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Old 26-12-2011, 11:18 AM   #241
ar20
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Originally Posted by codie View Post
Go into a field and bite a cow
Go into a field and eat a raw grain.

Come back to us on that one.

Maybe go eat some raw broccoli?



Smuggery. Understand that even vegetarian and vegan diets are still responsible for some level of death. Stop upsetting the natural life cycles of the planet.

Meat is a high-density nutrient packed food. We survived for thousands of years on it. Just because your society offers you rice cakes, pastas and year round out-of-season fruits and veg doesn't mean you should shun your ancestors eating patterns.

Meat can also be eaten raw. Sushi, tartare...

I can't stomach grains well. I can't just eat fruits and veg, I don't live in an appropriate climate. Meat is filling and believe it or not, actually good for you.

Vegan/Vegetarian diets almost seem New World Ordery to me. I don't see any superhuman vegans out there besides a few bodybuilders and they don't look all that impressive.

I was a vegetarian once. Big mistake. You have those meat cravings for a reason, because you're not getting essential nutrients. It's not optimal that you have to combine certain foods just to make sure you're getting the spectrum.

I think the obesity crisis could be linked to increased dairy consumption (a mix of meat and milk). I don't think we should be drinking or eating the processed mothers milk of another animal to be honest. I don't get how that even works. Surely we cannot digest that properly? That must wreck havoc on your system when you consider it's only meant for the young.

Instead of giving up meat. Keep eating it and give up dairy. There's an experiment.

I still like butter though.

Meats real bad for you: http://arthurdevany.com/

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Old 26-12-2011, 11:32 AM   #242
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You want proof? Go to US and look at the people there. They eat lots of animal protein and weight 200 KGs
yes, they also eat loads of plant based foods too - on what scientific basis can you blame the animal protein for the obesity rather than the copious amounts of starches and sugars consumed? The fact that they eat a lot of meat is hardly "proof"

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Anyway, I have to agree with what I type because based on my own experience, I feel great on vegetable protein, meat makes me sluggish and heavy, I am more alert on plant based diet and my bowel movements are amazing compared to when I am on meat and processed junk.
Thats perfectly fine, as I previously stated I have no doubt that thanks to modern technology/distribution/commerce you can indeed have a healthy plant based diet. But this thread is about what we were designed to eat naturally, rather than what we can eat nowadays.

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It's your health, try both, lots of meat, or lots of raw or lightly cooked plant based foods. See how you feel after 3-4 weeks on both.
Personally if I eat anything too sugary/starchy I feel sluggish and tired, but each to their own. Nothing wrong with a nice green smoothie or a nice crunchy salad, but its hardly natural, especially at this time of year.

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Old 26-12-2011, 02:52 PM   #243
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yes, they also eat loads of plant based foods too - on what scientific basis can you blame the animal protein for the obesity rather than the copious amounts of starches and sugars consumed? The fact that they eat a lot of meat is hardly "proof"

Thats perfectly fine, as I previously stated I have no doubt that thanks to modern technology/distribution/commerce you can indeed have a healthy plant based diet. But this thread is about what we were designed to eat naturally, rather than what we can eat nowadays.

Personally if I eat anything too sugary/starchy I feel sluggish and tired, but each to their own. Nothing wrong with a nice green smoothie or a nice crunchy salad, but its hardly natural, especially at this time of year.
For the mere fact that animal protein promotes cancer cells and plant protein doesn't, you gotta ask yourself, is meat really for everyone or should it be consumed quiet rarely.

If you are a body builder, I can understand why you'd need more animal protein but most people on this site have never lifted a dumbbell.

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Old 26-12-2011, 02:52 PM   #244
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Maybe go eat some raw broccoli?

Have done dozens of times and love it. So what's your point?

The longest lived people in the world are from Okinawa, the traditional Okinawa diet consisted of mostly sweet potatoes/rice and vegetables, with tofu and legumes. And on rare occasions fish and pork. Their everyday diet was almost exclusively plant based. They also practice 'hara hachi bu' (eat until 80% full).

Their diet was basically 80-10-10, 80% carbs, 10% protein, 10% fat.

These people in this thread saying humans do well when we cut out carbs are absolutely deluded. The human body runs on carbs, the brain runs on carbs.
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Old 26-12-2011, 03:25 PM   #245
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Have done dozens of times and love it. So what's your point?

