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Old 03-04-2011, 12:05 PM   #1781
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You said long ago you weren't going to bother reading or replying to me. Please. Do that.
What a nugget of history, anthropology and evolution
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:24 PM   #1782
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I keep saying there are 7 Billion people in the world because - hello - there's 7 billion people in the world. So something needs to exist so that those people can feed, survive, have shelter and protection and reproduce - you know,
This is an interesting aspect of the debate, i tried to expound upon this debate about 30 pages ago before yourself and Amara started calling me Fabian.

It is my view the world is that "something" and humans are not separate from it, human civilisation is separate from the world and views the world as a resource to sustain it's separateness, this is based on misunderstanding and above all FEAR, fear of the finitude of the material which sustains us and the subsequent clamouring to alleviate this fear..

All could have complete abundance now, we could rid the world of poverty tomorrow, but that is not the case, because the architects of civilisation, families of entrenched wealth, aristocrats, industrialists and divinely ordained monarchs require those riches, why do they require those riches?

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there's 7 billion people in the world. So something needs to exist so that those people can feed, survive, have shelter and protection and reproduce
This is how civilisation apparently plans to perpetuate itself, under the guise of "need" for global coordination and allocation of resources, what you seem unwilling to consider is that were the resources allowed to prosper naturally, were the world allowed to self regulate, as opposed to subsections of the species regulating the world, there would be no shortage, inequality nor animalistic drive for hoarding etc etc..

I would say human interaction based on Anarchist principles would alleviate the requirement for not only societal groupings (like your Aztec brethren) but also the inequality or requirement leading them to behave in the manner you describe (your projection of latent fascist tendencies) when the colonists landed they weren't all thrown into pots and eaten, they were welcomed with open arms, regardless of their foreign customs, appearance and language.

They were greeted by the Amerindians as Human Brothers, not "bloody immigrants". but I don't think we're going to agree

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Old 03-04-2011, 12:29 PM   #1783
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Don't go down the human psychology path with me, Mo0nstar - I'll happily take you on on that subject until the cows come home.

But if you know ANYTHING about human psychology and behaviour - then you'll know why I'm saying on this thread the things I'm saying.
If my statement is false please feel free to contradict it, it seems YOU need to fight, that does not mean all humans are predisposed to see things that way and your response confirms my initial assertion.

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Old 03-04-2011, 12:46 PM   #1784
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Don't go down the human psychology path with me, Mo0nstar - I'll happily take you on on that subject until the cows come home.

But if you know ANYTHING about human psychology and behaviour - then you'll know why I'm saying on this thread the things I'm saying.
I think I know perfectly why you are saying these things.

You have lost faith in human nature. I can understand that.

Remember I said I was an anarchist when I was younger. I was young enthusiastic and hopeful. Then I experienced some pretty traumatic shit and I lost faith in humanity.

Suddenly Anarchy seemed to be a highly impractical solution and I veered away from it for quite a time.

It wasnt until years later after a spontaneous kundalini awakening brought on by a dark night of the soul that I began to see again.

I saw it was not and had never been human nature, only human condition. I saw there were no evil souls but lost souls and that all negative behaviour stemmed from fear, anger and resentment. It is very easy to get lost when we walk around veiled with amnesia and lost in appearances of the kind that are occurring now upon this earth.

I could go on and on here but I won't.

My point is once again the NATURE VS NURTURE DEBATE.

No-one can put their trust in anarchy without trusting in human nature. This means we must believe that all else is a product of a temporary condition.

Trust in human nature and trust in Anarchy must go hand in hand if we are to believe it to be a very real eventuality.

Lets not get so stressed about who is right and wrong in this debate.

I think I understand and get it now which means I understand where you are coming from and respect that, ok?

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Old 03-04-2011, 12:55 PM   #1785
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Is this based on the same principle that claimed Belgium doesn't have a government? Please. Follow your own Anarchists advice and learn about what it is your trying to demonise before casting stones at it.

