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Old 05-02-2011, 03:15 PM   #201
ultima1
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Originally Posted by dreamscope View Post
That hasn't answered my question at all.

I asked for proof.
Thats so sad. Just shows you will not or cannot do research.

You think DNA is not evidence or was faked?

You think that the calls were faked?

Last edited by ultima1; 05-02-2011 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:18 PM   #202
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ultima read some Barry Sheck and learn something about DNA evidence. or get an audio book if you cant read.
Better yet why don't you post proof that the DNA evidence on 9/11 was wrong or faked.

Oh thats right you cannot, you cannot do research and post sources.

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Old 05-02-2011, 03:28 PM   #203
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Thats so sad. Just shows you will not or cannot do research.

You think DNA is not evidence or was faked?

You think that the calls were faked?
I've done research, obviously you haven't.

The DNA is only as valid as the source it comes from. Understand that?

As for the calls, well it was a simple scientific fact at that time that those calls could not have been made from the aircraft.

Go do your research.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:29 PM   #204
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CSI Fraud: researchers craft fake DNA evidence
By John Timmer | Last updated August 18, 2009 3:22 PM
If there's one application of modern genetics that the public has not only accepted but embraced, it's the use of DNA testing in criminal investigations. Courts have accepted DNA evidence as definitive, and it's difficult to imagine a movie or TV show that focuses on law enforcement but declines to use DNA testing as a plot device. The reason is simple: given a valid DNA sample, the tests can match it to its source with probabilities that exclude the rest of our planet's population. Those probabilities still hold, but some researchers have now looked into whether it's possible to fake a valid DNA sample, and they have come up with a disturbing answer: just about any molecular biology lab has the tools to do so.

DNA evidence is appealing largely because it's rigorously scientific: we have empirical data about the prevalence of different genetic variations in the population, and it's easy to calculate the probability of any individual carrying a specific combination of those variants. Look at enough of them, and you can lower that probability to the point where it's less than one in several billion, meaning that DNA's owner is likely to be the only person on earth with that precise combination.

In contrast, as recent reports have indicated, there's not a lot of science to the rest of forensic science. As the authors of the new paper point out, in contrast to the science behind DNA, "other types of forensic evidence, such as ballistics, blood-spatter analysis, and fiber analysis... rely on expert judgment and have limited connection to established science. [DNA] is even considered to be more reliable than eyewitness evidence, which is known to suffer from a relatively high rate of errors."

Which is what makes their report disturbing. The forensic processing pipeline includes a variety of methods to identify likely sources of DNA, ranging from identifying obvious points of contact like the grip of a gun, to locating sources of biological material, such as blood and saliva spatters. DNA is then isolated from these sources. But there's no way to determine if the DNA that actually wound up in or on the sample is actually the same DNA it started with.

As the researchers demonstrate, it's possible to exploit this loophole with a vengeance. Purified DNA can be smeared all over the surface of your choice, such as a gun grip. It's also possible to eliminate the original DNA from blood and saliva samples using a standard piece of lab equipment called a centrifuge, which spins rapidly in order to separate components of liquids based on their density. So, for example, it's possible to spin all the cells that contain DNA out of a saliva sample, or separate the white blood cells out of a blood sample. The liquid that's left behind looks like a valid biological sample, but contains none of the original DNA.

All that's left then is to replace the original DNA. Since most of the forensic tests are performed using a standard set of DNA fragments amplified by PCR, the authors simply took an environmental sample ("blood, dry saliva stains on absorbent paper, skin scrapings, hair, and smoked cigarette butts were collected"), amplified up the same fragments, and then spiked the purified blood and saliva with this DNA. They estimate that a library of about 425 DNA fragments would be enough to fake a match to just about anyone in existing DNA databases—without any DNA from that individual ever being obtained.

Of course, if any forensic technician goes digging beyond the standard genetic markers, problems would become apparent pretty quickly. Still, the authors are ready for this eventuality. A technique has been around since 2001 that allows the entire human genome to be amplified, starting from a sample with fewer than 10 cells. Here, you'd definitely need a DNA sample from the individual you're trying to frame, but it wouldn't take much of one.

To show that their results were more than an intellectual curiosity, the authors shipped some fabricated samples off to a third-party DNA testing facility. As far as the facility was concerned, everything looked legitimate.

Fortunately, in identifying the problem, the researchers have come up with a solution. DNA inside human cells picks up a chemical modification called methylation; DNA amplified in a test tube doesn't. It's possible to determine whether or not a given stretch of DNA has been methylated using standard lab techniques, although these are a bit laborious and time-consuming, and it's the sort of technique that hasn't made its way into forensic training yet. Still, testing for methylation in a DNA sample should provide an important quality control on the sample—at least until biologists figure out how to apply methylation in a controlled manner.

It would be tempting to view this as an arms race between the sophistication of fabrication and forensic techniques, but the fact is that your garden variety criminal is unlikely to have the skills and equipment needed to pull a fake off. What it may do is undermine the general confidence in the use of DNA evidence. There's simply no way of knowing a priori which cases might have a molecular biologist with a vested interest, and therefore which samples need to be tested for tampering. It appears that we'll need to start testing methylation patterns in every case in order to retain confidence in the general techniques.

