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Old 25-01-2010, 09:20 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by foobar View Post
Not by Tesla it wasn't. You've picked this up from a fringe 'free power' website written by people who don't understand basic concepts of electromagnetism.

Something that transmits power by induction is no more an 'overunity' device than any other radio transmitter.
i think i heard it from a speech..made by tesla..
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Old 25-01-2010, 09:24 PM   #42
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He's already had 22 scientists study it for 2 years to tell him 'no, it doesn't work'. Nobody with half a brain is going to be convinced by a presentation over webcam done using Steorn's equipment.
Thats why they are encouraging ppl to bring their own test equipment.
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Old 25-01-2010, 09:25 PM   #43
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i think i heard it from a speech..made by tesla..
Show me the text of the speech.
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Old 25-01-2010, 09:27 PM   #44
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Thats why they are encouraging ppl to bring their own test equipment.
What do you think the level of understanding of experimental physics is going to be of most of the attendees, and what kind of equipment do you think they're going to bring ?

Uri Geller used to tell people they could test his claims in person.

Last edited by foobar; 25-01-2010 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 25-01-2010, 09:39 PM   #45
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He's already had 22 scientists study it for 2 years to tell him 'no, it doesn't work'. Nobody with half a brain is going to be convinced by a presentation over webcam done using Steorn's equipment.

Steorn invites you to view the demonstration streamed live at www.steorn.com or attend in person at the Waterways Ireland Visitor Centre, Grand Canal Dock, Dublin 4, Ireland


You maybe overlooked that bit

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Old 26-01-2010, 01:33 AM   #46
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Anyone forget about Nikola Tesla, and His work....? ..as the tail goes we was developing a system to provide free entergy for everyone, biased on the Electric universe model.
No he wasn't. He was developing a system that allowed him to transmit energy produced by ordinary means via induction instead of via cables.
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Old 26-01-2010, 01:33 AM   #47
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Steorn invites you to view the demonstration streamed live at www.steorn.com or attend in person at the Waterways Ireland Visitor Centre, Grand Canal Dock, Dublin 4, Ireland


You maybe overlooked that bit

griswald
No, I didn't overlook the fact that Steorn, having given up trying to persuade real scientists to endorse their nonsense (or try and produce a working generator which produces energy they could sell to the national grid) have taken to trying to raise money by getting the credulous to buy 'experiment kits' at live presentations. I know that the Irish economy is tough at the moment. Bloke has to make a living and all that.

Guess what, there's a teenager in who think they're a vampire/werewolf/alien hybrid. I suppose you think people should either fly out to inspect them in person or accept their claims uncritically too?

You're either a Steorn advertising bot, in which case you probably ought to be paying the owner of the site for this, or a raving idiot.

Last edited by foobar; 26-01-2010 at 01:41 AM.
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Old 26-01-2010, 03:17 AM   #48
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Sorry for getting into this thread so late but here's some opinions.

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Soxism
Anyone forget about Nikola Tesla, and His work....? ..as the tail goes we was developing a system to provide free entergy for everyone, biased on the Electric universe model.
I believe Tesla was onto something there. I could not work it out until I heard about the Schuman Resonance - As I understand it, a cavity in the ionsphere that contains billions of watts of energy. I believe that Tesla was attempting to influence the cavity and make it vibrate at a known frequency. Then we could all tune to that frequency and receive free energy. The energy in the cavity being replenished by the universe as per the electric universe theory you mentioned. Thats just my opinion.

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Freckles
Went to see the display, it was amazing to say the least..
Will you be going back to see it or the demonstration. Be interesting to have a first hand follow up account of it.

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Biblegirl
ambient energies are abundant and have been harnessed by humans since the beginning of time
Don't know why we aren't doing it now - probably due to Westinghouse thinking that if its abundant and anyone can tap into it where do you put the meter. As he stated of Tesla's attempts of the system mentioned above by Soxism

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foobar
Their explanation of how it works doesn't make any sense physically
It does too me, a typical magnet wheel will always find equilibrium and eventually stop. Find a way to break the equilibrium and you've cracked it. From the Steorn that seems to me what they are saying they have done.

