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Old 20-09-2012, 12:00 PM   #221
neilbe
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I have come to the conclusion that ultimately nobody is responsible for their actions, at first this may sound ludicrous but hear me out.

IMO everything in this dimension is subject to the Law of cause and effect, absolutely everything, including our thoughts.

This being the case, whatever is happening right now and whatever will happen in the future could only ever happen that way; It also means that there is no free will and that every choice that you make is dictated by the sum total of your previous experience and the situation that you find yourself in when making the choice.

This means that ultimately people are not responsible for their actions and what they do is beyond their control and in total control of the Law of cause and effect, Or "God’s Will."
Your right, is does sound ludicrous. Humans are subject to cause and effect but in no way does this mean that we have no free will and it certainly does not mean that we are not responsible for our actions.

I decided to respond to th op, I decided to respond in a certain way, using certain words. I decided to do this now and not later. This is free will right here. And if I don't take responsibility for my actions then who?

It's very easy to shift blame and responsibiblity for our actions. That is why the world is in s
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Old 20-09-2012, 12:14 PM   #222
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Your right, is does sound ludicrous. Humans are subject to cause and effect but in no way does this mean that we have no free will and it certainly does not mean that we are not responsible for our actions.
Yes it does sound ludicrous eh? Totally ludicrous.

BUT.

How can you say we are subject to cause and effect and still have free will? The two are incompatible. If you are caused to do something you are not doing it freely.

Try and come up with something or thought that isn't caused.

Quote:
I decided to respond to th op, I decided to respond in a certain way, using certain words. I decided to do this now and not later. This is free will right here. And if I don't take responsibility for my actions then who?
Why did you decide to repsond to the OP, why did you decide to respond in a certain way? using certain words? Why now not later?

After giving it some thought, you will realise that there was a cause to each of those questions and if you give it enough thought you will realise that each cause goes to the Big bang/ spark of creation/ let there be light.

You can take responsibilty for your actions, of course, but you are not ultimately respoonsible, what/who ever created this reality is ultimately responsible.

Quote:
It's very easy to shift blame and responsibiblity for our actions. That is why the world is in s
The world in in such a state because it carries with it guilt, judgment sin. All this is caused by the belief that everything that happens is our fault and again, how can it be if we have no free will?
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Old 20-09-2012, 01:37 PM   #223
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[quote=sandwarrior;1061049755]
Quote:

Yes it does sound ludicrous eh? Totally ludicrous.

BUT.

How can you say we are subject to cause and effect and still have free will? The two are incompatible. If you are caused to do something you are not doing it freely.

Try and come up with something or thought that isn't caused.



Why did you decide to repsond to the OP, why did you decide to respond in a certain way? using certain words? Why now not later?

After giving it some thought, you will realise that there was a cause to each of those questions and if you give it enough thought you will realise that each cause goes to the Big bang/ spark of creation/ let there be light.

You can take responsibilty for your actions, of course, but you are not ultimately respoonsible, what/who ever created this reality is ultimately responsible.



The world in in such a state because it carries with it guilt, judgment sin. All this is caused by the belief that everything that happens is our fault and again, how can it be if we have no free will?
If I drink poison and die that is cause and effect, right?

I can choose to drink poison or not, that is free will. If you cannot see the difference then I cannot put it any simpler than that.

The world is in such a state not because of guilt and judgment sin. The world in in a mess because of people who act apon selfish and hateful actions. These actions are the very things which are causing pain and suffering.

Btw, we create the world with our actions so it is down to us to take responsibility. For our own actions!

I have a question for you. If I get mugged on the street, who is to blame?
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Old 20-09-2012, 01:57 PM   #224
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If I drink poison and die that is cause and effect, right?

I can choose to drink poison or not, that is free will. If you cannot see the difference then I cannot put it any simpler than that.
Trust me I can see what you are saying, it's just that I totally disagree with you. Yes you can choose to drink the poson or not but that choice will be dictated by the fact that you know it is poison, hence your choice isn't free.

