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Old 26-04-2009, 08:22 PM   #181
phildee3
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phildee3, but the eating of flesh and drinking of blood is also a Christian practice.


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However yes this is practiced at brotherhood rituals as well. I mentioned the blood drinking already, but nothing of the flesh, however yes it does happen.
Yes, I know,
but my question was regarding the absense of a deity to venerate or offer sacrifice to (eg. Molech or Satan).

Emphasis on "pure" rather than "theophagy."
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Old 26-04-2009, 08:27 PM   #182
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Yes, I know.
but my question was regarding the absense of a deity to venerate or offer sacrifice to (eg. Molech or Satan).
There is not always the need for an entity to offer a sacrifice to, although yes it is often the case that this is done, however it is not essential to the ritual to do so. It is the taking in of the life and energy of the victom that amplifies the results.
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Old 26-04-2009, 08:31 PM   #183
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There is not always the need for an entity to offer a sacrifice to, although yes it is often the case that this is done,
I'm surprised.
I thought that they would be above that
(or, at least, think they are).
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Old 26-04-2009, 08:44 PM   #184
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I'm surprised.
I thought that they would be above that
(or, at least, think they are).
They do not worship these beings the same way that religious people do. They exchange sacrifices for survices, information or guidance. There is no god/creator to the brotherhood.
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Old 26-04-2009, 08:58 PM   #185
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They do not worship these beings the same way that religious people do. They exchange sacrifices for survices, information or guidance. There is no god/creator to the brotherhood.
Is there no heirarchy?
I mean, are these beings not under the authority of another (eg. "Satan"), or are they egalitarian?
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Old 26-04-2009, 10:33 PM   #186
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Do you have any proof of this.?
Yes. I'm going to quote from Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels, as it is more convenient than paging through the Church Fathers:

Quote:
Many, at the moment of decision, made the opposite choice. Some considered martyrdom foolish, wasteful of human life, and so, contrary to God's will. They argued that "Christ, having died for us, was killed so that we might not be killed."
...
The orthodox who expressed the greatest concern to refute "heretical" gnostic views of Christ's passion were, without exception, persons who knew from firsthand experience the dangers to which Christians were exposed—and who insisted on the necessity of accepting martyrdom.
...
Ignatius complains that those who qualify his view of Christ's suffering "are not moved by my own personal sufferings; for they think the same things about me!"45 His gnostic opponents, challenging his understanding of Christ's passion, directly call into question the value of his voluntary martyrdom.
...
Justin concludes his second Apology ("Defense" for the Christians) saying that he has written it for the sole purpose of refuting "wicked and deceitful" gnostic ideas. He attacks those who, he says, are "called Christians," but whom he considers heretics—followers of Simon, Marcion, and Valen-tinus.49 "We do not know," he says darkly—combining admission with insinuation—whether they actually indulge in promiscuity or cannibalism, but, he adds, "we do know" one of their crimes: unlike the orthodox, "they are neither persecuted nor put to death" as martyrs.
...
What pattern, then, do we observe? The opponents of heresy in the second century—Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus—are unanimous both in proclaiming Christ's passion and death and in affirming martyrdom. Also, they all accuse the heretics of false teaching about Christ's suffering and of "opposing martyrdom."
And Irenaeus:
Quote:
And although these things are so, some of these men have proceeded to such a degree of temerity, that they even pour contempt upon the martyrs, and vituperate those who are slain on account of the confession of the Lord, and who suffer all things predicted by the Lord, and who in this respect strive to follow the footprints of the Lord's passion, having become martyrs of the suffering One; these we do also enrol with the martyrs themselves. For, when inquisition shall be made for their blood, [3655] and they shall attain to glory, then all shall be confounded by Christ, who have cast a slur upon their martyrdom.
suck it

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Old 26-04-2009, 10:56 PM   #187
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Yes. I'm going to quote from Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels, as it is more convenient than paging through the Church Fathers:


And Irenaeus:

suck it
thanks for that

According to some Christ is just a myth.

