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Old 19-09-2011, 09:05 PM   #21
bertieb
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Why does no money suddenly result in no existing technology?
You could argue that without the creation of money we would still be shuffling around in mud trying to eek out a living.
Money and its creation may have been the catalyst that has brought us to where we are which includes all the inventions and technology we have today.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:06 PM   #22
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So a sense of community and an a lack of selfishness is a step backwards?
I don't comprehend; please explain.
I am saying that the amount of produce available to a community would diminish.
At this moment if I want fifty boxes of apples, it is not selfish. In your scenario it would be. There would be less available.
That is a step backwards.

Last edited by rumpelstilzchen; 19-09-2011 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:06 PM   #23
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But, why take a tedious job when the reward is exactly the same for a job that is less tedious?
Again, highlights how there are those who have become accustomed to material wealth as a measurement of happiness, and those who aspire to the richness of community and the sense of belonging.

What greater reward could there be than having all your needs met and to knowing that you are contributing to your community?

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And what about anybody that refuses to work? Do they still get the apple?
As in any system, that would be up to the community, wouldn't it?
The smaller the community and the more self sufficient it was, the easier to determine the contribution of its members.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:08 PM   #24
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I am saying that the amount of produce available to a community would diminish.
At this moment if I want fifty boxes of apples, it is not selfish. In your scenario it would be. There would be less available.
That is a step backwards.
Why and how could you possibly 'need' 50 boxes of apples?
You can't 'sell' them; there is no money and no commerce.
Is it even possible for one man to eat 50 boxes of apples prior to them 'going off'?

Any produce over and above the needs of the community is surplus; i.e. waste.
That's inefficiency.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


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Old 19-09-2011, 09:09 PM   #25
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Again, highlights how there are those who have become accustomed to material wealth as a measurement of happiness, and those who aspire to the richness of community and the sense of belonging.

What greater reward could there be than having all your needs met and to knowing that you are contributing to your community?
You're ignoring my point.
What incentive is there to take a tedious job when you know an easier job will reap the same benefit? Surely those that opt for the less tedious work are being selfish?
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:10 PM   #26
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I plough fields all day and another man sits keeping watch over some sheep smoking his pipe, do we both have steak for tea?
If so wheres my incentive?
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:10 PM   #27
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May I have an apple ... I weld ... don't need a welder ... is a redundant argument. There is no ownership. All the apples belong to the community and are offset by the contribution of each community member, to the community.

Community doesn't need a welder?
OK ... so demand dictates no welding required.
Contribute another way.
Ah, but Yoz, without a medium of exchange there could be no petty little fines for no-crimes.... The power elite would lose their position and society would take on responsibility for itself....

Ah, i see your train of thought

How would a society without coinage then cope with those who can not (through disability - define disability) or will not contribute to their society?

Those in positions of (assumed) power, those who sit at a desk and rely on all those little fines to fund their existence (traffic cops, enforcement agencies, political agencies, councils, policy enforcement types etc etc) will argue you tooth and nail - because they don't want to lose their all perpetuating reality / existence.



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Your questions appear to be limited to the existing paradigm of large, commercial, trading nations ... which is actually one of the symptoms of the malignancy.
Ah, the system feeds itself, and for those ensnared into it (through choice or ignorance) it is a hard task to begin breaking the bonds.

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Smaller, self sufficient communities, producing according to needs.
Remember; no money, no financial system, no commerce, no ownership, no capital accumulation
No control, no slavery.

would this idyll also acclaim to no debt?

Last edited by merlincove; 19-09-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:11 PM   #28
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You could argue that without the creation of money we would still be shuffling around in mud trying to eek out a living.
Money and its creation may have been the catalyst that has brought us to where we are which includes all the inventions and technology we have today.
You could argue it ... but I'm not sure if it would hold much water.

