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Old 14-12-2012, 05:21 PM   #21
cosine90
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Originally Posted by sibby View Post
Hi Cosine90 - these tags have a very long range, they are very high Htz, wifi RFID tags...

"In the meantime, West Cheshire College has issued tags to its 5,500 full-time students. Upon first registering for classes, each student is issued a photo ID card, along with a Zebra Dart UWB badge tag. Zebra's UWB receivers, which can receive tag signals from up to 328 feet away, are located throughout the campus buildings, in order to ensure that the tags can be pinpointed no matter where within the school a student might be located."

From http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/view/9476/3
OK, I take back some of what I said

I apologise to Sibby, Meme an Bootneckband If I have come across as a bit of a 'blowhard'

OK,

first of all, these are not RFID badges...... they are RTLS tags, which I accept is a disctinction most people would not recognise.
RFID is passive and unpowered
RTLS is powered and is able to be used for 'real time location' - hence the name

I have never heard of these sort of tags being used outside of a warehouse 'asset location' structure..................and, frankly, I am appalled that they are being used on people

as a 'penance', I intend to contact some people about this issue and get more info. I will get back with update 'as and when'
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Old 14-12-2012, 07:57 PM   #22
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I've just listened to an Artist Taxi Driver vid about this..


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Old 14-12-2012, 08:03 PM   #23
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Hi Cosine90

Not to worry, this RFID application is so new that we are all learning here I guess.

Hope some of this helps. The RFID Journal article goes on to say that:

"The Dart UWB tags emit brief RF signals across the entire 6.35 to 6.75 GHz frequency band. These signals are picked up by Zebra UWB [Ultra Wide Band]receivers, located throughout the monitored area and wired to a central processing hub. The hub collects the tag and position data, and forwards it to Zebra's Location Appliance software, running on a separate computer, which determines the location in two dimensions."

Then the provider Zebra Technologies states this:

"West Cheshire College now benefits from over 95% first-time accurate locating of personnel to within three meters across both campus facilities. The enhanced occupancy tracking and analysis provides a wide range of accurate and useable management information." [my emphasis]

Now here comes the interesting bit, these Ultra Wide band tags are designed to be compatible with Cisco's wireless local area network (WLAN) infrastructure:

"The average battery lifespan of a Zebra Dart UWB tag is seven years, Francis says, when set at a transmission rate of once per second. "We would need to purchase CCX tags [Wi-Fi tags optimized to work with Cisco's wireless local area network (WLAN) infrastructure] two to three times in the same time period," he states, "resulting in an average saving of $400,000 to $600,000, depending on tag-blink settings, to meet [our] requirements."

Cisco are a huge multinational company and large provider in our UK education system and as far as I know there are no other instances of this Ultra Wide Band RFID real time location systems (RTLS) here in the UK with humans, let alone in a age 14-19 college.

There are huge issues of privacy and civil liberties issues here tagging young persons to such an accurate degree. I'm not convinced the students are fully aware as there is no mention of this on West Cheshire College's website or, as far as I can see, their Data Protection record

I had read somewhere that the frequency range the tags were emitting at are 6489.60, 6988.8 and 7987.2 MHz from the IEEE 802.15 standards which isn't the same as the article states but this frequency enables not only very accurate pin point location data but also transfer of data from the tag.

I am no expert in this so any input, Cosine90 or anyone can give, would be appreciated.

This technology will come into our education system and we need to educate ourselves as, much like the biometrics, it is slipping in under the radar so to speak.
:-)


http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/solu.../ch3_WLAN.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.15
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/view/9476/3
http://www.zebra.com/us/en/about-zeb...t-chesire.html
www.west-cheshire.ac.uk/
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Old 14-12-2012, 08:47 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dan duchaine View Post
We have RFID cards at work. I dont see the issue with them. They allow me to open doors. Work knows where i am anyway because they employ me to do things.

Whats the problem? When i am not at work, i am sure they probably could guess i was at home anyway. I doubt they need a card to find their staff at night, they have all our addresses.
Hi Dan,

Your arm can open a door, and if you want to be RFID tagged that is entirely up to you as a free thinking consenting adult.

However, RFID or Real Time Location Systems (RTLS) in educational establishments tracking students with a few metre radius. Sensitive areas here.. too many trips to the school nurse? Toilet? Showers? We don't know that students are not tracked there, they may not be but we don't know.

