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Old 17-11-2014, 06:30 PM   #3701
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
.
Accusation noted.

Why do you try and disrupt any decent thread on this forum?

People are having a civilised conversation, without any animosity.

You are adding nothing of value.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 17-11-2014, 06:33 PM   #3702
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"love is the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle."
-hunter s thompson

btw .. i CHOOSE to ride.
No one is saying that you do not choose.

Just that your choice is not free.

You will always be caused to go for a ride.

And if you analyse your choice you will find the cause.

And if you follow that train of thought, you will be there for a very long time and you will reach the same conclusion as me, it is inevitable.

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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 17-11-2014, 07:22 PM   #3703
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You are not seeing the paradox.

How is it possible to do anything other that what god "knew" you were going to do?

It is impossible right?

For if you did something other than god knew what you were going to do, god didn't know you were going to do it.

And if god knew you were going to do it "before" you did it, in no way could you have exercised your free will.

Wether God knows everything is completely besides the point, it has absolutely nothing to do with free will.

So God knows everything, fantastic, but I don't and neither do you. Therefore free will can still exist right now.

God knows that each of us will die, but how we live and what we do is up to us, there is no paradox whatsoever. Why can't you understand such a simple idea?

Your issue is that you believe that only a few of us will become enlightened, a belief that I find totally bizarre.
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Old 17-11-2014, 07:29 PM   #3704
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Wether God knows everything is completely besides the point, it has absolutely nothing to do with free will.

So God knows everything, fantastic, but I don't and neither do you. Therefore free will can still exist right now.

God knows that each of us will die, but how we live and what we do is up to us, there is no paradox whatsoever. Why can't you understand such a simple idea?

Your issue is that you believe that only a few of us will become enlightened, a belief that I find totally bizarre.
It's only besides the point if you believe that god doesn't know anything.

If you believe that god knows everything, it is absolutely important to the idea of free will.

And your last sentence proves yet again that you don't grasp what I am saying.

I have repeated throughout this thread, very consistently, that the spiritual aspect of us will definitely become enlightened through this physical experience.

I have no idea how you keep missing it.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 17-11-2014, 07:42 PM   #3705
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post



Could you give me an example of a feeling that isn't invoked?

I cant think of one, all feelings are caused.

Feelings are constrained by what causes those feelings, they have to be.
Of course feelings are caused, that not the point.

The point is that feelings aren't thoughts, and no thought process means no constraints, just the feeling.

A picture of a dead body might cause a feeling of sadness or fear, or joy and happiness in others. If there is a constraint it's down to the individuals character, not the thing causing the feelings.

So, a person with a good character, will feel something completely different to a selfish person, therefore it's not the cause that sets the effect, it's the individual.

This can only happen with free will.
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Old 17-11-2014, 07:48 PM   #3706
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Of course feelings are caused, that not the point.

The point is that feelings aren't thoughts, and no thought process means no constraints, just the feeling.

A picture of a dead body might cause a feeling of sadness or fear, or joy and happiness in others. If there is a constraint it's down to the individuals character, not the thing causing the feelings.

So, a person with a good character, will feel something completely different to a selfish person, therefore it's not the cause that sets the effect, it's the individual.

This can only happen with free will.
I have highlighted the important bit, you unwittingly answered your own question.

The character is caused, just like everything else and as such the feeling that is caused has nothing to do with free will.

Why would you think that a character isn't caused?
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 17-11-2014, 07:51 PM   #3707
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God allegedly knows everything that will happen, he knows every hair on our head, for example.

So he must know who is going to become enlightened and who isn't, from the dawn of time.
How do I keep missing it?

Well when you write this, it doesn't help.

"so he must know who is going to become enlightened and who isn't,"

How is this being consistent? It isn't, your changing your story as you go along.
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Old 17-11-2014, 08:19 PM   #3708
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
I have highlighted the important bit, you unwittingly answered your own question.

The character is caused, just like everything else and as such the feeling that is caused has nothing to do with free will.

Why would you think that a character isn't caused?
Characters aren't caused, we are born with them.

Twins..two people, same DNA, completely different characters.

The important bit in my last post was that feelings aren't constrained. Yes they are caused, but this outside influence affects different people in different ways. And besides this, we get to choose wether we act upon our feelings or our thoughts, or both, or neither....
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Old 17-11-2014, 08:21 PM   #3709
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
It's only besides the point if you believe that god doesn't know anything.

If you believe that god knows everything, it is absolutely important to the idea of free will.

And your last sentence proves yet again that you don't grasp what I am saying.

I have repeated throughout this thread, very consistently, that the spiritual aspect of us will definitely become enlightened through this physical experience.

I have no idea how you keep missing it.
No it's not absolutely important to the idea of free will.

Look, God knows everything, you don't. Simple.
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Old 17-11-2014, 08:48 PM   #3710
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
The bit in bold introduces a paradox to gods will, which I haven't been able to solve.

God allegedly knows everything that will happen, he knows every hair on our head, for example.

So he must know who is going to become enlightened and who isn't, from the dawn of time.

That being the case, how can i use my free will to become enlightened, if I was never going to become enlightened?

You see the problem? If God "knows" what is going to happen, how can we deviate from the plan?
So which is it?

Some of us, or all of us?
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Old 17-11-2014, 09:46 PM   #3711
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
Accusation noted.

Why do you try and disrupt any decent thread on this forum?

People are having a civilised conversation, without any animosity.

You are adding nothing of value.
Tell you what, Wolfy, I'll let you carry on being two-faced: debating with people here while slagging them off elsewhere...........
it will be our secret, eh, Wofly!

( I notice you're not denying it anymore. If I was you, Wolfy, I wouldn't either)

But I swear I won't tell anybody, desert boy! it will be our big secret!

