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Old 22-09-2012, 12:45 PM   #241
sandwarrior
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Originally Posted by sloloris View Post
Yes we are responsible for our actions, even though cause and effect comes into play.

Every human being has been given free-will. If you deny that then i guess its because its a relatively new thing. Free-will. but it does exist.

The responsibility comes down to how you react and handle one main factor: Stress.

God gives all humans choice and freedoms.

Some say this was because of Enki disobeying his elders and he believed humans should have magic and knowledge instead of obedience.

For instance, stress causes me to smoke, the nasty smoke will not serve my body well and might make me ill in the future. I have a choice not to smoke. but at the moment my choice is to smoke. We have free-will,
but we are not gods nor immortal. we are on Earth, in a process of life and approaching death. What is this really? we still dont know. but to say that we are merely just acting out a programmed pantomime is quite defeating.


True story.
I know, it sems obvious doesn't it?

All you have to do is give me a situation or thought that isn't caused, if you cant, then free will doesn't exist.

It really is a simple test.

Edit: Whether you have a ciggarette or not is totally not free, you desicion is entirely based on causality and in no way free.

Also realising that we have no free will is far from defeating, it is totally liberating. The realisation that you are not guilty for past events and the realisation that the way you acted that causes you grief was in fact the only way you could have acted, is like a massive sigh of relief, of course this also means that you will never act like that again as the raising in your consciousness makes you realise the total causality of the situation.
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Old 22-09-2012, 12:52 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by tony 1 View Post
Seanx,

I agree with much of what you are saying re that our actions are not governed by 'God's will' and that we do have our own 'free will' and can exercise it. However, we can only do that in a relative sense here on earth.
Just one example of you excersising your free wil?

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The law of cause and effect is also an aspect of relativity - in the finite universe everything is relative and duality prevails and everything that manifests in concrete form is thus subject to duality, and limitation. It is also subject to the law of cause and effect - if we pretend otherwise we end up with a some sort of thesis based on absolute chance.
Yes.

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All change of position, substance, or form is the result of some form of causality; there is no such thing as absolute chance. Nothing can happen for no reason at all for nothing exists in isolation; everything is part of an intricate web of causal interconnections and interactions.
Definitly, Chance and co-incidence do not exist. They are just words that we employ to make sense of seemingly random occurences, which in fact are not random at all.

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Causal laws do not preclude the responsibility for our actions neither do they preclude our free will which is consistent with cause and effect. If free will cannot be a fortuitous phenomenon it must therefore be a causal phenomenon as it involves selfconscious self-determinism.
They must do, if we accept cause and effect, then we are definitly not responsible for our action, how can we be. We are a direct product of our experience and our environmment, as I said before, if you had EXACTLY the same experience and envioronment as Adolf Hitler, you woul have acted in EXACTLY the same way.

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How is it possible for an abstraction referred to as God that is supposed to be infinite and separate from us to also have concrete attributes such as will, and be capable of an act or acts of willing anything and also of acting in accordance with such a will in relation to finities?
Depends totally on what your concept of God is. My concept of God doesn't involve him willng anything once everything started, it was all only going to happen one way and the soul was going to experience every single thing the reality has to offer.

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If such a deity is responsible for everything that happens in the universe because it is his own direct doing; and the supposition, absurd as it is, likewise forbids the existence of free will and self-initiative in any minutest degree in any entity. This is not to say that the archetype or prototype of the Will does not exist within the infinitude of the Boundless All, but THAT is not a personal God as Sandwarrior seems to suggest but Will in that sense is not a concrete will of any particular concrete human being.
Your philosophy proposes a God with a will and he is responsible for everything then supposes that we have a free will, which could presumably go against Gods will.

You see the problem?

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Only finite beings have wills that can actually be exercised or acted upon if they have been developed in the course of spiritual evolution.
Will is totally different to free will.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.

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Old 22-09-2012, 01:59 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
let's say a person has a cancer tumour?

Do you think it is possible ( although I accept for the majority of us because of our belief systems
not a likely probability)........but do you believe it is possible for a person to instantly shift their reality
to a reality where the tumour no longer exists?
What happens in the reality where it still exists?
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Old 22-09-2012, 02:02 PM   #244
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You aren't shifting reality, there ain't no turning that page. There are rules you know.
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Old 22-09-2012, 04:03 PM   #245
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Seanx wrote

Quote:
let's say a person has a cancer tumour?

