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Old 03-04-2011, 01:56 PM   #1801
thunda
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Originally Posted by knightofthegrail View Post
I do wish people would stop spouting ill-informed nonsense about Belgium. It still has government officers. What it lacks is a National cabinet because the elected members cannot agree on a coalition form. Policy is still in place and being enacted by those officers.
They don't want to stop spouting it because it will break down their carefully constructed cherry picked view of the world.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:05 PM   #1802
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But this is the point, Observer, that people like myself and amaralsright are trying to make in our cheap below the belt jibes ..

YOU may not have a problem with the different slants or takes regarding Anarchy.

But many of those Anarchists WITH different slants or takes WILL have a problem with it when the cold harsh reality hits them and they find others exist with ideas different to their own way of doing things.

Thats when your problems start which eventually lead back along the rocky and painful path to where we are today.
No.
Once again, in pretty simple terms-
You are projecting your subconscious self onto the rest of humanity.
Look at periods during the Ottoman Empire where for hundreds of years there was essentially peaceful co-existence between Christianity Judaism and Islam.
People with very different viewpoints and customs and cultures.
It is completely possible for different human cultures to co-exist alongside each other peacefully.
All you're doing is showing how powerful a grip tptb have on your thinking in your belief that co-existence is not possible. Nothing more.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:07 PM   #1803
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But this is the point, Observer, that people like myself and amaralsright are trying to make in our cheap below the belt jibes ..

YOU may not have a problem with the different slants or takes regarding Anarchy.

But many of those Anarchists WITH different slants or takes WILL have a problem with it when the cold harsh reality hits them and they find others exist with ideas different to their own way of doing things.

Thats when your problems start which eventually lead back along the rocky and painful path to where we are today.
Yes I hear you! I'm sure it will be a challenge and a time of trial and error and all of that, but we will never learn unless we are given the opportunity to discover what works and what does not.

I just believe that even if it takes generations it will eventuate and that its inevitable that it will. There is a reason so many souls have lined up to come here at this time and place, and it couldn't be bad or who'd want to be here.

I know it may seem naive or foolish trusting in a Knowing, but I have learned the hard way not to disregard my inner knowing. And I just know that what we are talking about is the future, even if I never get to witness it firsthand.

Maybe I am only here to help prepare the way and to pass on the vision to others while I do. I don't know.

One day at a time, what more can I do.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:11 PM   #1804
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Originally Posted by faustus View Post
No.
Once again, in pretty simple terms-
You are projecting your subconscious self onto the rest of humanity.
Look at periods during the Ottoman Empire where for hundreds of years there was essentially peaceful co-existence between Christianity Judaism and Islam.
People with very different viewpoints and customs and cultures.
It is completely possible for different human cultures to co-exist alongside each other peacefully.
All you're doing is showing how powerful a grip tptb have on your thinking in your belief that co-existence is not possible. Nothing more.
I seem to remember that the Christians, Jews and Muslims where living under the Rule of Law, protected by the State and the Ottoman Empire. They've still had a few fisticuffs in there time tho, haven't they?

Although, please, do correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:24 PM   #1805
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Oh dear Oh dear. It didn't take much to get all fired up again. And now its back to the us and them.

I know its workable no matter what the appearances because the outer is a product of the inner however unfortunate it may be that we think it the opposite. If we continue to buy into what appears to be, then we believe it and keep it perpetuating.

Faith is the only way out of this vicious circle. The only way.

Its all just a stupid trick, a sleight of hand. We have it all backwards don't you see.

If you havent got faith, please don't try and tear down those who do.

Our faith's not just for us but also for you!!!
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:26 PM   #1806
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No I don't believe this question has been answered.

Q) In an anarco community, does the whole community make the thousands of decisions and organise the logistics to build a hospital or does the community delegate authority to representatives of the community to make decisions and organise logistics for them?

There's been lots of waffle and dancing around it though.

The only realistic answer is "they delegate authority".

A prize for the first "anarchist" to give the only real answer to that question.

Well?

Come on, you'll like the prize.
Have you asked the community want they want yet?
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:28 PM   #1807
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Yes I hear you! I'm sure it will be a challenge and a time of trial and error and all of that, but we will never learn unless we are given the opportunity to discover what works and what does not.

I just believe that even if it takes generations it will eventuate and that its inevitable that it will. There is a reason so many souls have lined up to come here at this time and place, and it couldn't be bad or who'd want to be here.

I know it may seem naive or foolish trusting in a Knowing, but I have learned the hard way not to disregard my inner knowing. And I just know that what we are talking about is the future, even if I never get to witness it firsthand.

Maybe I am only here to help prepare the way and to pass on the vision to others while I do. I don't know.