I suppose in every walk of life anyone would try to defend themselves,and I am sure you would if someone threatened to throw you to the lions or some other kind of fate.

Would you martyr yourself for your beliefs?

Suck what exactly? BTW you were not there was you,so pointing the finger is subjective.

so suck that.

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Old 27-04-2009, 02:12 AM   #188
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I suppose in every walk of life anyone would try to defend themselves,and I am sure you would if someone threatened to throw you to the lions or some other kind of fate.

Would you martyr yourself for your beliefs?
I am something of a nihilist, so probably not.

I just feel that we need to be absolutely and entirely objective with these things and not attempt to color the data with our various beliefs.

Quote:
Suck what exactly? BTW you were not there was you,so pointing the finger is subjective.

so suck that.
Feel free to mentally replace that phrase with "stick that in your pipe and smoke it" if it offends your delicate sensibilities.

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Old 27-04-2009, 11:59 AM   #189
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Yes. I'm going to quote from Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels, as it is more convenient than paging through the Church Fathers:
Since these were written before 385 AD, it would appear safe to say that the Gnostics escaped martyrdom until 385, when Priscillian was executed for heresy, rather than:

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..the Gnostics, who were more than happy to say and do whatever they needed to appease the Romans, never got martyred.
(my emphasis)
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Old 27-04-2009, 12:05 PM   #190
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Ok, this has been a very interesting thread thus far, can we keep it to exchanges of information and civil debates? I would hate to see a thread like this pushed off track by resorting to insults. Thank you.
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Old 27-04-2009, 12:21 PM   #191
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I heard Molech first mentioned by Alex Jones when I watched Dark Secrets..

After that I heard David Icke repeat it at a show he did. Other than that I haven't come across Molech...

I dunno, I think it was a mistake made by Alex Jones because of the Cremation of Care ritual. They sacrificed what seemed to be a child to a Babylonian deity (who they called the great owl of Bohemia), but the thing Alex picked up on mostly was the child sacrifice bit, which is what Molech was for..

The Ishtar/Minerva/Athene/whatever Owl goddess connection wasn't made instantly by both of them.

After I watched Dark Secrets and find out the Capitol Building is sitting in the belly of an owl (on top of a pyramid) I'm quite sure that it is indeed that female owl deity they are worshipping there. She's female, so that also explains why there are no women at the Grove, she's the only one allowed in...
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Old 27-04-2009, 07:41 PM   #192
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Since these were written before 385 AD, it would appear safe to say that the Gnostics escaped martyrdom until 385, when Priscillian was executed for heresy, rather than:
Well, yes. But Lightgiver seemed to be referring to those martyrs prior to Constantine. We can throw in the Cathars and our friends the Templars, too.

And in their own words: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/testruth.html

Quote:
... everyone [...] how many they are! They are blind guides, like the disciples. They boarded the ship; at about thirty stadies, they saw Jesus walking on the sea. These are empty martyrs, since they bear witness only to themselves. And yet they are sick, and they are not able to raise themselves.

But when they are "perfected" with a (martyr's) death, this is the thought that they have within them: "If we deliver ourselves over to death for the sake of the Name we will be saved." These matters are not settled in this way. But through the agency of the wandering stars they say they have "completed" their futile "course", and [...] say, [...]. But these [...] they have delivered themselves ...
... (7 lines unrecoverable)
... but they resemble [...] them. They do not have the word which gives life.
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Old 27-04-2009, 08:04 PM   #193
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Well, yes. But Lightgiver seemed to be referring to those martyrs prior to Constantine.
I wasn't referring to lightgiver's post, I was referring to yours (no.158).
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Old 27-04-2009, 08:06 PM   #194
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Default Toke it.

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I am something of a nihilist, so probably not.

I just feel that we need to be absolutely and entirely objective with these things and not attempt to color the data with our various beliefs.


