Go Back   David Icke's Official Forums > Main Forums > Entertainment Industry

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 29-03-2018, 01:49 AM   #61
polyhedron
Premier Subscribers
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,178
Likes: 869 (581 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oreironstar View Post
And this Language is Math
Its a series of open ended Formulas within boxes on a repeating conveyor....put kinda simply....but it isnt as complex as it at first looks once you take time to look at the patterns and understand the shapes....and its very enlightening on so many levels if you are a musician
just sayin
Open ended formulas? a(b+c)/bc = 0. Uh, how is that music?
polyhedron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2018, 07:26 AM   #62
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by polyhedron View Post
Well, the reason a riff might sound good is because of what went before. If you take a song and try to isolate “the good bit” it suddenly becomes meaningless because its been taken out of the context of the whole song.

As for music theory, go to a music shop and ask for The AB Guide to Music Theory part1, by Eric Taylor. It’s got it all plus the “circle of fifths”.

Music is basicaly a language, and a song is basicaly a story with a beginning, middle and end. Three parts in other words. The song begins and you have what film buffs would call “the inciting incident”. So if you take Girl, by John Lennon. The first line is, “Is there anybody going to listen to my story all about the girl who came to stay?...” OK, now the listener is hooked. He’s going to tell you something you didn’t know.

The problem with many songs is that as soon as they open the first few bars you already know the story that thy’re going to tell. Writing about women or war which are the two main themes of songs is extraordinarily difficult. I mean you can write about getting a girl or loosing a girl. You’ll rarely get a song about a wife during a relationship unless it’s comedy. Political songs rarely ever hold up with 99.999999% of them being absolute tedium. Who wants to listen to Billy Bragg groan about poverty? Hawkwind managed the impossible and made social injustice songs, but they were more chants and psychedelic jazz. “Time We Left This World Today” repeated over and over to great effect.

It’s finding those truth statements and energizing up on it.
On that note, listen to what Elvis Costello says from about 1.39 to 2.10 in this video.

Likes: (1)
decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2018, 07:50 AM   #63
Oreironstar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 304
Likes: 135 (105 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by polyhedron View Post
Open ended formulas? a(b+c)/bc = 0. Uh, how is that music?
Formula as in "A general relationship between given quantities"

Are scales not sliding patterns where the Root can change to any Note you wish while the pattern remains the same within that given Mode?
Are you familiar with the construct of Triads and Arpeggios?
When you construct chords are the differences between how you form a major chord and how you form a minor of that chord (Major thirds) not math patterns?
Chord A major = (Note A + Note C# + Note E) Chord A minor = (Note A + Note C + Note E)
Whats the relationship between Major thirds and minor thirds?

I could go on but i think you get the idea?

Last edited by Oreironstar; 29-03-2018 at 08:06 AM.
Oreironstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2018, 08:10 AM   #64
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by decode reality View Post
On that note, listen to what Elvis Costello says from about 1.39 to 2.10 in this video.

I also like songs that are polemical, 'political', if they're done well - but I get what he's saying.
decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2018, 08:22 AM   #65
white light
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: B-lighty
Posts: 14,765
Likes: 3,484 (2,438 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by polyhedron View Post
The thing about a “basic” analog synth is that it can be adjusted on the fly. There is absolutely zero latency between turning a pot, pressing a button or hitting a key. Your right there feeding the current to the oscilating transistors which gives it immediacy. There’s no wading through menu’s or having to think, “now how do I do that”, you just whack the cutoff, resonance or whatever it is you want to alter and so the sound can be changed on the beat, just after / before the beat. Analog is instantaneous.

Also in recording. There’s a huge difference between hitting record on a valve reel-reel recorder, and poxying about with a tincy wincy screen of a digital recorder. With a valve tape machine you have everything in one. You can plug a guitar direct into a reel-reel and change the sound just by adjusting the input level.