Free will doesn't exist.

Have you come up with a situation or thought that isn't caused yet?

Quote:
The world is in such a state not because of guilt and judgment sin. The world in in a mess because of people who act apon selfish and hateful actions. These actions are the very things which are causing pain and suffering.
Why do the people act that way? They are caused to by the experience and environment, if you had had exactly the same experience and situation as Hitler you would have acted in xactly the same way.

Quote:
I have a question for you. If I get mugged on the street, who is to blame?
The Mugger is obviously culpable in our society and we have to have methods in place to protect society from the inevitable actions of the people who commit what we call crimes, but he is not responsible for his actions, just like the Hitler mind experiment, if you had had exactly the same experience and environment as the mugger, you would have done exactly the same thing as the mugger. You were always going to get mugged in exactly the same way that you did from the begining of time, it couldn't have been any other way, he was always going to Mug you.

Extrapolate this to any example that you can think of.

Since the dawn of time it could only happen one way.
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Old 20-09-2012, 02:21 PM   #225
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[quote=sandwarrior;1061049858]
Quote:

Trust me I can see what you are saying, it's just that I totally disagree with you. Yes you can choose to drink the poson or not but that choice will be dictated by the fact that you know it is poison, hence your choice isn't free.

Free will doesn't exist.

Have you come up with a situation or thought that isn't caused yet?



Why do the people act that way? They are caused to by the experience and environment, if you had had exactly the same experience and situation as Hitler you would have acted in xactly the same way.



The Mugger is obviously culpable in our society and we have to have methods in place to protect society from the inevitable actions of the people who commit what we call crimes, but he is not responsible for his actions, just like the Hitler mind experiment, if you had had exactly the same experience and environment as the mugger, you would have done exactly the same thing as the mugger. You were always going to get mugged in exactly the same way that you did from the begining of time, it couldn't have been any other way, he was always going to Mug you.

Extrapolate this to any example that you can think of.

Since the dawn of time it could only happen one way.
And what if I didn't know it was poison? If I thought is was fruit juice or something.

Just because something is caused, doesnt mean we don't have free will, a choice. This mugger we keep hearing about, comes up to me in the street. Pulls a knife. I can stand or run or give him my wallet, or I could even try to talk to him. The cause of me fighting, running etc is the mugger and his knife, right? But I still have that choice.

It's hard to say wether during meditation I have had a totally ramdon though, not caused by anything else. Even if I haven't, it doesn't negate personal responsibility for our own actions.

And yes, we do have free will! Saying we don't doesn't make it so.
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Old 20-09-2012, 02:34 PM   #226
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And what if I didn't know it was poison? If I thought is was fruit juice or something.
Then you would be seriously ill or die, depending on the posion.

Quote:
Just because something is caused, doesnt mean we don't have free will, a choice. This mugger we keep hearing about, comes up to me in the street. Pulls a knife. I can stand or run or give him my wallet, or I could even try to talk to him. The cause of me fighting, running etc is the mugger and his knife, right? But I still have that choice.
Yes it does, it means precisely that. Free will implies a choice is free and it never is.
Quote:
It's hard to say wether during meditation I have had a totally ramdon though, not caused by anything else. Even if I haven't, it doesn't negate personal responsibility for our own actions.

And yes, we do have free will! Saying we don't doesn't make it so.

Have you read the thread?

If not and you have a spare few minutes have a read, if you are interested.
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Old 20-09-2012, 02:58 PM   #227
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[QUOTE=sandwarrior;1061049908][quote]

Then you would be seriously ill or die, depending on the posion.



Yes it does, it means precisely that. Free will implies a choice is free and it never is.



Have you read the thread?

If not and you have a spare few minutes have a read, if you are interested.[/

My choices may be limited with this mugger, but I still have several different choices to choose from. I could in therory just carry on like nothing has happened, it may not be the smartest thing to do, who knows!

