to cover up the work

1) The buildings were constantly full of people for at least 8 working hours. How is it possible to achieve all this work without any employes noticing?
Even if the work was carried out at night, it would be extremely unlikely, heck even impossible, for the conspirators to do so in 1 night, before the employes are back into work.

Even if it was carried out over the week end, it still wouldn't be possible to set up explosives on such a scale within 48 hours.

2) While all this was taking place, it would require constant effort to prevent anyone inadvertently discovering the plot(before and after).

3) This plot would of required loads of conspirators, how it is possible to keep every person involved from ever spilling the beans?
Why are you placing a 48 hour "window of opportunity" time constraint on it? Why not weeks or months?

How is it possible for the mafia to keep people involved from disclosing details about their organizations operations? What about people with high level security clearance in the defense department, or the CIA, etc? There could have been multiple incentives too, for them to keep their lips sealed..you know how it goes, right? Kinda like the Godfather making an offer they couldn't refuse? A very large amount of money for services rendered, along with threats to the well-being of their family members, etc.

Although its possible, why are you assuming wallboard would have to be removed and replaced in order to rig explosives on to key, vulnerable stress points of the structure? Perhaps they were accessible in other ways? For example, what about elevator service shafts and the like?

So, in my mind's eye, I see a crew of highly trained demolition experts who perhaps had other training as well; training that enabled them to get in and out unnoticed after hours, as well as work efficiently in awkward areas like service shafts. Much like guys in the military who are trained to take down supply-line bridges behind enemy lines, and the like.
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Old 30-10-2011, 05:37 AM   #20
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Quite frankly, I think a crew working any length of time, even since the day it was built is more plausible then the impossible jet-fuel theory.

Jet-fuel(kerosene) will never melt or weaken steel to the extent that it causes a complete failure and free-fall collapse, never.

But to say that crews started work on demolitions very early-on is actually possible, it is a stretch, but it is possible.

I would be more inclined to believe an exotic weapons technology (haven't gone much into Dr. Judy Woods myself) was responsible over the terrorist/plane theory.

As something I don't understand or know about has unknown possibilities that jet-fuel does not.
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