One day at a time, what more can I do.
As I've said repeatedly - I agree (or I did before this thread!! ) - in the principles behind Anarchy.

But you say yourself :

Quote:
I'm sure it will be a challenge and a time of trial and error and all of that,
Thats where the problem lies. It WILL be those things and more and its during that time when some will demand that things are done THEIR way and would seek to dominate others to bring their vision of what Anarchy is.

I'll be fair here. I do believe, given enough time, that we could settle into this co-operative way of living if everything in the world that governs us today stopped.

But how long is "enough time"? A couple of month? A couple of years? A couple of generations? A couple of hundred years?

It might work in one corner of the world immediately for a small number. And in another corner for others. But its the other two corners where the problems lie.

Because they see you in your corner and envy what you have and they decide they want your corner because your corner has fertile soil, is rich in resources or because they see you're prepared to put the graft in when they aren't prepared to and so seek to dominate you so you work for them instead ..

.. so they come and try and take your corner from you. And do so month after year after generation every century.

You might tell me that thats not the Anarchist way. Maybe not. But its the human way.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:30 PM   #1808
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Another prize for the first "anarchist" to tell Moonstar that you actually would like hospitals in your anarcho communities?

Well?
I would like a hospital in my community, moonstar wouldn't want one in his. We'll probably be in different communities.

We could both be in anarcho-communities though.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:39 PM   #1809
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I would like a hospital in my community, moonstar wouldn't want one in his. We'll probably be in different communities.

We could both be in anarcho-communities though.
What would happen if you paid him a visit but had an accident when there which treatened your life without immediate medical attention and hospitalisation?

You'd die. Wouldn't you? You'd die becausee Mo0nstars community would be having a meeting to try and work out what to do.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:41 PM   #1810
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What would happen if you paid him a visit but had an accident when there which treatened your life without immediate medical attention and hospitalisation?

You'd die. Wouldn't you? You'd die becausee Mo0nstars community would be having a meeting to try and work out what to do.
Same thing that would happen now if I chose to go to some remote community without a hospital.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:46 PM   #1811
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I have hardly worked my whole life and I am 40 this year. Everytime I tried I would end up in a crisis between not desiring to sell my soul and needing the money. I would end up so depressed I would end up incapable of working.

I am in Uni now though and will be working in a few years. However this time I will not be selling my soul. I will be entering in willingly and with a mission.



Yep, it has finally come to this.
I've reached that stage now, where i don't want to work, but i also need money.

I'd love to be able to work for a philanthropic organisation, or even get involved in nature programs.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:46 PM   #1812
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As I've said repeatedly - I agree (or I did before this thread!! ) - in the principles behind Anarchy.

But you say yourself :



Thats where the problem lies. It WILL be those things and more and its during that time when some will demand that things are done THEIR way and would seek to dominate others to bring their vision of what Anarchy is.

I'll be fair here. I do believe, given enough time, that we could settle into this co-operative way of living if everything in the world that governs us today stopped.

But how long is "enough time"? A couple of month? A couple of years? A couple of generations? A couple of hundred years?

It might work in one corner of the world immediately for a small number. And in another corner for others. But its the other two corners where the problems lie.

Because they see you in your corner and envy what you have and they decide they want your corner because your corner has fertile soil, is rich in resources or because they see you're prepared to put the graft in when they aren't prepared to and so seek to dominate you so you work for them instead ..

.. so they come and try and take your corner from you. And do so month after year after generation every century.

You might tell me that thats not the Anarchist way. Maybe not. But its the human way.
It sounds very hollywood to me and what they want us to believe.

Most people who go to war only do so because they have been decieved and our society and culture makes it out to be honorable and the like. I don't think the majority of people really want to be fighting at all.

Those who do like to fight usually do because they are pissed off and venting steam, are full of unresolved resentment or are acting out a BIG F YOU, ALL OF YOU attitude. Its very common and understandable in this society but I don't think it would happen so much in an anarchist society because of the changed conditions.

I don't believe evolution brought us to this point at all. Our evolution has been intefered with and tampered with. I don't see the flow coming back to where we are now at all. Once the sleeping ones have wakened, they will no longer be so easily decieved either. I sure as well won't.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:48 PM   #1813
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What would happen if you paid him a visit but had an accident when there which treatened your life without immediate medical attention and hospitalisation?

You'd die. Wouldn't you? You'd die becausee Mo0nstars community would be having a meeting to try and work out what to do.
Come on now. Thats just silly
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:50 PM   #1814
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Shakes head .. Rolls eyes .. and sighs

This is the perfect example of how a hospital will be built in this Anarchist world ..

We'll just repeat over and over and over what we believe or want in the hope that it eventually turns out it to be real.

"We want a hospital. We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital."