To say a choice is never free is wrong. Right now I could watch tv, listen to music, stay on the dif. I could go and eat or make a cup of tea, and so on. Without the threat of violence I am free to do whatever I like.

And no I havent read the whole thread. I read the bit about not being responsible for our actions and that is what I originally disagreed with.
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Old 20-09-2012, 03:26 PM   #228
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[quote][quote=neilbe;1061049941
My choices may be limited with this mugger, but I still have several different choices to choose from. I could in therory just carry on like nothing has happened, it may not be the smartest thing to do, who knows!

To say a choice is never free is wrong. Right now I could watch tv, listen to music, stay on the dif. I could go and eat or make a cup of tea, and so on. Without the threat of violence I am free to do whatever I like.

And no I havent read the whole thread. I read the bit about not being responsible for our actions and that is what I originally disagreed with.[/quote]



You will only ever choose one option.

I realise that the idea is a little hard to get your head around.

If you read the thread then maybe you will understand a little more.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

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Old 21-09-2012, 01:02 AM   #229
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Your right, is does sound ludicrous. Humans are subject to cause and effect but in no way does this mean that we have no free will and it certainly does not mean that we are not responsible for our actions.

I decided to respond to th op, I decided to respond in a certain way, using certain words. I decided to do this now and not later. This is free will right here. And if I don't take responsibility for my actions then who?

It's very easy to shift blame and responsibiblity for our actions. That is why the world is in s
..............................

Last edited by seanx; 21-09-2012 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 21-09-2012, 01:03 AM   #230
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I have come to the conclusion that ultimately nobody is responsible for their actions, at first this may sound ludicrous but hear me out.

IMO everything in this dimension is subject to the Law of cause and effect, absolutely everything, including our thoughts.

This being the case, whatever is happening right now and whatever will happen in the future could only ever happen that way; It also means that there is no free will and that every choice that you make is dictated by the sum total of your previous experience and the situation that you find yourself in when making the choice.

This means that ultimately people are not responsible for their actions and what they do is beyond their control and in total control of the Law of cause and effect, Or "God’s Will."
What utter nonsense!

Tell me have you ever read what a certain Mr. icke says about the
so-called law of cause and effect?

IF all time is NOW ...........where does that put your law of cause
and effect?
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Old 21-09-2012, 01:22 AM   #231
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I am really buying sand warrior's argument well it is something I intend to look into later when I have more knowledge. I might sound like a noob saying this but isn't time really man's measurement. Cause and effect would be a giant sequence of events it may care not for time.
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Old 21-09-2012, 01:45 AM   #232
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I am really buying sand warrior's argument well it is something I intend to look into later when I have more knowledge. I might sound like a noob saying this but isn't time really man's measurement. Cause and effect would be a giant sequence of events it may care not for time.
No mate, it is totally bullshit!

it's like a director of a film thinking he is powerless to create whatever
film he wants.

Whatever the imagination of the director can imagine, he can create.

He has absolute freedom. The only limit is his imagination.

It is all still an illusion ( although when we are watching the film we
all allow ourselves to forget this in order to enjoy the film).

Likewise this world is a great and fantastic 'illusion' for consciousness
( you and me) to play in and experience where it can choose from
infinite realities at any moment to experience.

For a great explanation of this, read Icke's geat book, 'Tales of the time loop'

Last edited by seanx; 21-09-2012 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 21-09-2012, 08:44 AM   #233
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What utter nonsense!

Tell me have you ever read what a certain Mr. icke says about the
so-called law of cause and effect?

IF all time is NOW ...........where does that put your law of cause
and effect?
Welcome back seanx,

Good to see your posting style hasn't changed

To answer your question about time and cause and effect:

As usual it's all about perspective, yes time is indeed all now but from the souls perspective and not ours, from our perspective it is linear. Cause and effect is the mechanism whereby the soul can choose which shell it wants to incarnate into to gain it's experience.