Political Parties take ideas all the time from each other. Might not touch the real "core" principles from the opposite ends of the political spectrum, I agree, but opposition parties are always offering alternative solutions to the what the Government in power proposes - THATS THEIR JOB! - and sometimes Governments say "by heck! Blimey! Thats a good idea we should go along with that".

In addition, politicians from all-sides are free to atempt to include ammendments to anything that gets put forward - then the house votes on it whether to include it or not. Its called Representation of the People. So even the opposition can put forward bills because the country doesn't only consist of the people who voted the Government in power - it contains everybody and all have the opportunity to have their voice heard and acted upon.

True, a Government holds a majority in the house and if its a large majority they can easily out-vote anything the opposition puts forward if they wish. But that doesn't always happen.
It's obviously not getting through.... the government assume an authority whether you consent to it or not.
You obviously don't think consent is important.
I'm not saying all the outcomes of what the government do are bad, but people have different views on various issues and the government will always end up doing what represents its vested interests, and more importantly the views and whims of the banks and big corperations who they really work for.
They don't work for the people no matter how much you think you have a say in what goes on - you don't.
Did you tell your MP that you didn't want war on your behalf and you got your own way?
These people that masquerade as authoritarians are nothing more than highly organised crooks,
and have a very nefarious agenda which is slowly screwing everybody and the planet.
This is the end result of capitalism... it cannot be a case of 'oh well we'll just replace them with more moderate leaders' because the whole system is totally open to abuse and corruption and the same things would eventually happen again.
You like them?
You're off your cake.

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Old 03-04-2011, 12:58 PM   #1786
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Thunda believes you can only have community if you are consciously aware of it, if it is intellectually conceived of and observed in obvious perceptible form, what he fails to realise is that even the most remote inaccessible Island is an interconnected part of the whole, regardless of whether anyone has seen it or knows it's existence or not..

Thunda your views are very worldly leading me to believe you have not much interest in spiritual matters, am I correct?

Much of our connection is imperceptible, the community, togetherness you speak of ie in a tangible/physically perceptible sense is mere representation, egoic dramatisation often time inhibiting the reality of interconnectedness..

If you insist on dealing with the sensory and illusory you will misunderstand the nature of life and the inevitable transcendental interconnectivity of EVERYTHING, regardless of egoic perceptions of distance.
I've got a lot of interest in Spirtual Matters. What I haven't got tho is much evidence - if any - that supports theres anything in it.

You see, without evidence - it falls into a Faith based subject thats subjective to the individual. Now everyone in the world has the right to believe anything they want to believe and I respect YOU and YOUR beliefs, whether I agree with them - all or in part - or not at all.

I might have a laugh at a few things you say and shake my head - but you do the same to me.

Because its subjective to the individual - I can't climb into your head and get a full understanding of what your trying to explain and likewise you can't get into my head and truly understand the things I'm saying to counter. When you, I or anyone, understands something - anything - you feel it right down to your bones. You CAN'T explain it in that "finite minute perspective" you mentioned before.

Take Christianity or the other religions of the world - I know your not talking about such things in respect of your Spiritual matters, so don't jump on me - but they are all faith based systems, subjective to the individual. Theres no proof or evidence that there is anything in them - but billions around the world align themselves to one or the other and dedicate their lives, fight, squabble and kill each trying to impose their subjective belief onto other people.

It doesn't matter if they are tools of the PTB to manipulate, control or enslave people - or not. What it shows is that Human Beings seek to cling onto something subjective and without solid basis and enslave themselves to it out of hope for a better future.

Right since the dawn of time - way before the PTBs ever got their grubby little hands on people - the human race has lived on the brink of extinction - even today our mad world its no different, relatively speaking, to the day we first dragged our selves out of the sludge pool.

When we became sentient, due to the harshness of life - and again, we're talking a time way before the PTB ever got an evil little glint in their eyes - we struggled on a day to day basis merely to survive, teetering on the brink of oblivion either because of events of our own making or because of the environment and what Nature through against us.