In the meantime, the most immediate effect of the paper is that it's almost certainly set off a spasm of scriptwriting among those responsible for TV whodunnits.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...search-lab.ars
bump, technology was their, read if you can. proof, prove you exist
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:39 PM   #205
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The DNA is only as valid as the source it comes from. Understand that?
Yes i do, and if you had done research you would know that it is why NIST had to come up with new DNA testing just for the WTC.

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As for the calls, well it was a simple scientific fact at that time that those calls could not have been made from the aircraft.
Show you sources. Proper, verifiable sources.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:51 PM   #206
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Did the autopsy list for flight 77 include any arab names?
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Old 05-02-2011, 04:01 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by ultima1 View Post
Show you sources. Proper, verifiable sources.
What, you're incapable of doing a google search?

Seek and ye shall find, it is all there for you.

What do you mean by 'proper'? You mean government-approved? Wake up.

What do you mean by 'verifiable'? By what authority?
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:24 PM   #208
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They did prove that the hijackers were the same people who left things behind.
You're assuming no DNA was planted.

You're assuming the belongings left behind at the airport weren't planted.

You're assuming the labs weren't under pressure to confirm the government's story.

You're assuming there were hijackers, which is exactly what you're meant to be proving.


Why don't the DNA tests match the samples taken from the alleged crash sites and the belongings left at the airports with samples taken from belongings left in the home countries? The DNA tests are a joke, just like NIST's investigation into building 7 which failed to test for explosives.
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Old 07-02-2011, 01:44 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by ultima1 View Post

Also i have lots of evidence of hijackers.
Please could you elaborate and show your proof. I think it would end a lot of bickering if you showed us what you have
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:34 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by bryan View Post
You're assuming no DNA was planted.
You are assuming it was planted.

Quote:
You're assuming the belongings left behind at the airport weren't planted.
You are assuming it was planted

Quote:
You're assuming the labs weren't under pressure to confirm the government's story.
You are assuming they were under pressure.

Quote:
You're assuming there were hijackers, which is exactly what you're meant to be proving.
I have posted sources that there were hijackers.
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Old 09-02-2011, 10:10 AM   #211
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No, i am stating that DNA of dead hijackers proves there were hijackers.

If the highjackers were vapourized or otherwise destroyed in the fires that brought down the towers what proof is there other than speculation that the highjackers were on the planes

The DNA from the Armed Forces Lab proofs there were hijakers.

Was the DNA found on belongings left behind matched with remains found at the crash sites

NO, you do know that the hijackers used fake and phoney documents to get tickets.
Well da of course they used fake docs.
Where are the remains of the highjackers why aren't they being held up for the world to see.
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Old 09-02-2011, 10:19 AM   #212
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Please could you elaborate and show your proof. I think it would end a lot of bickering if you showed us what you have
Ultima? Any news on this yet?
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Old 09-02-2011, 10:56 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by ultima1 View Post
You are assuming it was planted.

You are assuming it was planted

You are assuming they were under pressure.
I've made no such assumptions, liar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ultima1 View Post
I have posted sources that there were hijackers.
You said it was the DNA that proved there were hijackers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultima1 View Post
No, i am stating that DNA of dead hijackers proves there were hijackers.

The DNA from the Armed Forces Lab proofs there were hijakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultima1 View Post
NO, i am stating DNA was proof there were hijackers.
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Old 10-02-2011, 07:00 AM   #214
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If the highjackers were vapourized or otherwise destroyed in the fires that brought down the towers what proof is there other than speculation that the highjackers were on the planes.
If you did any research you would know that NIST came up with new DNA testing for the WTC.

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/
May 27, 2003 Advances in DNA Analyses Help Identify 9/11 Victims

Quote:
Where are the remains of the highjackers why aren't they being held up for the world to see.
Ask the Armed Forces DNA Lab.

Last edited by ultima1; 10-02-2011 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 10-02-2011, 07:01 AM   #215
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You said it was the DNA that proved there were hijackers...
Along with the other sources i posted.
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:30 AM   #216
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If you did any research you would know that NIST came up with new DNA testing for the WTC.

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/
May 27, 2003 Advances in DNA Analyses Help Identify 9/11 Victims

Good web site:Page Not Available

The page you requested cannot be found at this time. It may be temporarily unavailable or it may have been removed or relocated.

Try using the search box below, or you can try the links above or to the left to find what you are looking for.
Search NIST
Is the result on every page.
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:44 AM   #217
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Good web site:Page Not Available

The page you requested cannot be found at this time. It may be temporarily unavailable or it may have been removed or relocated.
Yes, it looks like it was recently removed or changed. I will see if i can find the original information from the link.
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:54 AM   #218
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Also i have lots of evidence of hijackers.
Third time of asking now, so Ultima, I would really like to see this evidence you speak of please. If you ignore my request yet again, I will assume you do not have the evidence and would like you to retract your above statement.

....however, if you do have evidence...then GREAT!
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Well I feel less proud of my testicles now.
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Old 10-02-2011, 06:17 PM   #219
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Third time of asking now, so Ultima, I would really like to see this evidence you speak of please. If you ignore my request yet again, I will assume you do not have the evidence and would like you to retract your above statement.

....however, if you do have evidence...then GREAT!
Maybe ultima1 has filed an FOIA request for CCTV footage of the hijackers at the airports and he's the only member of the public to have seen it.
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Old 10-02-2011, 06:37 PM   #220
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Third time of asking now, so Ultima, I would really like to see this evidence you speak of please.
I have already posted some.
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