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Old 25-08-2012, 01:36 AM   #41
believenothing
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If you read the entire thread you will see that this is not my claim that there were Hebrews in Egypt, but a response to this particular claim, and of what I can read I do not think we look so different in many things on this topic...

But I believe that there is a very obvious connection between Akhenatens monotheism and what that became to Judaism...

I am of the opinion that it was a group of Egyptians who immigrated and in a process of creating their own identity they/It became to Judaism...
No prob, I missed the earlier post like you said.

I don't disagree with a few similarities between Akhenaten's Aten worship and Abrahamic/Mosaic monotheism. The tradition could be related but there is no real evidence. There is a little more evidence to make an association with Thoth. And as I mentioned regarding the biblical exodus account, parallel variations are found all over the world. The people practicing it in Canaan were not the ancestors (genetic or religious but distantly related) of modern Jews, they were the ancestors of modern Samaritans and Druze. Their monotheism was a 'Northern Israel' tradition so-to-speak. It may have been influenced by Akhenaten's Aten but we have no way of knowing.

Speaking of Canaan, there are really only two 'planets' mentioned in the biblical account: Shahar (Lucifer) and Shalim (Salem aka Jerusalem), the morning star and the evening star. Venus and Saturn. But why Saturn?

During the Greek and Roman periods when names of Titans and gods were applied to celestial objects, the planet Venus was associated with the morning and evening stars (depending on it's 'year' and side of the sun) and this has become the mainstream interpretation of the ancient references. Yet they're ignoring Saturn worship. Without a telescope, Saturn is uninteresting. I have a feeling that it wasn't Venus or the modern planet Saturn in mention. And the destruction of Jerusalem and/or its temple does not in fact refer to an Earthly city or temple. It was probably Saturn exploding and going Nova or whatever. The death of Tammuz/Dumuzi. There are variations of the Saturn theory, but Earth doesn't have to change orbit. I'm sure Saturn probably looked like a winged disc after such an explosion even from Earth and eventually the remains became its rings.

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Old 25-08-2012, 11:29 AM   #42
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No prob, I missed the earlier post like you said.

I don't disagree with a few similarities between Akhenaten's Aten worship and Abrahamic/Mosaic monotheism. The tradition could be related but there is no real evidence.
No problem. I agree that many times there is no concrete evidence on many religious writings, and that one often have to draw conclusions based on logical assumptions in this respect, may I ask you if you have read "Moses and Monotheism" by Sigmund Freud? I myself am only half way through this and I must say that what I have read so far than it makes perfect sense. And I can really recommend this.A real eye-opener...

I agree that there are several gods in the game over time., and also believe that there is a gap of about 800 years before moses new religion manifests itself to the Yahweh we know today in Judaism...there is no doubt that Yahweh is changing personality over time...


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Old 25-08-2012, 11:44 PM   #43
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No problem. I agree that many times there is no concrete evidence on many religious writings, and that one often have to draw conclusions based on logical assumptions in this respect, may I ask you if you have read "Moses and Monotheism" by Sigmund Freud? I myself am only half way through this and I must say that what I have read so far than it makes perfect sense. And I can really recommend this.A real eye-opener...

I agree that there are several gods in the game over time., and also believe that there is a gap of about 800 years before moses new religion manifests itself to the Yahweh we know today in Judaism...there is no doubt that Yahweh is changing personality over time...


Cheers
I have read Moses and Monotheism. I think that's were a lot of the Akhenaten theories about Moses came from. There are, again, similar aspects. But there are also huge differences and it could be because of evolving during the gap. We just don't have any conclusive evidence. There is also no evidence of Israelites/Hebrews in Canaan. There were nomadic raiders living in the mountains called Habiru. The Philistines and Phoenicians lived on the coast and the Philistines were probably proto-Greek, originating with the Sea Peoples invasion and their settlement in Canaan by Egypt around the same time period the Exodus supposedly took place. Phoenicians were cousins of theirs and not attacked by Sea Peoples (probably because of this). They worshipped Ba'al and some worshipped Yahweh. The Habiru and the Shasu worshipped Yahweh. Both were Nomads. The monotheists similar to Judaism (and later Islam) with some characteristics of Atenism developed in Northern Palestine and Syria into the Samaritan and Druze religions, especially the Druze.

Freud might of got the idea from the Zohar which claims Moses was killed by somebody of the tribe of Manasseh. Manasseh's alleged territory would almost fit the Samaritan and Druze territory. How this came to have an influence on the Jewish religion, I have no clue. But the collective unconscious memory inherited by genes is an interesting theory which I don't doubt.

