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Old 26-08-2010, 08:52 PM   #1
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Default UFO/Alien Chronological Thread Directory.

UFO/Alien Chronological Thread Directory;

Sticky anyone.

Alright, one thing I have noticed missing from the UFO forum is a total compilation, in chronological order of ALL of the better and more thoroughly covered UFO/Alien cases and related threads on here, pretty much a directory to help members find important threads amongst the vastness of the UFO forum. NICAP has their sighting chronology There have been such a great amount of threads posted on various UFO/Alien incidents throughout this history of this forum that I feel it is time to properly document all of these (and of course add as it becomes necessary) great cases excellently covered by investigation's ect. Some of the best UFO Cases (or the Classics) , this thread however is more of a “directory” of UFO cases;

Pre 1940 UFO Incidents;

UFO - Historical Sightings 45,000 BC - 9 BC;

I found this list of Historical sightings, and as you can see, it goes back almost 50.000 years.

It gets on a mindbogling chain of thought as to what did happend here on Earth?
And, can we in our era be adding to this 'sightnings' list in the same way?

source; http://www.bibleufo.com/ufos.htm

45,000 BC China Rock carvings of round UFO-like objects have been found in China's Hunan province. The depictions date back to age of the Neanderthals.

12,000 BC China The Dropa, the name given to visitors from Sirius, came down from the clouds with their air gliders.

8000 BC Australia The Aborigine believed in "dawn beings" from the stars. Australian aboriginal cave drawings depict celestial beings, with antenna and x-ray style drawings. They were very advanced in "aerodynamics". The boomerang is identical to a modern day aircraft wing. Aborigine means "from the beginning".

4000 BC The Sumerians from today’s Iraq had contact with extraterrestrial civilizations according to their text. The extraterrestrials also interbred with humans and traveled with them to the stars. The kings were taken to the stars by the extraterrestrials. Sumerian text coincides with "the book of genesis". Their astronomy was highly developed. They had numbers with 15 digits! The Sumerians say extraterrestrials are from Mars, the star system Pleiades, and the star Sirius. Sumerian text shows drawings of solar system.

3000 BC China From the book " Memories of the Sovereigns and the Kings " published in the 3rd century AD, in China, in the third millennium B.C., before the birth of Huang Ti or of Chi You , "sons from the sky", would descend to Earth on a star which was the shape of a saucer.

2345 BC China The, Hsui-nan-tzu, a Chinese classic there is a description of ten suns appearing in the sky.

2000 BC Peru’s pre-Incan civilization records the gods were from the star system Pleiades. Inca ruins have been found at 13,000 feet, with one stone weighing 20,000 tons. Legend tells of spaceships that came from the stars. Inca ornaments of "platinum" were found. Text reveals the Inca’s knew the earth was round.

1766 BC China The Emperor Cheng Tang commissions Ki-Kung-shi to construct a flying chariot. After construction the aircraft was tested, reaching the province of Honan. The vessel was destroyed by imperial edict, as he Emperor feared the mechanism might fall into the wrong hands.

1500 BC Egypt The Palace of Pharaoh Thutmosis III. Circles of fire are said to have hovered over the palace while fishes, winged creatures, and other objects rained down from the sky.

593 BC Ezekiel witnesses an event which some writers have claimed sounds suspiciously like a UFO encounter. Josef Blumrich, former chief of the systems layout branch of NASA, set out to disprove such suggestions, however, from a careful analysis of the data available, he concluded that the vehicle described in the Bible actually was a UFO.

400 BC India From the Mahabbarata. Blazing discs burned and destroyed an entire city and its inhabitants, before returning to the hand of Vishnu.

332 BC Phoenicia, Tyre During the siege of the trade capital of Phoenicia by the Greeks a fleet of flying shields is described as plunged from the sky and crashed upon the city walls.

329 BC Alexander the Great records two great silver shields, spitting fire around the rims in the sky that dived repeatedly at his army as they were attempting a river crossing. The action so panicked his elephants, horses, and men they had to abandon the river crossing until the following day.

223 BC Rome "At Ariminium a bright light like the day blazed out at night; in many portions of Italy three moons became visible in the night time." - Dio Cassius, Roman History, Book I

222 BC Rome "Also three moons have appeared at once, for instance, in the consulship of Gnaeus Domitius and Gaius Fannius." - Pliny, Natural History, Book II, Ch. 32

218 BC Rome Glowing lamps were seen in the sky at Praeneste, a shield was observed at Arpi and in the Amiterno district, the sky was all on fire, and men in white garments appear.

217 BC "At Faleri the sky had seemed to be rent as it were with a great fissure and through the opening a bright light had shone." - Livy, History, Book XXII, Ch. 1

214 BC "At Hadria an altar was seen in the sky and about it the forms of men in white clothes." - Julius Obsequens, Prodigiorum Libellus, Ch. 66

163 BC Formice "In the consulship of Tiberius Gracchus and Manius Juventus at Capua the sun was seen by night. At Formice two suns were seen by day. The sky was afire. In Cephallenia a trumpet seemed to sound from the sky. There was a rain of earth. A windstorm demolished houses and laid crops flat in the field. By night an apparent sun shone at Pisaurum." - Obsequens, Prodigiorum, Ch 114

122 BC Gaul "In Gaul three suns and three moons were seen." - Obsequens, Prodigiorum, Ch. 114

99 BC Rome In Tarquinia, there fell things like a flaming torch in different places from the sky. Towards sunset, a round object like a globe, or round or circular shield took its path in the sky, from west to east.

90 BC Rome In the territory of Spoletium, in Umbria, a globe of fire, of golden color appeared burning in the north with a terrific noise in the sky, then fell, gyrating, to the earth. It then seemed to increase in size, rose from the earth, and ascended into the sky, where it obscured the disc of the sun, with its brilliance. It revolved towards the eastern quadrant of the sky.

85 BC "In the consulship of Lucius Valerius and Caius Marius a burning shield scattering sparks ran across the sky. " - Pliny, Natural History, Book II, Ch. 34

[color=yellow]81 BC Spoletium: "Near Spoletium a gold-colored fireball rolled down to the ground, increased in size; seemed to move off the ground toward the east and was big enough to blot out the sun." - Obsequens, Prodigiorum, Ch. 114

73 BC Asia Minor, Pontus: While Roman legions were engaged in battle near the Black Sea against King Mithridates a huge flaming object fell between the two armies. It was said to have a shape like a wine jar and was the color of molten lead.

66 BC "In the consulship of Gnaeus Octavius and Gaius Suetonius a spark was seen to fall from a star and increase in size as it approached the earth. After becoming as large as the moon it diffused a sort of cloudy daylight and then returning to the sky changed into a torch. This is the only record of its occurrence. It was seen by the proconsul Silenus and his suite. " - Pliny, Natural History, Book II, Ch. 35

48 BC "Thunderbolts had fallen upon Pompey's camp. A fire had appeared in the air over Caesar's camp and had fallen upon Pompey's ... In Syria two young men announced the result of the battle (in Thessaly) and vanished." - Dio Cassius, Roman History, Book IV

42 BC Rome From Prodigia of Julius Obsequens, “Something like a sort of weapon, or missile, rose with a great noise from the earth and soared into the sky.”

12 BC Rome A comet-like object hovered days over Rome for several then melted into flashes resembling torches.

9 BC Japan, Kyushu Nine moons were seen in the night sky over the community.

A 17th Century Contactee;

In the year 1714, the Swedish mystic Emanual Swedenborg, who claimed to be in contact with "beings from other planets" drew a sketch of a "Flying Machine": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Machine_(Swedenborg)

Historians have acknowledged this as the first sketch of aircraft-machinery. His ideas were ridiculed by Skeptics of his age. In addressing such Skeptics Swedenborg once said:

The art of flying is hardly yet born. It will be perfected and some day people will fly up to the moon. Do we pretend to have discovered everything, or to have brought our knowledge to a point where nothing can be added to it? Oh, for mercy's sake, let us agree that there is still something left for the ages to come!

Swedenborg also proposed other devices and inventions which were way ahead of his time:

In the field of biology, Swedenborg stressed on the importance of cerebral cortex. Apart from these, he drew feasible sketches of futuristic machines, including an airplane, a submarine, a steam engine, an air gun and a slow-combustion stove
Source http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profi...denborg-85.php

He was not only under attack from the scientific establishment but also the religious establishment of the times. In 1769 he was charged with heresy for his ideas. http://newearth.org/frontier/esheresy.html

Dean Ekebom, the ranking prelate, announced that he found Swedenborg's doctrines to be "corrupting, heretical, injurious, and in the highest degree objectionable." Although he confessed that he had not read any works other than the Apocalypse Revealed with any care, he concluded that Swedenborg's views on the nature of the Divine, the Bible, the Holy Supper, faith, and other basic teachings should be suppressed as dangerous to established religious concepts.

Swedenborg started out as a scientist but became a mystic later in his life because he began believing that scientific rationalism is limited and that higher knowledge comes from intuition, higher sources and "angelic beings"

Swedenborgs Life on other Planets; provides detailed descriptions of various extraterrestrial races, including those on the Planets of our solar-system. Skeptics point out that we`ve been to Mars, Venus, etc. and found that there is no life on them. According to Swedenborg, the life on some of these planets does not exist on the same "dimensional plane" as our earths...and may therefore remain invisible to the physical eyes.

Apart from his "futuristic visions" Swedenborg also contributed several scientific inventions and literary works of spiritual nature.

From this case we can deduce:

* The "Contactee" phenomenon did not start in the 1950s

* Just like today, both exaggerated materialism and Skepticism and religious fanaticism sought to suppress visionary exploration.

* The first sketch of a flying saucer came from someone who claimed to be in contact with extraterrestrials.

Ancient Extraterrestrials;

This thread serves to summarize the "Ancient Astronaut Theory" (AAT), also called the "Paleocontact Theory" by scientists such as Carl Sagan.
It will also examine objections against the theory and rebuttals of those objections.

Images Posted in this Opening:

AAT say that earth has been visited by ETs and/or technologically superior humans in very ancient times and that these events have been recorded as encounters with "Gods", "Flying Chariots", "Wars of Worlds" in ancient mythologies, legends and religions.

The general publics resistance against the Ancient Astronaut Theory derives from the fact that it appears to contradict two very fundamental pillars of societies belief-systems:

* Religious Creationism
* Darwinist Evolution Theory

It does not actually contradict Creationism or Evolution, but as it appears to it is met with resistance and an ongoing smear-campaign perpetuated by certain circles (I will go into this later in the thread).

It will however require us to rewrite large portions of our textbooks on religion and history...and this is why its emergence into the mainstream is moving along very slowly.

AAT is not the same by every researcher. Zecharia Sitchin (originator of the theories surrounding the Sumerian Annunaki) for example believes we were not only visited by extraterrestrials but actually created by them. Others say we were only ocassionally visited by ETs throughout history.

Another theory, that is almost unknown, even among UFOlogists is the "Mimicry-Theory" which proposes an intelligence that shows up in different forms basically "posing" according to the general belief-systems of the time. We will examine this too.

The best work on AAT today is, in my personal opinion, published by the Swiss "Ancient Astronaut Society" which unites hundreds of scientists and researchers presenting their latest findings in journals. Many of these do not make it to the bookstore although they contain true gems of AAT. Some scientists do not want them to become too popular as not to diminish their reputation in academic circles.

Some of the evidence AA-Theorists use, which we will be examining in this Thread:

1. The similarity of ancient accounts, mythologies, cults and religions from all around the world, all basically describing "Gods" that flew around, performed technical "miracles", created things, destroyed them, taught humans skills, etc. In AAT we propose that our ancestors were describing technological events they didnt have the right vocabulary for. So saying "flames came out of the flying serpent" could very well be the description of an aircraft...for example.

A good example of Global Correlation in regards to a "Goddess" I posted a while ago in this thread:

Tara - Extraterrestrial Goddess ;

In that thread we could see Goddess "Tara" showing up in Buddhism, Hinduism, with the Druids, the Cheyenne of America, South America and Polynesia.

2. Out-of-place & Out-of-time Artifacts: These are archaeological findings that contradict the conventional doctrine of ancient history and/or hint at more superior knowledge of the ancients. The book "Forbidden Archaeology" by Michael Cremo is an example of a researcher focussing on OOPA (out-of-place-artifacts).

3. Cargo-Cults: Indigenous tribes that had supposedly never been in contract with our civilization were known to mistake sailors and discoverers for “returning Gods”. This points out that these tribes had probably been visited by such “advanced Gods” at an earlier date.

4. De-Evolution. Some cultures display evidence of De-Evolution rather than progress-over-time. The best example is ancient Egypt which is known to have started at its height and descended from dynasty to dynasty instead of developing. The more mediocre the Pyramids are, the later they were found to be built! This indicates a higher level of technology in earlier times than we even have records for.

5. The Missing Evolutionary Link: AAT can provide the so-called “missing link” in Evolution-Theory. While much of Evolution Theory can be proven and demonstrated, some things are unexplained, for example just where intelligence suddenly came from. According to AAT evolution could have been influenced from outside sources, such as extraterrestrials. While this doesn’t solve the problem of where ETs got their intelligence, some scientists do believe they have found evidence for different types of “interference” within our evolutionary history.