Do you think it is possible (although I accept for the majority of us because of our belief systems not a likely probability)........but do you believe it is possible for a person to instantly shift their reality to a reality where the tumour no longer exists?
Depends on the precise meaning you give to the term 'reality'.


However, I can tell you this. Nothing can manifest on the physical plane of existence without its spiritual archetype or astral prototype and that not only applies to all cancerous tumours but to eveything else in the universe.

If you mean shifting one's conscious attention away from the cancer (reality)
and directing it elswhere onto something else (another reality) which is not the cancer - then the answer is yes. Your foot for example, does not exist in your consciousness until I bring your attention to it -the same applies to the cancer unless of course you are in pain or discomfort. The focus on an image which is also psychically real would also suffice - a mandala for example, or even a mantra providing the person is not in too much pain or discomfort.

However, if you mean a shift in consciousness to a higher level of conscious 'reality' within the Self beyond the cancer that has now become manifest in the physical body - then the answer is also affirmative - but that will depend on person's level of spiritual development and ability to focus on certain inner thoughts and images other than those associated with the cancer.

Nevertheless, if the cancer is due to the person's karma recorded in his/her Causal Body it may be the only possible way of discharging the soul's particular karmic burden no matter what level consciousness is shifted to.

Further, if that is the case then all treatment given is likely to have either little or no effect and the cancer will run its progessive course no matter what. That does not imply that the person should not try every possible palliative and other treatments that are available whether it be mainstream or alternative, or that such treatments are no good - they may work for somebody else whose personal karmic circumstances are different.

The impression and 'record' of the development of such a tumour, and indeed the characteristics of the cancer itself that developed in the physical body of the person in question would always remain in the akasha even though the person on earth may now be entirely free of that tumour due to other reasons.

Hope this helps,

Om Tat Sat
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Old 22-09-2012, 04:42 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
What happens in the reality where it still exists?
It is no longer actualized. Consciousness has shifted to another reality.
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Old 22-09-2012, 04:54 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by tony 1 View Post
Seanx wrote



Depends on the precise meaning you give to the term 'reality'.


However, I can tell you this. Nothing can manifest on the physical plane of existence without its spiritual archetype or astral prototype and that not only applies to all cancerous tumours but to eveything else in the universe.

If you mean shifting one's conscious attention away from the cancer (reality)
and directing it elswhere onto something else (another reality) which is not the cancer - then the answer is yes. Your foot for example, does not exist in your consciousness until I bring your attention to it -the same applies to the cancer unless of course you are in pain or discomfort. The focus on an image which is also psychically real would also suffice - a mandala for example, or even a mantra providing the person is not in too much pain or discomfort.

However, if you mean a shift in consciousness to a higher level of conscious 'reality' within the Self beyond the cancer that has now become manifest in the physical body - then the answer is also affirmative - but that will depend on person's level of spiritual development and ability to focus on certain inner thoughts and images other than those associated with the cancer.

Nevertheless, if the cancer is due to the person's karma recorded in his/her Causal Body it may be the only possible way of discharging the soul's particular karmic burden no matter what level consciousness is shifted to.

Further, if that is the case then all treatment given is likely to have either little or no effect and the cancer will run its progessive course no matter what. That does not imply that the person should not try every possible palliative and other treatments that are available whether it be mainstream or alternative, or that such treatments are no good - they may work for somebody else whose personal karmic circumstances are different.

The impression and 'record' of the development of such a tumour, and indeed the characteristics of the cancer itself that developed in the physical body of the person in question would always remain in the akasha even though the person on earth may now be entirely free of that tumour due to other reasons.

Hope this helps,

Om Tat Sat
Most of that I can accept but i think even the karma thing can be trancended once you
reach a certain level of consciousness and realize this whole reality is an illusion and essentially a game.

At this expanded level of consciousness -there is no cause and effect in the terms we know it.
Nor is there a succession of moments that follow one after the other.


.........And without a succession of moments following one after the other the idea of cause and effect
becomes meaningless. It has to be in a reality where neither the past nor the future exist.