How Saturn fits into this, I still don't know but I do think at one time our Solar System's configuration was very different in human history and as crazy as it may be for some, Saturn was a sun. Maybe even Jupiter was a sun. Maybe Jupiter and Saturn together were that sun. Earth, Mars, Saturn, and Neptune have a similar axial tilt and I don't think that's just a coincidence.
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Old 26-08-2012, 06:50 PM   #44
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You guys shouldbuy my book if you're interested in this such matters.
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Old 27-08-2012, 03:38 AM   #45
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You guys shouldbuy my book if you're interested in this such matters.
Have a link where I can find out more info about your book?

I've read Talbott's stuff regarding the Saturn theory and his polar configuration. I've also read extensively about Saturn in myth and the worship associated which appears to persist in the modern era. At first I rejected it all due to ignorance. Not I'm beginning to realize how much it fits and makes sense.
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Old 27-08-2012, 02:54 PM   #46
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From Wikipedia -

"There are alternative ways to visualise Orion. From the Southern Hemisphere, Orion is oriented south-upward, and the belt and sword are sometimes called the saucepan or pot in Australia and New Zealand. Orion's Belt is called Drie Konings (Three Kings) or the Drie Susters (Three Sisters) by Afrikaans speakers in South Africa[2] and are referred to as les Trois Rois (the Three Kings) in Daudet's Lettres de Mon Moulin (1866). The appellation Driekoningen (the Three Kings) is also often found in 17th- and 18th-century Dutch star charts and seaman's guides. The same three stars are known in Spain and Latin America as "Las Tres Marías".
Thanks, but wikipedia doesn't give any reference other than to an Afrikaan's Bible so it seems the title is a relatively new one. Any one who tries to assert the ancient use if this title would need to find an ancient pre christan reference to it.
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Old 28-08-2012, 04:23 PM   #47
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Good points Kasalt...

Going back to religion being based upon celestial movements - Christmas happens during the winter solstace, the shortest day of the year where, after that, the days become longer as if the Sun has been 'reborn'... Now, Christmas falls on the date of Saturnalia, but it is also a celebration of the birth of Jesus, the Son/Sun.

The Nativity is full of celestial symbolism, for example -

The 'three kings' is commonly the name for the 3 stars in Orion's belt. On Christmas, these stars aline with the star Sirius (the brightest star in the sky), which, in turn, alines with the Sun... So it appears that the 3 kings are following the brightest star to the Son.
"We Three Kings", also known as "We Three Kings of Orient Are" or "The Quest of the Magi"...



http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...t=74914&page=4

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Old 05-09-2012, 12:41 AM   #48
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Found another informative link on the subject:

http://saturndeathcult.com/

Just thought I'd post it for anyone interested...
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Old 05-09-2012, 06:10 PM   #49
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Found another informative link on the subject:

http://saturndeathcult.com/

Just thought I'd post it for anyone interested...
Looks like a good site Kasalt - I've got some reading to do!

Looks like the website talks about man observing celestial catastrophes, and recording them as myths. Notably Saturn being the original Sun, and those in Saturn Death Cults wanting another 'Golden Age' where Saturn takes centre stage once more. It also talks about the elites gaining power through the use of money and debt-based slavery.

And the development of their twisted rituals, originally to mimic celestial events to gain knowledge of the Gods and prevent other catastrophes, becoming an excuse for the rape of women and children and child sacrifice...

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Old 05-09-2012, 07:18 PM   #50
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Looks like a good site Kasalt - I've got some reading to do!

Looks like the website talks about man observing celestial catastrophes, and recording them as myths. Notably Saturn being the original Sun, and those in Saturn Death Cults wanting another 'Golden Age' where Saturn takes centre stage once more. It also talks about the elites gaining power through the use of money and debt-based slavery.

And the development of their twisted rituals, originally to mimic celestial events to gain knowledge of the Gods and prevent other catastrophes, becoming an excuse for the rape of women and children and child sacrifice...
But why though? Let's assume that elites sacrifice children and worship Saturn in the modern era (which circumstantial evidence and claims support). Why? If sacrificing a child is a purely symbolic act, what would be the point in maintaining a tradition like that? Just because it's tradition or because it actually empowers them in some way? Killing a child for a symbolic traditionally ritual is a bit risky in the modern era, even if they get off on it.

And why the worship of Saturn if it was just a dead sun that is now a pin point of light in the night sky? If all the gas giants ignited and combined into a new sun and our current one fizzled out and became gas giant planets, assuming we survived would anybody worship those new planets because they used to be the sun?

