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Old 01-08-2009, 06:17 AM   #41
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Your demeanour is defeatist

You can remain in honour & ask any reseanoble question you want.

Your guilty of over-thinking

Contract law is very basic did they forward the funds that were only created by your signature on a promiisary note? werent the funds only created by way of a keystroke upon a book-keeper witnessing your agreement? did they forward the funds to a PERSON who didnt have title

Its as ridiculous & complicaticated as you care to make it.
The answer would APPEAR to be yes to all of your questions and I concur with the simplicity aspect.

The defeatist attitude (which I don't think I have but society would like me to!) is due to the David and Goliath syndrome. As much as it is a great story in the bible and everyone wants David to win, I don't really see Goliath toppling from one in the eye from little me

We can but try though. I will put together a suitable set of questions for my bank and post here for others to comment on.

Cheers TWTT
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:00 AM   #42
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I think youre doing the right thing. I wish you every success. I just think the least amount of words used is probably the best way to go so that the lawyers have less to pick apart and draw you upon. Thats exactly what they will do. They will try to avoid the truth of the matter by shooting holes with legalese bullets. Perfecting your claim is a matter of using enough words to convey your claim but not so many words as to allow them room to draw you upon your interpetration of them in their context.

Not easy but a worthy cause. Stay within your scope in order for you to be able to fully explain the meaning of all & any of the words you use.

There is a whole army of tried & tested freemen in the world who can help you perfecting your claim & if I were you I'd bounce this claim around them to test the claim and your own confidence in it. Courts are but a stage, the most convincing actors are those who have rehearsed their lines the most. Therefore those with the least amount of lines that are perfected to establish & prove their claims are the most convincing.

However, im a mere child in these matters Ive dealt only with credit cards & a store loan so far & have nothing left to play with. How i wish i had a fat mortgage. I'd have deliberately missed as many payments as possible without them pursuing legal action to ensure that they would have sold it on. Then I'd have left it a year or so to ensure my credit default to have been sold many times over. Then the games would have begun by asking them to produce the original.
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Old 03-08-2009, 05:00 AM   #43
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Question This is great stuff

I have missed a few payments myself and currently have a suspended possesion order on our home we are currently just holding on.

I have asked for a signed and named invoice for the arrears hmm I received only a letter confirming what the arrears were!

I am thinking of going back to court and to accuse my lender of blatant fraud by asking certain questions like the ones above.

Fantastic post please lets keep this going

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Old 03-08-2009, 07:03 AM   #44
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I have missed a few payments myself and currently have a suspended possesion order on our home we are currently just holding on.

I have asked for a signed and named invoice for the arrears hmm I received only a letter confirming what the arrears were!

I am thinking of going back to court and to accuse my lender of blatant fraud by asking certain questions like the ones above.

Fantastic post please lets keep this going
It would appear that you could well be a test case for this theory, if you are willing of course.

In my example I would be merely probing, however you are in the position of potentially having your house stolen from you.

I am not certain of the process you should take therefore I would not want to give specific (and potentially damaging) advice.

Perhaps more experienced others can help here too. In the meantime I'll think about your situation...
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:35 PM   #45
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OK folks - for those still interested here is a latest stab at a letter to a bank "lending" money via a mortgage. Point 4 is very specific therefore probably irrelevant to a lot of people, however I would urge you all to check your Mortgage Deed document very closely:

---------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir or Madam

NOTICE OF INTENT

On 19 August 2008 I, Joe: Bloggs, and my wife, Jenny: Bloggs, (collectively known as “We” or “Us”) signed an agreement to create an account with The Bank (“You”).