So to aid us in our quest and to give us hope we looked, to the stars, the animals, the sun, the moon - anywhere we could look - for a sign that "something" else - something out of our control and outside of our perception - existed and that all our struggles would be worth it in the end.

If we pleased this "something" else, it would reward us. If we angered this "something" else, it would punish us. If we believed this "something" else wanted us to go to our neighbours house and eat him, then we would do it so this "something" else would be pleased.

Everything we achieved and everything we destroyed was laid firmly on the shoulders of the "something" else we worshipped. Every misfortune that happened to us must have been because we angered this "something" else and we were being punished.

Every faith based system - whether those religions which eventually blossomed from this "something" else, what you believe or what I believe - is based on the same principle.

As Humans, its been bred into us from the dawn of time to pin all our hopes and dreams on, in my opinion, pure fantasy - either working for or against us - in the hope that our daily struggles are all worth it come the end.

Theres never been ANY evidence whatsoever throughout the history of mankind that "something" else exists. Today, a lot of talk from people is Lizards and Space Aliens - I'm a big believer in the notion that somewhere out there life elsewhere must exist - but its just based on subjective faith on my part as there is no real hard evidence to support it as we speak.

We can talk till the end of time about governments supressing information and hiding the truth from us. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. Nobody here really knows for sure. I don't. Nobody does. Its just an opinion based on faith.

But faith alone won't build a hospital ..

Thats my view. If it differs from you. Fine. Its your right to think differently from what I do. Its also my right to think differently from you.

Who's right? Me. You. All of us. None of us.

But we can all have a laugh and a giggle about those differences on this thread without resorting to personal attacks and insults like many have. Even I have done that myself when its come my way first - which shows what we'll resort to to protect the sanctity of our own "something" else. And thats in this world today, the world in the past or the Anarchist world of tomorrow. Its what WE do.

But thats life. Its harsh. Its a struggle. Its horrible at times. It always has been and always will be. Thats never going to change.

But my advice to myself is simple eal with it and get on with making the most of it.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:12 PM   #1787
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I might have a laugh at a few things you say and shake my head - but you do the same to me.

Right since the dawn of time - way before the PTBs ever got their grubby little hands on people - the human race has lived on the brink of extinction - even today our mad world its no different, relatively speaking, to the day we first dragged our selves out of the sludge pool.

But thats life. Its harsh. Its a struggle. Its horrible at times. It always has been and always will be. Thats never going to change.
I totally understand that each of us has different perspectives, we can choose to laugh at them or accept it as a different perspective.

As you seem to be in favour of the scientific method, perhaps you could prove that we evolved from the sludge you refer to (No missing links allowed).

I'm sorry that you feel life is so harsh, such a struggle and horrible. Again, can you prove that this has always been the case?
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:21 PM   #1788
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You're asking for concrete examples of something hypothetical.
No, I'm asking you to explain how your hypothetical system could ever work in reality.

So far it's Nil on that score.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:22 PM   #1789
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It's obviously not getting through.... the government assume an authority whether you consent to it or not.
You obviously don't think consent is important.
I'm not saying all the outcomes of what the government do are bad, but people have different views on various issues and the government will always end up doing what represents its vested interests, and more importantly the views and whims of the banks and big corperations who they really work for.
They don't work for the people no matter how much you think you have a say in what goes on - you don't.
Did you tell your MP that you didn't want war on your behalf and you got your own way?
These people that masquerade as authoritarians are nothing more than highly organised crooks,
and have a very nefarious agenda which is slowly screwing everybody and the planet.
This is the end result of capitalism... it cannot be a case of 'oh well we'll just replace them with more moderate leaders' because the whole system is totally open to abuse and corruption and the same things would eventually happen again.
You like them?
You're off your cake.
Look, you still believe Belgium doesn't have a government - so how can anything else you say be taken with any credibility?? Look out your window - the real worlds out there.