But when a musician has to split his time between learning the instrument and getting a phd in computing, less time is spent on right brained spontaneous creativity and more time is spent on left brained linear, cognetive and academic thought processes. You don’t want the brain to be cluttered up with jargon and visual stimuli when working with sound.
You'll be lucky to get a valve multitrack tape recorder. At most I think valve tape recorders only ever went up to four tracks. I may be wrong though.

Maybe you mean analogue tape recorder. But I get what you are saying. I do use digital these days and have encountered all of those problems.
white light is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2018, 11:46 AM   #66
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

I miss musicians who play 'old-school' instruments. Every genre used to have its star drummers, guitarists, etc. Especially drummers, who in many ways define a group's sound more than anyone else in a band.
Likes: (2)
decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2018, 01:56 PM   #67
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

Worth posting here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by decode reality View Post
0:43 to 1:23 - Interviewer: What do you look for in a musician?

Miles' response is priceless. They don't teach this in music classes, but it makes perfect sense.

decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2018, 04:19 PM   #68
Oreironstar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 304
Likes: 135 (105 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oreironstar View Post
Formula as in "A general relationship between given quantities"

Are scales not sliding patterns where the Root can change to any Note you wish while the pattern remains the same within that given Mode?
Are you familiar with the construct of Triads and Arpeggios?
When you construct chords are the differences between how you form a major chord and how you form a minor of that chord (Major thirds) not math patterns?
Chord A major = (Note A + Note C# + Note E) Chord A minor = (Note A + Note C + Note E)
Whats the relationship between Major thirds and minor thirds?

I could go on but i think you get the idea?

And at this point after reading this, i think i should elaborate on it a little more:

The Theory behind the music we hear within certain influences/genres , imo ,seems to be a series of transferable patterns that without a doubt , can more easily be understood from a Math point of view to the untrained eye/ear
than perhaps if it was explained as "feel what you hear"
However, if you can, feel what you hear ( or better explained perhaps as "find the root and follow the pattern) before you understand Music Theory , then of course you are off to a running start
All of this is also Instrument dependendant(including Voice)

And the Math applies not just to the sound...but the timing and the Pitch/Tone

So in summary i refer back to your "Language" point and concede that perhaps its not just Math....but the Math is there

I was able to create music with eye to hand coordination following ear to brain translation for years before i really understood music Theory
This was a major breakthrough for me when i realised that Patterns exist that can be used to map out sound not only in my head....but on paper
And so it goes from there.....
Just my random musings tho..
Oreironstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2018, 01:32 AM   #69
decim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 16,137
Likes: 2,985 (1,695 Posts)
Default

Very few bands earn their licks like years ago.
The Me Me generation demand instantaneaous recognition and adoration for fuck all. Here today gone tomorrow.

__________________
DISCLAIMER: Reader discretion advised. The above post is entirely fictional, for entertainment purposes only. Any similarities to real life events, animals, humans, persons, politicians, or any other form of organisation entity living, dead or in any other state of existence are coincidental. Any opinion, comment or statements related or attributed to this username are not necessarily nor implied to be those held by the ip/computer/username or other electronic media device or service owner/user.
Likes: (1)
decim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2018, 06:16 AM   #70
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by decim View Post
Very few bands earn their licks like years ago.
The Me Me generation demand instantaneaous recognition and adoration for fuck all. Here today gone tomorrow.

Something I posted earlier, Quincy Jones describing Taylor Swift:

When pressed further, Jones implied the pop singer hasn’t put in the time to produce good music. “Since I was a little kid, I’ve always heard the people that don’t wanna do the work,” he stated. “It takes work, man. The only place you find success before work is the dictionary, and that’s alphabetical.”
Likes: (3)
decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2018, 06:54 AM   #71
the tealady
Forum Advisor
 
the tealady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Down by the sea
Posts: 18,965
Likes: 4,648 (2,475 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by decode reality View Post
I miss musicians who play 'old-school' instruments. Every genre used to have its star drummers, guitarists, etc. Especially drummers, who in many ways define a group's sound more than anyone else in a band.
Maurice White from Earth Wind and Fire popularised the use of the kalimba. He made it sound good just by itself. Not so much old-fashioned but he introduced it into their sound that added to its originality.