West Cheshire College Building Services Area Manager, Kevin Francis, stated to the RFID Journal:
"“We can search for individual [students or staff]. And we can look at them in groups, such as peer groups.”

The college say this RFID/RTLS technology is there to help, save money - but they have some really serious snooping technology to do this.

Saving money? ...what exactly is the value/worth of selling out our youth's civil liberties and privacy?
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Old 15-12-2012, 02:55 PM   #25
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2.45 GHz is microwave oven frequency.

These RFID RTLS tags are emitting at 6.35-6.75 GHz and on the microwave spectrum.

I'm not saying these poor kids are cooking themselves but a few thousand of these tags emitting this frequency on a campus can't be healthy, can it? If they're on lanyards too right next to the body.

Regardless of privacy concerns, I think I refuse to wear one for potential health concerns.
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Old 15-12-2012, 04:10 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by sibby View Post
Hi Dan,

Your arm can open a door, and if you want to be RFID tagged that is entirely up to you as a free thinking consenting adult.

However, RFID or Real Time Location Systems (RTLS) in educational establishments tracking students with a few metre radius. Sensitive areas here.. too many trips to the school nurse? Toilet? Showers? We don't know that students are not tracked there, they may not be but we don't know.

West Cheshire College Building Services Area Manager, Kevin Francis, stated to the RFID Journal:
"“We can search for individual [students or staff]. And we can look at them in groups, such as peer groups.”

The college say this RFID/RTLS technology is there to help, save money - but they have some really serious snooping technology to do this.

Saving money? ...what exactly is the value/worth of selling out our youth's civil liberties and privacy?
As far as i am concerned, if someone is on my property, i have every right to monitor them and follow them.

Join a company / sign up to a course, then i say though luck, you can be monitored. If you dont like it, you are free to walk away at any time.

In public space, though that is different.

Last edited by dan duchaine; 15-12-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 15-12-2012, 06:30 PM   #27
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Israeli CISCO technology.
http://www.cisco.com/web/about/cisco...RFID_India.pdf
Will be in most public sector buildings within a few years.
Educational establishments like it because it automatically tracks student's attendance and teaching hours which they use for claiming funding.
They can also put the tags in equipment to track their location, laptops etc...

Last edited by snapdragon; 15-12-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 15-12-2012, 06:35 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dan duchaine View Post
As far as i am concerned, if someone is on my property, i have every right to monitor them and follow them.

Join a company / sign up to a course, then i say though luck, you can be monitored. If you dont like it, you are free to walk away at any time.

In public space, though that is different.
I'm a free market type of guy, and in principle I might just agree. I've also worked in secure locations where this sort of stuff was in use, and of course it's my choice if I choose to work there, or decline the offer of employment.

But even so there is a problem. What happens to students who are half way through school or college when this is imposed, its rather unfair that they are forced to walk away on their investment. What happens when they have no choice at all ? When every school in the area has implemented this technology. Are those kids denied an education ?, will the parents of those kids get interrogated by social services for failing to send them to school ?

When I've worn these tags I've understood why they where required. I could see the justification for their use, and i could appreciate the problem they where attempting to solve. I can't really see what problem these devices solve in a school that couldn't be solved by teachers actually taking an interest in the children they are supposed to be teaching. Abdicating the responsibility to technology is a cop out.

There are serious civil liberty and privacy issues that need to be addressed here, and potential child safety issues. The public sector has the most appealing track record when it comes to data security. the implementation of technology in schools is generally not understood, teachers and administrators are not trained to deal with this stuff.

As always its the thin end of the wedge, and before we know it various public sector organizations will be calling for a single RFID tag for use across multiple service providers, and a single system to monitor track and record locations.

I guess what I'm saying is that in practice there won't be an element of free market choice, or any alternative for those who don't wish to submit.