From that I draw these potential conclusions:

a. The author is completely wrong

b. The author is partially right but also partially wrong

c. The author is wrong about the death cult thing, it's just an absurd fringe claim without any real evidence to support it.

d. The author is right about the death cult thing, elites do worship Saturn and sacrifice in it's name hoping someday it will re-ignite or something

e. The author is right about the death cult thing, but the cult and their rituals are psychopathic traditions that don't actually do anything except satisfy their psychotic nature

f. The author is right about the death cult thing and there is some sort of immaterial power us sheeple cannot comprehend which is why they continue to worship and sacrifice

etc.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:26 PM   #51
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But why though? Let's assume that elites sacrifice children and worship Saturn in the modern era (which circumstantial evidence and claims support). Why? If sacrificing a child is a purely symbolic act, what would be the point in maintaining a tradition like that? Just because it's tradition or because it actually empowers them in some way? Killing a child for a symbolic traditionally ritual is a bit risky in the modern era, even if they get off on it.

And why the worship of Saturn if it was just a dead sun that is now a pin point of light in the night sky? If all the gas giants ignited and combined into a new sun and our current one fizzled out and became gas giant planets, assuming we survived would anybody worship those new planets because they used to be the sun?

From that I draw these potential conclusions:

a. The author is completely wrong

b. The author is partially right but also partially wrong

c. The author is wrong about the death cult thing, it's just an absurd fringe claim without any real evidence to support it.

d. The author is right about the death cult thing, elites do worship Saturn and sacrifice in it's name hoping someday it will re-ignite or something

e. The author is right about the death cult thing, but the cult and their rituals are psychopathic traditions that don't actually do anything except satisfy their psychotic nature

f. The author is right about the death cult thing and there is some sort of immaterial power us sheeple cannot comprehend which is why they continue to worship and sacrifice

etc.
I like e. I don't think the author has everything right either... but I think that ancient peoples observing catastrophic celestial events is an interesting concept I think it might be that the elites know that Yahweh was originally El, who is a god of Saturn... so they worship accordingly.

And the problem is, sacrificing children today isn't risky - Nearly 800,000 children (younger than 18) go missing each year in the US, on average 2,185 children reported missing each day. Now lets just say a mere 1% of the 800,000 are abducted for sacrifice (so we're accounting for children abducted by family members, children who run away, get lost, are killed in the conventional sense, up for ransom, etc.)... 1% of 800,000 is still 8,000 children a year!!!
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Old 21-09-2012, 03:44 PM   #52
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Hello,

Below is a link to my blog. I tend to write about UFOs and aliens but my most recent entry is about Saturn and his role in Judaism/Christianity. I basically start with the Roman God Saturn and follow his equivalents back through time. By questioning aspects of Greek mythology I hit on a disturbing truth involving Israelites and child sacrifice.

I worked really hard on it and did a lot of research, so I hope some of you will find it interesting. Any comments are more than welcome

This will take you to my home page, just click 'Blog' at the top...
http://www.hanware.co.uk/
what do you mean "i work really hard on it"?
you think real experience can be replaced by intellectual knowledge?
well i don't think you are going about it the right way...the methodology is everything in this respect.
Of course some people like to masturbate and think they are so clever. Pride is Satan's sin isn't it?
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Old 21-09-2012, 03:49 PM   #53
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Saturn? do you mean the palnet? there is no real god existing by this name...just stories the ancient romans and greeks liked to tell themselves.
You can invent any tale. Man's imagination has no limits and he so loves tell himself tales...specially unbblievable ones of mysteries and horrors and fame and god knows what other fanciful fantiasies.
honestly you cannot take all this seriously can you? we are in the 21st century!
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Old 21-09-2012, 04:00 PM   #54
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El, the Phoenician Cronus

When Hellenes encountered Phoenicians and, later, Hebrews, they identified the Semitic El, by interpretatio graeca, with Cronus. The association was recorded ca. AD 100 by Philo of Byblos' Phoenician history, as reported in Eusebius' Præparatio Evangelica I.10.16. Philo's account, ascribed by Eusebius to the semi-legendary pre-Trojan War Phoenician historian Sanchuniathon, indicates that Cronus was originally a Canaanite ruler who founded Byblos and was subsequently deified. This version gives his alternate name as Elus or Ilus, and states that in the 32nd year of his reign, he emasculated, slew and deified his father Epigeius or Autochthon "whom they afterwards called Uranus". It further states that after ships were invented, Cronus, visiting the 'inhabitable world', bequeathed Attica to his own daughter Athena, and Egypt to Thoth the son of Misor and inventor of writing...
Actualy the Phoenician El is in contrast with the greek Saturn from many perspecives. Phonician EL does not eat his children, he does live on the mountain top since he is the god of all the other gods and everything else.
He is an elder giving advice to the younger children, he is very mercyful and full of goodness