6. The Missing Link between scientific evolution theory and religious creationism: For Science there are no Gods and for Religion the Gods were something unexplainable or almighty. AAT closes the gap between Science and Religion by saying, yes the Gods existed, but no, they are not what you think. Unfortunately neither Science nor Religion will welcome the obvious with open arms. It should be obvious to all but the mentally challenged that there can also be a Supreme Being ("Almighty God") in a Universe full of extraterrestrials and that the existence of extraterrestrials does not contradict evolution-theory in any way.

7. Mythological Accounts turning out to be true. This is where it gets interesting. One example: In my Thread The Rainbow Serpents it was shown that some of the very ancient Mythology of the Australian Aborigines concerning geological data of the way places looked ten-thousands of years ago was verified by scientists.
Therefore: Who are we to dismiss their accounts as "fiction" (which is already implied by calling their historical accounts "Mythology").

The only known stone pyramid in China is in a place called Qufu.
Any relation to the Egyptian Khufu, who is said to have built the Great Pyramid of Giza?

Aliens of Ancient China


The first time I considered in the possibility of Extraterrestrial Visitation in ancient China was when I was reading a book on Chinese Mythology;There it said that the “Gods” came out of the belly of flying Dragons. Contrary to the popular notion of the Dragons themselves being deities to worship, these references clearly implied that they are only vehicles. The image of fire-spitting, flying dragons landing and “Gods” getting out of their “belly” comes up again and again throughout Chinese Mythology. This is how our ancestors would most likely describe air- and spacecraft if they had no word for or concept of them.

Was the first Chinese Emperor an Extraterrestrial?

Huang-Di (2697-2598 B.C.) or “The Yellow Emperor” is considered to be the first emperor of China and the ancestor of all Chinese.

Chinese scholars have always argued whether Huang-Di was “real” or “mythical”. Depending on the source you can either read that he was a god-king, a mythical-king, a real king, a god-like-king, a “son of the heavens” or a half-god. I would like to suggest that the solution may lie somewhere in between: He was real but not human. We know from other ancient cultures and especially from ancient Egypt that those kings and rules that descended from the skies were referred to as “Gods” and their offspring (from relations to humans) as “half-gods”. Chinese accounts are no different in this respect.

According to legend, before Huang-Di was born there was “a radiance from the great star Chi and the Dipper Constellation (Ursa Major). His conception was marked by a “thunderclap on a clear day in the skies”. Huang-Di then begins his unification of China and is also credited with being a culture-hero, having brought traditional Chinese Medicine (including acupuncture) to the country. His wife taught the Chinese how to make silk. (this is consistent other ancient legends that also attributes a woman “who came from the skies” to have taught silk manufacture. More on this later).

He was said to live in the Kunlun-Mountains which are in the heart of Tibet. After he lived and ruled for over 100 years he is said to have prepared his “return to the skies”. Then a metallic Dragon “descended from the sky and took Huang-Di away”. Some sources say that he did not die then but lived another 200 years in the Syuan Yuan stars (the Leo Constellation).

Huang-Di is also said to have authored a book called “Bai Ze Tu” which describes 11520 types of “shapeshifters, monsters, spirits, beings” in the Universe. This book is considered lost. A book of his that was not lost is titled “Handbook on Sex” and is probably the oldest known book on Sex known to us. Some sources also cite Huang-Di as having instructed Lao Tzu…the originator of Taoism.

Of course everything involving space-travel is considered “mythical” by modern scholars. But another reason Huang-Di himself is said to be “mythical” is because he reigned prior to the Shang-Dynasty (1766 – 1122 B.C.) which is the first era that was thoroughly documented.

Seeing everything pre-Shang-Dynasty as purely “mythical” came to an abrupt halt when Chinese Archaeologists discovered evidence that the complex Chinese system of writing was already fully developed at the beginning of the Shang-Dynasty and that it indeed dates back at least to 2000 B.C.

Many ancient accounts on Huang-Di keep referring to him as an inventor or developer of odd mechanical devices. A machine called “the south pointing chariot” helped him win various battles. Another odd device which Huang-Di is supposed to have invented is what is translated as “a tripod”. This “tripod” was 4 meters in height and “100s of energies filled its inside” and made “odd noises”. According to legend this tripod depicted “dragons flying in the clouds”.

Furthermore, the tripod was set up at the “Summit Lake Mountain” (one of Chinas most famous mountains because of this legend) and “had to be pointed at the Syuan Yuan star” (our name for the brightest star in this Constellation is Regulus). This is also the star Huang-Di is said to be from. Apparently this “tripod” was also able to store data, as they say it recorded the life and times of Huang-Di.

Huang-Di’s “Dragon” is not described as some mythological creature but as a device to ascend to “the suns”, as a means of transportation and that this dragon is more than three thousand years old. The Biography of Huang-Di states that the Changhuan covers an extreme distance in only one day and that a human who “rides” it can reach and age of two thousand years. This is quite consistent with many other global myths and religious accounts of time dilation in regards to the “vehicles of the Gods”.

If these descriptions, straight from books on Chinese Mythology sound like so many other ancient accounts of Gods and Half-Gods around the globe, then its probably because there is some truth in them.

Source: Chinese Mythology

The Beginnings were more Advanced than later Periods

From Ancient Egypt we know that earlier dynasties appear to have been more advanced than later ones. Later Pyramids for example, were always less elaborate and grand as the original Pyramids of Giza. This, of course, contradicts conventional thought that supposes an upward evolution of all ancient cultures. The same type of De-Evolution can also be seen in parts of ancient South America. It can also be seen more recently in that our middle ages were in many ways less knowledgeable than their ancestors (The Greeks knew the earth was round wheras middle age doctrine said the earth is flat).

We could discount De-Evolution as an oddity, a rare anomaly…except that we also have the same thing in China.

Aliens or Ancestors? The Mysteries of Sichuan Excerpts only (for more, see linked source): http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/230480.htm

Huang Nengfu, a professor of arts and design at Tsinghua University and an eminent researcher in Chinese clothing from different dynasties, considers the garment to be the country's oldest existing dragon robe. He also thinks that the pattern is the work of the famous Shu Embroidery.

Many theories also surround the fall of the Sanxingdui civilization, which seemingly disappeared without a trace, leaving behind objects unlike anything found in any other period of Chinese history.

Archaeologists have been left wondering what the purpose of the objects was and how such an ancient culture, at the very beginning of Chinese civilization, could be so advanced.

What follows are a few other unexplained mysteries picked up while researching the topic.

The Case of Lady Dai

In 1972 three burial mounds were found, quite unexpectedly, in Changsha, South Central China. The three tombs contained all sorts of artefacts, art and mummies from the Han Dynasty (200 B.C. – 24 A.D.) One of them contained a female corpse called Lady Dai. To the archaeologists great astonishment, Lady Dai lacked the usual signs of decay.

'No one's found anything remotely equivalent to this. If she'd only been buried a year I would be amazed at how well-preserved she was.
'To think that she's been buried for 2,000 years and is in this condition is baffling.' Dr Higham said: 'This is the bestpreserved ancient body ever found.
This is something you never find even in Egypt. Tutankhamun, for example, comes out as a sort of shrivelled up little corpse compared with the extraordinary preservation of this woman.' The tomb offers several clues.

Source http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/...____of_145bc_/

All indicators – smooth skin, body fat, strong muscles – made the impression of a very fresh corpse and not one that was buried for more than 2200 years. Back then this corpse was considered a sensational find among scholars. Meanwhile it has been hushed-up, covered-up by a media-blackout – to the extent that nobody goes into detail on it. Why? Because the body was preserved by a liquid substance that indicates advanced technology. The corpse has now been deteriorating since it was excavated and exposed because we lack the technology to preserve it as the ancients did. A recent news item:

CHANGSHA: The bones of an ancient female mummy excavated from the Mawangdui Tombs in Central China more than 30 years ago, are starting to disintegrate. According to Luo Xuegang, head of the human anatomy research centre with Xiangya Medical Sciences College, the bones of the female mummy of Western Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 24) have started to decalcify. The discovery was made through a recent X-ray observation. "The decalcification might be caused by the fluids used to preserve the body being too acid. We can adjust the pH to ensure the ...
Source http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8843100.html

A General Info Source:China Daily Article http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_368631.htm

Some scientists suspect the real key to her preservation, however, may lie in the reddish liquid in which the body was immersed. If so, the secret may have died with her. Tests have revealed it is mildly acidic and contains magnesium and salt, but have so far failed to identify all the contents. ...

Source http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/...____of_145bc_/

So there you have it: Scientists have discovered a liquid that is capable of better corpse preservation than our own and they do not know what the liquid consists of.

The Qufu Mystery

This is the Tomb of the mythical chinese emperor ShaoHao located at a town/place called Qufu. Its the only known stone-pyramid in China. Whats odd about the Chinese name "Qufu" is that the ancient Egyptian Khufu is said to be the builder of the Great Pyramid of Giza (although there is not much evidence for this). I stumbled upon the name-sync by chance while surfing around for Pyramids in China. Is this just a coincidence? Or did Chinese travellers copy the name from Egypt? Or is there a more mysterious and forgotten story behind this?


Silk: An Extraterrestrial Import?

The Ancient Chinese are not the only ones to say that silk came from outer space. This is what ancient Khmer (of Cambodia) oral traditions say about the origins of silk:

Five female “superhumans” flew down from the sky to earth for no other purpose than to “have fun”. One of them Sota Chan cannot resist the Temptation and steals six good smelling twigs from a poor Chinese Peasant Loem-Sang. After the girls return home to the “heavens” God Indra is enraged by the ladies interference in human affairs and, as punishment, orders Sota Chan to spend six years on earth as Loem-Sangs wife! Sota chan reluctantly (“without hope in her heart”) returned to earth.

Surprisingly Loem-Sang is not willing to marry her so she has to persuade him to. She promises to teach him skills and arts that “nobody else here knows”. So he marries her and she teaches him how to weave and process a type of silk “not seen on earth before” and that silk is admired by all. After a year she gets pregnant and gives birth to a child which is “half human, half Demi-God”. His non-human mother gives him the name Preah Pisnokar. The first years of his life he spends eagerly drawing and painting animals, humans and geometrical figures. By the time he is five Sota Chans exile on earth is over and she flies back to the heavens.

So how do modern day scholars interpret this story? They say it "symbolically" means that the Sota Chan returned to the Chinese "Emperors Court". Its interpretations bereft of any logic or sense that make me prefer the original ancient sources over those of the modern "scientific community" sometimes. Why would anyone have to "fly" to the Emperors Court?

The Baigong Pipes

Discovered on the banks of a salt lake in the largely inaccessible and uninhabitable area of Qinghai, China the mysterious ‘Baigong Pipes’ are truly one of the great geological anomalies and OOPART discoveries in recent history. This ancient, other-worldly piping system is located in and around Mt Baigong, which itself is incongruously topped by a 60 meter ‘iron’ pyramid.

The largest example of the clearly engineered pipes can be found in one -- of three -- of what resemble ‘dug out’ caverns. The one that is still accessible has a 40 cm half-pipe that runs at an angle from the ceiling of the cave, tilting all the way to the back. Another pipe of the same exactdimensions is buried in the cave floor with only its opening revealed.

Dozens more of these iron pipe openings are located above the caves entrances.

The pipes themselves not only run in and around Mt. Baigong, as well as into the salt lake, but many smaller ones are scattered on the lakes shore in an east-west pattern; all of them perfectly round with some measuring as narrow as a toothpick. More remarkably none of them is blocked or congested by sand.

Why that is… is a geological mystery.

The site was first found in 1998 by a group of U.S. scientists who were in search of fossilized dinosaur remains. They estimated the date of the pipes at 300,000 years old. The find was reported to the Chinese government and subsequent studies have been quietly conducted, actual tests have now shown the pipe-network dates to precisely the time Huang-Di is said to have emerged from them ‘belly of a dragon’, 3000 BC:

Engineer Liu Shaolin from Xitieshan Smelting Plant who carried out the analysis says the levels of silicon dioxide and calcium oxide point to the pipes being on the mountainside for a long time - although his estimate was significantly more recent than the U.S. scientists' original theory that the iron was 300,000 years old. Liu found that it was 5000 years old; impressive, considering modern human smelting methods date back a mere 2000 years.

While often described as ‘Iron’ a 2002 analysis showed that the pipes are composed of:

“...30 per cent ferric oxide, with high content of silicon dioxide and calcium oxide; eight per cent of the sample's makeup was categorized "unidentifiable".

Link for both posts http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijin...res/Cover_UFO/

To further drive-home the extraterrestrial aspect of these pipes let’s look at the last, brief report that the Chinese government released in 2007 where geologist Zheng Jiandong states:

"There is indeed something mysterious about these pipes," he explained, "for example, the size of the pipes tends to be small and some of them are highly radioactive."

Link http://english.people.com.cn/200705/...25_378028.html

Anomalous Technology Emerges in the Neolithic China

It was recently discovered by Harvard University researchers that inhabitants of Stone Age China suddenly began using diamond to polish corundum – the second hardest mineral known to man after diamond. The earliest polished tool found thus far dates back to approximately 2500 BC a full two-thousand years before the technology was commonly considered to have been implemented.

Not only did this ability suddenly emerge, to then be lost in further evidence of devolution, but the quality of the workmanship, the high-sheen to which these tools were polished, was such that we still cannot reproduce it today.