For example, my passport is fitted with some form of chip, I have no idea what it's used for, but I'm pretty sure 10 seconds in the microwave will stop it functioning. Although I object on principle to the use of this technology, I won't be zapping it, because I know when I turn up at Manchester airport tomorrow morning i will potentially get a load a grief, and may even be prevented from leaving the country. I have no choice in the matter, I cant walk away and choose an alternative option, its either comply, or put with questioning and inconvenience, and possibly have freedom of movement suspended until my passport is replaced (at a ridiculous cost)
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Old 15-12-2012, 06:40 PM   #29
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I don't want a chip
But how do you know??
Isn't there certain meds they are developing which have a chip which adheres to you digestive tract?!
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Old 15-12-2012, 07:18 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by twilight_sparkle View Post
I've just listened to an Artist Taxi Driver vid about this..

http://youtu.be/t3Vd2iN0SYM
I suggest everyone have a think about this man. The first time I saw one of his videos I thought "thats cool" bit like the first time I saw one of Charlie Veitch's Love Police vids.

I subscribed to Artist Taxi Man on Twitter. F**k me, I felt like I was being spammed, then it struck me...

WHEN DOES HE FIND TIME TO DRIVE HIS TAXI?



The man is on Twitter all day long, each day, every day. He ain't no taxi driver. If he is, he is a broke one!
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Old 17-12-2012, 01:55 PM   #31
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But even so there is a problem. What happens to students who are half way through school or college when this is imposed, its rather unfair that they are forced to walk away on their investment. What happens when they have no choice at all ? When every school in the area has implemented this technology. Are those kids denied an education ?, will the parents of those kids get interrogated by social services for failing to send them to school ?

When I've worn these tags I've understood why they where required. I could see the justification for their use, and i could appreciate the problem they where attempting to solve. I can't really see what problem these devices solve in a school that couldn't be solved by teachers actually taking an interest in the children they are supposed to be teaching. Abdicating the responsibility to technology is a cop out.
Some very good points. As I see it the problem is much earlier along long before the rfid chips. It is about making money out of education and money in general. Why can't we have a society in which children are free to choose whether they attend school and where the teaching is provided by volunteer? In this case the teacher has to be so be damn good to attract students to class. Same thing with employment. Why can't everyone begin with what they need like a home and some land and then 'work' for the reason that they are inspired to do something worthwhile. Like I said root problem is money. If I am not making much sense you can read this chapter to understand much more about what I am saying. http://books.google.hu/books?id=96Rt...page&q&f=false

Last edited by mightiswrong; 17-12-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 17-12-2012, 02:30 PM   #32
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The way I see it is...they are targeting the young school children....because they will be the generation that knows no different and in their life time...more and more chipping will come in because like some of the posts here...they see no harm in it...thats how its done!

They are even testing it out in America!!!

You have to ask yourselves....three questions....Humanity has survived up until now without them...so whay do we need them? Secondly.....once you accept these measures...there is no going back...and erradicating them!
Thirdly....what is there end game and purpose here...you need to think longer term!

I for one will not allow my children to be tagged or anything...thats abuse of your basic freedoms as a human...its a form of abuse and control. Its not remotely normal.....and those who accept it now...need to be mindful of the society they are letting in through the back door.

History is repeating itself ie Nazi Germany...but in far more subtle ways right under ours noses and people do need to wake up and start questiong this...its a living nightmare in my opinion an very very dangerous!!

Because who are you handing this powe control and information over too????
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Old 17-12-2012, 02:34 PM   #33
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Another quick thought...we tag and microchip animals...is that what we have become???..An animal..we are spiritual beings ..not pieces of meat!!

Think George Orwells Animal Farm...some animals are more equal than others!! x Its a scary world we have all been complacent and asleep for far too long! x
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Old 17-12-2012, 02:56 PM   #34
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You have to ask yourselves....three questions....Humanity has survived up until now without them...so whay do we need them? Secondly.....once you accept these measures...there is no going back...and erradicating them!
Thirdly....what is there end game and purpose here...you need to think longer term!
It could be eradicated at a later point but you are quite right that it is far better to stop it in advance before people become used to such things and they are seen as normal. It could be that major fuck ups happen. Like a child is kidnapped and their chip hidden in the bag of another student or that schools have got larger and less personal because of the technology and people were not paying attention to who was really in class. Actually taking a register and looking up to see the face of the student is a much more reliable way to know that the child is actually there.