Nope, its still not magically sprung into existence. Funny that - I seem to remember repeatedly saying that Belgium had no government despite all the evidence to the contrary and that was real. Wasn't it?
It still has no elected leaders no matter how many times you think you say otherwise will alter that.
I'm not sure why you have to bring it up in every post as if it gives credence to your fatally flawed views of governance...
For example, I will show you the contradiction;

You posted from Icke;
Quote:
The far far far Left is no different whatsoever to the far far far Right in what their end goals are - the only difference between them are the methods they use to attain those goals
So, it doesn't matter whether it is capitalism or not - no surprise there.
But it is what happens when you have governance at all especially in a monetary system such as this....
Power, greed, corruption etc etc etc....
and that is what always happens - as proven time and time again -
and you advocate it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is the only way around it? Self responsibility.
MASSIVE FUCKING
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:53 PM   #1815
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I've reached that stage now, where i don't want to work, but i also need money.

I'd love to be able to work for a philanthropic organisation, or even get involved in nature programs.
Yes do something where you feel like you can make a difference or learn skills that will help us in our anarchist society.

Maybe how to build a hospital?
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:59 PM   #1816
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What if...
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but what if...
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How does this work...
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Why is the sky blue...
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What is air?
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What is life?
When the great collapse happens these will be the people grovelling at the door of parliament demanding more punishment.
And they'll get it.......... far worse.... and be happy about it rather than trying to think of a better way.
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Old 03-04-2011, 04:12 PM   #1817
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It sounds very hollywood to me and what they want us to believe.

Most people who go to war only do so because they have been decieved and our society and culture makes it out to be honorable and the like. I don't think the majority of people really want to be fighting at all.

Those who do like to fight usually do because they are pissed off and venting steam, are full of unresolved resentment or are acting out a BIG F YOU, ALL OF YOU attitude. Its very common and understandable in this society but I don't think it would happen so much in an anarchist society because of the changed conditions.

I don't believe evolution brought us to this point at all. Our evolution has been intefered with and tampered with. I don't see the flow coming back to where we are now at all. Once the sleeping ones have wakened, they will no longer be so easily decieved either. I sure as well won't.
It all sounds very historical too. People also knew about and rejected Anarchism before Hollywood existed you know .. Or are we talking about the new re-packaged Anarchism fit for 21st Century consumption?

Most people go to war because they desire the resources of another people or to impose their beliefs on somebody else. I thought the US adventures in the Middle East were about the Oil??? Splashed across these forums every day it is. Israels occupation is because they want to claim land and a home of their own all because of what it says in some faith based book somewhere.

Most people fight because they give the BIG F YOU ... thats one reason you gave. You mean a proper punch up not nancy boy fight with Guns? If not, apologies, but there are many reasons why people fight. People get pissed up and lose rational thought - would Anarchists prohibit Alcohol? People fight because someone spills their drink. People fight because someone tries it on with their girlfriend. People fight to prove themselves. People fight to dominate others. People fight to defend their rights.

People fight for many many different reasons because we are emotional creatures. Are all Anarchists Vulcans from Star Trek? Saying that - even THEY fight when its logical to do so. I think an empty stomach which hasn't been fed for 9 days would result in a 98.3% probability of Spock giving you a fist sandwich in return for running off with your spuds to ensure his own survival, Captain.

Is it big? Is it clever? Is it right?

No.

But it happens every day and Anarchism won't change that.
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Old 03-04-2011, 04:26 PM   #1818
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It still has no elected leaders no matter how many times you think you say otherwise will alter that.
I'm not sure why you have to bring it up in every post as if it gives credence to your fatally flawed views of governance...
For example, I will show you the contradiction;

You posted from Icke;


So, it doesn't matter whether it is capitalism or not - no surprise there.
But it is what happens when you have governance at all especially in a monetary system such as this....
Power, greed, corruption etc etc etc....
and that is what always happens - as proven time and time again -
and you advocate it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is the only way around it? Self responsibility.
MASSIVE FUCKING
The ELECTED LEADERS today are the ones who were the ELECTED LEADERS before the election and will remain so while they try and find a way to form a new coalition government!!

You remember last year (don't know if your in the UK or not) when the UK elections failed to produce an overall winner and Dave and Nick were trying to strike a deal to jump in to bed together??

Who was still the Prime-Minister for a week or so whilst they tried to sort it out?? Who was still the government?

Belgium = UK x by a few months.

Here .. heres a friggin' link for you - I've done the hard work, now you only have to do the "easy" part and read the friggin' thing :


Sorry its Wiki. I know it will have been edited by the Boogey Man and the Tooth Fairy to mask the evil machinations trying to hide the "government free land operating in perfect harmony without state interference." crap your trying to indoctrinate people with.