However, even with the best modern polishing technologies available, the research team could not achieve a surface as flat and smooth as that on the ancient axe. The ancient craftsmen must have used highly sophisticated techniques.

Link http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4555235.stm

More will be posted ......to be continued.
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.

Last edited by jamesc; 26-08-2010 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 26-08-2010, 09:00 PM   #2
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The Smear-Campaign against the Ancient Astronaut Theory;

The theory started gaining ground in the late 50s and early 60s with the French Author Robert Charroux being one of the first to publish. It was first popularized on a mass-market scale by swiss author Erich von Daniken. Later popular authors were Zecharia Sitchin and Graham Hancock.



Daniken being the first who mass-popularized it was also the first to be hit hard by a smear-campaign so intense that one could easily suspect a conspiracy behind it.

The smear-campaign consisted of finding inconsistencies in his early books and branding them hoax and fraud, looking for missteps in his private life in an attempt at character assasination and publishing false and deceptive information on Danikens theories and intentions.

This campaign resulted in more than half of Danikens books not even being published in English. This is significant, because they are

a) His later books, in which inconsistencies of his early works were removed and his theory improved

b) Books in which he offered rebuttals and counter-documentation to claims made in the press and by enemies.

One such infamous case was the "Debunkers" book published by Ronald Story in the late 70s. Many dont know that Daniken published an entire book refuting Ronald Story (German Title, translated: "Evidence")

Skeptics, for example, keep citing Danikens "hoax" of the "Metal Library"http://www.philipcoppens.com/metal_libr.html in Ecuador. In fact, they repeat this case again and again, in the hope of branding him a "fraud" who's other works should not be read.

Counter-Evidence, including legal documentation and government-documents by Daniken were included in the Book with the title "Disinformed" (my translation from German)...which was not published in English, thus perpetuating the myth of Daniken having deliberately staged a hoax. More on this later.


The smear-campaign against Daniken, Sitchin and others continues to this day with false statements and manipulative speech patterns being used by self-proclaimed "Debunkers" and "Skeptics".

In taking a very close look at the objections against AAT I opened the Skeptics Dictionary, http://skepdic.com/ one of the major resources of these "Debunkers".

What follows are examples of the non-objective, unverifiable and plain stupid attacks on AAT - reflective of those that keep being repeated in the press. Quoted from the Skeptics Dictionary.

"(AAT)...is a sweeping attack on the abilities and memories of ancient peoples"

This is ironic because we feel that the "official version of history" is a sweeping attack on the memories of ancient peoples, who's mythological accounts are dismissed as "fiction".

"Danikens reply was that his deception was justified because some people would only believe if they saw proof"


This instance of Daniken joking was taken at face-value and used in several press-releases.

"The likelihood that these drawings are related to the natives religion or science is not considered"

A baseless and emotionally charged statement as I and many other researchers have considered other explanations.

“But it seems more likely that prehistoric peoples themselves were responsible for their own art, technology and culture.”

What often follows by "Debunkers" are statements such as:

"You think they were too stupid to build this stuff themselves?"

"You think Aliens built the Pyramids?"

"You are a racist"

These hysterically unobjective statements have nothing to do with what AAT is proposing. We acknowledge the possibility of advanced humans living alongside less advanced ones. We do not label less advanced humans as "stupid savages" just because they did not possess the technology of the "Gods". We are hinting that humans may have gotten some "help" in building objects such as the Pyramids...or maybe not. In any case, the "stupid savages" argument is a misrepresentation of what we are proposing.

“And why restrict one's examples to Egypt, Mexico, and other non-European countries? What about the builders of Newgrange or Stonehenge?“

Another blatant lie. Daniken and other researchers have published countless books about European sites. In fact Newgrange and Stonehenge are featured in a Daniken book called (translated from German) "The Stone Age was different".

“The ancient astronaut hypothesis is unnecessary”

One of many broad and general statements that try to suppress asking further questions.

Quoted from the same source on Zecharia Sitchin:

“(AAT is) especially attractive to those who are ignorant of biblical and historical scholarship”

Having read the Bible, the Koran and the Talmud, among many other things, I am not going to let a Debunker tell me I am ignorant of the bible or history. And Im sure Sitchin himself is not ignorant of ancient scripture.

“He has received nothing but ridicule from scientific archaeologists”

“Sitchin's ideas have been appropriated by Raël, another wise man, who has started his own religion”

Many statements made by debunkers do not address the evidence brought forward, but are made to make attack the person, to make the researcher look like a lunatic. No serious AAT researcher considers the Rael cult a serious source of information.

Taken from other Debunkers sources on the Internet:

“(Daniken) was by no means the first to propose it (AAT)”. “He was not the first fringe writer to adopt this stance”

Yes, and so what? I wonder why so many debunkers ramble on about him not being the first to propose AAT.

“Chariots of the Gods?, published in 1967 after no fewer than twenty-two rejections, became a worldwide bestseller”

And the rejections are supposed to prove what?

“made him wealthy through the sale of over sixty million copies of his books.”

The AAT authors most attacked are those who actually make some money with their research. As they often make more money than "respectable scholars", it is understandable that jealousy would arise.

“The most convincing piece of evidence he has ever produced is the cover slab of the tomb of the Lord Pacal in the Pyramid of the Inscriptions at Palenque, weak stuff though it is.”

Unfortunately, Skeptics keep referring to Danikens oldest books from the early 70s and late 60s with hardly any mention of his works from the 80s, 90s and 2000s.
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 26-08-2010, 09:04 PM   #3
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An Extra-Terrestrial Timeline;

UFO sightings have been documented throughout human history. Here is a small history of E.T. and UFOs throughout history:

45,000b.c.: China; Rock carving have been found of UFO-like objects in the Hunan Province. The carvings date to the Neanderthals.

4,000b.c.: According to Sumerian texts they had contact with E.T.s in modern day Iraq. Texts reveal interbreeding with humans and taking them to the stars. Sumerian text coincides with "The Book of Genesis". They had highly developed astronomy and numbers with 15 digits. According to texts e.t.s are from Mars, Pleiades, and Sirius.

2,000b.c.: Pre-Incan civilization records the Gods as being from Pleiades. Ruins found as high as 13,000ft and and stones weighing as much as 20,000tons have been discovered. They also knew the Earth was round.

593b.c.: Ezekiel has what many consider to be an e.t. encounter. Josef Blumrich, former chief of systems layout NASA, set out to disprove the claims. However, from a careful analysis of the data available he concluded that the vehicle described in the Bible was actually a U.F.O.

223b.c. Rome: "At Arminium a bright light like the day blazed out at night; in many portions of Italy three moons became visible at night" Dio Cassius, Roman History, Book I

170b.c.: Conradt Wolfhart, Lycothenes, a medieval writer, reports "A remarkable spectacle of a fleet of ships was seen in the air at Lanupium"

9b.c. Japan, Kyushu: Nine moons were seen in the sky over the community.

400 Egypt, Pondoru, an Egyptian monk wrote: "From the creation of Adam indeed down to Enoch and to the general cosmic year 1,282, the number of days was known niether in month nor year but Egregori (Watchers or Angels) decended to Earth in the general cosmicm year 1,000, held converse with men and taught them that the orbit of the two luminaries being marked by the 12 signs of the Zodiac are composed of 360 parts."

643 Japan: "Five colored banners and umbrellas hung in the sky over the temple to the sound of various music"

747 China: Huge flame-breathing dragons were reported seen in the skies, accompanied by men in airships.

748 England: Ships were seen in the air with their men.

800 Peru: A theoretical date for the mass carvings known as the Nazca lines that resemble landing strips in the Peruvian Andes

1015 Japan: Two objects were seen "Giving birth" to smaller luminous spheres over Japan

1133 Japan: A large, silvery disc is reportd to have come close to the ground.

1180 Japan, Kii Province: A term similiar to our "Flying saucer" was used by the Japanese 700yrs. before it came into use in the west. Ancient documents describe a flying "Earthenware Vessel." The object which had been heading northeast changed its direction disappearing below the horizon, leaving a luminous trail.

1332 England, Uxbridge: There was seen in the sky a pillar of fire the size of a small boat, pallid and livid in colour. It rose from the south and crossed the sky and then went north. Its speed increased as it went through the air.

1347 Europe, Black Plaque, 1347-50: Reports from this period feature strange cigar-like objects flying low through the sky and dispensing noxiuos mists. Soon after these objects would pass by plague would break out in the area. Other reports contain sightings of MIB-like, scythe wielding "reapers" clad in black hoods and robes, mysterously slaughtering cattle and other animals.

1492: While standing on the deck of the Santa Maria, C. Columbus and P. Gutierrez witnessed a "Glimmering light at a great disance." It vanished and reappeared several times through the night. It was sighted 4hrs before land was sighted and taken by Columbus as a sign that they would soon come to land travel by aerial vessels.

1577 Germany: "Objects came out of the clouds resembling large, tall, and wide hats and they landed in great numbers and in a variety of colours." Pierre Boaistuan

1643: "I must not forget what amazed us exceedingly the night before, namely, a shining cloud in the sky resembling a sword, the point reaching to the north. It was as bright as the moon, the rest of the sky being very serene. It began at about 11p and vanished not until about 1a, being seen by all the south of England." John Evelyn

1680 France: The government issues a commemorative coin of a UFO sighting.

1700 USA: There is an 18th century native legend about luminous humanoid beings who paralyzed people using a small tube. In variations of the tale, Native women were said to have married the beings.

1752 Switzerland: Bright shapes were seen coming out of a bright cylinder.

1833 Canada: A large square shaped, luminous object was seen for more than an hour over Niagra Falls.

1842 Soviet Union, Orenburg: Small metal shapes perfectly hexagonal, fell out of the sky after a "strange cloud" appeared.

1860 Shreveport, Louisiana, USA: "Our attention was called to a strange light in the heavens. On going out into the gallery we had a magnificent view of it. It appeared to the naked eye, about 300yds in length, extending from north to west extending just above the tallest trees.

Its colour was that of a red hot stove from the center beautiful rays resembling those of the sun drawing water would ascend to a considerable height, the whole presenting a very beautiful and sublime sight. We watched it for about an hour without perceiving it to change any."

1874 Oaxaca, Mexico: Residents saw a huge trumpet shaped, swaying object, estimated to be 425ft long hovering in the sky for six minutes.

1879 Persian Gulf: The S.S. Vulture crew reported, two luminous, rotating wheels, about 130ft across, seen above the water before diving.

1947 Roswell, New Mexico: I think we all know how this goes. Disproved by the government that it was a crashed weather balloon. Proved by witnesses that it wasn't.

1997 Phoenix, Arizona: Several strange lights appear in the sky and seem to move slowly. Reported that they are only military flares. Thousands of witnesses, including the Mayor of Phoenix at the time, claim they saw a V-shaped flying object that was enormous in size, up to a mile wide.

There are hundreds more accounts of UFOs ove the years. Hard to believe, after looking at the evidence, that anyone could discount the history and validity of such claims. Post other know UFO events here if you wish.
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 27-08-2010, 06:28 AM   #4
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Cool thread. thanks Jamesc. <3
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into a state of inability to identify the real perpetrators.” ~Quote from my upcoming book
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Old 27-08-2010, 08:17 AM   #5
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UFO's since 1870;

Theres a website out there called UFO casebook, and under its photo section they have pictures of vintage UFO's, the oldest dating from 1870 in mount washington. This kind of sighting is not new, and this picture was cigar shape. 1870. We can rule out many things if go far back enough- jets, chinese lanterns- things that didn't (or wouldn't be on the top of mount washington) in 1870.

The next is claimed to be from 1927. What is odd is it has the 'retro' pictures of UFO's all have retro looking spaceships, and that could suggest that, indeed, it is the goverment testing craft, because we have seen the style of ufo's change.
It is just a thought, I dunno.
Here is the picture.

I personally love this one, because it is written on, giving it more credibilty. Here below is the story behind it.

source quote;
"This photo was taken by my father Edward Pline at the sawmill in Ward where we lived at the time. I think it was 1929. I was about six years old then. My father was there to photograph the sawmill for some reason or another, and as he was taking the photo, he described a 'terrible thunderous bellow,' and a large round thing as big as a very large boulder that moved through the air above them.

You can see it in the picture. None of the sawmill workers saw the thing in the photo, but they all heard the sound and felt the ground shudder. Later in my life I tried researching the incident at the County Historical Society, but I did not find any references to it. My father passed on a few years after the incident, and I have not found any surviving sawmill workers from that time."
The photo:

The link to the website is here.
If you find one that you find interesting, post it here.
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 27-08-2010, 08:48 AM   #6
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1897-UFO Crash at Aurora, Texas;

I have been a long time believer in ET's visiting our planet from the dawn of life on this planet. I have read many obscure and intriguing articles/book's pertaining to this event taking place and for the evidence's there of for this actually having occurred. Though there seem's to be little 'Verifiable Physical Evidence', there seem's to me that , before the time of mass media, thing's of this nature were occurring in some of the most oddest and unexpected location's with in the USA that were recorded for prosperity by the alledged witnesses of those times.

The problem there being the 'Cataloging Record's of thier day was paper and pencil. Though there was 'cataloging' of the instance of this thread, it has twist's and turn's that leave me completely bewildered for the change of event's (And hearts) that took place in Aurora Texas back in 1897. The 'Cataloging' of this event was documented, the stories followed generation's of families from the vacinity and all are willing to 'somewhat' openly discyss the tail's of there recent ancestor's, even to go as far as telling the story of an 'Alien' being buried in thier town cemetary in an unmarked grave, only recognizable by the 'Iconic' rock that was left in place of where the alien body was buried.