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foobar
Steorn can't do that because they're claiming, in effect, to violate fundamental laws of thermodynamics with a simple electro-mechanical device
I don't think they are as I stated above, they think they have found a way to break the equilibrium and keep the wheel turning. if they have it may not neccessarily break the law of thermodynamics. Certainly Dr Adams who was the head of the IEEE New Zealand branch thought he had done it.

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foobar
Nobody outside conspiracy websites takes this seriously.
Some scientists do. We can only hope they find a way.

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h2pogo
i thought perpetual motion was when it didnt need an external source
Not neccessarily. What about mechanical perpetual motion, a magnetic wheel that continues to spin etc. If it does not require power to run it would not need an external source.

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foobar
Some things to remember :-

All proposed perpetual motion devices require energy input allegedly 'just to get them started'
Not neccessarily what about the magnetic wheel proposed by some monk back in the 1200's (can't remember his name) the only external source his required was a push. It didn't work but you see my point. Doesn't have to be electrical.

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foobar
He produced a means of wirelessly transmitting energy from a finite source, not a means of creating energy 'for free'.
That was not his only invention or design he was working on - there were others. But your correct, Tesla did not state he was working on a machine that created free energy, merely trying to 'attach a wheel to nature' to provide and energy source.


I've already used this quote once tonight but here it is again -

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time." F Scott Fitzgerald
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Old 26-01-2010, 10:18 AM   #49
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It does too me, a typical magnet wheel will always find equilibrium and eventually stop. Find a way to break the equilibrium and you've cracked it.
No, this doesn't make any sense physically. Where does the energy come from to produce the motion ? Are you claiming that the magnets themselves are a source of infinite energy ?

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From the Steorn that seems to me what they are saying they have done.
Yes, and they're either lying through their teeth in the hope people will buy their experiment kits, or just hopelessly deluded about very basic physics. My guess is the former, because their business strategy seems to indicate that they know they can't really generate power, so they're just trying to flog gizmos to 'free energy' enthusiasts.

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I don't think they are as I stated above, they think they have found a way to break the equilibrium and keep the wheel turning.
Yes it would. Where does the energy come from to produce that motion ?

Last edited by foobar; 26-01-2010 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 26-01-2010, 05:17 PM   #50
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No, this doesn't make any sense physically. Where does the energy come from to produce the motion ?
Give it a push with your hand. A magnet wheel works by attracting and repelling so once started it will run, but eventually it will find equilibrium as and the wheel will slow and stop. Momentarily break the equilibrium at the critical point and theoretically it will continue to run? This does not need to be overunity or free energy, a system powered by batteries if neccessary - not much point to it if does no work. Its the principle I'm illustrating.

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Are you claiming that the magnets themselves are a source of infinite energy ?
No.

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Where does the energy come from to produce that motion ?
Initially? As stated previously, give it a push with your hand.
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Old 26-01-2010, 05:25 PM   #51
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Give it a push with your hand. A magnet wheel works by attracting and repelling so once started it will run, but eventually it will find equilibrium as and the wheel will slow and stop.
It would slow and stop due to friction regardless of any magnetic forces. The finite amount of energy you gave it with your hand will be expended overcoming friction. That's why a bicycle wheel or child's spinning top doesn't spin forever when you turn it with your hand.

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Momentarily break the equilibrium at the critical point and theoretically it will continue to run?
No, it won't, unless you keep putting more energy into the system, which is what Steorn do in their demos.

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Initially? As stated previously, give it a push with your hand.
Finite energy in, finite energy out. The finite energy you can get out for any useful work (like generating electricity) will be less than than the finite amount transferred by the push with the hand, because there is no such thing as a perfectly efficient machine, so you'll lose some to friction etc..

Last edited by foobar; 26-01-2010 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 26-01-2010, 05:45 PM   #52
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It would slow and stop due to friction regardless of any magnetic forces. The finite amount of energy you gave it with your hand will be expended overcoming friction. That's why a bicycle wheel or child's spinning top doesn't spin forever when you turn it with your hand.
Yes, but not if the magnetic forces are greater than the frictional forces and you have broken the equilibrium by applying energy at critical point. I'm not, in this model, claiming you get more energy out. Merely stating it is possible to keep the wheel spinning


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No, it won't, unless you keep putting more energy into the system, which is what Steorn do in their demos.
Yes, as stated above.