Where is it going? well it would most likely head in the direction of a single implant to be used as an adult also for purposes of buying and selling, travel, surveillance etc. such that the chip would become indispensible to gain access to medical care or even open your own front door. Services could be limited for persons who have commited a crime for example (or even everyone) like they could be constrained from using it outside their local area. Infact you are talking about a very large can of worms like it could be used in conjunction with other technologies to identify political disidants (john was at the anti globalisation protest or sarah attended a yoga class and she is known to have been spending time with john. Tom is sarahs son and has inherited her rebellious genes), ratial minorities or for segregation of ethnic, religious or class groups etc.

Last edited by mightiswrong; 17-12-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 17-12-2012, 05:04 PM   #35
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I have been seriously thinking about this and it deeply destrubs me for three main reasons.

When throughout our history as human being has chipping ever been needed???...Great civilizations have survived throughout history without them..so why do we all of a suden need them at all?....We don't! Who are we all running scared from exactly.....each other???

Secondly the way I see it...information..is power and control....and those who own or impliment these chips...then have that control and power.....by having one under any circumstance you are in effect handing over your power control and your freedom....who to???? This test period is the start to rolling it out as the norm..where all babies will be chipped from birth..in my opinion!

Thirdly we are humans..we have supposedly free minds free hearts free souls/spirits...thats what makes us unique and special...so why do you want to give this away...to me....its a very dangerous door to open....because the lies we will be told for having them will be endless.....and you are looking at Nazis Germany again..but without the need for camps!! We as humans have not learnt the lessons of History......we question and laugh at how the German people fell for Hitlers lies......but aren't we all guilty of the same thing..if we let this happen???

It can not have a positive outcome for humanity at all.....are they rushing to chip all the starving in Africa for example????...I think not...because they are already controlled by the basic need for food and survival!
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Old 17-12-2012, 05:32 PM   #36
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The responsibility for "opting out" seems to have been placed on our shoulders!

"Criterion 5 The burden of consultation
Keeping the burden of consultation to a minimum is essential if consultations are
to be effective and if consultees’ buy-in to the process is to be obtained."
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Old 17-12-2012, 05:54 PM   #37
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by having one under any circumstance you are in effect handing over your power control and your freedom....who to????
Well that is an interesting question. This type of technology has been developed for military purposes. For example checkpoints in Israel to control who can and who can not access certain areas. Or in the US for managing industrial meat production. The lowest common denominator stuff like that pussy milk.
Who is the power and control going too? Well one description is strangers. People we do not know. That on its own. Let me repeat that. On its own people we do not know, strangers are not those we should be allowing to have power and control over us or our children but there are other descriptions. For example there is the government and the corporations. Arms manufacturers for example and we are not even talking necessarily about British arms manufacturers but foreign companies with ties to foreign intelligence agencies and more besides and then there are people who see children as nothing more than an income stream, stock and shares. I really don't think i need to go on.

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Old 17-12-2012, 05:57 PM   #38
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What happens to students who are half way through school or college when this is imposed, its rather unfair that they are forced to walk away on their investment.
Anyone not prepared to die for their beliefs in an instant is already dead and therefore of no consequence whatsoever.

If you believe RFID is evil, walk. Its YOUR choice.
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Old 17-12-2012, 06:10 PM   #39
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Ooooooo loved RFID tags. I think, everyone is best tagged if RFIDs are placed straight onto everyone's cortex, and when we all are deep networked by these devices. Internet will soon became rudimental connection.
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Old 17-12-2012, 06:27 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by cosine90 View Post
most (all?) colleges and universities have ID badges

you may think this is 'orwellian' but it stops people wandering around colleges who have no right to be there. It identifies real students from young people wandering in to steal bags, deal drugs, or any number of things.

RFID is a step up from this.
if you give a student and a teacher(lecturer) a badge with RFID, you can have door control..... you can give everyone the same badge, but allow access to certain rooms but not other.

you cannot track a person with RFID, except in a very rough manner.
you may be able to see that person A has gone into the college at a certain time.... and see when they left.
other than that, they may have gone into a room 'tailgating' behind someone else..... or, simply, not used any areas where RFID is required.


RFID is short range......... VERY short range..............it has an effective range measured in millimetres -or a few centimetres.... it is not some kind of WiFi or GPS unit

the chip in the card is 'dead'...........it has no battery or internal power source

when you swipe the card over a reader, the reader induces a current in the chip in the card and makes it work
take the card away from the reader and it is 'dead' once more
Agree!
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