There was a show that was televised by the History channel about Aurora Texas and I was lucky enough to be able to watch the documentation of what the UFOoligists and other interested parties were trying to do as the investigation took place. The story itself is very enticing, but the out come of the televised show was not expected.

Aurora's History: Aurora's History: Because of ever changing railroad lines, and Texas highways, it is a miracle that the small town of Aurora, Texas is still there. And not only that, but it is a legendary "historical site" as designated by the state of Texas. Why would a small farming community get such a distinction? One reason-an alien spacecraft crashed there in 1897. At least that's what the residents say, and what the newspaper reports claimed.

Now, while the show was unravelling these alledged claims, it turn's out that the area where the UFO had unexplainedly crashed was still situated in the town of Aurora. Even some of the relatives of thier family member's relatives still settled on the same areas where the event had taken place, with wittnesses from neighbor's , to a small boy doing his daily chore's.

To me it is a 'Great Sighting' for possible physical evidence's that are so badly needed to disclose the truth of other 'Being's' visiting our planet and routinely (Though not often) that thier technology sometimes has flaws in out come as we do here on earth with science/technology ect. Billy Booth, who is the invesigator for the validity of the event taking place had got a very positive response, 'at the beginning', and ventured to the area/site of the crash with the guidence of the eyewitness report's of the day.

The Crash: These early ships were slow moving craft, and so was the one that crashed into an Aurora windmill on April 19. According to the legend, the craft was destroyed, and the remains of an alien pilot were discovered among the remains. Also found among the scattered debris was a strange material with hieroglyphic-type etching. The alien creature was given a proper burial in the one and only cemetery in town. The alien body has long since disappeared.

It goes farther into detailed account's of the 'Alien' wittnesses and to the debris debris field itself describing in very great detail form the chain of event's before the crash and what took place afterwards.

Local Newspaper Coverage: Local newspapers carried this story;
About 6 o'clock this morning the early risers of Aurora were astonished at the sudden appearance of the airship which has been sailing around the country. It was traveling due north and much nearer the earth than before. Evidently some of the machinery was out of order, for it was making a speed of only ten or twelve miles an hour, and gradually settling toward the earth.

With out the advent of acknowledging such thing's as "UFO's" thier discription's would of been rather mundane and very simple to as what they were seeing, kitty hawk hadn't been and the Golfier's invention would of benn recognizable for thier 'Hotair balloon" for that day and age. so, if the discription in the above mentioned article sound's 'Simple', to me that is what one would expect from a community with no word's to fit the event.

There were other press involved with the sighting from all over the states, UPI was one of those publicizing the story and getting out to more people from around the states.

UPI Coverage:
"Aurora, Tex. -- (UPI) -- A grave in a small north Texas cemetery contains the body of an 1897 astronaut who was 'not an inhabitant of this world,' according to the International UFO Bureau. The group, which investigates unidentified flying objects, has already initiated legal proceedings to exhume the body and will go to court if necessary to open the grave, director Hayden Hewes said Wednesday."

UPI even took the initiative to take it a step farther by announcing it was a 'Government Cover up' with the following statements made in thier publication's.

Not of this World: UPI also picked up the story, and the legend was spread far beyond the borders of Texas. There were a number of eyewitness accounts of the incident later published, and they all agreed with the basic facts. An unknown craft had crashed into the town, strange debris was found, and a being "not of this world" was found in the wreckage. One intriguing account, although second-hand, came from a 15-year-old girl. Her parents had visited the site, and claimed that the alien pilot was a "small man."

Military Cover-up: There is also evidence of a military cover-up. Soon after the crash, military personnel came to Aurora. Could they have been responsible for the removal of the alien body? For a time, there was a headstone for the body, but even it has disappeared. All that remains are photographs of the headstone.

I have gone to the archives and tried digging up anything on this event and found the info i have posted.here http://ufos.about.com/od/bestufocrashcases/p/aurora.htm

But, just as with any good eye wittness account's and people of the tales of the event from relation's pasted down, it is always the saddess thing for us alien/ufo believer's when we have to end on a note of possibility, for instance:

Staying Afloat: For the time period, news of this event was spread wide and far. Many new visitors made their way to the little town to see what all the gossip was about. Second and third hand stories would soon morph into eye witness accounts. Where the information came from that supplied newspaper accounts is anyone's guess.

Record keeping of the time and era were not as well as we have it today, but with a true belief in the absolutely practical assumption's with out physical proof, "This incident as real they come."

There have been, at times, lobbying to dig up the alien grave, and see what evidence may remain. But townsfolk have kept this from happening. What excitement would run through UFO circles if alien DNA was found there. Maybe it is best to leave the grave alone, and let the Aurora mystery remain.

It is my belief that by studying cases back in time of UFO sightings or cases that possibly contain references to unexplained aerial anomalies or even when there was no planes ect invented yet is the diamond in providing possible evidence of ET visitations.The way the media was run ,most peoples reactions and descriptions are so much more believable because they told the truth and reacted in the only way the new, tell it like it was.They were not exposed to any SCI FICTION on UFOs ect.

OK there was no CIA or UFO cover up organisations back then but there was possibly some military or higher governmental involvement pertaining to a possible cover up, just like there was none BEFORE the ROSWELL crash , so the witnesses had no real fear of ridicule or character assassinations or prison for not keeping silent on what they witnessed.These National Security organisations, like the NSA and the CIA only came about AFTER the ROSWELL CRASH.

Then the whole perception and complexities of the way witness were manipulated or told to keep silent and backed up more vigorously by the evolving main stream media's manipulative reporting from experienced military personnel and citizens changed suddenly to berating any one who reported a UFO sighting.
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 27-08-2010, 09:06 AM   #7
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UFO Incidents of The 1940’s;

The Mantell UFO Incident;

Image of artist depiction courtesy of http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/ind...num=1186328246

Hynek Classification:CE2; http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1552.htm

“The Mantell UFO Incident”, this is what is referred to by many as the first death caused by a UFO. This is not the only case of military and UFO engagements, but it is the case with the most evidence. This case was investigated by Project Sign, the predecessor to Project

Bluebook. The official explanation from the United States Air Force is still listed as “undetermined”, however the USAF has stated other times in other documents that Mantell died while chasing a balloon. Many speculations fly as to exactly what Captain Mantell was chasing and what caused him to crash, was it Venus?http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2...ximumvenus.htm Was it a Skyhook Balloon? Or was it something more, something otherworldly?

Maybe the more important question is if it was an extraterrestrial craft did “they” cause Mantell to crash, or was it incidental and simply the outcome of a primitive aircraft trying to perform with a super-advanced interstellar spacecraft? I know this has been discussed on here before, but it has not been discussed or presented in any great comprehensive detail. With this being one of the best UFO-aircraft encounter incidents I feel it deserves this much more comprehensive presentation.

Chapter Summary;

1. Overview of Captain Thomas F. Mantell
2. The Encounter and Crash
3. The Ensuing Investigation
4. Alternate Explanations
5. USAF Conclusions and My Research
6. Final Conclusions

1. Overview of Captain Thomas F. Mantell

Image of Captain Thomas Mantell courtesy of http://www.ufocasebook.com/Mantell.html

• Born in Franklin, Kentucky June 30, 1922, full name is Thomas Francis Mantell Jr.
• He was not the only child.
• Graduated from Male High School in Louisville Kentucky.
• Joined Army Air Corps on June 16, 1942.
• Graduated from Flight School June 30, 1943.
• Served in World War Two and was assigned to the 440th Troop Carrier Group, 96th Troop Carrier Squadron, and 9th Air Force.
• Was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross and and Air Medal with 3OLCs for heroism.
• Following the war he returned to Louisville and joined the newly formed Kentucky Air National Guard on February 16th, 1947.
• Was appointed Flight Leader “C” of the 165th Fighter Squad.
• He became the first casualty of the Kentucky Air National Guard when he died in a plane crash chasing a UFO on January 7th, 1948.
• His remains were moved to Louisville and buried at Zachary Taylor National Cemetery.
• On September 29th, 2001 the Simpson County Historical Society placed an historical marker in honor of Mantell at the Franklin, Kentucky exit off Interstate 65 next to the Simpson County Tourism building.

Image of marker courtesy of img.http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarkin...18804cecd9.jpg

An experienced pilot in the Air National Guard with 2,167 flight hours and a veteran of World War Two who took part of the Battle of Normandy, Mantell was not one who was ignorant of simple sky phenomina and the dangers involved in air travel. He also was not one that would chase Venus or a balloon and risk his life doing so. With those many flight hours and battle experience it is hard to believe that he would take great care to knowingly push is plane to the limit to observe something nominal and average. In any event we must remember that on this day in 1948 a fellow human and soldier lost his life, a very tragic event for his family and friends.

2.The Encounter and Crash
The UFO Is Spotted

Map showing location of Fort Knox, Kentucky depicted by black dot

On the day of January 7th, 1948 at approximately 1:20 PM due to several witnesses on the ground in Owensboro,Irvington, and Maysville (which was only 80 miles East) Kentucky making calls to the Kentucky State Police of a “large, circular, metallic object of 250-300 feet (91 meters) in diameter following a westbound path” and the crafts near proximity to the Gold Reserve at Fort Knox the state police notified Godman Airfield, which was the airfield serving Fort Knox. Godman asked Wright Field in Ohio if they had any aircraft in the air, which they didn’t.

At around 1:45 PM Sgt. Quinton Blackwell and two other witnesses saw an object from where he was at inside the Fort Knox Airfield Control Tower. They also stated the object was changing from reddish color to white in some pattern. Base Commander Colonel Guy Hix reported a “very large, white, umbrella shaped object about one fourth the size of the Moon (from his perspective, not literally!).” He also stated that “through the binoculars it appeared to have a red or pink border at the bottom and remained stationary for seemingly one and one half hours.”

Four P-51 Mustangs, already in the air on their way to Standiford Air Field in northern Kentucky were called to investigate. They were lead by Captain Thomas Mantell.

Image of vintage Kentucky Air National Guard P-51 Mustang courtesy of
The Chase Begins

The Three Persons involved in the chase:
• Captain Thomas Mantell
• Lieutenant Albert Clemmons (Right wingman, only one with an oxygen mask, but it ran out,turned back at 22,500 feet)
• 2nd Lieutenant B.A. Hammond (Left wingman,also turned back at 22,500 feet)
• NOTE: The fourth pilot continued on to his destination due to lack of fuel and is not relevant.

In constant radio contact the whole time, Sgt. Blackwell ordered the Mustangs’ to intercept the unknown craft. One pilot had to quickly turn back as he was low on fuel. The three remaining planes continued on the intercept course. The two other pilots (other than Mantell) reported making visual contact with the object but said it was so small and far away they couldn’t identify it, this is possibly because the crafts altitude at the time was likely around 30,000 feet, which at the time before http://%20%3Ca%20href%3D/ " target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">pressurized cabins was a unreachable altitude, at least a very dangerous and ill advised altitude to try to attain.

The craft were in a steep climb and the other pilots suggested they level altitude and try to get a better visual of the craft, Mantell ignored his comrades advice; this was his first mistake.

Only one of Mantells’ companions, Lt. Albert Clemmons, had an oxygen mask available, which was nessicary to war in the low oxygen environment of 20,000 feet and above. Lt. Clemmons and Lt. Hammons called off their pursuit at 22,500 feet and returned to base. Mantell however, continued climbing to 30,000 feet.

Anyone who knows anything about air flight and the atmosphere will tell you that without an oxygen mask or pressurized cabin (which wasn’t available at the time) you will black out fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoxia_(medical)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoxia_(medical) because the oxygen concentration levels are less at higher altitudes.

This was Mantells’ second and fatal mistake. As best we know he blacked out from Hypoixa at around 30,000 feet, his plane then proceeded to plummet back down to Earth and crash at approximately 3:18 PM, at least that is the time his watched stopped. Before this though there was some very interesting observations made by Mantell as he briefly did catch up to the craft.

The following is the reported actual radio communication transcript from the incident. All of the communications were not transcripted, or at least made public as an officer listening in Illinois made some stunning revelations, as we will see.

The following is quoted from the available transcripts I found:

"Godman Tower Calling the flight of 4 ships northbound over Godman Field. Do you read? Over.

[Pause] Godman Tower Calling the flight of 4 ships northbound over Godman Field. Do you read? Over."

"Roger, Godman Tower. This is National Guard 869, Flight Leader of the formation. Over."

"National Guard 869 from Godman Tower. We have an object out south of Godman here that we are unable to identify, and we would like to know if you have gas enough; and if so could you take a look for us if you will."

"Roger, I have the gas and I will take a look for you if you give me the correct heading.”
"The object is directly ahead of and above me now, moving at about half my speed...It appears to be a metallic object or possibly reflection of Sun from a metallic object, and it is of tremendous size... I'm still climbing... I'm trying to close in for a better look."

To be continued........
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 27-08-2010, 02:28 PM   #8
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Now here is the interesting part that I mentioned above, this is a statement from USAF officer Richard Miller:

Richard T. Miller, who was in the Operations Room of Scott Air Force Base in Belleville, Illinois also made several profound statements regarding the crash. He was monitoring the radio talk between Mantell and Godman tower, and heard this statement very clearly.