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Originally Posted by foobar View Post
Finite energy in, finite energy out. The finite energy you can get out for any useful work (like generating electricity) will be less than than the finite amount transferred by the push with the hand, because there is no such thing as a perfectly efficient machine, so you'll lose some to friction etc..
Yes, as previously stated. But if you are not generating power then there is no energy out and no extra frictional losses caused by a generator.

Are you saying it is impossible to keep a magnet wheel spinning by applying energy?
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Old 26-01-2010, 07:00 PM   #53
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For anyone that is interested this or something similar has been done before by Dr Adams in new Zealand -

Dr Robert Adams, Doctor of Science (Hon), Founder of the New Zealand Section of the Institute of Electricial and Electronic Engineers Inc., New York (I.E.E.E) 29.5.1968

1969 - Invented the Adams Switched Reluctance Motor Generator
1975 - Discoverer of the Impulse method of charging batteries
1993 - Discovered a procedure to engineer magnetic polarity reversal
1995 - Invented the Adams Super Power Four Pole Permanent Magnet
1996 - Invented the Mark 024 Thermo Switched Reluctance Motor which resulted in the discovery of anomalous unforseen massive heat energy in addition to electric power generation

Wiki link -
In 1969, Robert George Adams (of New Zealand 1920-2006) developed what became known as the "Adams Switched Reluctance Pulsed DC Permanent Magnet Motor Generator". (The terminology is idiosyncratic, because the design is not that of a traditional switched reluctance motor.) Reluctance is the measure of the opposition to magnetic flux, analogous to electric resistance. In the description of the motor's operation developed by Harold Aspden Ph.D, pulsing the stators electrically is said to switch the reluctance or opposition to the rotor magnets.

Before he died, as he was unable to put the device into commercial use, he bequeathed his design to the world allowing anyone to use it although the patent had already lapsed into the public domain, making it non patentable.

If anyone can explain why his invention was a fraud or what his mistakes were I would (sincerely) be very interested to hear it.

Also, I assume that any argument used to discredit the Adams motor would be applicable to the Steorn motor hence its relevance to this thread.

Last edited by pi3141; 26-01-2010 at 07:20 PM. Reason: spelling error
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Old 26-01-2010, 07:22 PM   #54
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I would also like to add that if the Steorn technology is based on the Adams motor principle then that would explain why they are offering kits and licences as the patent has already lapsed into the public domain and Steorn would not be able to patent the device.
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Old 26-01-2010, 07:25 PM   #55
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For further reading on the Steorn technology please see JL Naudins website where as of 26/12/2009 he begun a project to replicate the device.

Link - http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm

His summary of the device

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To summarize, we have a "non-reciprocal" and fully asymmetrical system. There is no counter electromotive force (back-emf) in the toroidal coils of the stator produced by the rotation of the rotor. The current required to get the temporary depolarization of the magnetic domains of the ferrite is fully independent of the mechanical torque produced on the motor shaft.
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Old 27-01-2010, 12:24 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by pi3141 View Post
..........

Will you be going back to see it or the demonstration. Be interesting to have a first hand follow up account of it.

.......

I've already used this quote once tonight but here it is again -

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time." F Scott Fitzgerald
Yes, I am hoping to go up Saturday to see the final demo.

I really hope they can prove the sceptics wrong but it might be slow work. Its all going in the right direction, thats the main thing

Will report back with my extensive in-depth knowledge of electro magnetic engineering
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Old 27-01-2010, 01:14 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by freckles View Post
Yes, I am hoping to go up Saturday to see the final demo.
Excellent. I'm jealous, would love to be able to get there myself

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Originally Posted by freckles View Post
I really hope they can prove the sceptics wrong but it might be slow work. Its all going in the right direction, thats the main thing
I hope so to.