The longest lived people in the world are from Okinawa, the traditional Okinawa diet consisted of mostly sweet potatoes/rice and vegetables, with tofu and legumes. And on rare occasions fish and pork. Their everyday diet was almost exclusively plant based. They also practice 'hara hachi bu' (eat until 80% full).

Their diet was basically 80-10-10, 80% carbs, 10% protein, 10% fat.

These people in this thread saying humans do well when we cut out carbs are absolutely deluded. The human body runs on carbs, the brain runs on carbs.
Good points.
The Japanese also are the world's biggest smokers, yet their lung cancer rates are very low (low animal protein diet).
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Old 26-12-2011, 03:43 PM   #246
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For the mere fact that animal protein promotes cancer cells and plant protein doesn't,
any links or references? Never heard anyone state that before
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Old 26-12-2011, 03:45 PM   #247
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These people in this thread saying humans do well when we cut out carbs are absolutely deluded. The human body runs on carbs, the brain runs on carbs.
what about those people that don't eat any carbs - what do their bodies and brains run on I wonder, or are they just deluding themselves?

The Innuits and Maasai are just two very well known examples of people that eat a essentially 100% animal diet - but very little cancer, heart disease, diabetes or obesity to be found. They are in fact robustly healthy with extremely low incidence of disease.

I wonder how their brains and bodies manage to work for entire lifetimes without carbs at all? How come they dont get cancer if animal protein promotes cancer cells as some have suggested?

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Old 26-12-2011, 03:51 PM   #248
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The human body runs on carbs, the brain runs on carbs.
More vegan propaganda and misinformation. You don't tell the full story as you're biased and you're misleading people.

The combination of sugar and cholesterol made our brains bigger and thus we became smarter. Carbs are the main source of energy for the brain BUT cholesterol is most essential to the brain for construction purposes.

Fruits contain easy-to-digest sugars, raw animal food contains 'clean' cholesterol, and they both contain the required fat and protein. Together these foods contain all nutrients you need, and are ideal to increase brain capacity.

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Old 26-12-2011, 05:36 PM   #249
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As a meat eater none of my meals for my family or me are based only on meat, my diet is not all meat, nor do I wish it to be, I try to balance the intake of what we eat, and for the most part no junk food for the kids.

Why are people over weight in the USA, that's simple, alot of people are lazy and eat way to much food and of the food they eat most of it is junk food, not because of meat. How people stuff themselves at supper, then park there butt on the sofa and watch TV or play video games and munch on cookies, chips, ice cream, candy or countless other treats. Oh and not forget the countless number of sugared drinks.

Also who really gives a fuck about body builders is it natural to be that big ? No its not, and they are more picky about what they eat and drink then most vegans are, and 24 hours or more before any show they dehydrate there body of all water/liquids. That's not normal and outside there fantasy world they could not survive.

Society today is what lets vegans be vegans, you go to the store and get you veggies, fruits, and nuts all year long you do not go out and grow them or forage for them, you are nothing more the a slave to society and how lazy mankind has become.

I don't care about Cancer, Japanese people that live to 100, or why some people are fat, or if vegans are more healthy then meat eaters. What I want to know is how someone with a vegan life style can survive in a world that's gone to shit. I have yet to see any vegan/veggie address this issue or even how early man could have done such things.

Oh then you have the whole mass marketing of Organic Food, it cost 2 or 3 times more then normal food, and do you really know if there is a difference, most states or country's don't have any guidelines as to what counts as organic. And the whole Free Range chicken scam is just another way to get money. Do you know that if a 300 foot building that has thousands of chickens in it, all they have to do is build a 5 foot by 5 foot pen that the chickens can walk outside to be called FREE RANGE.

To me if you buy more then 50% of the food you eat each week in the stores you are a slave to society and if your pushing 80% you will be totality fucked if an event happens that food is no longer available in stores.

I have yet to see one vegan/veggie answer what they would do if they needed to find there own food for them and there family. Yes they come up with all kind of stats about how bad meat is but where are you going to get all your food from when the stores don't have any ?



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Old 26-12-2011, 05:59 PM   #250
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As a meat eater none of my meals for my family or me are based only on meat, my diet is not all meat, nor do I wish it to be, I try to balance the intake of what we eat, and for the most part no junk food for the kids.