The mind requires no money to conceptualise.
Invention is more often by inspiration in contradistinction to payment.
All ideas; past, present and future ... do not require money to exist.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


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Old 19-09-2011, 09:11 PM   #29
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Why and how could you possibly 'need' 50 boxes of apples?
To make cider and get pissed all day while everyone else works.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:13 PM   #30
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I plough fields all day and another man sits keeping watch over some sheep smoking his pipe, do we both have steak for tea?
If so wheres my incentive?
Carry on living in your society, if you ask me, then you have a choice - to live in an adyll or to choose the system as it currently is, flaws and all - no system will be perfect.

Escape if you wish to - the choice is yours, not for others.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:13 PM   #31
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All ideas; past, present and future ... do not require money to exist.
However the manifestation of those ideas have created money and security not just for the inventor but for millions of others.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:13 PM   #32
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You're ignoring my point.
What incentive is there to take a tedious job when you know an easier job will reap the same benefit? Surely those that opt for the less tedious work are being selfish?
I'm not ignoring it.
Maybe I'm simply not accepting the presumption you're founding it on.

What incentive is there?
Community, belonging, needs being met.
Those that are able to do a certain job, will do a certain job.
Why?
Because they're able.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:13 PM   #33
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To make cider and get pissed all day while everyone else works.
Or you could make cider and trade that for other things you need - find the market and apply yourself to it.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:14 PM   #34
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To make cider and get pissed all day while everyone else works.
Good point.
I'll come and get pissed with you.
I'll trade some welding rods.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by yozhik View Post
Those that are able to do a certain job, will do a certain job.
Why?
Because they're able.
But they may not want to.
Why lay railway sleepers all day when you can knit socks and still get the steak and cider?
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:16 PM   #36
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Or you could make cider and trade that for other things you need - find the market and apply yourself to it.
Yes of course you could but thats not the point I was making.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:17 PM   #37
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However the manifestation of those ideas have created money and security not just for the inventor but for millions of others.
So the ideas have CREATED money?
Agreed.

Which goes to proving that the money is not required for the idea; the money needs the idea.
No money; the idea still exists.

In terms of money and security for the inventor?
No money, so that comes off the table.
No security?
How so?
Everything in the community is for-giving.
The inventor would probably require the services of a production line to assit in his invention materialising. Probably some technical equipment? Raw materials? So he might need some other community members to provide their services and expertise. And ALL of this can be done without money. ALL of it.

Sure, it needs a massive paradigm shift and for people to detox from the concept of money as a motivating factor ... but it is wholly possible and solves the majority of the world's evils.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:17 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by bertieb View Post
You could argue that without the creation of money we would still be shuffling around in mud trying to eek out a living.
Money and its creation may have been the catalyst that has brought us to where we are which includes all the inventions and technology we have today.
just a thought but with a little research it is probable that it would be easy to find plenty of examples where money has prevented the advancement of technology and inventiveness, and the effect that money has in the buying up and never to be released copyright and patented [still they both exist only on paper] materials is the real downfall for the advancement of any product or activity.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:21 PM   #39
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Yes of course you could but thats not the point I was making.
The point i was making, simply apply yourself to the society in which you are in.

In Yoz's utopian society then your abilities are for the immediate community

Is it a society of dog eat dog or one of equal measure - which side of that measure do you wish to be?

Applying yourself rather than app-lying (re-lying) on others.

Be yourself, for if you can not be yourself who are you? And in being yourself, create a soceity that strengthens links of purpose rather than slavery - where a society feeds society rather than the fat controllers of that society.

Last edited by merlincove; 19-09-2011 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:21 PM   #40
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To make cider and get pissed all day while everyone else works.
Hey ... if your community wants/needs apple cider, then its a valid need!
But they key point being, if the community determines its needs, then an individual can utilise their skills to providing it, for the community.

So it then requires a suitable level of apple production in order for that need to be satisfied.

Simple model of supply/demand WITHOUT the need of money.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman
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