"My God, I see people in this thing!" Miller added that on the morning after the crash, at a briefing, investigators had stated that Mantell died "pursuing an intelligently controlled unidentified flying object." In conclusion, Miller made this statement, "that evening, Air Technical Intelligence Center officers from Wright-Patterson AFB arrived and ordered all personnel to turn over any materials relating to the crash.

"Then, after we had turned it over to them, they said they had already completed the investigation." "I was no longer a skeptic. I had been up to that time. Now I wondered why the Government had gone to all of the trouble of covering it up, to keep it away from the press and the public."

Very interesting indeed, I see no reason for an officer of the USAF to lie about something like that. Is it true that Mantell actually saw “people in there”, he was the only one at that altitude as his other companions turned back at 22,500 feet. We all know what happened next.

Now this from Captain James F. Duesler:

"The wings and tail section had broken off on impact with the ground and were a short distance from the plane," he recalled. "There was no damage to the surrounding trees and it was obvious that there had been no forward or sideways motion when the plane had come down. It just appeared to have "belly flopped" into the clearing.

There was very little damaged to the fuselage, which was in one piece, and no signs of blood whatsoever in the cockpit. There was no scratching on the body of the fuselage to indicate any forward movement and the propeller blade bore no telltale scratch marks to show it had been rotating at the time of impact, and one blade had been embedded into the ground. The damage pattern was not consistent with an aircraft of this type crashing at high speed into the ground.

This observation could easily be interpreted as the plane crashed due to hostile actions, something like a force field bringing it down. But lets not assume that, it is only my speculation. Although the UFO left the area by about 3:50 PM it was later reported by multiple witnesses in Tennessee.

3. The Ensuing Investigation

Okay, here is where we are at so far, I know this is a lot of information to digest in the first read.

1. Circular, Umbrella shaped UFO spotted near Fort Knox, Kentucky.

2. Four P-51 Mustangs sent to intercept and investigate, only three were able to.

3. Two of the three aircraft turned back at 22,500 feet due to safety reasons. They were only able to see something far off in the distance.

4. Captain Mantell continued to increase altitude despite knowing it was dangerous, obviously he saw something he thought was worthy of the risk. Mantell reached between 28-30,000 feet and got an excellent view of the craft. All we know for sure is he said it was large, circular, and metallic. It is rumored he also said he saw “people” inside the craft.

5. Shortly after this he blacked out(due to Hypoxia as described above) or was shot down (less likely, but still possible) and his plane fell back to the Earth killing him.

Alright, we are caught up now. The ensuing investigation and witness statements are what I will be sharing next.

The Initial Investigation

45 minutes after engaging in the pursuit Captain Mantell was dead, still strapped in his aircraft but dead from the extreme forces involved from crashing 30,000 feet back down to Earth near a farm south of Franklin, Kentucky just near the Tennessee-Kentucky border . His watch stopped at 3:18 PM so we can assume that was his time of death as well. The plane was heavily damaged as one would expect. Here are some pictures of the crash….

Courtesy of http://www.ufocasebook.com/Mantell.html

Courtesy of http://www.ufologie.net/htm/mantell48.htm

Courtesy of nicap.org/Bluebookarchives

Courtesy of nicap.org/Bluebookarchives

Now let us look at the final USAF conclusion and some of the witness testimony of the UFO and the crash of Mantells’ plane.

Official Air Force Conclusion: Captain Thomas Mantell lost consciousness and therefore lost control of his aircraft while pursuing an unknown flying object at high altitude.

Some witness statements surrounding the event:

Glen Mays, who lived near Franklin, KY stated categorically that Mantell's plane exploded in mid-air." The plane circled three times, like the pilot didn’t know where he was going," reported Mays, "and then started down into a dive from about 20,000 feet. About halfway down there was a terrific explosion." Then again, there is the testimony of Godman Base Commander Guy F. Hix, who stated to reporters that he observed the craft for almost an hour through binoculars. He would not have confused what he saw with the planet Venus.


In more recent years, additional information has come forward. Captain James F. Duesler, who was one of several military officers at Godman, was retired and living in England. In 1997, he stated that he and several other officers actually saw the gigantic UFO hovering over Godman field that day. Duesler, who was a pilot and crash investigator, stated, "the UFO was a strange gray-looking object, which looked like a rotating inverted ice cream cone."

The report adds that no official transcription of the conversation has been recorded. However, later, the airmen present in the control tower at the time of the incident were interrogated.

Their declarations put together generated this version of the flight that cost the Captain's life. At approximately 02:45pm, Mantell stated that he saw the unidentified object "directly ahead and above me and flying at a speed twice less than mine". He continued: "It seems made out of metal and terribly large... it makes me think of the reflection of the sun on the transparent canopy of an airplane."

A P-51 fighter aircraft of the Army exploded in full sky and crashed on Joe Phillips's farm at approximately 5 miles in the south of Franklin yesterday afternoon towards 03:30 pm, killing the pilot, identified as being Thomas F. Mantell, 3533 River Park Drive, Louisville. The plane's identification was Ky. NG 869.

Mrs. Joe Phillips said she was sitting at the fireplace when she heard the plane, with its engine seemingly at difficulty, flying close to the house. Almost at once there was a great explosion. Surprised, she looked though the window and saw the disintegrated aircraft strike the ground in a wooden area at approximately 200 yards of her house.

Pieces of the aircraft were found within a quarter of mile of the point of impact. Several Franklin people declared they have heard the explosion.

A vapor column still floated in the sky one hour after the crash.

Another eyewitness, Barbara Mayes, a student in Franklin said she saw the aircraft exploding as it was high in the sky. She waited for the bus that would bring her back home from the Lake Springs college when she saw the explosion.

This directly from the Air Force investigation Project Bluebook…

"... based on unpublished reports assembled at the Wright-Patterson Air Force base. The Air Force investigation has proved that the flying saucers "are not a joke." Neither are they a cause for alarm to the population."

"a report on new files at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base lists 240 domestic and 30 foreign accounts of flying discs as having been investigated. Of these 30 per cent seem to have been weather balloons and the like and 30 per cent more are perhaps explainable conventionally-leaving 40 per cent unexplained."

"The Air Force recently said there was no evidence that the discs were guided missiles fired from some other country, but that on the other hand it was not impossible that they were. Later the Air Force announced it was not making any further comments on the discs: "We can't prove or disprove the existence of some of the remaining unidentified objects as real aircraft of unconventional design. The possibility that the saucers (the rest is illegible)"


To be continued.....
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 27-08-2010, 02:50 PM   #9
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The Mantell UFO Incident;part 11;

Here are some more links to notable witness accounts:
• Mantell Incident Statements http://www.nicap.org/docs/mantell/Ma...Statements.htm
• Statement by Captain Carter http://www.nicap.org/docs/mantell/ma...0107docs20.htm
• Statement by Lt. Paul Orner http://www.nicap.org/docs/mantell/ma...0107docs33.htm
• Statement by Col. Guy Hix http://www.nicap.org/docs/mantell/ma...0107docs33.htm
• Direct link to Mantell directory http://www.nicap.org/mantelldir.htm

4. Alternate Explanations

Inexperience with P-51?

This explanation could be used as a secondary explanation to the crash but not as the primary. This does not account for the visual confirmation of the actual object.


Courtesy of professor-astronomy.com http://www.professor-astronomy.com/i...us_sunrise.jpg

This is more possible but still not likely as the astronomical reports state that Venus would not have been observable at this time. Not to mention the fact that it is highly unlikely that multiple trained military personal would confuse the planet Venus with a UFO.

The Mantell Crash was quickly investigated by Project Sign, the Air Force's new research group which had been created to study UFO incidents. Though Project Sign's staff never came to a conclusion, other Air Force investigators ruled that Mantell had misidentified the planet Venus, and, wrongly believing that he could close in to get a better look, had passed out from the lack of oxygen at high altitude.

However, this conclusion was later changed, because although Venus was roughly in the same position as the UFO, astronomers working for Project Sign ruled that Venus would have been nearly invisible to observers at that time of day. The cause of Mantell's crash remains officially listed as undetermined by the Air Force.

A Skyhook Balloon?

Courtesy of
Again possible, but not likely. It is note worthy to say that this was a top secret Navy project and no one at the airbase would have known of it. It also can somewhat fit the description of the craft. The Skyhook balloon was about 100 feet in diameter and metallic in color. This however does not account for the remaining size discrepancy nor the color changing of the craft. Also it does not account for the people observed in the craft or the large umbrella shape of the craft. Although it is true that Skyhook balloons were launched on January 7th in Clinton County, Ohio the fact is they were 150 miles northeast of the base. This has been disputed as other investigations show that no balloon was launched on that day. Also I highly doubt that even without knowledge of the balloons experienced military officers and pilots would have mistaken any form of balloon for a unknown craft. As you saw in the picture above it obviously looks like a balloon. This is however the most likely alternate explanation. Even though the USAF could not (lol) locate any records of any balloons being launched on that day they still maintain this as true.

New Information comes to light…

Updated: 24 August 2007:
In March of 2006, Drew Speier* of WFIE TV in Evansville, Indiana, asked me to help them produce a segment on the Mantell incident for Channel 14. I advised him that there were much better UFO cases and that there was considerable controversy surrounding the case. In hopes of doing other, much better segments in the future, I consented to do the show for the May showing. The show aired on May 23 (transcript). Our thanks to Mr. Speier and WFIE, as we re-opened the case and found some surprising new information. An update by WFIE was "filmed" on June 28th and shown on the 26th of July (transcript).

Several official documents indicate that the Skyhook balloon theory does not work.

1) Skyhook balloons were NOT classified; their missions were. A Popular Science article released only a few months later in May of 1948 proves this. But three years later the Navy made the ridiculous debunking claim in 1951 that secret Skyhooks explained all the "reliable" reports.
2) A "restricted" document shows that Kentucky State Police and callers described an object as "250-300 feet in diameter and moving at a pretty good clip" which later evidence proved was definitely not a Skyhook. The location of the Skyhook south of Nashville was confirmed in another restricted document mentioning world renowned astronomer, Dr. Carl Seyfert, discoverer of the "Seyfert galaxies," among other observers and is in both AF files and news reports. Columbia, Tennessee observers saw it to the north at about the same time as Seyfert and Nashville witnesses, and this brackets the Skyhook's location in the middle about 150 miles from Godman Field and impossible as a stimulus for the primary cases. Incidentally, the Popular Science article even shows the Skyhook launched on January 6th!!! Three other sets of restricted or confidential documents describe an object 250-300' in diameter and much closer. For details see USAF-SIGN1 280, USAF-SIGN1-376, and MAXW-PBB3 680-681.

Accident report documents (and others) are also allowing us to construct an accurate flight timetable for the Mantell chase and it apparently proves that all the previous scenarios of what happened are wrong, simply because Mantell's wingmen lied about it afterward to cover up their complicity in flying too high without oxygen.


Link to Skyhook launch charts http://www.ufocentral.org/greenwood/mantell/

5.USAF Conclusions and My Research

To re-hash what I stated earlier the first official explanation from the USAF by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt was that Mantell lost consciousness while pursuing an unknown object, and thus crashed. This was later changed to a more conventional “balloon theory” (sound familiar?)Here are some interesting contradictions.

• The first team to investigate were from the USAF Project Sign(which later became Bluebook), they stated that Mantell mistook Venus for a UFO. We now know that is not true as Venus could not have been seen at that time.

• After the embarrassment of the Venus explanation the USAF found another explanation, that was the Skyhook Balloon. Although there were conflicting accounts of any balloons being launched that day. A lot of researchers believe this was simply a convenient cover story, like Project Mogul was for Roswell.

• It is interesting to note that the final official report from the USAF was that Mantell was mistakenly chasing a balloon and blacked out due to Hypoxia. The Project Bluebook report was that the object and cause of the crash was unknown. But it was speculated that the crash was caused from pilot Hypoxia, the object still remains unknown.

In 1956, USAF Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, the supervisor of the Air Force's Project Blue Book study into the UFO mystery, would write that the Mantell Crash was one of three "classic" UFO cases in 1948 that would help to define the UFO phenomenon in the public mind, and would help to convince Air Force intelligence specialists that UFOs were a "real", physical phenomenon.

But yet he reverses his statement later and becomes one of the prime proponents of the balloon theory? Again doesn’t this sound familiar(Roswell in case you haven’t figured out already)?

• We have a source who worked with the Skyhook project say that no balloons were launched from Clinton County, Ohio until July 9th, 1952.

• We are left with the fact that the nearest point of origin for a Skyhook was Camp Ripley, Minnesota.

• At an average drift speed of 18-25 MPH it is possible that a balloon could travel the 750 miles to Fort Knox with an 8 AM launch on the day prior to the sightings.
• It is possible if you plot a course from Camp Ripley to Fort Knox to believe that indeed it could have been a simple balloon,however one must take into account the fact that the craft was seen moving westward at times, this is in the wrong direction if the southeastern path is to be taken into account. This could be due to witness mistakes or changes in local wind direction. What about the stationary path reported at 1:45 PM by ground personal? This could be due to localized drift variations, although those are more common in the Summer months. Another aspect to take into account is that Mantell stated the object moving at around 180 MPH, that is not acceptable for a balloon theory.