Why are people over weight in the USA, that's simple, alot of people are lazy and eat way to much food and of the food they eat most of it is junk food, not because of meat. How people stuff themselves at supper, then park there butt on the sofa and watch TV or play video games and munch on cookies, chips, ice cream, candy or countless other treats. Oh and not forget the countless number of sugared drinks.

Also who really gives a fuck about body builders is it natural to be that big ? No its not, and they are more picky about what they eat and drink then most vegans are, and 24 hours or more before any show they dehydrate there body of all water/liquids. That's not normal and outside there fantasy world they could not survive.

Society today is what lets vegans be vegans, you go to the store and get you veggies, fruits, and nuts all year long you do not go out and grow them or forage for them, you are nothing more the a slave to society and how lazy mankind has become.

I don't care about Cancer, Japanese people that live to 100, or why some people are fat, or if vegans are more healthy then meat eaters. What I want to know is how someone with a vegan life style can survive in a world that's gone to shit. I have yet to see any vegan/veggie address this issue or even how early man could have done such things.

Oh then you have the whole mass marketing of Organic Food, it cost 2 or 3 times more then normal food, and do you really know if there is a difference, most states or country's don't have any guidelines as to what counts as organic. And the whole Free Range chicken scam is just another way to get money. Do you know that if a 300 foot building that has thousands of chickens in it, all they have to do is build a 5 foot by 5 foot pen that the chickens can walk outside to be called FREE RANGE.

To me if you buy more then 50% of the food you eat each week in the stores you are a slave to society and if your pushing 80% you will be totality fucked if an event happens that food is no longer available in stores.

I have yet to see one vegan/veggie answer what they would do if they needed to find there own food for them and there family. Yes they come up with all kind of stats about how bad meat is but where are you going to get all your food from when the stores don't have any ?
Finally the voice of reason! Great post!
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Old 26-12-2011, 06:51 PM   #251
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psylocibin - quote - Are human beings anatomically more similar to natural carnivores or to natural herbivores? Let’s find out….

Intestinal tract length. Carnivorous animals have intestinal tracts that are 3-6x their body length, while herbivores have intestinal tracts 10-12x their body length. Human beings have the same intestinal tract ratio as herbivores.

Stomach acidity. Carnivores’ stomachs are 20x more acidic than the stomachs of herbivores. Human stomach acidity matches that of herbivores.

Saliva. The saliva of carnivores is acidic. The saliva of herbivores is alkaline, which helps pre-digest plant foods. Human saliva is alkaline.

Shape of intestines. Carnivore bowels are smooth, shaped like a pipe, so meat passes through quickly — they don’t have bumps or pockets. Herbivore bowels are bumpy and pouch-like with lots of pockets, like a windy mountain road, so plant foods pass through slowly for optimal nutrient absorption. Human bowels have the same characteristics as those of herbivores.

Fiber. Carnivores don’t require fiber to help move food through their short and smooth digestive tracts. Herbivores require dietary fiber to move food through their long and bumpy digestive tracts, to prevent the bowels from becoming clogged with rotting food. Humans have the same requirement as herbivores.

Cholesterol. Cholesterol is not a problem for a carnivore’s digestive system. A carnivore such as a cat can handle a high-cholesterol diet without negative health consequences. A human cannot. Humans have zero dietary need for cholesterol because our bodies manufacture all we need. Cholesterol is only found in animal foods, never in plant foods. A plant-based diet is by definition cholesterol-free.

Claws and teeth. Carnivores have claws, sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, and no flat molars for chewing. Herbivores have no claws or sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, but they have flat molars for chewing. Humans have the same characteristics as herbivores.

But aren’t humans anatomically suited to be omnivores?

Nope. We don’t anatomically match up with omnivorous animals anymore than we do with carnivorous ones. Omnivores are more similar to carnivores than they are to herbivores. For a more detailed summary table that compares the properties of carnivores, herbivores, and omnivores side by side, see this page:
Comparative Anatomy & Taxonomy

The link above also debunks the opportunistic feeder theory, which states that because humans can eat like omnivores, that we must therefore be omnivores. And this is of course false because mere behavior doesn’t indicate suitability. There are plenty of things we can do as a species that would threaten our survival if we all considered them suitable default behavior, such as shooting each other, lobbing hand grenades, or sending spam.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-herbivores-2/

Well done. As far as I am concerned the above is the last word. Particularly with regard to teeth. A simple glance at the teeth will tell you that humans evolved as pure herbivores. Strange that scientists never mention this about humans, even though they pay so much attention to the teeth of other fossils with regard to their eating habits.