Feel free to mentally replace that phrase with "stick that in your pipe and smoke it" if it offends your delicate sensibilities.
I gave up quite a bit ago

I go with what I feel.
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Old 27-04-2009, 08:29 PM   #195
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Ok, this has been a very interesting thread thus far, can we keep it to exchanges of information and civil debates? I would hate to see a thread like this pushed off track by resorting to insults. Thank you.
Very much so

I have been reading this thread and am enjoying all the info coming out, from all sides of the debate.

You have said that the term Satan is just a Christian term DE I get that, but does it not just represent evil?

If the world has been under the control of the Reptilian agenda, which I believe. Then even the term Lucifer as a light bringer just as incorrect?

.
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Old 27-04-2009, 09:36 PM   #196
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Default Ode to Wisdom

ODE to WISDOM,
By a Lady.

I.

The solitary Bird of Night
Thro' the thick Shades now wings his Flight,
And quits his Time-shook Tow'r;
Where, shelter'd from the Blaze of Day,
In Philosophic Gloom he lay,
Beneath his Ivy Bow'r.

II.

With Joy I hear the solemn Sound,
Which midnight Echoes waft around,
And sighing Gales repeat.
Fav'rite of Pallas! I attend,
And, faithful to thy Summons, bend
At Wisdom's awful Seat.

III.

She loves the cool, the silent Eve,
Where no false Shews of Life deceive,
Beneath the Lunar Ray.
Here Folly drops each vain Disguise,
Nor sport her gaily-colour'd Dyes,
As in the Beam of Day.

IV.

O Pallas! Queen of ev'ry Art,
That glads the Sense, and mends the Heart,
Blest Source of purer Joys!
In ev'ry Form of Beauty bright,
That captivates the mental Sight
With Pleasure and Surprize;

V.

To thy unspotted Shrine I bow:
Attend thy modest Suppliant's Vow,
That breathes no wild Desires;
But taught by thy unerring Rules,
To shun the fruitless Wish of Fools,
To nobler Views aspires.

VI.

Not Fortune's Gem, Ambition's Plume,
Nor Cytherea's fading Bloom,
Be Objects of my Pray'r:
Let Av'rice, Vanity, and Pride,
Those envy'd glitt'ring Toys divide,
The dull Rewards of Care.

VII.

To me thy better Gifts impart,
Each moral Beauty of the Heart,
By studious Thought refin'd;
For Wealth, the Smiles of glad Content,
For Pow'r, its amplest, best Extent,
An Empire o'er my Mind.

VIII.

When Fortune drops her gay Parade,
When Pleasure's transient Roses fade,
And wither in the Tomb,
Unchang'd is thy immortal Prize;
Thy ever-verdant Laurels rise
In undecaying Bloom.

IX.

By Thee protected, I defy
The Coxcomb's Sneer, the stupid Lye
Of Ignorance and Spite:
Alike contemn the leaden Fool,
And all the pointed Ridicule
Of undiscerning Wit.

X.

From Envy, Hurry, Noise, and Strife,
The dull Impertinence of Life,
In thy Retreat I rest:
Pursue thee to the peaceful Groves,
Where Plato's sacred Spirit roves,
In all thy Beauties drest.

XI.

He bad Ilyssus' tuneful Stream
Convey thy Philosophic Theme
Of Perfect, Fair, and Good:
Attentive Athens caught the Sound,
And all her list'ning Sons around
In awful Silence stood:

XII.

Reclaim'd her wild, licentious Youth,
Confess'd the potent Voice of Truth,
And felt its just Controul.
The Passions ceas'd their loud Alarms,
And Virtue's soft persuasive Charms
O'er all their Senses stole.

XIII.

Thy Breath inspires the Poet's Song,
The Patriot's free, unbiass'd Tongue,
The Hero's gen'rous Strife;
Thine are Retirement's silent Joys,
And all the sweet engaging Ties
Of still, domestic Life.