Why do you keep telling me all this anyway? I've been researching this stuff from before many on this forum were probably even born - now that doesn't qualify me as an expert unlike your good Elitist self - but all this stuff I'm aware of and was aware of when many here still believed in the tooth fairy (some probably still do .. )

So who are you REALLY trying to convince with your consistant Anti-Capitalist agenda you keep spamming all over the place?

I'm certainly no Capitalist. HA! Fuck, no chance. So its definitely not me. But if it is an attempt to coerce me to your ways of thinking - why is it so important to YOU that I'm convinced by it?

The way I see it, you seem so driven to get as many others as possible to buy into what you believe that you don't even realise your becoming the monster your trying to defeat.

To quote myself and Mr D. Icke himself :

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The far far far Left is no different whatsoever to the far far far Right in what their end goals are - the only difference between them are the methods they use to attain those goals
You REALLY REALLY REALLY don't "get it" yourself, do you?
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:23 PM   #1790
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Private corporations and anarchy.

So all the "anarchists" here agree that private corporations and anarchy are in harmony?

Really?

Lets see.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:29 PM   #1791
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I've got a lot of interest in Spirtual Matters. What I haven't got tho is much evidence - if any - that supports theres anything in it.

You see, without evidence - it falls into a Faith based subject thats subjective to the individual. Now everyone in the world has the right to believe anything they want to believe and I respect YOU and YOUR beliefs, whether I agree with them - all or in part - or not at all.

I might have a laugh at a few things you say and shake my head - but you do the same to me.

Because its subjective to the individual - I can't climb into your head and get a full understanding of what your trying to explain and likewise you can't get into my head and truly understand the things I'm saying to counter. When you, I or anyone, understands something - anything - you feel it right down to your bones. You CAN'T explain it in that "finite minute perspective" you mentioned before.

Take Christianity or the other religions of the world - I know your not talking about such things in respect of your Spiritual matters, so don't jump on me - but they are all faith based systems, subjective to the individual. Theres no proof or evidence that there is anything in them - but billions around the world align themselves to one or the other and dedicate their lives, fight, squabble and kill each trying to impose their subjective belief onto other people.

It doesn't matter if they are tools of the PTB to manipulate, control or enslave people - or not. What it shows is that Human Beings seek to cling onto something subjective and without solid basis and enslave themselves to it out of hope for a better future.

Right since the dawn of time - way before the PTBs ever got their grubby little hands on people - the human race has lived on the brink of extinction - even today our mad world its no different, relatively speaking, to the day we first dragged our selves out of the sludge pool.

When we became sentient, due to the harshness of life - and again, we're talking a time way before the PTB ever got an evil little glint in their eyes - we struggled on a day to day basis merely to survive, teetering on the brink of oblivion either because of events of our own making or because of the environment and what Nature through against us.

So to aid us in our quest and to give us hope we looked, to the stars, the animals, the sun, the moon - anywhere we could look - for a sign that "something" else - something out of our control and outside of our perception - existed and that all our struggles would be worth it in the end.

If we pleased this "something" else, it would reward us. If we angered this "something" else, it would punish us. If we believed this "something" else wanted us to go to our neighbours house and eat him, then we would do it so this "something" else would be pleased.

Everything we achieved and everything we destroyed was laid firmly on the shoulders of the "something" else we worshipped. Every misfortune that happened to us must have been because we angered this "something" else and we were being punished.

Every faith based system - whether those religions which eventually blossomed from this "something" else, what you believe or what I believe - is based on the same principle.

As Humans, its been bred into us from the dawn of time to pin all our hopes and dreams on, in my opinion, pure fantasy - either working for or against us - in the hope that our daily struggles are all worth it come the end.

Theres never been ANY evidence whatsoever throughout the history of mankind that "something" else exists. Today, a lot of talk from people is Lizards and Space Aliens - I'm a big believer in the notion that somewhere out there life elsewhere must exist - but its just based on subjective faith on my part as there is no real hard evidence to support it as we speak.