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Old 22-09-2012, 05:07 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
It is no longer actualized. Consciousness has shifted to another reality.
So one reality no longer exists?

What happens to me in that reality? Does that clone of me no longer exist?

Because somebody focused intently on removing a cancer, one of my infinite realities was extinguished?

Hope it wasn't the one with the soul in.

There is only one reality, at first there were infinite possibilities but once started only one was ever possible.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.

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Old 22-09-2012, 05:14 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
Most of that I can accept but i think even the karma thing can be trancended once you
reach a certain level of consciousness and realize this whole reality is an illusion and essentially a game.
IMO, Karma is just another religious belief that keeps people paralysed with the feeling that everything bad that happens is their fault, just like the idea of free will.

A cancer is attributed to something the soul did in a previous life!

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At this expanded level of consciousness -there is no cause and effect in the terms we know it.
Nor is there a succession of moments that follow one after the other.
The level of consciousness that you speak of is the point when the soul no longer has to incarnate on this dimension and yes, it would be free from the laws of cause and effect.

Quote:
.........And without a succession of moments following one after the other the idea of cause and effect
becomes meaningless.
You have just said that
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.

Last edited by sandwarrior; 22-09-2012 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:20 PM   #250
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sandwarrior;

Can you not see that this philosophy permits absolutely everything, every single variation, as you put it. So when you call my variation of reality nonsense you are totally contradicting yourself, as if there are infinite possibilities then my version of reality is one of them hence not nonsense.
Is the light beginning to shine.

Yes, your reality is just as valid - just boring, defeatist and meaningless. But it is still your version of reality that you are living out.


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The problem you have is that your philosophy isn't your philosophy, it is David Ickes, so you don't fully understand it as you have gotten it out of books, you haven't lived it and experienced it, it is Davids reality, as the one I decribe is mine.
What a fucking cheek of me to quote Icke on his own forum!!! How terrible!

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You did'n't answer my question about "where am I in these different realities? how many copies of me are there? Which one is the soul incarnated into? etc
The soul???
What is this 'soul' you talk about?

As for which is the real you you tell me?

Let's imagine this wild thought experiment?

let's say you got married last week and being a popular lad, you invited
over a billion of your friends to the wedding and all they created DVD of
your wedding.

Now you have a billions DVD'S or versions of you getting married. In these DVD'S which
one of you is the real one?





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No it doesn't, it sees the future, past and present exactly as it should be due to the law of cause and effect, hence it knows which experience it nis going to get when it incarnates, if it could just incarnate into any infinite variation it choosed, what would be the point? It would be totally pointless.
No, you are making the assumption that consciousness actualizes all the potential realities.

That may not be the case, they may just exist as potential realities that are only actualized if
consciousness decides to embody or experience that reality.

Otherwise, yes I can see your point here, it would be pointless.


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We cant release oursleves from cause and effect, our bodies are nothing, ashes to ashes dust to dust. BUT the soul, once released from this mortal coil, once it has evolved so it doesn't have to incarnate any more, then yes, maybe infinite possibilities open up to it. But as for us? No, definitley not, we are ruled by cause and effect, for sure.
Well, if that is what you believe deep in the white of your DNA, then that's exactly the reality you'll experience,
a valid reality but only one of an infinite number of other possibilities.

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For the soul yes, not for us. If you disagree, then please give me an example.
Well, i could easily ask you to show me a 'soul'. Provide me with physical evidence of the existence
of individual souls.

Last edited by seanx; 22-09-2012 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:22 PM   #251
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What if there was a rape, and she did not intend to date or even meet a man randomly or otherwise at the time, and she was visiting a group of friends?

The only way that I can see this is pre ordained, is through her past deeds.

However for this, one invarably has to accept the concept of karma.
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:26 PM   #252
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somebody told me about the tor browser, and the existance of the silk road. it was my free choice to access this service or not.
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:28 PM   #253
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What if there was a rape, and she did not intend to date or even meet a man randomly or otherwise at the time, and she was visiting a group of friends?

The only way that I can see this is pre ordained, is through her past deeds.

However for this, one invarably has to accept the concept of karma.
You assume it cares about such things. I am more of the mind that he generally randomly dishes out the good and the bad.
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:36 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
So one reality no longer exists?

What happens to me in that reality? Does that clone of me no longer exist?