__________________
Unlike a lot of other people, David walks the talk. Be careful who you trust in this alternative media and research.

Please don't feed the trolls.

When I LIKE a post, it does not always mean I agree, it can also just mean I think a valid point has been made.

Last edited by the tealady; 30-03-2018 at 06:56 AM.
Likes: (1)
the tealady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2018, 08:23 AM   #72
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the tealady View Post
Maurice White from Earth Wind and Fire popularised the use of the kalimba. He made it sound good just by itself. Not so much old-fashioned but he introduced it into their sound that added to its originality.

I know what you mean. In actuality the kalimba (or mbira) is one of the oldest instruments, dating back some 3,000 years.

Just the fact that there were so many people in that band says so much a) They were in it as a collective for the music and not individual glory, b) There was enough money in the industry to pay them all, and pay them properly!
Likes: (1)
decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2018, 09:14 AM   #73
armoured_amazon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 21,303
Likes: 312 (143 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by polyhedron View Post
As for music theory, go to a music shop and ask for The AB Guide to Music Theory part1, by Eric Taylor. It’s got it all plus the “circle of fifths”.
Music bible I require all my students to get, who are serious about learning music.
Likes: (1)
armoured_amazon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2018, 09:39 AM   #74
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

There's another factor, which is simply being allowed the time and space to develop.

Marley and Bowie both began making records in their mid teens and in each case, it took just over a decade before they began making inroads. By the time the public got to see them, their creative voices were pretty much fully-formed.

Today, there's less opportunities to grow by gigging and making records that aren't expected to be instant smashes. So this is one reason why we see kids who are barely out of school or STILL at school being signed up and placed in the full glare of publicity. (Of course, we know the other darker reasons.) Notwithstanding the MJs, Princes and Kate Bush's of this world, at that age, you're still learning, still wet behind the ears about so much.

Last edited by decode reality; 30-03-2018 at 09:40 AM.
decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2018, 10:12 AM   #75
the tealady
Forum Advisor
 
the tealady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Down by the sea
Posts: 18,965
Likes: 4,648 (2,475 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by decode reality View Post
I know what you mean. In actuality the kalimba (or mbira) is one of the oldest instruments, dating back some 3,000 years.

Just the fact that there were so many people in that band says so much a) They were in it as a collective for the music and not individual glory, b) There was enough money in the industry to pay them all, and pay them properly!
I have his biography which chronicles the whole story . He was a true musical genius.
__________________
Unlike a lot of other people, David walks the talk. Be careful who you trust in this alternative media and research.

Please don't feed the trolls.

When I LIKE a post, it does not always mean I agree, it can also just mean I think a valid point has been made.
the tealady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2018, 10:37 AM   #76
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the tealady View Post
I have his biography which chronicles the whole story . He was a true musical genius.
He certainly was. I'll have to read that, I wasn't aware there was any books about him. Another example of someone who paid his dues musically, rather than being a flash in the pan 'talent show' winner.
Likes: (1)
decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2018, 12:29 AM   #77
polyhedron
Premier Subscribers
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,178
Likes: 869 (581 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armoured_amazon View Post
Music bible I require all my students to get, who are serious about learning music.
Can’t find it. When was it published?

Last edited by polyhedron; 31-03-2018 at 12:30 AM.
polyhedron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2018, 08:42 AM   #78
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

The AB book is one I've used. There used to be a smaller A6-sized one. My one reservation with books like those, is this: Which came first - the creativity or the theory?

Theory books are overwhelmingly aimed at analysing music but separate it from practical application, i.e. creating music. They also don't take into account the fact that composers don't conform to the rules when they create music. Don't even start when it comes to improvising.

Leaving out the creative aspect is one flaw; the fact that they are often slanted at a stream of music that excludes "pop" (pop in its broadest, 'non-classical music' sense) is another.