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Will report back with my extensive in-depth knowledge of electro magnetic engineering
Do I detect a hint of self sarcasm there

JL Naudin who is independently testing the device, (see link) and doing a good job of it, still thinks its worthy of further testing - so its looking good so far.
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Old 27-01-2010, 01:26 AM   #58
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Yes, but not if the magnetic forces are greater than the frictional forces and you have broken the equilibrium by applying energy at critical point
You could only do that if you kept the magnetic fields themselves in motion, which would require constant application of energy. And it would require greater energy than the sum of what you tried to take out plus what you lost to friction.

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I'm not, in this model, claiming you get more energy out. Merely stating it is possible to keep the wheel spinning
You don't even understand what you're claiming. By saying that you can 'keep the wheel spinning' you're claiming that you've put enough energy in to overcome friction for an infinite amount of time. That would require infinite energy input.


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Yes, as previously stated. But if you are not generating power then there is no energy out and no extra frictional losses caused by a generator.
Rubbish. All machines have losses to entropy. Go and buy a GCSE physics textbook.

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Are you saying it is impossible to keep a magnet wheel spinning by applying energy?
No. I'm saying that such a wheel will never be an over unity device, will never be capable of spinning forever without energy input and will never be a useful power generating device. It will just be a little electromechanical toy that always takes more energy to keep spinning than you could ever extract from it. i.e. not what Steorn are claiming it is.

Seriously, this is a waste of time. You just need to study some basic physics.

Last edited by foobar; 27-01-2010 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 27-01-2010, 01:33 AM   #59
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great discussion been going on for ever.my son who came to dublin with me had a similar discusion with his science teacher..
at least steorn are having a goif every one believed their science teacher ..nothing would be possible..

If went to dublin with a multimeter on saterday how could i tell if it worked? any one..

Last edited by h2pogo; 27-01-2010 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 27-01-2010, 02:35 AM   #60
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You don't even understand what you're claiming. By saying that you can 'keep the wheel spinning' you're claiming that you've put enough energy in to overcome friction for an infinite amount of time. That would require infinite energy input.
Yes I understand perfectly what i am claiming, now you are being derogatory, but you don't understand me. Maybe I was not clear. If a magnet wheel, started by hand, would only spin for 30 seconds before coming to a halt, then to keep the wheel spinning for 10 minutes I would require 10 minutes worth of energy - that would not be an infinite amount of energy. If I wanted to keep the wheel spinning for infinity then I would need to apply power for infinity and yes that would take an infinite amount of power.



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Rubbish. All machines have losses to entropy. Go and buy a GCSE physics textbook.
I stated -

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no extra frictional losses
I have therefore acknowledged their are frictional losses, you are implying I have stated there are no frictional losses. Reading my statement that is cleary and erroneous assertion on your part.


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No. I'm saying that such a wheel will never be an over unity device, will never be capable of spinning forever without energy input and will never be a useful power generating device.
Thats great foobar, thank you for the opinion, duly noted.

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It will just be a little electromechanical toy that always takes more energy to keep spinning than you could ever extract from it. i.e. not what Steorn are claiming it is.
Maybe I like toys - whats it to you. Ok so Steorn are claiming something else, lets wait for the results. We understand that you predict it can never be done. What is your problem with not wanting anyone to try something for themselves?

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Seriously, this is a waste of time. You just need to study some basic physics.
Agreed. You are wasting your time here (and mine) the people on this thread are investigating the possibilities. You may not agree, you are welcome to your opinion and your contributions to the discussion are welcomed. But why bother trying to continually assert it can never be done to people that are trying something out - that in my opinion is a waste of time. If thats what you believe then thats what you believe, why are you trying to force your opinions on me, why are being derogatory about it? Whats it to you what I spend my time reading, discussing and investigating ? Its quite possible the device will be shown to be erroneous and we will realise that, say 'what a shame' and move on. There's nothing wrong with that. There are countless examples in science of scientists saying that something cannot be done or something will not work and then its proved it can be done or will work. That is science. If everyone listened to people like you without ever trying we would never have gone to the moon or invented trains. Can you not see that? Please, accept the fact that people like to try different things and sometimes they are proved wrong or proved right.

Let me put it another way, if you have children will you always expect they learn every lesson from you or will you allow them to live their own life, make their own mistakes and learn their own lessons?
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