• Also what is not acceptable is the “time warp” as I call it (copyrighted,lol) where the object was spotted in Columbia, Tennessee(which is 50 miles south of Nashville) BEFORE it was spotted in Nashville! That is not possible if you believe the southeast track of Skyhook to be true. Was there TWO CRAFT, one Skyhook and the other something else?

Air Force Captain Edward J. Ruppelt (the first head of Project Blue Book) notes that there was some disagreement amongst the air traffic controllers as to Mantell's words as he communicated with the tower: some sources reported that Mantell had described an object "which looks metallic and of tremendous size," but others disputed whether or not Mantell actually said this.

Timeline of Events

1:20PM CST: Godman tower informed, other sightings continue west of Fort Knox near Irvington and Owensboro.

1:45PM CST: Multiple ground witnesses at Godman base report object, visuals range from a “ice cream cone shaped object topped with red” to “like an umbrella with red changing from top to bottom.”

2:45PM CST: Mantell told to intercept, makes visual with object. Godman says the object “dwarfs the size of the planes”. Mantell continues persuit while other planes abandon. States object matches or exceeds his speed.

3:18PM CST: Mantell crashes and dies.

3:20PM CST: Third shift takes over at base and is told they are pursuing a “disc, balloon, or strange object”.

4:05PM CST: Mantells comrades re take flight after refueling not knowing he had crashed.

4:30PM CST: Vanderbilt University astronomer sees an object near Nashville, Tennessee, south-southeast of city.

After this the sightings stopped in the regions. It is interesting to note once again however, that the Skyhook was spotted in Columbia ,Tennessee(at 4:05PM) BEFORE it was spotted in Nashville(at 4:30PM). I live in Columbia, we are about 50 miles south of Nashville. How is this possible? Is it indeed that there was a Skyhook in the area BUT there was also something else? Although other reports from Ohio came later that night they are thought to be unrelated and likely from the planet Venus.

Rather or not this is true remains to be proven, although it is likely the explanation for the later Ohio sightings. The problem I have with the Skyhook(one of many problems actually) is that if the UFO was indeed the Skyhook than why was this story allowed to spread and be investigated by Bluebook?

One explanation is that the Navy (who owned the project) did not want to be held accountable for Mantells death and thus stayed out of it. But then why do we have some officials saying the balloon was launched from Ohio and others saying Minnesota? The theory, regardless if true or not, is as always with the military a complete mess and puzzle.

Helpful Link;


6. Final Conclusions

Courtesy ofhttp://www.ufocentral.org/greenwood/mantell/Mantell%202%20sightings_overlay2.jpg (Click link for full image)

That map was a detailed overlay of the flight path of the P-51s with respect to sightings from first observation in Kentucky to last sighting in Nashville(?).

We have here one of the most researched, debated, and publicized UFO-aircraft encounter cases there is. There is a plethora of information but still no final absolute. In fact this is in general terms one of the best UFO cases. But as usual there is serious conflicting reports from both sides (debunkers and believers), with that said there is still enough evidence to make a good judgement on what happened.

It all comes down to your core beliefs for most; d you believe or not? It shouldn’t, it should come down to the facts but it is what it is. There are equally good and bad arguments from both sides of this; one side has much documentation,professional opinions, and the status quo. But it has conflicting stories and things that just don’t add up with logic.

Like do you really think all these military officials would act like this over a balloon? Why are there so many conflictions of “facts” and change of testimony? Why did this craft seemingly cause a “time warp”(just a metaphor!) by being seen 50 miles south of Nashville BEFORE it was seen I Nashville? Talk about a paradox!

On the other side of the argument you have the expertise of war hardened military officials who were convinced this was something “unknown”, and remember the Skyhook projects weren’t classified, only their launch dates. Why did a two time World War Two medal winner and commander risk his life knowingly for just a balloon or Venus?

Logic says he would know the difference. A lot of unusual weather conditions would have had to occur to cause this “balloon” to make some of the flight paths and speed changes it made as well. Why did the head of Bluebook state this was one of the “classic” cases that changed UFOs perception by the military and then recant that later?

What about the “missing” transcripts? On the flip side of this however, you have the documentation and later statements from official and trusted sources offering compelling evidence in favor of a balloon. You have observations from astronomers on the ground in Tennessee describing a Skyhook almost to detail. Then you have the “War Nerves” that are expected immediately after a world war.

The biggest thing like always is of course the total lack of a “smoking gun”, the only thing is the transmissions (which are debated) of a dead pilot, witness reports, and circumstantial evidence. All in all this one is pretty even in my opinion, one must look heavily at the facts and decide based not on bias, but logic as to what really happened.

We also must not forget while getting caught up in this research that what ever the cause, rather it be the first UFO caused death or a tragic misunderstanding; that a young human life was lost on that January 7th day in 1948.

A family lost their son and brother,friends lost their friends.
It seems the Mantell Incident is a kind of a microcosm for the UFO phenomenon as a whole.
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.

Last edited by jamesc; 27-08-2010 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 27-08-2010, 03:03 PM   #10
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The Gorman UFO Dogfight;

Image of vintage 1948 comic strip depicting the Gorman incident courtesy ofhttp://www.bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=MAXW-PBB4-703


About nine months after the famous Mantell UFO Incident comes yet another great but sadly overlooked (by the general public) UFO-aircraft encounter case. This was another Air National Guard encounter, not in Kentucky but this time in Fargo, North Dakota. The difference between this and the Mantell incident however is the fact that on October 1st, 1948 2nd Lieutenant Gordon actually engaged in aerial combat maneuvers with the UFO.

The Mantell case and this one make up two of the three “classic UFO cases that proved UFOs were a real event” according to Project Blue Bookhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Blue_Book and Captain Edward J. Ruppelt’shttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_J._Ruppelt(First leader of Bluebook) best selling book The Report On Unidentified Flying Objects.http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/17346

Again we have a World War Two veteran pilot who saw something that he thought was legitimate enough to not only go out of his way (and risk his life) to investigate but engage in a 27 minute “dogfight” with the unknown object. Can this again be honestly attributed to a mistaken identity of Venus, atmospheric phenomena, or a balloon? Can we continue to discredit military personal who actively engage in attempted UFO contact and chalk it up to a “mistaken identity” without taking a serious look at the facts?

There is just way too many solid cases involving legitimate witnesses to ignore this phenomena .That again is the point of this post on this event so long ago and forgotten by sceptics and believers alike.To present a detailed overlook of the facts of another excellent case involving contact with a UFO, I am not pushing any conclusion on anyone, I am simply providing the facts of the case and offering my opinion. As usual the final decision is up to you the reader.

Chapter Summary
1. Overview of Second Lieutenant George F. Gorman
2. The UFO Is Spotted
3. UFO Versus P-51 Mustang
4. The Official Investigation
5. Alternate Explanations
6. Official Conclusion and My Conclusion

1. Overview of Second Lieutenant George F.Gorman

Image of 2nd Lt. George Gorman courtesy of http://www.nicap.org/docs/gorman/gorman3.htm

2nd Lt. George Gorman of the North Dakota Air National Guard was 25 years old at the time of this incident and a veteran fighter pilot of World War Two. His job in the war was to train French student fighter pilots so it is unlikely that he mistook a balloon, Venus, or atmospheric phenomena for a UFO and then proceed to engage it.

But things do happen sometimes so you never can be sure unless the facts show that an explanation is more likely than another. Also Gorman had no reason to lie as he was a well respected member of his community in Fargo, North Dakota, a business man, college educated, and a husband and father to a young daughter at the time. The following are some important facts noteworthy of Lieutenant Gorman:

• Full name was George F. Gorman
• Was 25 years old at time of incident
• Address at time of incident was Building 18, Federal Housing Project, Fargo, ND
• Occupation was manager of a construction company
• Was married with one child
• Education consisted of two and a half years of college for mechanical engineering and physics
• Military rank was 2nd Lieutenant
• Serial number was A0943873
• Assigned unit at time of incident was the North Dakota Air National Guard
• Number of years served in guard was two
• Served in World War Two
• World War Two assignment was pilot instructor for French military students

The following is a Project Signhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Sign(remember, Project Sign became Blue Book) “personal evaluation “ of Lt. Gorman. Information is courtesy of http://www.bluebookarchive.org/page....=MAXW-PBB4-746

2nd Lieutenant Gorman did not make the impression of being a dreamer. He reads little, and only serious literature. He spends 90% of his free time hunting and fishing; drinks less than moderately; smokes normally; and does not do drugs. He appears to be a sincere and serious individual who was considerably puzzled by his experience and made no attempt to blow his story up.

So it appears that Lt. Gorman has quite the credibility and even the USAF investigators had no reason to doubt his credibility and thus his story. The real question becomes what exactly was Gorman chasing that October night? With his large amount of experience and education it seems much more possible that Gorman did in fact become engaged with a truly unknown flying object in 1948.

2. The UFO Is Spotted

Map showing location of Fargo, North Dakota indicated by black dot

On October 1st, 1948 2nd Lt. Gorman was flying a cross-country flight with other Air Guard planes, their aircrafts were the P-51 Mustang. At approximately 8:30 PM the flight arrived over Fargo, North Dakota, while the other pilots decided to land at Hector Airport in Fargo, Gorman decided to take advantage of the clear night to get some night flying time.

At around 9:00PM his flight path took him over a football stadium where a game was being played, other then a small Piper Cub plane 500 feet below him the skies were empty, although apparently wouldn’t be for long. After being advised by the control tower that the Piper, piloted by Dr. A.E. Cannon had taken to the air, Gorman prepared to land.

About five minutes later he contacted the control tower asking if another plane was in the area. He was told no; Gorman reported back that another light, looking like the light on the tail of a plane had passed him on the right. Gorman radioed in that he was going to investigate the unknown object.

Image of Piper Cub courtesy of 3.UFO Versus P-51 Mustang

The ensuing dogfight lasted approximately 27 minutes and is the first reported “UFO-aircraft dogfight”. I will present this in a detailed timeline format for ease of reading and understanding. The following took place on the night of October 1st, 1948 in the sky over Fargo, North Dakota. All quotes are actual statements made by Gorman.The entire chase took place between the time frame of 9:00PM to 9:27PM with altitudes varying from 1,000 to 14,000 feet.

• 2nd Lieutenant Gorman pulls his P-51 up and reaches within 1,000 feet of the object.

"It was about six to eight inches in diameter, clear white, and completely round without fuzz at the edges [i.e., sharp and clear]," he said. "It was blinking on and off. As I approached, however, the light suddenly became steady and pulled into a sharp left bank. I thought it was making a pass at the tower.

• Gorman then performs a steep dive in chase of the object but cannot keep up even as he raised his manifold pressure.
• The object then gains altitude again and makes yet another left bank.

• Gorman puts his aircraft into a sharp turn to try and cut the “light” off at 7,000 feet.

• The unknown object then suddenly makes a sharp right turn directly towards Gorman’s plane.

• Just as they were going to collide Gorman pulls out and dives.

• The light passes over his canopy about 500 feet above him.

• The object then proceeded to make a left circle about 1,000 feet above him, Gorman gives chase again.

• Gorman cuts sharply towards the light to pursue it.

• The two craft (Gorman and UFO) take yet another head on collision course.
• The UFO breaks off as collision seemed imminent and takes a steep vertical climb.

• Gorman again attempts to chase but his plane power stallshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight) out at 14,000 feet and is still over 2,000 feet from the still climbing object.

• The object is not seen again after this.

At times during this chase Gorman pushed his plane to its limit of speed and maneuverability, at times reaching speeds of 400MPH and blacking out once due to extreme G-forces . With all that the object still easily managed to out perform Gorman’s craft in every aspect. Also it is worthy of noting that the experienced Gorman was so shook up after the incident that he had to circle the airport twice before landing!

Image showing circa 1948 P-51 (F-51) Mustang courtesy of

Image of actual newspaper showing story courtesy ofhttp://www.bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=MAXW-PBB4-776

To be Continued.....
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 30-08-2010, 01:05 PM   #11
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4. The Official Investigation;

Witness Statements;

This is another case with ground witness confirmation of the object as well as the pilot. Another added perk to this particular case is that another aircraft with two occupants also witnessed the event. The only thing this case doesn’t have is a radar contact, but beings that radar was a recently new invention at the time it was not as sensitive as today. Also it is commonly reported that UFOs exhibit stealth-like capabilities in both sensory and visual spectrums. Within a few hours Project Sign personal were at the scene. The following is a compilation of the witness reports:

Witnesses Information and Statements:

• Air traffic controller Lloyd D. Jensen:
-Age: 28 years old
-Address: 1423 6th Ave. South, Fargo, ND
-Occupation: Airport traffic controller at Fargo Airport (civilian)
-Marital Status: Married with one child
-Education: Two years of college
Evaluation of witness:

Mr. Jensen is exactly what his name implies- typical quiet, steady. Scandinavian type of individual. He seems very reliable, deliberate, and calculated in his observations. He is sober, does not smoke, use drugs, nor have any habits which could affect his normal way of thinking.


Summary of interrogation by Project Sign:

Courtesy of http://www.nicap.org/docs/gorman/gorman2.htm

• Air traffic controller H.E. Johnson:
-Age: 34 years old
-Address: 1422 Broadway, Fargo, ND
-Occupation: Assistant aircraft traffic controller at Fargo Airport
-Marital Status: Married with no children
-Education: High School graduate
-Military: None
Evaluation of witness:
Mr. Johnson is approximately the same type as Mr. Jensen, stoical, quiet, Scandinavian type, not easily impressed, (un readable), smokes pipe only, has never used any habit forming drugs.