Because somebody focused intently on removing a cancer, one of my infinite realities was extinguished?

Hope it wasn't the one with the soul in.

There is only one reality, at first there were infinite possibilities but once started only one was ever possible.
What is this nonsense about the real soul ?

As for more than one reality, even Stephen Hawking and Steve Weinberg now both believe that there are infinite number of realities co-exisitng together.

And of course if God is infinite, then of course that must be
the cause.

otherwise God would not be infinite

Last edited by seanx; 22-09-2012 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:37 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
Is the light beginning to shine.

Yes, your reality is just as valid - just boring, defeatist and meaningless. But it is still your version of reality that you are living out.
I think you know the point I was making.

I don't believe in infinite realities, I was just ponting out the logical fail of your argument. In your version of reality it is impossible for my version to be nonsense.

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What a fucking cheek of me to quote Icke on his own forum!!! How terrible!
All I am saying is you are living somebody elses reality without actually experiencing it, you are exactly the same as the religious "fundies" as you call them. You have absolutley no evidence or experience of your philosophy but defend it like it is a gospel.

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The soul???
What is this 'soul' you talk about?
It is the reason we are here, so it can experience reality and evolve.

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As for which is the real you you tell me?
I am the real me, I am the only me. There is only one reality and I am in it. I am not in infinite realities which have been created by infinite people. As a thought experiment it fails at nearly every hurdle.

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Let's imagine this wild thought experiment?

let's say you got married last week and being a popular lad, you invited
over a billion of your friends to the wedding and all they created DVD of
your wedding.

Now you have a billions DVD'S or versions of you getting married. In these DVD'S which
one of you is the real one?
Still me, obviously. The DVD is a DVD not a reality.

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No, you are making the assumption that consciousness actualizes all the potential realities.

That may not be the case, they may just exist as potential realities that are only actualized if
consciousness decides to embody or experience that reality.

Otherwise, yes I can see your point here, it would be pointless.
I am actually assuming that consciousness actualizes no realities, at least our consciousness, My assumption is that there is one and only reality. I agree that before it started, then yes there where infinite possibilities but once started there could only ever be one reality and this is it, right now.

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Well, if that is what you believe deep in the white of your DNA, then that's exactly the reality you'll experience,
a valid reality but only one of an infinite number of other possibilities.
Like I said, cause and effect and the lack of free will seems to logically answer a lot of problems and puts a lot of the jigsaw pieces together.

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Well, i could easily ask you to show me a 'soul'. Provide me with physical evidence of the existence
of individual souls.
They say the soul weighs 21 gramms as this is how much the body lightens on death.
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:41 PM   #256
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What if there was a rape, and she did not intend to date or even meet a man randomly or otherwise at the time, and she was visiting a group of friends?

The only way that I can see this is pre ordained, is through her past deeds.

However for this, one invarably has to accept the concept of karma.
The rape could only ever have happened that way.

Cause and effect explains the situation perfectly.

From the moment she was born, she was always going to be raped exactly how she was and it was nothing to do with Karma, it was purely cause and effect.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

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Old 22-09-2012, 05:41 PM   #257
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somebody told me about the tor browser, and the existance of the silk road. it was my free choice to access this service or not.
Not, your choice wasn't free.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


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Old 22-09-2012, 05:45 PM   #258
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Not, your choice wasn't free.
Do you think my choice to be awake and be a truth worker was not free either?, as my aunt at 18, said "i have somthing to tell you when you are older" when I was 21 I learned about DI and his work. Years later, through these ideas I started listening to the infowars talk show.
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:47 PM   #259
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What is this nonsense about the real soul ?
Again, how can you call anything nonsense?

With your philosophy, pink unicorns that taste of prawn cocktail crisps are certain to exist.

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As for more than one reality, even Stephen Hawking and Steve Weinberg now both believe that there are infinite number of realities co-exisitng together.
And I am sure there are scientists who believe there is only one, what is your point?
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:48 PM   #260
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Do you think my choice to be awake and be a truth worker was not free either?, as my aunt at 18, said "i have somthing to tell you when you are older" when I was 21 I learned about DI and his work. Years later, through these ideas I started listening to the infowars talk show.
I think none of your choices are free, I don't believe in free will
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