Having considered this in more detail We have a number of concerns that need to be addressed by You, which are as follows:

1. We do not appear to have received any documentation that is signed by You, or a representative of The Bank. In effect all We have are two documents, the “Mortgage Deed” and the “Offer” both emblazoned in red with the word “COPY” and both unsigned. We understand that for a Contract to be valid and enforceable it is required to be signed by both parties and must meet certain conditions, including the provision of “Consideration” by both parties. Please provide Us with a copy of the Contract between Us that is signed by both parties.
2. If a Contract is in place between both parties please confirm the Consideration that is being provided by You. If You wish to state that the Consideration You are providing is in the form of money, We require proof of actual Bookkeeping records, which clearly show an asset equal to the amount You have loaned to Us. For your information, the Consideration provided by Us is in the form of payments using money We have acquired through our actual labour.
3. We are concerned that what We have actually signed is a Bill of Exchange, and if this is the case We require you to immediately confirm that this is indeed true. If it is true then We require an exact copy of the actual signed Bill of Exchange held by You. If You no longer are the bearer or holder of the Bill of Exchange please confirm this to Us immediately.
4. In the document titled “Mortgage Deed” there appears to be a very misleading and confusing section that We require You to address immediately. Within the section titled “Definitions” there is the term “Customer” where “Mr Joe Bloggs and Mrs Jenny Bloggs” are described as such. Throughout the Mortgage Deed the term “Customer” is used in every instance except in the definition provided by You for “Customer Obligations”. In the definition of “Customer Obligations” a reference is made to “customer’s”, with the full text reading “All the customer’s liabilities to the Bank of any kind (whether present or future, actual or contingent and whether incurred alone or jointly with another) together with the Bank’s charges and commission, Interest and Expenses.” We require clarity from You on who You are referring to as the “customer” and an acceptable reason as to why this information was withheld from Us originally and not included in the “Definitions” section of this document, or anywhere else.

At present we will continue to provide payments as is, however for us to continue making these payments we require you to provide us with clear and concise explanations in plain English of all of the four (4) points made above and this must be provided to us within 14 days of the date of this letter.

Sincerely and without ill will or malice and with all human rights reserved
Comments please...

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Old 04-08-2009, 08:07 PM   #46
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Cat 'n Pidgins

I will be back in 15 days.

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Old 12-08-2009, 04:09 PM   #47
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I look forward to this thread starting up again.

I've ordered a couple of books from Thomas Anderson, and will happily contribute towards this discussion in any way I can.


Bornfree said: "However, im a mere child in these matters Ive dealt only with credit cards & a store loan so far & have nothing left to play with. How i wish i had a fat mortgage."

You are welcome to mine!!

I have drafted out Notices for loans and mortgage, but for some reason I am still hanging on - always looking to see what else there is to learn. Very much want to keep it simple. Don't want to get into their 'legal' snares. It is just fraud, so why is it so daunting?
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:10 PM   #48
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I have written to my bank with a slightly tweaked letter to the one above but it covers the points regarding 1) lack of signed contract, 2) consideration, 3) whether what I have actually signed is a promissory note and not a contract, 4) errors in the deed.

I spoke to a solicitor about points 1, 2 and 4 and he said that banks don't need to sign, that the money is consideration and that the "error" in the deed would only be important in a "perfect" world but he thinks we live in an "imperfect" world!!!! And he even said all that for free, what a lovely fella

Still a few days to go on my 14 days stipulated in the letter, but I will of course keep you posted...
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:27 PM   #49
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The answer would APPEAR to be yes to all of your questions and I concur with the simplicity aspect.

The defeatist attitude (which I don't think I have but society would like me to!) is due to the David and Goliath syndrome. As much as it is a great story in the bible and everyone wants David to win, I don't really see Goliath toppling from one in the eye from little me

We can but try though. I will put together a suitable set of questions for my bank and post here for others to comment on.

Cheers TWTT
Funny you should mention David and Goliath ...

There is a Video online of David Icke on The Edge TV ... in it he also mentions David and Goliath.
(paraphrasing) He says that too often we get caught into the programmed thinking of the PTB being the Goliath and we are little ol' David ... which is the view we have when we see our body as our existence, but when you change the observation point to that which accompanies the realisation that we are infinite consciousness, with the bodies we are in as just a hologram we play in, then its very easy to see that from that viewpoint, we are Goliath to the PTB's David.