To those who think mankind ORIGINATED (key word) as a carnivore keep in mind we are talking about millions of years ago. Yes it is more difficult to live through a cold winter on a vegetarian diet but remember the GARDEN OF EDEN?

Anthropologists say homo sapien originated in Sth Africa. This may or may not be true but the climate was WARM and benign. Fruit, nuts etc could be picked off the trees and plant foods were readily available.

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Old 26-12-2011, 07:06 PM   #252
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To those who think mankind ORIGINATED (key word) as a carnivore keep in mind we are talking about millions of years ago. Yes it is more difficult to live through a cold winter on a vegetarian diet but remember the GARDEN OF EDEN?

Anthropologists say homo sapien originated in Sth Africa. This may or may not be true but the climate was WARM and benign. Fruit, nuts etc could be picked off the trees and plant foods were readily available.
So you suggesting regression? Going back to roots ... pardon trees!?







I already see it happening here!

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Old 26-12-2011, 07:23 PM   #253
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As a meat eater...
I am not angry at meat eaters, I do not judge them or abuse them or tell them they are wrong or profess that I am right. No doubt I will eat meat again if and when I feel like it.

You can search through all my past posts and while I give my advice and opinion on the eating of meat, I never ever judge anybody else on what they do.

I admit sometimes when I've had a few too many I do like a good argument with meat eaters, though that's rare and purely for my own amusement.

Though in my experience, not least on this forum, a fair section of meat eaters are full of hatred, judgement and vitriol towards those who choose not to eat meat.

So you don't care about cancer? You don't care about health? All you care about is surviving in a world that's gone to shit?

Well one thing you'll get from many non-meat eaters, is caring for health and caring for taking care of the world to PREVENT it from going to shit. You seem to have written it off already, you're ready and waiting for everything to fuck up. Well some of us do care NOW!

Okay, you admit YOU don't care about longevity and cancer, so therefore you belittle those who do?

Again, what I've said before, INTOLERANCE!

That is the main problem with the world today, INTOLERANCE!
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Old 26-12-2011, 08:13 PM   #254
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So you suggesting regression? Going back to roots ... pardon trees!?

I already see it happening here!
`Pardon trees'?

I think it would greatly benefit people's health to cut back on meat. Not to mention the suffering of the animals and the destruction of the environment resulting from high meat consumption. I do eat alot of dairy products and this satisfies me and gives me enough energy.

However at this time I am not a vegetarian, primarily because my family eats meat and I am the cook -but I eat very little meat. Many times I fix vegetarian meals and no one complains. I never cook or eat pork.

I have cared for live pigs. They are amazingly smart. Every night I would throw the pigs a bale of hay and they would all cooperate making up their `bed'. Each pig carrying mouthfuls of hay and arranging it in a pile just so and they would be grunting to each other the whole time. Then they would lay down together on their bed of fluffy hay.

I saw a friend's pig slaughtered once and it was terrible. The pig was terrified. It cried and cried. It really came to me in a very personal way how much suffering goes into those sausages and hot dogs. I swore I would never eat pork again.

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Old 26-12-2011, 09:02 PM   #255
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Humans are naturally plant-eaters according to the best evidence: our bodies
by Michael Bluejay • June 2002 • Updated December 2011.




http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html
Interesting, was the human full vegan or a meat eater in the before ...before ..before time.
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Old 26-12-2011, 09:08 PM   #256
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I have cared for live pigs. They are amazingly smart. Every night I would throw the pigs a bale of hay and they would all cooperate making up their `bed'. Each pig carrying mouthfuls of hay and arranging it in a pile just so and they would be grunting to each other the whole time. Then they would lay down together on their bed of fluffy hay.

I saw a friend's pig slaughtered once and it was terrible. The pig was terrified. It cried and cried. It really came to me in a very personal way how much suffering goes into those sausages and hot dogs. I swore I would never eat pork again.
Very moving. Pigs are a glaring example of why it's wrong to kill an animal. They are intelligent, social, and probably not much less aware of life in general as most humans. I could no more kill an animal for food than my pet dog or cat. It's remarkable how immune we've become to everyday violence.