This is in contrast to the harsh greek Chronos that eats his babies.
These two characters the Phoenician god with the greek Chronus don't match very well in this aspect. One is kind has mercy, always helps his children, the other(Greek Chronus) is harsh, eats his babies, shows violence.

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Old 24-09-2012, 01:00 AM   #55
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"When the Hebrews left Egypt and arrived in Canaan, their religion was influenced by the Canaanite religion whose God was named El (the planet of Saturn). The Star of David is a symbol which comes from the “star” of Saturn (El) which is the planet the ancients used to refer to the Hebrews." -- Source: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen13.html
"The six-pointed star is commonly used both as a talisman and for conjuring spirits in the practice of witchcraft. In the book The History and Practice of Magic, Vol. 2, the six-pointed star is called the talisman of Saturn..." -- Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagra...e_in_occultism
The "star" referred to in Amos 5:26 as "Chiun" is apparently a reference to Saturn, according to many biblical reference works.

The intersection of a hexagram is a hexagon, and there is a hexagon-shaped cloud formation on Saturn's north pole:

The Bizarre Hexagon on Saturn - YouTube

Interestingly, a hexagon has six sides and Saturn is the sixth planet in the solar system.

Blavatsky states on p. 417 of The Secret Doctrine:
"Schemal and Samael represented a particular divinity. With the Kabalists they are "the Spirit of the Earth," the personal god that governs it, identical de facto with Jehovah. For the Talmudists admit themselves that SAMAEL is a god-name of one of the seven Elohim. The Kabalists, moreover, show the two, Schemal and Samael, as a symbolical form of Saturn, CHRONOS, the twelve wings standing for the 12 months, and the symbol in its collectivity representing a racial cycle. Jehovah and Saturn are also glyphically identical."
Also of interest (though perhaps unrelated) is the "all-seeing eye" formation on Saturn's south pole:



All just coincidences perhaps, but nevertheless quite interesting.

All of^^THIS has always been my major fascination with Saturn.



The Cube.
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Old 24-09-2012, 02:16 AM   #56
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Saturn? do you mean the palnet? there is no real god existing by this name...just stories the ancient romans and greeks liked to tell themselves.
You can invent any tale. Man's imagination has no limits and he so loves tell himself tales...specially unbblievable ones of mysteries and horrors and fame and god knows what other fanciful fantiasies.
honestly you cannot take all this seriously can you? we are in the 21st century!
Huh?

Mythology is not just stories. Our history is encoded within them. Stories which were told and evolved orally before committed to writing. Writing which was translated and vandalized. Some of the stories are deliberately metaphorical. Like the Greek myth about Ixion (Zion... lol!). Pre-Christian Welsh mythology has some of the most obvious and deepest symbolism of any other myths.

Stories my arse. When the entire world has myths about earthquakes, volcanic eruption, scalding air (steam), the sky falling in flaming rocky chunks, lightning, and floods, they're not just stories. Our ancestors survived a terrible catastrophe(s). Primitive imagination doesn't make this stuff up.

As for the Saturn theory, the myths point to it. Helios and Sol used to refer to Saturn. From the Greek myth about Eros:

Quote:
At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night (Nyx), Darkness (Erebus), and the Abyss (Tartarus). Earth, the Air and Heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Darkness, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Love (Eros) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in the deep Abyss with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light
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Old 26-09-2012, 10:49 PM   #57
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what do you mean "i work really hard on it"?
you think real experience can be replaced by intellectual knowledge?
well i don't think you are going about it the right way...the methodology is everything in this respect.
Of course some people like to masturbate and think they are so clever. Pride is Satan's sin isn't it?
What? I said I worked hard on it because I did a lot of research and put a lot of time, effort and thought into it...

And what do you mean 'real experience', I'm sorry - can you travel back in time to when the israelites adopted Yahweh into their religion? Can you observe their methods of worship as the Greeks did? I'll try harder next time.

Stop making an arse of yourself and actually contribute something of worth to this thread, if you're so bloody clever
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:33 PM   #58
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I love Saturn! He rules my Ascendant Capricorn.
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