Summary of interrogation by Project Sign:
Mr. Johnson was on duty at the Fargo Airport tower since about 1600 hours (4:00PM) 1, October 1948, and was in the tower at the time the F-51 called in requesting information about local traffic. At the time when Lt. Gorman called the second time in regard to the object. Mr. Johnson walked to the rear of the receiver and, looking out the south window, saw the object and the Cub. Object at this time was a little higher than the Piper Cub, and outside of him, the object seemed to be on a north heading and then turned northwest.


Other then mentioning that when Dr. L.N. Cannon landed his flight companion and he joined him on the south balcony and observed the object. Mr. Johnson had nothing more to add. The interrogating officer was Major Paul Kubala.

• Occupants of the Piper Cub(second aircraft): Pilot Dr. L.N. Cannon and passenger Einar Nielson
-Age: Was 66 years old
-Address: Newman’s Jewelry Store, Fargo ,ND
-Occupation: Dr. Cannon was an Eye, Ear, and Nose specialists (Occultist)
-Marital Status: Widower
-Education: Six years medical school
-Military: None
Evaluation of witness:
The doctor, in spite of his age, appeared to be highly alert, quick witted, and very capable. He took up flying two years ago and owns two aircraft today, flying them from the Fargo Flying Club, which is located south of Fargo. The doctor was not at all impressed with the occurrence of the night of 1 October, and seemed to be of the impression that a Canadian jet airplane may have come over and played tag with Lt. Gorman.


Summary of Interrogation:

Original source of image courtesy of http://www.nicap.org/bb/USAF-SIGN3-12.jpg

Apparently Dr. Cannon’s passenger was not interviewed by the USAF. Although unofficial, Mr. Nelson corroborated the doctor’s statements. The interrogation of the doctor was also conducted by Major Kubala. It is interesting to note that all witnesses, including Gorman, reported no sound what so ever, no smoke or exhaust, no smell, nothing but a very fast moving light apparently only around 6-8 inches in diameter.

• Sworn statement from 2nd Lt. George F. Gorman on October 23rd, 1948:
I am convinced that there was definite thought behind its maneuvers. I am further convinced that the object was governed by the laws of inertia because its acceleration was rapid but not immediate and although it was able to turn fairly tight at considerable speed, it still followed a natural curve. When I attempted to turn with the object I blacked out temporarily due to excessive speed.

I am in fairly good physical condition and I do not believe that there are many if any pilots who could withstand the turn and speed effected by the object, and remain conscious. The object was not only able to out turn and out speed my aircraft...but was able to attain a far steeper climb and was able to maintain a constant rate of climb far in excess of my aircraft.

From a later conversation….
"I can tell you this much," he said, "because it's been mentioned in print. There was thought behind every move the light made. It wasn't any radar-responder gadget making it veer away from my ship."

"How do you know that?"

"Because it reacted differently at different times. If it had been a mechanical control, it would have turned or climbed the same way each time I got near it. Instead, it was as if some intelligent mind was directing every turn like a game of chess, and always one move ahead of me. Maybe you can figure out the rest."


Apparently Dr. Cannon was approached by several different government investigators after this incident. Something that I found as well is some major discrepancies from the USAF itself pertaining to names of witnesses (ie; In one report the doctors initials are A.E. but in others is L.N., and others A.D! This was also the case with newspaper reports. I went with L.N. because it was the initial given in the first report by Sign) and different accounts given later down the line according to different government researchers. Here is a report conducted later in December of 48’ where you can see the information I am talking about pertaining to the multiple officials that contacted the doctor…

Courtesy of http://www.nicap.org/bb/MAXW-PBB4-769.jpg

So why did I bring that up? Well it is an interesting note in the case because obviously someone isn’t getting their research straight and it ain’t me! Another reason I brought that up is to point out the constant disorganized research the USAF does, regardless if it is intentional (disinfo) or not. Another interesting point is why so many more officials (at least that we know of) contacted the doctor. It is probably nothing but I thought it worthy of attention.

Characteristics of The UFO

• * Object was symmetrical from any side viewed
• Object traveled very fast, faster than the P-51
• Object appeared to be a small, bright light (Gorman said no larger than 8 inches around)
• Object could maneuver much better than the P-51
• Object was 3 dimensional
• Gorman saw the object through his canopy, windshield, rear, sides, and back while chasing it
• Object was as bright as the city lights
• The object became eclipsed for very short periods when in direct illumination of city lights
• Shape did not vary
• Size did vary in respect to the size when viewed from the windshield
• Total time observed was 27 minutes
• No sound, exhaust trails, or smell
• Altitude varied from 1,000 to 14,000 feet
• Object made extreme evasive-like maneuvers
• Color was “clear white”
• No distinguishing marks of any kind observed
• Flight direction varied
• The object seemed bound to the Laws of Inertia
• Appeared to Gorman to be under some kind of “intelligent control”

Some Helpful Links

”gorman2” ; http://www.nicap.org/docs/gorman/gorman2.htm
”gorman3” http://www.nicap.org/docs/gorman/gorman3.htm
Incident check list; http://www.nicap.org/docs/gorman/gorman481001docs6.htm
Witness interrogations; http://www.nicap.org/docs/gorman/gorman481001docs2.htm
Gorman directory; http://www.nicap.org/gormandir.htm

5. Alternate Explanations

NOTE: Project “Saucer” was slang for Project Sign.

A Lighted Weather Balloon?

This was the explanation that became the official answer to what Lt. Gorman was chasing. This theory however has some holes in it that need to be addressed.

Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, who headed the Air Force's PROJECT BLUE BOOK in the early 1950’s, later hypothesized that Gorman bad chased a lighted balloon (a plane would rapidly overtake a balloon creating the illusion of head-on passes), however, the reported high speeds away from the F-51 created a problem with this answer.

This official explanation still has some major issues. Here is what one atmospheric physicist said about it….

Dr. James E. McDonald. a University of Arizona atmospheric physicist, stated in 1970: "Although the pilot-balloon light became the official explanation there are a number of explicit statements in the Blue Book file that thoroughly discount that hypothesis.”

To be continued.
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 30-08-2010, 01:25 PM   #12
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Interesting thread. Are you familiar with Richard M.Dolan's books on the history of ufo's? His concentration on those cases involving mainly military or aeronautical based witnesses, seems to be a more worthwhile approach than most, but what is really needed is a brave whistleblower making an upload to WikiLeaks.
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Old 30-08-2010, 04:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
Interesting thread. Are you familiar with Richard M.Dolan's books on the history of ufo's? His concentration on those cases involving mainly military or aeronautical based witnesses, seems to be a more worthwhile approach than most, but what is really needed is a brave whistleblower making an upload to WikiLeaks.
Yes you are correct "ragnarok" a brave whistle blower is needed.I have read one of Richard M.Dolans books and he does provide very useful and compartmented information, it is my intention to read more of his work in the future, cheers for posting and showing interest,take care.
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 30-08-2010, 04:54 PM   #14
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Apparently the balloons where accounted for and not in the area at the time…
Some months later, 24 January 1949, the Air Weather Service provided ATIC with an analysis which indicated that Gorman had been chasing a lighted balloon. This explanation is not accepted by Keyhoe (1953), who says that although the Weather Bureau had released a weather balloon, it had been tracked by theodolite and found to have moved in a different direction from that in which Gorman had his UFO encounter.


Major Donald Keyhoe(USMC) firmly believed that this was an unknown case and that the balloon theory was bogus. Kehoe was a well respected military man and wrote many books and did much research into Ufology so I think his opinion should carry some weight. The following is an excerpt for Major Kehoe’s book ”Flying Saucers Are Real”, Donald Keyhoe, 1950,2006(reprint),Cosimo Classics that contained a transcript of his conversation with Lt. Gorman. This passage I am about to show you totally debunks the balloon theory in my opinion…
"Anybody suggest it was a balloon?" I said casually.

"At first, they were sure that's what it was," answered Gorman. "You see, there was a weather balloon released here. You know the kind, it has a lighted candle on it. The Project teams said I'd chased after that candle and just imagined the light's maneuvers--confused it with my own movement, because of the dark."

Gorman grinned. "They had it just about wrapped up--until they talked to George Sanderson. He's the weather observer. He was tracking the balloon with a theodolite, and he showed them his records. The time and altitudes didn't fit, and the wind direction was wrong. The balloon was drifting in the opposite direction. Both the tower men backed him up. So that killed the weather-balloon idea."

An astronomical check by Professor Hynek ruled out stars, fireballs, and comets--a vain hope, to begin with. The only other conventional answer, as the Project report later stated, was hallucination. In view of all the testimony, hallucination had to he ruled out. Finally, the investigators admitted they had no solution.

The first Project "Saucer" report, on April 27, 1949, left the Gorman "mystery light" unidentified.

In the Saturday Evening Post of May 7, 1949, Sidney Shallett analyzed the Gorman case, in the second of his articles on flying saucers. Shallet suggested this solution: that Gorman had chased one of the Navy's giant cosmic-ray research balloons. Each of these huge balloons is lighted, so that night-flying planes will not collide with the gas bag or the instrument case suspended below. Shallett concluded that Gorman was suffering from a combination of vertigo and confusion with the light on the balloon.

As already mentioned, these huge Navy balloons are filled with only a small amount of helium before their release at Minneapolis. They then rise swiftly to very high altitudes, unless a leak develops. In Shallett's words, "These balloons travel high and fast. . . ."

Fargo is about two hundred miles from Minneapolis. Normally, a cosmic-ray research balloon would have reached a very high altitude by the time it had drifted this far. The only possible answer to its low-altitude sighting would be a serious leak.

If a leaking balloon had come down to one thousand feet at Fargo, it would either have remained at that height or kept on descending. The mystery light was observed at this altitude moving at high speed. If a Cub's outline was visible against the lighted football field, the massive shape of even a partly deflated balloon would have stood out like an elephant. Even before release, the partially inflated gas bags are almost a hundred feet tall. The crowd at the football game would certainly have seen such a monstrous shape above the glare of the floodlights, for the plastic balloons gleam brightly
{p. 95**

in any light rays. The two C.A.A. men, watching with binoculars, could not possibly have missed it.
For the cosmic-balloon answer to be correct, this leaking gas bag would have had to rise swiftly to seventeen thousand feet--after a loss of helium had forced it down to one thousand. As a balloon pilot, I know this is impossible. The Project "Saucer" report said unequivocally:

"The object could outturn and outspeed the F-51, and was able to attain a much steeper climb and to maintain a constant rate of climb far in excess of the Air Force fighter.
A leaking balloon? More and more, I became convinced that Secretary Forrestal had persuaded some editors that it was their patriotic duty to conceal the answer, whatever it was.


Illusion of Jupiter or Combination of balloon/Jupiter

Dr. Donald H. MENZEL, a Harvard University astronomer. recognizing some problems of applying the balloon hypothesis to the witness testimony, decided that there were two objects responsible for the "illusion"--a balloon and the planet Jupiter. Gorman was at times seeing a lighted balloon, and at other times "very probably a mirage of the planet Jupiter "

Well this is more complex but not much better of an explanation, although it is still possible. The USAF didn’t even go with this theory but for the sake of ruling normal things out we need to take a look at it. For this to be true one must not take into account the uniform movements of the object as seen by multiple witnesses. They all would not be seeing the same mirage move at the same time, in fact that goes against all laws of physics if that is true. This was not the case here, the object appeared to move the same direction as observed by all witnesses.

What does this mean? Well it means that if this was a mirage than likely no one but Gorman and possibly the Piper pilot would have seen it because they were in a reference frame close to each other. But the fact that observers on the ground as well saw the same thing means that a mirage is not possible(or at least not very likely in any sense). Because, simply put, if this was a mirage only seen by Gorman(as this alternate hypothesis goes) then it would be impossible for all the other witnesses to see the same thing, which they did. The only logical conclusion (in my opinion) from this observation must be that the object was actually physically there; meaning that this object had to physically exist and had to be creating these observations by itself, and not by the bending and stretching of light rays seen from a certain speed and position creating a mirage of the planet Jupiter.

If this object was subjective or dependent on the observers then they all would have seen very different “flight paths” of the object or not have seen the object at all, which is not the case. So by applying some relatively simple physics and meteorological understanding to the problem (admittedly there wasn’t as much information known at this time) we can likely dismiss the mirage theory, not to mention the unrealistic atmospheric and optical dynamics that would have had to happen to even begin to cause this “mass illusion”.

To further delve into this theory let us take a look at how mirages can form….
Light reaching our eye, after traveling through a region of the atmosphere where the temperature gradient is constant, follows a curved (parabolic) path. (See diagrams below. In them, the dark lines indicate the actual light ray path and the white dashed lines the path our mind thinks it sees.)

The degree of curvature is proportional to the temperature gradient along that path -- the stronger the temperature gradient through which the light passes, the greater the bend. When the temperature gradient is not constant but changes with height, the curvature of the light path can increase more rapidly at some heights than others, thus producing interesting effects such as object distortions and multiple images.