Think of the sum 2+x=y

It is impossible to solve due to only knowing the cause, once we know the effect 2+2=y then the sum is known forever. This is the exact same situation as us and the soul, we don't know the causes and effects as they are infinite but the soul can see them all, so the perspective of time is meaningless, the soul can see the future exactly as it is going to happen.

You can extrapolate the simple sum the infinite variables of cause and effect, the soul knows them all and all time is now.

Cause and effect solves more puzzles than it causes, in fact I haven't found a puzzle with it as yet.

Nonsense?
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Old 21-09-2012, 08:47 AM   #234
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I am really buying sand warrior's argument well it is something I intend to look into later when I have more knowledge. I might sound like a noob saying this but isn't time really man's measurement. Cause and effect would be a giant sequence of events it may care not for time.
Not a "noob" at all, this is exactly it.

If you knew all of the variables, predicting the future would be easy, time is an irrelevence.

Cause and effect is an infinite chain which is what makes God all knowing and what makes the soul be able to choose it's evolution.

It is also what cause our glimpses into this reality through premonition, precognition, de ja vu etc, cause and effect explains all of this phenomenom.
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Old 21-09-2012, 08:51 AM   #235
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No mate, it is totally bullshit!

it's like a director of a film thinking he is powerless to create whatever
film he wants.

Whatever the imagination of the director can imagine, he can create.

He has absolute freedom. The only limit is his imagination.
Yes, but we are not the creator, we are the creation. We are not the director we are the actors in the film.


Quote:
Likewise this world is a great and fantastic 'illusion' for consciousness
( you and me) to play in and experience where it can choose from
infinite realities at any moment to experience.
There is only one reality and we are in it.

I have explained the problems with the infinte realites theory before but one of the main problems is this:

In the infinte realites that you are creating, where am I? Is their a clone of me in all of yours and everyone elses realities? Which one is the real me? Which one is the soul incarnated into?
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Old 21-09-2012, 10:41 PM   #236
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Welcome back seanx,

Good to see your posting style hasn't changed

To answer your question about time and cause and effect:

As usual it's all about perspective, yes time is indeed all now but from the souls perspective and not ours, from our perspective it is linear. Cause and effect is the mechanism whereby the soul can choose which shell it wants to incarnate into to gain it's experience.

Think of the sum 2+x=y

It is impossible to solve due to only knowing the cause, once we know the effect 2+2=y then the sum is known forever. This is the exact same situation as us and the soul, we don't know the causes and effects as they are infinite but the soul can see them all, so the perspective of time is meaningless, the soul can see the future exactly as it is going to happen.

You can extrapolate the simple sum the infinite variables of cause and effect, the soul knows them all and all time is now.

Cause and effect solves more puzzles than it causes, in fact I haven't found a puzzle with it as yet.

Nonsense?
Total nonsense.

Your idea is just another variation of the old religious matrix idea that we
are all totally powerless and at the mercy of fate or God.

The old idea that: 'I'm poor because it is God's Will. Or 'everything
happens because it is God's Will' etc.

Your view of life is simply the same.

It's a cop-out.

It lets you off the hook -of all responsibility. As in ..........it's not my fault.
It was just meant to be.

Your problem lies in your belief that the law of cause and effect is
absolute.

it's not.

it is only one way of experiencing life.

From a wider perspective, it is an illusion.

if all time is now and life is infinite - then all reality and infinite variations
of that reality exist NOW.

So we are not in fact 'creating our reality' but our consciousness is
shifting into different realities all the time.

The law of cause and effect is only absolute for us because we believe
it is an imutable law of existence so our consciousness keeps
selecting realities that conform to that belief.


Quote:
This is the exact same situation as us and the soul, we don't know the causes and effects as they are infinite but the soul can see them all, so the perspective of time is meaningless, the soul can see the future exactly as it is going to happen
No, the soul sees that at any moment in time, infinite variations of every
event exist so the future is not fixed but infinitely fluid.