To make it even easier, i'll give you one line as a quote too :

Quote:
Prime Minister Yves Leterme's outgoing government was asked by the King to stay on as a caretaker government with limited powers.
Even if there WAS no government - theres still a friggin' monarchy in place.

Seriosuly, you guys are only here on a wind up, aren't you???

You must be - because I can't believe someobody could be so incredibly naive.
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Old 03-04-2011, 04:32 PM   #1819
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It all sounds very historical too. People also knew about and rejected Anarchism before Hollywood existed you know .. Or are we talking about the new re-packaged Anarchism fit for 21st Century consumption?

Most people go to war because they desire the resources of another people or to impose their beliefs on somebody else. I thought the US adventures in the Middle East were about the Oil??? Splashed across these forums every day it is. Israels occupation is because they want to claim land and a home of their own all because of what it says in some faith based book somewhere.

Most people fight because they give the BIG F YOU ... thats one reason you gave. You mean a proper punch up not nancy boy fight with Guns? If not, apologies, but there are many reasons why people fight. People get pissed up and lose rational thought - would Anarchists prohibit Alcohol? People fight because someone spills their drink. People fight because someone tries it on with their girlfriend. People fight to prove themselves. People fight to dominate others. People fight to defend their rights.

People fight for many many different reasons because we are emotional creatures. Are all Anarchists Vulcans from Star Trek? Saying that - even THEY fight when its logical to do so. I think an empty stomach which hasn't been fed for 9 days would result in a 98.3% probability of Spock giving you a fist sandwich in return for running off with your spuds to ensure his own survival, Captain.

Is it big? Is it clever? Is it right?

No.

But it happens every day and Anarchism won't change that.
The Governments start the wars to gain resources and lie about why they are there. We are saying the same thing except i say its the government and you say its the people. Interesting how you did the opposite when we were discussing who builds a hospital in our current system.

So too are we saying the same about violence. I was just using some examples and you have added more. What I am saying however is that I believe that most of that acting out is venting and attributable to our present state or condition and not attributable to human nature alone.

I used to act out greatly because I was angry and its hard to vent when your anger is attributable to circumstances and faceless entities. We take it out on others cos we are mighty pissed off and frustrated and have to release it somehow.

And as to alcohol, well those who use it as an escape wont need alcohol to escape for escaped they will have. Of course people will still drink but not as bad as they do now.

Of course there will still be fights but that doesnt mean it will get worse without a government. In fact I believe that given some time, it will reduce greatly.

It will take some time, thats all.

Its the damn NATURE vs NURTURE thing again getting in the way here.
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Old 03-04-2011, 04:41 PM   #1820
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The ELECTED LEADERS today are the ones who were the ELECTED LEADERS before the election and will remain so while they try and find a way to form a coalition government!!

You remember last year (don't know if your in the UK or not) when the UK elections failed to produce an overall winner and Dave and Nick were trying to strike a deal to jump in to bed together??

Who was still the Prime-Minister for a week or so whilst they tried to sort it out?? Who was still the government?

Belgium = UK x by a few months.

Here .. heres a friggin' link for you - I've done the hard work, now you only have to do the "easy" part and read the friggin' thing :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2...ment_formation

Sorry its Wiki. I know it will have been edited by the Boogey Man and the Tooth Fairy to mask the evil machinations trying to hide the "government free land operating in perfect harmony without state interference." crap your trying to indoctrinate people with.

To make it even easier, i'll give you one line as a quote too :



Even if there WAS no government - theres still a friggin' monarchy in place.

Seriosuly, you guys are only here on a wind up, aren't you???

You must be - because I can't believe someobody could be so incredibly naive.
Still harping on about that?

There are other things that have been put to you but you are now attempting to bury some key issues by harping on about one point that I couldn't really give a fuck about anyway!
I watched the news the other night.
It said Belgium has no government and the tv crew were going around the place interviewing people asking how different things were.
Nobody was arsed;
they were busy flouting the smoking ban by smoking endless fags in nicotine stained cafes with a big jug of Hoegaarden.
Really sorry I took what I saw on the news at face value, but since I wasn't really bothered about it I didn't thoroughly delve into a load of research on the subject......
Cheers for the hard work....


Quote:
"government free land operating in perfect harmony without state interference." crap your trying to indoctrinate people with.
If that's how you view it I could easily say that converesly,
you are trying to indoctrinate people with the belief that a government MUST exist, because it is all you have ever known.
A thoroughly learned and programmed belief, which has so many flaws,
that the only REAL solution is self responsibility....
but you keep speculating on the outcome...whereas we KNOW what happens with a government.
You keep on denying that.... fine.
Round and round it will go.

So, now to something you keep ignoring;
Is consent to be governed irrelvant?

Last edited by theabominablephenomenon; 03-04-2011 at 04:44 PM.
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