We can talk till the end of time about governments supressing information and hiding the truth from us. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. Nobody here really knows for sure. I don't. Nobody does. Its just an opinion based on faith.

But faith alone won't build a hospital ..

Thats my view. If it differs from you. Fine. Its your right to think differently from what I do. Its also my right to think differently from you.

Who's right? Me. You. All of us. None of us.

But we can all have a laugh and a giggle about those differences on this thread without resorting to personal attacks and insults like many have. Even I have done that myself when its come my way first - which shows what we'll resort to to protect the sanctity of our own "something" else. And thats in this world today, the world in the past or the Anarchist world of tomorrow. Its what WE do.

But thats life. Its harsh. Its a struggle. Its horrible at times. It always has been and always will be. Thats never going to change.

But my advice to myself is simple eal with it and get on with making the most of it.
Hey It's really nice the way everyone has settled down around here so we are able to get around the differences. Your ok. Different assumptions form the foundations of your belief systems but thats ok with me.

As to the Spiritual Interests and the groundhog day feeling, I had that too. Then one day I decided I would no longer settle for not knowing. So I kicked up a real fuss and demanded to know. I needed proof. I threw a total tanty at the creator or whatever the bloody hell was out there and at my Higher Self. I decided nothing else mattered anymore and I was going on strike from everything in my life until I knew. Then I broke down and all the pain and the anger and the sadness came flooding out, a dark night indeed.

(yep, i was a total drama queen I tell ya)

Then I got my proof

I still can't prove it to anyone else though, but I got what I asked for, what I needed to know.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:29 PM   #1792
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What if in an anarchist community someone decided to form a private corporation that let you deposit your wealth for safe keeping and then issued pieces of paper to that could be used as promisary notes to be used for exchange of goods with other private corporations?

Anarchists could have no problem with that, surely?

It's a private corporation and at least one "anarchist" has said private corporations are OK.

You all agree?
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:30 PM   #1793
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I totally understand that each of us has different perspectives, we can choose to laugh at them or accept it as a different perspective.

As you seem to be in favour of the scientific method, perhaps you could prove that we evolved from the sludge you refer to (No missing links allowed).

I'm sorry that you feel life is so harsh, such a struggle and horrible. Again, can you prove that this has always been the case?
I'm not even going to bother. As 444whatever-his-name keeps saying :

Quote:
For the 9334th time. actually go and read some literature on the subject of Evolution and then we can have an adult conversation about it.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:33 PM   #1794
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Hey It's really nice the way everyone has settled down around here so we are able to get around the differences. Your ok. Different assumptions form the foundations of your belief systems but thats ok with me.

As to the Spiritual Interests and the groundhog day feeling, I had that too. Then one day I decided I would no longer settle for not knowing. So I kicked up a real fuss and demanded to know. I needed proof. I threw a total tanty at the creator or whatever the bloody hell was out there and at my Higher Self. I decided nothing else mattered anymore and I was going on strike from everything in my life until I knew. Then I broke down and all the pain and the anger and the sadness came flooding out, a dark night indeed.

(yep, i was a total drama queen I tell ya)

Then I got my proof

I still can't prove it to anyone else though, but I got what I asked for, what I needed to know.
Thats all that matters. At least some round here do actually "get it" - I'll definitely share a Chocolate Cake with you in this Anarchist world. If we can agree on how to make it ..
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:35 PM   #1795
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What if in an anarchist community someone decided to form a private corporation that let you deposit your wealth for safe keeping and then issued pieces of paper to that could be used as promisary notes to be used for exchange of goods with other private corporations?

Anarchists could have no problem with that, surely?

It's a private corporation and at least one "anarchist" has said private corporations are OK.

You all agree?
I'm pretty sure it was private enterprises, not private corporations.

As has been stated before, there are different slants or takes regarding Anarchy. I don't have a problem with that.

Guilds would be in a sense like private enterprises even if no actual money was involved, as would co-ops or each and every house or hospital In fact you might say each and everyone of us would be a walking talking private enterprise.