At any moment, if the 'soul' is conscious, it can select whatever reality
it wants to experience from an infinite range of possibilites.

As Icke says once we can release ourselves from the hold of the law of cause
and effect, infinite possibilities open up to us.

Reality can then be changed in an instant !

You simply shift from one reality to another.

Not easy for humanity at this time - because this belief in the absolute
validity of the law of cause and effect has been literally BURNED and IMPRINTED
into our cells over centuries.

99% of us believe in it without the slightest question.

And most of us JUST cannot envision a reality where it does not exist.

Last edited by seanx; 21-09-2012 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 22-09-2012, 11:57 AM   #237
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Seanx,

I agree with much of what you are saying re that our actions are not governed by 'God's will' and that we do have our own 'free will' and can exercise it. However, we can only do that in a relative sense here on earth.

The law of cause and effect is also an aspect of relativity - in the finite universe everything is relative and duality prevails and everything that manifests in concrete form is thus subject to duality, and limitation. It is also subject to the law of cause and effect - if we pretend otherwise we end up with a some sort of thesis based on absolute chance.

All change of position, substance, or form is the result of some form of causality; there is no such thing as absolute chance. Nothing can happen for no reason at all for nothing exists in isolation; everything is part of an intricate web of causal interconnections and interactions.

Causal laws do not preclude the responsibility for our actions neither do they preclude our free will which is consistent with cause and effect. If free will cannot be a fortuitous phenomenon it must therefore be a causal phenomenon as it involves selfconscious self-determinism.

How is it possible for an abstraction referred to as God that is supposed to be infinite and separate from us to also have concrete attributes such as will, and be capable of an act or acts of willing anything and also of acting in accordance with such a will in relation to finities?

If such a deity is responsible for everything that happens in the universe because it is his own direct doing; and the supposition, absurd as it is, likewise forbids the existence of free will and self-initiative in any minutest degree in any entity. This is not to say that the archetype or prototype of the Will does not exist within the infinitude of the Boundless All, but THAT is not a personal God as Sandwarrior seems to suggest but Will in that sense is not a concrete will of any particular concrete human being.


Only finite beings have wills that can actually be exercised or acted upon if they have been developed in the course of spiritual evolution.
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Old 22-09-2012, 12:31 PM   #238
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Yes we are responsible for our actions, even though cause and effect comes into play.

Every human being has been given free-will. If you deny that then i guess its because its a relatively new thing. Free-will. but it does exist.

The responsibility comes down to how you react and handle one main factor: Stress.

God gives all humans choice and freedoms.

Some say this was because of Enki disobeying his elders and he believed humans should have magic and knowledge instead of obedience.

For instance, stress causes me to smoke, the nasty smoke will not serve my body well and might make me ill in the future. I have a choice not to smoke. but at the moment my choice is to smoke. We have free-will,
but we are not gods nor immortal. we are on Earth, in a process of life and approaching death. What is this really? we still dont know. but to say that we are merely just acting out a programmed pantomime is quite defeating.


True story.

Last edited by sloloris; 22-09-2012 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 22-09-2012, 12:39 PM   #239
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Seanx,

I agree with much of what you are saying re that our actions are not governed by 'God's will' and that we do have our own 'free will' and can exercise it. However, we can only do that in a relative sense here on earth.

The law of cause and effect is also an aspect of relativity - in the finite universe everything is relative and duality prevails and everything that manifests in concrete form is thus subject to duality, and limitation. It is also subject to the law of cause and effect - if we pretend otherwise we end up with a some sort of thesis based on absolute chance.

All change of position, substance, or form is the result of some form of causality; there is no such thing as absolute chance. Nothing can happen for no reason at all for nothing exists in isolation; everything is part of an intricate web of causal interconnections and interactions.
let's say a person has a cancer tumour?