That said, aspects of many songs do partially operate in ways that corroborate what theory books say; however, I would personally suggest learning the theory only after learning songs by ear, writing your own music, and seeing the patterns at work. Learn what a major, minor, suspended etc chord SOUNDS like, and learn songs to see how they're practically applied.

If you attempted to analyse and understand the structure of MOST pop/rock songs by referring to theory texts, it will confuse the hell out of you. You will see anomalies everywhere that the books are unable to address. Musicians have always created some great work that 'breaks all the (academic) rules'. As much as it's downplayed, many of the composers whose work is now seen as 'theory' and how it should be done, were originally musicians that went beyond convention and tradition, and were castigated for it in their time.

Back to our old friend Miles Davis, who said if Hendrix had known all that stuff, it might have gotten in the way. Here's another former Miles Davis collaborator. What he says in three minutes (especially 1.40 onward) applies as much to genres of pop as it does to jazz.

Likes: (2)
decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2018, 11:45 AM   #79
Oreironstar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 304
Likes: 135 (105 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by decode reality View Post
The AB book is one I've used. There used to be a smaller A6-sized one. My one reservation with books like those, is this: Which came first - the creativity or the theory?

Theory books are overwhelmingly aimed at analysing music but separate it from practical application, i.e. creating music. They also don't take into account the fact that composers don't conform to the rules when they create music. Don't even start when it comes to improvising.

Leaving out the creative aspect is one flaw; the fact that they are often slanted at a stream of music that excludes "pop" (pop in its broadest, 'non-classical music' sense) is another.

That said, aspects of many songs do partially operate in ways that corroborate what theory books say; however, I would personally suggest learning the theory only after learning songs by ear, writing your own music, and seeing the patterns at work. Learn what a major, minor, suspended etc chord SOUNDS like, and learn songs to see how they're practically applied.

If you attempted to analyse and understand the structure of MOST pop/rock songs by referring to theory texts, it will confuse the hell out of you. You will see anomalies everywhere that the books are unable to address. Musicians have always created some great work that 'breaks all the (academic) rules'. As much as it's downplayed, many of the composers whose work is now seen as 'theory' and how it should be done, were originally musicians that went beyond convention and tradition, and were castigated for it in their time.

Back to our old friend Miles Davis, who said if Hendrix had known all that stuff, it might have gotten in the way. Here's another former Miles Davis collaborator. What he says in three minutes (especially 1.40 onward) applies as much to genres of pop as it does to jazz.

This is the stumbling point for sure and holds up alot of folks
Much the same as most studies , absorbing the "rules", so you have a point to refer to is very helpful, yet if you dont look beyond those rules for alternatives that point you back to those rules OR open up exceptions to those rules, your confining your experience to someone elses
Even musicians/folks who cannot/do not understand music theory use this pattern when they learn by ear/eye only...they just arent able to explain it clearly as they often dont realise the process themselves

The rules are there and can be used to figure out your own patterns
Oreironstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2018, 12:20 PM   #80
decode reality
Inactive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 24,061
Likes: 4,369 (2,796 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oreironstar View Post
This is the stumbling point for sure and holds up alot of folks
Much the same as most studies , absorbing the "rules", so you have a point to refer to is very helpful, yet if you dont look beyond those rules for alternatives that point you back to those rules OR open up exceptions to those rules, your confining your experience to someone elses
Even musicians/folks who cannot/do not understand music theory use this pattern when they learn by ear/eye only...they just arent able to explain it clearly as they often dont realise the process themselves

The rules are there and can be used to figure out your own patterns
Music theory courses can be handy but as they're set up to deal with a specific area of music, i.e Classical and Baroque for the most part, they're of limited use in gaining an understanding of music from different eras with its own unique approach.

Very few people if anyone uses Bach chorales as the model for harmonies, for example, unless they're doing a pastiche of Bach. Which is exactly how most music would sound, if musicians adhered to the criteria set out in text books.
decode reality is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
creativity, music, originality

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:04 PM.


Shoutbox provided by vBShout (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.