This is all hypothetical so when asked for examples we can only use examples taken from our present system. I see it as metaphorical more than anything.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:38 PM   #1796
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Thats all that matters. At least some round here do actually "get it" - I'll definitely share a Chocolate Cake with you in this Anarchist world. If we can agree on how to make it ..
Oh yes, chocolate cake with whipped cream, and a nice espresso coffee. Indeed.



P.S. Please Amaral don't ask me how we will build the cafe or espresso machine
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"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it" ~ Albert Einstein

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Old 03-04-2011, 01:43 PM   #1797
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Look, you still believe Belgium doesn't have a government - so how can anything else you say be taken with any credibility?? Look out your window - the real worlds out there.[
It doesn't have a government. Just administrators at the moment.
So how does that lack credibility in the slightest?
I'm not sure why you keep banging on about that.
It was on the TV, so it's true!

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Why do you keep telling me all this anyway? I've been researching this stuff from before many on this forum were probably even born - now that doesn't qualify me as an expert unlike your good Elitist self - but all this stuff I'm aware of and was aware of when many here still believed in the tooth fairy (some probably still do .. )
Er, you keep saying we need a government, you have a say in how things go,
and you think it is the only way life can work.
So, I'm showing you that it is nothing more than a crock of shit because you seem oblivious to the obvious,
and neglect very important isssues such as assumed authority, and consent.


Quote:
So who are you REALLY trying to convince with your consistant Anti-Capitalist agenda you keep spamming all over the place?
Looking back through the thread I can see a lot of spam, most of it by you arguing the toss over something you are apparently expected to just be listened to without further thought or reasoning from others....

Quote:
I'm certainly no Capitalist. HA! Fuck, no chance. So its definitely not me. But if it is an attempt to coerce me to your ways of thinking - why is it so important to YOU that I'm convinced by it?
I'm not in the slightest bit arsed what you think,
but you have an authoritarian attitude and the need for a nannying state,
which I don't agree with or need - being a grown up and that...


Quote:
The way I see it, you seem so driven to get as many others as possible to buy into what you believe that you don't even realise your becoming the monster your trying to defeat.
Now you are just waffling.. again.
It seems to me that you are the one trying to get everybody to come round to your way of thinking - and from a very negative mindset at that.

Quote:
To quote myself and Mr D. Icke himself :

You REALLY REALLY REALLY don't "get it" yourself, do you?
No, because that was not relevant.

You're just arguing the toss over nothing when you aren't even sure what your own ideas are.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:46 PM   #1798
thunda
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Originally Posted by observer333 View Post
As has been stated before, there are different slants or takes regarding Anarchy. I don't have a problem with that.
But this is the point, Observer, that people like myself and amaralsright are trying to make in our cheap below the belt jibes ..

YOU may not have a problem with the different slants or takes regarding Anarchy.

But many of those Anarchists WITH different slants or takes WILL have a problem with it when the cold harsh reality hits them and they find others exist with ideas different to their own way of doing things.

Thats when your problems start which eventually lead back along the rocky and painful path to where we are today.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:49 PM   #1799
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It doesn't have a government. Just administrators at the moment.
I do wish people would stop spouting ill-informed nonsense about Belgium. It still has government officers. What it lacks is a National cabinet because the elected members cannot agree on a coalition form. Policy is still in place and being enacted by those officers.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:55 PM   #1800
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It doesn't have a government. Just administrators at the moment.
So how does that lack credibility in the slightest?
I'm not sure why you keep banging on about that.
It was on the TV, so it's true!
Shakes head .. Rolls eyes .. and sighs

This is the perfect example of how a hospital will be built in this Anarchist world ..

We'll just repeat over and over and over what we believe or want in the hope that it eventually turns out it to be real.

"We want a hospital. We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital.We want a hospital."

Nope, its still not magically sprung into existence. Funny that - I seem to remember repeatedly saying that Belgium had no government despite all the evidence to the contrary and that was real. Wasn't it?
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