Do you think it is possible ( although I accept for the majority of us because of our belief systems
not a likely probability)........but do you believe it is possible for a person to instantly shift their reality
to a reality where the tumour no longer exists?

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Old 22-09-2012, 12:41 PM   #240
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Total nonsense.

Your idea is just another variation of the old religious matrix idea that we
are all totally powerless and at the mercy of fate or God.

The old idea that: 'I'm poor because it is God's Will. Or 'everything
happens because it is God's Will' etc.

Your view of life is simply the same.

It's a cop-out.

It lets you off the hook -of all responsibility. As in ..........it's not my fault.
It was just meant to be.
I think you have the wrong idea of the religious matrix, all religions say that we have free will and it is our choice whether we commit good or evil. It seems that you want your cake and to eat it.


Quote:
Your problem lies in your belief that the law of cause and effect is
absolute.

it's not.
On this dimension it is totally absolute, if you think it isn't then please give me an example of something or thought that isn't caused.

Quote:
it is only one way of experiencing life.

From a wider perspective, it is an illusion.

if all time is now and life is infinite - then all reality and infinite variations
of that reality exist NOW
.
Can you not see that this philosophy permits absolutely everything, every single variation, as you put it. So when you call my variation of reality nonsense you are totally contradicting yourself, as if there are infinite possibilities then my version of reality is one of them hence not nonsense.

The problem you have is that your philosophy isn't your philosophy, it is David Ickes, so you don't fully understand it as you have gotten it out of books, you haven't lived it and experienced it, it is Davids reality, as the one I decribe is mine.

You are not following your own path and you really should.


Quote:
So we are not in fact 'creating our reality' but our consciousness is
shifting into different realities all the time.
You did'n't answer my question about "where am I in these different realities? how many copies of me are there? Which one is the soul incarnated into? etc

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The law of cause and effect is only absolute for us because we believe
it is an imutable law of existence so our consciousness keeps
selecting realities that conform to that belief
.

No, it is an immutable law, at least on this dimension and because we are all on this dimension right now, the law is immutable, when the soul evolves enough so it doesn't have to incarnate then the shackles will be broken, (maybe)

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No, the soul sees that at any moment in time, infinite variations of every
event exist so the future is not fixed but infinitely fluid.
No it doesn't, it sees the future, past and present exactly as it should be due to the law of cause and effect, hence it knows which experience it nis going to get when it incarnates, if it could just incarnate into any infinite variation it choosed, what would be the point? It would be totally pointless.

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At any moment, if the 'soul' is conscious, it can select whatever reality
it wants to experience from an infinite range of possibilites.
I agree witht he first bit and totally disagree with the second, it evolves through experiencing the only reality possible, that is why certain experiences are prized above others.

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As Icke says once we can release ourselves from the hold of the law of cause
and effect, infinite possibilities open up to us.
We cant release oursleves from cause and effect, our bodies are nothing, ashes to ashes dust to dust. BUT the soul, once released from this mortal coil, once it has evolved so it doesn't have to incarnate any more, then yes, maybe infinite possibilities open up to it. But as for us? No, definitley not, we are ruled by cause and effect, for sure.

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Reality can then be changed in an instant !
For the soul yes, not for us. If you disagree, then please give me an example.

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You simply shift from one reality to another.
See above.

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Not easy for humanity at this time - because this belief in the absolute
validity of the law of cause and effect has been literally BURNED and IMPRINTED
into our cells over centuries.
No it hasn'tm FREE WILL has been burned into our Phyche for centuries, the belief that we are guilty and sinners and it is all our fault because we have free will.

That is the massive illusion and brain washing.

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99% of us believe in it without the slightest question.
NO, 99% believe we have free will. Go and check for yourself, it's the elephant in the room and it is masive.

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And most of us JUST cannot envision a reality where it does not exist.

Free will? I absolutely agree.
__________________
Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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