... or something like that.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:24 PM   #50
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I have written to my bank with a slightly tweaked letter to the one above but it covers the points regarding 1) lack of signed contract, 2) consideration, 3) whether what I have actually signed is a promissory note and not a contract, 4) errors in the deed.

I spoke to a solicitor about points 1, 2 and 4 and he said that banks don't need to sign, that the money is consideration and that the "error" in the deed would only be important in a "perfect" world but he thinks we live in an "imperfect" world!!!! And he even said all that for free, what a lovely fella

Still a few days to go on my 14 days stipulated in the letter, but I will of course keep you posted...
behind the solicitor is still a man, a man who almost certainly has an ego and almost certainly is paying a mortgage - if what you were suggesting were true, you would be inferring him to be a fool.
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Old 13-08-2009, 06:20 AM   #51
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behind the solicitor is still a man, a man who almost certainly has an ego and almost certainly is paying a mortgage - if what you were suggesting were true, you would be inferring him to be a fool.
At 150 pounds per hour and a thorough understanding of the english legal system, i doubt very much he has a mortgage
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Old 13-08-2009, 06:27 AM   #52
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Funny you should mention David and Goliath ...

There is a Video online of David Icke on The Edge TV ... in it he also mentions David and Goliath.
(paraphrasing) He says that too often we get caught into the programmed thinking of the PTB being the Goliath and we are little ol' David ... which is the view we have when we see our body as our existence, but when you change the observation point to that which accompanies the realisation that we are infinite consciousness, with the bodies we are in as just a hologram we play in, then its very easy to see that from that viewpoint, we are Goliath to the PTB's David.

... or something like that.
Of course you are right in your inference of us being Goliath (infinite consciousness), but until enough of us know this, we (humanity) will not make that leap forward and at that stage matters concerning mortgages etc will be deemed EXTREMELY trivial.
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Old 13-08-2009, 06:39 AM   #53
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I have written to my bank with a slightly tweaked letter to the one above but it covers the points regarding 1) lack of signed contract, 2) consideration, 3) whether what I have actually signed is a promissory note and not a contract, 4) errors in the deed.

I spoke to a solicitor about points 1, 2 and 4 and he said that banks don't need to sign, that the money is consideration and that the "error" in the deed would only be important in a "perfect" world but he thinks we live in an "imperfect" world!!!! And he even said all that for free, what a lovely fella

Still a few days to go on my 14 days stipulated in the letter, but I will of course keep you posted...
The Bill Hicks "ride" immediately came to mind with your solicitor robot's automated responses.

There is nothing "illegal" in testing the veracity of the singular largest investment & commitment you will make in your lifetime.

Asking your lender about it's consideration & full disclosure of it's consideration is not "challenging". Its not excercising "mischief" in your contract. Its simply ensuring that your lifelong commitment to this commitment "contract" is not mis-placed.
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Old 13-08-2009, 06:59 AM   #54
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The Bill Hicks "ride" immediately came to mind with your solicitor robot's automated responses.

There is nothing "illegal" in testing the veracity of the singular largest investment & commitment you will make in your lifetime.

Asking your lender about it's consideration & full disclosure of it's consideration is not "challenging". Its not excercising "mischief" in your contract. Its simply ensuring that your lifelong commitment to this commitment "contract" is not mis-placed.
I was thinking exactly the same thing myself the other day. It was just the way he implied, "well without the bank lending you the money you couldn't have bought the house". Well I guess that is true if we don't know of any other way (yet) of funding the purchase, however when I raised the following points he went very quiet!
As for the lending of money, would that be money of exchange, or commercial money created by the bank as a result of fractional reserve banking? I understand what you are saying, i.e. if they hadn't loaned me the money I couldn't have bought the house, but are they really providing true consideration, or just creating numbers on their screen? I think we both know the answer to that! What concerns me more is that I am able to "put up" a house as security before I even own it, because I surely cannot own it until I borrow the money to purchase it, which I can only borrow once I have provided the house as security!!!