The new age will certainly correct this defect in man's character.
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Old 26-12-2011, 09:11 PM   #257
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I could no more kill an animal for food than my pet dog or cat. It's remarkable how immune we've become to everyday violence.
Problem is if you have a dog or cat you have to feed them meat. If you are a vegan you can't have a pet like a cat or a dog, if you became one out of consideraration for animals as your own animals would mark the exception of eating other animals from your very own hand. It depends I guess on the level of morality you have.

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Old 26-12-2011, 09:24 PM   #258
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Problem is if you have a dog or cat you have to feed them meat. If you are a vegan you can't have a pet like a cat or a dog, if you became one out of consideraration for animals as your own animals would mark the exception of eating other animals from your very own hand. It depends I guess on the level of morality you have.
I have two cats and I feed them the highest quality organic food I can find. Of course I feed them meat - it's what they desire and require.

I promised my Mother I would care for her cats when she passed on, and now they are my responsibility. Being moral means doing the best one can do in any situation, not being a slave to any single principle or dictate.
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Old 27-12-2011, 12:25 AM   #259
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@allure my daughter is a veggie she may eat chicken, turkey and fish a few times a year, and have not eaten beef in years, and for the most part since high school its been organic lifestyle.

I also have a lot of friends that don't eat meat, 2 of them I would say are militant vegans, and will try and push the vegan lifestyle on anyone that will listen, I try not to listen to much, but I know we both have the same size garden and grow close to the same thing, and neither one of us can grow enough food to last a year, I really wish we could, but its a lot of work. I also hunt so that means a lot of walking and where I hunt its about 7000 feet, most people would die in the first mile, or wish they were dead. I feel healthy at 48 no I don't have 6 pack abs, maybe a 12 pack working on a case. I can still backpack 15 miles with 50+ pounds in it, tho my kids can out pace me these days, so I know age can be a factor, not meat. I just don't worry every day about cancer or what can cause it because at the end of the day stress can be a major factor to.

@drakul

I have no clue how your friend went about killing a pig, but it can and should done fast, a .22 to the back of the head would put most pigs down, but something bigger would be better. I killed my first deer when I was 16, skinned it myself and helped butcher it. I have also helped butcher pigs and steer and never seen pigs cry because we knew what we were doing. Also pigs can by very bad when they get out and become wild, look at what the feral pigs are doing in the southern US, they need to be hunted. Last week I was at a friends south of Phoenix and the rabbits have over run the place so bad the ground is covered in rabbit shit. From my pov I would be making a lot of rabbit stew, but he don't hunt or like to kill animals, but did wonder if I could help. Thing is I doubt it I saw 10 rabbits in a matter of minutes just in his backyard, figure half are females so that's 4 to 8 more rabbits every 60 days, do the math its not good.

@indolering

I feel sorry for you the most, because life of animals means more to you then feeding yourself or family, if the human race comes down to more with your mind set then mine we are doomed. You would not kill animals for food, fur for clothes, because they are cute and cuddly. I sure hope you know how to weave plants to make clothes, also have an understanding of you local ecosystem so you can go out and live off the land, not die, because if your the hope of the new age the human race is fucked. Feral pigs will trash your gardens, or fields of grain, corn or what ever other vegetables you got growing. It take 2 generations for a domestic pigs to become feral, that's just over 1 year, and a sow can give birth to 6 to 8 piglets, yea baby that's a lot of bacon.

Look I don't want to come across as an arrogant asshole, and I don't believe meat is the best thing in the world, but I do believe its good for me and it along with fruits and vegetables I am healthy. If you can do the same on just fruits or just vegetables or both that's great, but its not me.

What I find funny is that some say man kind are omnivores and others say we are herbivores, but why is it some of us have the instinct to hunt game and others have the instinct to gather food, and others have the instinct to farm, I am lucky I got all 3.


4nE
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Old 27-12-2011, 03:25 AM   #260
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Don't feel sorry for me, mate. I'm fine and at peace with my God. I don't refrain from killing animals because they are cute and cuddly - they're living creatures, not so terribly different from you or I. They're not here for you to exploit and destroy. You'll learn this lesson one day...

I'll get by during the collapse. I know how to stockpile some grains and legumes and seeds. I have the skills and the strength to survive in health without the need to consume corpses. It's people with guns who feel the need to kill which are the problem in this world....
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