XIV

No more to fabled Names confin'd,
To the Supreme all-perfect Mind,
My Thoughts direct their Flight.
Wisdom's thy Gift & all her force
From thee deriv'd Eternal Source
Of Intellectual Light.

XV

O send her sure, her steady Ray,
To regulate my doubtful Way,
Thro' Life's perplexing Road:
The Mists of Error to controul,
And thro' its Gloom direct my Soul
To Happiness and Good.

XVI

Beneath Her clear discerning Eye
The visionary Shadows fly
Of Folly's painted Show.
She sees thro' ev'ry fair Disguise,

That All but Virtue's solid Joys,
Are Vanity and Woe.

And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

Last edited by lightgiver; 27-04-2009 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 27-04-2009, 10:01 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightgiver View Post
ODE to WISDOM,
By a Lady.

I.

The solitary Bird of Night
Thro' the thick Shades now wings his Flight,
And quits his Time-shook Tow'r;
Where, shelter'd from the Blaze of Day,
In Philosophic Gloom he lay,
Beneath his Ivy Bow'r.

II.

With Joy I hear the solemn Sound,
Which midnight Echoes waft around,
And sighing Gales repeat.
Fav'rite of Pallas! I attend,
And, faithful to thy Summons, bend
At Wisdom's awful Seat.

III.

She loves the cool, the silent Eve,
Where no false Shews of Life deceive,
Beneath the Lunar Ray.
Here Folly drops each vain Disguise,
Nor sport her gaily-colour'd Dyes,
As in the Beam of Day.

IV.

O Pallas! Queen of ev'ry Art,
That glads the Sense, and mends the Heart,
Blest Source of purer Joys!
In ev'ry Form of Beauty bright,
That captivates the mental Sight
With Pleasure and Surprize;

V.

To thy unspotted Shrine I bow:
Attend thy modest Suppliant's Vow,
That breathes no wild Desires;
But taught by thy unerring Rules,
To shun the fruitless Wish of Fools,
To nobler Views aspires.

VI.

Not Fortune's Gem, Ambition's Plume,
Nor Cytherea's fading Bloom,
Be Objects of my Pray'r:
Let Av'rice, Vanity, and Pride,
Those envy'd glitt'ring Toys divide,
The dull Rewards of Care.

VII.

To me thy better Gifts impart,
Each moral Beauty of the Heart,
By studious Thought refin'd;
For Wealth, the Smiles of glad Content,
For Pow'r, its amplest, best Extent,
An Empire o'er my Mind.

VIII.

When Fortune drops her gay Parade,
When Pleasure's transient Roses fade,
And wither in the Tomb,
Unchang'd is thy immortal Prize;
Thy ever-verdant Laurels rise
In undecaying Bloom.

IX.

By Thee protected, I defy
The Coxcomb's Sneer, the stupid Lye
Of Ignorance and Spite:
Alike contemn the leaden Fool,
And all the pointed Ridicule
Of undiscerning Wit.

X.

From Envy, Hurry, Noise, and Strife,
The dull Impertinence of Life,
In thy Retreat I rest:
Pursue thee to the peaceful Groves,
Where Plato's sacred Spirit roves,
In all thy Beauties drest.

XI.

He bad Ilyssus' tuneful Stream
Convey thy Philosophic Theme
Of Perfect, Fair, and Good:
Attentive Athens caught the Sound,
And all her list'ning Sons around
In awful Silence stood:

XII.

Reclaim'd her wild, licentious Youth,
Confess'd the potent Voice of Truth,
And felt its just Controul.
The Passions ceas'd their loud Alarms,
And Virtue's soft persuasive Charms
O'er all their Senses stole.

XIII.

Thy Breath inspires the Poet's Song,
The Patriot's free, unbiass'd Tongue,
The Hero's gen'rous Strife;
Thine are Retirement's silent Joys,
And all the sweet engaging Ties
Of still, domestic Life.

XIV

No more to fabled Names confin'd,
To the Supreme all-perfect Mind,
My Thoughts direct their Flight.
Wisdom's thy Gift & all her force
From thee deriv'd Eternal Source
Of Intellectual Light.