An even scarier thought to me is that what I am really signing is a Bill of Exchange (promissory note) which the bank then uses to secure further money at a lower rate of interest (and with a house as security to fall back on). Perhaps I should think less about these things and accept that the banks can CLEARLY do as they please anyway!
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Old 13-08-2009, 07:15 AM   #55
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lol the bank forwarded their so-called consideration before you became title holder (your consideration is two/fold, the property as forfeiture and or your sweat & money for 25 years). That in itself is proof of the value they place in their "consideration".

The banks know what they forward to you/your vendor is mere keystrokes with a long-term view that in this recession or the next they may become owners of something tangible.

Perhaps the reason theyve become reluctant to lend/mortgage recently is because there wont be another recession... either their will be a NWO with 1 bank or the sheeple awake & take control of financial instruments & institutions...
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Old 15-08-2009, 05:17 PM   #56
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lol the bank forwarded their so-called consideration before you became title holder (your consideration is two/fold, the property as forfeiture and or your sweat & money for 25 years). That in itself is proof of the value they place in their "consideration".

Call me thick lol but can you explain what you mean by this please
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Old 15-08-2009, 05:20 PM   #57
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Also worm that turned at the moment I am making the repayments as best as I can some £850 a month but if I get called back to court I might as well go in all guns blazing so to speak.

Thanks for your input love and peace to you

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Old 16-08-2009, 08:28 AM   #58
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Also worm that turned at the moment I am making the repayments as best as I can some £850 a month but if I get called back to court I might as well go in all guns blazing so to speak.

Thanks for your input love and peace to you
No worries Whatever you choose to do is your own path and decision. I doubt you will get much help from a solicitor, and for that matter a judge as the latter are merely there to interpret the law and ensure it is upheld !

Good luck with whatever you do but realise that what I have said on this and ANY post on the internet is not to be construed as legal advice, because like 90%+ of the population I have not been taught law in any state run school.

Perhaps it is time to start lobbying the inclusion of law as part of the national curriculum. That is for another time and another project though

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Old 16-08-2009, 08:40 AM   #59
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lol the bank forwarded their so-called consideration before you became title holder (your consideration is two/fold, the property as forfeiture and or your sweat & money for 25 years). That in itself is proof of the value they place in their "consideration".

Call me thick lol but can you explain what you mean by this please
I think what bornfree is saying is that the bank were willing to give me 200,000 plus of (make-believe) money, which they will claim as "consideration", BEFORE I even held title (ownership) of the house. I then used the money to purchase my house, whereby I could then use the house to provide as security to secure the loan!!! Can you see the error in this now????

In reality they gave me the money "unsecured" in the first place UNTIL I agreed to provide the house as security by Mortgage Deed. If you read the loan offer carefully, it states "this offer is not binding until the mortgage deed is complete". The mortgage deed cannot be complete until the money has been given to me to enable me to purchase the house. Therefore, for a small amount of time, I have 200,000+ of money given as an "unsecured loan", which they TRUST me to use to buy the house and to sign the mortgage deed.

NOW I UNDERSTAND WHY A SOLICITOR IS USED TO COMPLETE THE TRANSACTION AND FORMS/DEEDS - because I could have actually bought the house, signed the title deed and then not signed the mortgage deed and defaulted on the non-binding loan offer from the bank. The bank could have taken me to court and made me bankrupt but the house would have been mine or whoever I wanted to "gift" it to!!!

Next time gadget!
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Old 16-08-2009, 04:22 PM   #60
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OK, so I have received a response for my letter to the bank, which states that it has been handed to a particular person to look into further and that it may take more time. It also states that it will be handled via the complaints procedure for the bank and I have been given a reference number and a telephone number to call on. No answers to any of my questions have been given and no length of time for the response to be provided has been stated.

So, what do you think I should do? The approach I think I should take is to state that this is NOT a complaint and therefore it should not be subject to the bank's internal complaints procedure. Then re-iterate that I am questioning a number of issues in relation to my loan account and the alleged contract. I do not wish for it to be handled as a complaint and that I still require the answers to these questions to be provided in the 14 days stated in the original letter. Include the original letter again for information and send it back to them.

Thoughts anyone?

Cheers TWTT
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