Ssshhhh........now

Last edited by seanx; 17-11-2014 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 18-11-2014, 05:00 AM   #3712
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Originally Posted by neilbe View Post
How do I keep missing it?

Well when you write this, it doesn't help.

"so he must know who is going to become enlightened and who isn't,"

How is this being consistent? It isn't, your changing your story as you go along.
I have been very consistent from the beginning of this thread.

I have said that spirit/soul evolves through our physical existence/reality.

And that it needs all experience to evolve fully.

I have tried to keep up with you mixing and matching of philosophies.

"Enlightened" is such a subjective word, I am sure people can become enlightened on this physical plane, most do not though, but all of spirit will become enlightened.

The confusion comes from you thinking that neilbe is spirit, he isn't neilbe will end when your physical shell dies, neilbe is a pure 100% product of this physical realm, neilbe didn't exist before your conception and neilbe will end with your shells death.

Although your spirit will carry on.

Stop looking for inconsistencies where there are none.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 18-11-2014, 05:05 AM   #3713
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Characters aren't caused, we are born with them.

Twins..two people, same DNA, completely different characters.

The important bit in my last post was that feelings aren't constrained. Yes they are caused, but this outside influence affects different people in different ways. And besides this, we get to choose wether we act upon our feelings or our thoughts, or both, or neither....
Why would you think that being born with a character doesn't mean it isn't caused.

Everything is caused

From conception the baby grows, it has nine months to develop a character before it is born, in the case of twins they are fighting for position and dominance in a confined space before they are born, of course they can have a different character.

Feelings are constrained, everything is constrained, why would you think they aren't? Feelings are most definitely constrained, even if it is death that constrains them.

And again, you have absolutely no choice whether you act or not.

Whatever you do, you were always going to do, from the dawn of time
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 18-11-2014, 05:06 AM   #3714
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No it's not absolutely important to the idea of free will.

Look, God knows everything, you don't. Simple.
You are missing the point.

I will simplify it as much as i can.

If god knew you were always going to turn right at the junction.

It is impossible to turn left.

See it?
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 18-11-2014, 05:09 AM   #3715
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
.
I have denied you twice, do I have to deny you three times?

Do you think you are Jesus?
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:19 AM   #3716
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I have been very consistent from the beginning of this thread.

I have said that spirit/soul evolves through our physical existence/reality.

And that it needs all experience to evolve fully.

I have tried to keep up with you mixing and matching of philosophies.

"Enlightened" is such a subjective word, I am sure people can become enlightened on this physical plane, most do not though, but all of spirit will become enlightened.

The confusion comes from you thinking that neilbe is spirit, he isn't neilbe will end when your physical shell dies, neilbe is a pure 100% product of this physical realm, neilbe didn't exist before your conception and neilbe will end with your shells death.

Although your spirit will carry on.

Stop looking for inconsistencies where there are none.
I'm not looking for inconsistencies, you said you had a paradox that you couldn't figure out, I straightened it out, you ignored it.

And as for, some will become enlightened on this physical plane....thing is Sandy, it ain't over yet, we are still striving to create an enlightened society, by using free will.

And just to be clear, enlightened means to be awake, in the moment, that's all.

And as for my mix and matching philosophies,thats called having an open mind.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:31 AM   #3717
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
You are missing the point.

I will simplify it as much as i can.

If god knew you were always going to turn right at the junction.

It is impossible to turn left.

See it?
Ok, let's rewind to seconds, we have assumed that God knows everything, fine, every possibility, every choice and outcome, parallel multi-verses and the such...

Now we have free will, and God still knows....simple enough for you?
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:34 AM   #3718
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I'm not looking for inconsistencies, you said you had a paradox that you couldn't figure out, I straightened it out, you ignored it.
You haven't straightened the paradox, you don't understand the paradox.

How can you use your free will to go left, when god Knew you were always going to go right?


Quote:
And as for, some will become enlightened on this physical plane....thing is Sandy, it ain't over yet, we are still striving to create an enlightened society, by using free will.
Who said it was over?

It will only be over for neilbe when you die.


Quote:
And just to be clear, enlightened means to be awake, in the moment, that's all.
To you maybe, it means a lot of things to a lot of people.

Quote:
And as for my mix and matching philosophies,thats called having an open mind.
You cant invoke re incarnation into the Abrahamic story.

Well you can but you are just making things up to suit yourself.

No Christian, Muslim, Jew believes in re incarnation and it is not written about in any of the books and similar, no Hindu Buddhist believes that when we die we wait in limbo for judgment day.

If you believe the two are compatible then fine
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:37 AM   #3719
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Ok, let's rewind to seconds, we have assumed that God knows everything, fine, every possibility, every choice and outcome, parallel multi-verses and the such...

Now we have free will, and God still knows....simple enough for you?
No

Please tell me how you can go left, when god always knew you were going to go right.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:41 AM   #3720
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
Why would you think that being born with a character doesn't mean it isn't caused.

Everything is caused

From conception the baby grows, it has nine months to develop a character before it is born, in the case of twins they are fighting for position and dominance in a confined space before they are born, of course they can have a different character.

Feelings are constrained, everything is constrained, why would you think they aren't? Feelings are most definitely constrained, even if it is death that constrains them.

And again, you have absolutely no choice whether you act or not.

Whatever you do, you were always going to do, from the dawn of time
I'll admit that feelings are caused, but not constrained..

How can you constrain the utter helplessness, and joy, and sadness, and fear, and every other feeling and emotion that falling in love brings?

How is that constrained?

I think the difference between you and I besides the obvious is this. You believe we have a choice, but it's not free. I believe everything is caused yet we can still get to make a free choice.....sometimes.

Thing is Sandy, one of these ideas creates an empowered human being, the other runs the risk of getting rolled over...
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