XV

O send her sure, her steady Ray,
To regulate my doubtful Way,
Thro' Life's perplexing Road:
The Mists of Error to controul,
And thro' its Gloom direct my Soul
To Happiness and Good.

XVI

Beneath Her clear discerning Eye
The visionary Shadows fly
Of Folly's painted Show.
She sees thro' ev'ry fair Disguise,

That All but Virtue's solid Joys,
Are Vanity and Woe.

And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
I know that Arabic language and Hebrew are very similar of course they are cousins after all.
Now, I know that the word Mawlek in arabic means "Your Master"
I am not sure though about the Hebrew word for Molech is.
But If they are worshipping Mawlek (Molech) it means it's their master.

The other thing is an owl can turn it's head 360 degres which means the all seeing eye.
it can see in the dark too, where you worship the prince of darkness (satan)

They are all linked
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Old 27-04-2009, 10:05 PM   #198
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Default 360 degrees

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Originally Posted by adbasque View Post
I know that Arabic language and Hebrew are very similar of course they are cousins after all.
Now, I know that the word Mawlek in arabic means "Your Master"
I am not sure though about the Hebrew word for Molech is.
But If they are worshipping Mawlek (Molech) it means it's their master.

The other thing is an owl can turn it's head 360 degres which means the all seeing eye.
it can see in the dark too, where you worship the prince of darkness (satan)

They are all linked
Highest degree in freemasonry,360 degrees,the Olympians,makes sense doesn't it

or maybe its the highest Illuminati degree?

yes it appears they are all linked

Leading the way out of the past

Yesterday hangs around our necks like a noose; paralysing us, inhibiting us, blocking the path to the future. By holding onto history we repeat the same mistakes over and over again, always stepping into the footprints of our past.

Here we ask - let go of what was, let go of your fear, let go of your anger - accept your place in existence. We are our own creators. Making this world into our image of what life should be. Then why not make it one of mutual respect, of hard work, of integrity, of love. But, most of all make it one that always steps proudly into the future.

Last edited by lightgiver; 27-04-2009 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 28-04-2009, 12:29 AM   #199
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bump!
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Old 28-04-2009, 11:04 PM   #200
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Default owls

twitt to woo.

anyone else any more to add,maybe then I should add something.

In Bertrand Russell's A Free Man's Worship, Moloch is used to describe a particularly savage brand of religion:

The savage, like ourselves, feels the oppression of his impotence before the powers of Nature; but having in himself nothing that he respects more than Power, he is willing to prostrate himself before his gods, without inquiring whether they are worthy of his worship. Pathetic and very terrible is the long history of cruelty and torture, of degradation and human sacrifice, endured in the hope of placating the jealous gods: surely, the trembling believer thinks, when what is most precious has been freely given, their lust for blood must be appeased, and more will not be required. The religion of Moloch — as such creeds may be generically called — is in essence the cringing submission of the slave, who dare not, even in his heart, allow the thought that his master deserves no adulation. Since the independence of ideals is not yet acknowledged, Power may be freely worshipped, and receive an unlimited respect, despite its wanton infliction of pain.

Begone Dull Care (Traditional)

Begone, dull care! I prithee begone from me; Begone, dull care! Thou and I can never agree. Long while thou hast been tarrying here, And fain thou wouldst me kill; But i' [in] faith, dull care, Thou never shalt have thy will.

Too much care Will make a young man grey; Too much care Will turn an old man to clay. My wife shall dance, and I shall sing, So merrily pass the day; For I hold it is the wisest thing, To drive dull care away.

Hence, dull care, I'll none of thy company; Hence, dull care, Thou art no pair for me. We'll hunt the wild boar through the wold, So merrily pass the day; And then at night, o'er a cheerful bowl, We'll drive dull care away.

Last edited by lightgiver; 28-04-2009 at 11:57 PM.
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