The light ray always bends toward the colder (and thus denser) air, so that the colder air is on the inside of the curvature. The image we see is always displaced in the direction of the warmer air. Therefore, if we have a temperature gradient with warmer air nearest the surface, the image will be displaced downward toward the surface -- forming an inferior mirage. When the air is colder near the surface (an inversion condition), the image is displaced upward, forming a superior mirage.

Mirages are confined to small viewing angles even when they appear large, about half a degree in width -- the size of the solar disk -- and most portray objects located from half a kilometre to about five kilometres (about a quarter mile to three miles). Under strong inversion conditions, however, objects hundreds of kilometres away can be seen, including those located beyond the normal viewing horizon.

To be Continued.
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 30-08-2010, 08:10 PM   #15
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Thanks for this exllent thread. Gave some good read although i was already familiar with most cases. Keep it up.
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Old 10-09-2010, 03:52 PM   #16
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The witnesses did not see a “stacked disc shape” or see changing colors, they saw a small, luminous ball. Now I am sure conditions can be created to cause this but I have found no mention of how that would happen anywhere.

Graph depicting temperature inversion courtesy of http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weathe...ts/mirage1.htm

There was no temperature inversion reported that night, and without that the chances of a mirage happening are highly unlikely.

A Canadian “Vampire” Jet?

Image of Vampire jet courtesy of
This was Dr. Cannon’s opinion, and for a brief time the opinion of Project Sign. This was quickly dismissed by multiple unavoidable facts:

1.) There was no Canadian aircraft near the area that night as confirmed by multiple military sources.

2.) Radar would have easily picked up this craft.

3.) Lt. Gorman and others would have obviously seen the outline of a jet but they did not. There is no way Gorman could have confused a jet(even without running lights) for a small, 8 inch in diameter white light.

4.)The following USAF Blue Book document I found instantly discredits this explanation of a “Canadian Vampire Jet”….(Read all of it, the official debunking of the vampire jet theory comes in the middle of paragraph 5)

Document courtesy of

Helpful Links


6. Official Conclusions and My Conclusion

Official USAF Conclusions

Well the official conclusions were (like the Mantell case) originally said to be “unknown”(in Project Sign), but later (after the formation of Blue Book) changed to “a lighted weather balloon”. Well I believe I have shown evidence that have already dismissed that fact, as have official USAF documents. But for the sake of a neutral presentation let us look at the final conclusions…

Within a few hours, military officers from Project Sign arrived to question Gorman and the other witnesses. Project Sign had been created by the US Air Force in late 1947 to investigate UFO reports. The officers interviewed Gorman, Dr. Cannon and his passenger, and the control tower personnel at Fargo's Airport. The officers also checked Gorman's F-51 Mustang with a Geiger counter for radiation.

They found that his Mustang was measurably more radioactive than other fighters which had not flown for several days; this was taken as evidence that Gorman had flown close to an "atomic-powered" object.[5] The Air Force investigators also ruled out the possibility of the lighted object being "another aircraft, Canadian Vampire jet fighters, or a weather balloon."[5] Their initial conclusion, writes UFO historian Curtis Peebles, was "that something remarkable had occurred" to Gorman in the skies above Fargo.[5]

However, further investigation by Project Sign personnel soon revealed flaws in the evidence.[6] A plane flying high in the Earth's atmosphere is less-shielded from radiation than one at ground level, thus the Geiger-counter readings were considered invalid evidence for stating that the lighted object was atomic-powered.

Here are the official readings from the Geiger Counter test (Gorman’s plane is the top)…

(For more detailed information on readings see link below)
Image courtesy of http://www.nicap.org/docs/gorman/gorman481001docs16.htm

The cropped image I showed is only the final average radioactivity of the craft in “rads”, notice the top plane (Gorman’s) is much higher then even the second highest plane which is at around 52.Personally I don’t believe that the above normal readings you saw can be attributed to a “high altitude” of only 14,000 feet (only for a brief moment). Here is some information on radiation levels throughout the atmosphere…

Courtesy of http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Earth--Atm...Home/index.htm

Simply put, the radiation levels at that low altitude(or any altitude below around 30,000 feet at the least) are not sufficient to cause those types of readings. So what caused those readings? We may never know. But here is an interesting letter sent to Major Keyhoe pertaining to the “Geiger readings”…

The letter that came from Art Green, while I was working on the space plans, didn't make it easier:

Dear Keyhoe:

Just heard about your Seattle visit. That Fairfield Suisan thing is on the level; several Air Force pilots have told me about it.

When you get to Fargo, ask Gorman what they found when they checked his ship with a Geiger counter. If he says it was negative, then he must be under orders. I happen to know better.


{p. 98**


[6] In addition, the Air Weather Service revealed that on October 1 it had released a lighted weather balloon from Fargo at 8:50 PM. By 9 PM the balloon would have been in the area where Gorman and the Piper Cub passengers first saw the lighted object.[6] Project Sign's investigators also believed that the incredible movements of the object were due to Gorman's own maneuvers as he chased the light - the object's maneuvers were an illusion brought about by the movements of Gorman's fighter.[6]

The Project Sign personnel also noted that none of the witnesses in the Fargo Airport control tower reported the remarkable maneuvers described by Gorman.[4] By early 1949 the Gorman case was labeled by Project Sign and its successors - Project Grudge and Project Blue Book - as being caused by a lighted weather balloon.[6]

Here is a statement made by the leader of Blue Book himself directly contradicting their “evidence”…

Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, 1956... "Other assorted historians point out that normally the 'UFOs' are peaceful, [fighter pilots] Gorman and Mantell just got too inquisitive, 'they' just weren't ready to be observed. If the Air Force hadn't slapped down the security lid these writers might not have reached this conclusion. There have been other and more lurid 'duels of death.'"


But the personal in the tower did see the object change direction and Dr. Cannon not only saw the object go one direction and then turn around but he also saw it make a steep bank while changing direction. Well that about sums up the USAF opinion of the incident, now I will give my opinion (and it is only that) on what happened. Here is another interesting statement from an aeronautical engineer who worked in depth with the government on the UFO phenomena in the late 40’s and 50’s whose name was changed by Keyhoe for privacy reasons…

"Only possible answer," said Redell. "But just try to imagine crowding a motor, or jet controls for rim jets, along with remote controls and a television device, in that small space. Plus your fuel supply. I don't know any engineer who would even attempt it. To carry that much gear, it would take a fair-sized plane. You could make a disk large enough, but the mechanism and fuel section would be two or three feet across, at least. So Gorman's light must have been powered and controlled by some unique means.

The same principle applies to all the other light reports I've heard. No shape behind them, high speed, and intelligent maneuvers. That thing was guided from some interplanetary ship, hovering at a high altitude," Redell declared. "But I haven't any idea what source of power it used."


Final Conclusion of The USAF: Lt. Gorman was chasing a “lighted weather balloon”.

NOTE: Project “Saucer” was the slang for Project Sign.

It is of interest to note that Lt. Gorman was given orders by the Air Material Command to not divulge any more information than what he had already, they threatened him under Court Marshall and were saying they wanted to charge him for information he already divulged! The following is a copy of a letter sent from Gorman in response to
Kenneth Arnold (yes that Kenneth Arnold) :
To be Continued.....
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:04 PM   #17
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December 10, 1948;

Mr. Kenneth Arnold
General Mgr.
Great Western Fire Control
Box 387
Boise, Idaho

"Dear Mr. Arnold,

I am sorry that I have been unable to answer your letters. However I think that you can understand my position better when you know the facts.

First of all I am under the military control of the Tenth Air Force and they have issued direct orders concerning the disc or object.

Second the Air Materiel Command has issued orders classifying the information as Secret. And this makes it a General Court Martial to release any more information. The Command has asked that My commanding officer and myself be court marshaled for releasing what information we did. I have General Ewards or some high officer to think for refusing to carry it out.

Third the Counter Intelligence Corp have asked that I turn over all information over to them. And I have no doubt the F.B.I. Will get around to sending a few letters too.

The public relations officer released more then he should have and now we are being given a rough time. And they can do it too.

I have a normal amount of curiosity and I have a lot of questions to ask. But then I had a lot of them answered that nite. The rest of that I have will have to wait until they get ready to answer them.

One of these days I will be out to Boise and look you up and we can visit. I think that I can be out there just after the first of the year.

I would enjoy hearing from you again and I hope to see you soon".

George F. Gorman
1421-13th st. N.
Fargo, N. Dak.


Seems like Mr. Arnold was trying to reach out to a fellow pilot who had encountered something truly amazing.

Now why would the USAF do that for a weather balloon? It is also said that the Geiger counter readings were hidden and denied as well. Now even if the plane wasn’t radioactive to a higher extent than the others that does not mean Gorman didn’t encounter a UFO. Who knows what kind of advanced propulsion systems a true alien craft might possess? Needless to say some interesting radioactive readings were found.

With all the possible explanations having massive holes in them (to say the least) I truly think this case remains unknown and another explanation is needed, however the only one that fits in my opinion is that Gorman did encounter something “intelligently controlled and of an unknown origin”. There is a lot of information on this case but it is spread out and takes some time to understand and organize.

Like many other cases in Ufology there is a lot more evidence to be discovered if one simply digs a little and doesn’t take the official explanation at face value. In my opinion this ranks in the top ten of best UFO cases ever, that is only my opinion however. Now if this was an actual alien probe or spacecraft is truly unknown but I think the evidence speaks for itself.

At the very least this case remains unsolved.Well that concludes this case for now.


ncas.org(Condon Report)
”Flying Saucers Are Real”, Donald Keyhoe, 1950,2006(reprint),Cosimo Classics
(Link to online version courtesy of sacred-texts.com)
Link to online version of “Flying Saucers Are Real” , http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/fsar/index.htm
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:40 PM   #18
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Great thread! ThX for sharing with us jamesc

OOPARTS http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11442

_____Truth Doesn't Fear Investigation_____
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Old 19-09-2010, 06:03 PM   #19
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1953 May 20, Kingman Arizona UFO crash.

source quote;
"It has been published that a UFO crashed on the 20th May 1953 near the desert town of Kingman, Arizona. One witness signed an affidavit".

This case was first made to MUFON researcher Richard Hall in April 1964,this was made by a future Vietnam commander,but this was not the man to make it public.

Source quotes;
"The case of the Kingman UFO retrieval was later brought to the public attention by Raymond Fowler, a respected UFO researcher, in June 1973. It involved an engineer who took preliminary measurements to assess the momentum of a crashing craft, measurements useful to any reverse engineering efforts. The engineer who brought this story to light was Arthur G. Stancil (previously known by the pseudonym "Fritz Werner").

"Stancil graduated from Ohio University in 1949 and was first employed by Air Material Command at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio as a mechanical engineer on testing Air Force aircraft engines. Dr. Eric Wang who was suspected of leading a reverse engineering team on alien craft headed the Installations Division within the Office of Special Studies where Arthur worked".

"The case of the Kingman UFO retrieval was then brought to the public attention by Raymond Fowler, a respected UFO researcher, in June 1973. It involved an engineer who took preliminary measurements to assess the momentum of a crashing craft, measurements useful to any reverse engineering efforts".

"The engineer who brought this story to light was Arthur G. Stancil (previously known by the pseudonym "Fritz Werner"). Stancil graduated from Ohio University in 1949 and was first employed by Air Material Command at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio as a mechanical engineer on testing Air Force aircraft engines. Dr. Eric Wang who was suspected of leading a reverse engineering team on alien craft headed the Installations Division within the Office of Special Studies where Arthur worked."

"Stancil signed a legal affidavit vouching to the honesty of his testimony, who has been was released by Ray Fowler in UFO Magazine, April 1976.

"Stancil told that he was loaned out to the Atomic Energy Commission and was designated as a project engineer on some atomic bomb tests referred to as "Operation Upshot Knothole". The location of these tests was at Frenchman's Flats at the southern end of the Nevada Test Site. The test director was a Dr. Ed Doll".

source link; http://www.ufologie.net/htm/kingman53.htm
"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.
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Old 19-09-2010, 06:13 PM   #20
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1991 Russian Crash and Retrieval, "Grave of the Devil";

Published: 4:53 AM 10/11/2004;

In recent history, reports of UFO sightings came primarily from the United States and Great Britain. Ufologists and other interested individuals knew that a world of information was kept behind a Communist curtain of secrecy. The Russian military, the KGB, and the Russian government kept a tight lid on all information, including any UFO or paranormal activity.

Thanks to Glasnost, that has changed. Now information is coming from the former Soviet countries, as UFO researchers and scientists are relating information through the Internet, and organizations like MUFON. Fortunately, the Russians have always taken a more serious approach to the enigma of UFOs.

In America, at least until recently, most individuals who saw something strange were afraid to come forward with the information. This "little green men" mentality does not exist in Russian reports. For that reason, we are graced with an excellent report of a crashed saucer. Ufologists Nikolay Subbotin and Emil Backurin's labors bring us this compelling account of a crash in the "Shaitan Mazar," Russian for "Grave of the Devil." The Shaitan Mazar is located in the Tien Shan Mountains of Kyrgyzstan near the border of China.

The incident of Shaitan Mazar began on August 28, 1991, at shortly before 5:00 P.M. An extremely large object approximately 600 meters long, and 110 meters in diameter appeared over the Caspian Sea, showing on radar screens of the tracking station on the Mangyshlak peninsula. Radar computations showed the object moving at the speed of 6,300 miles per hour, at an altitude of 21,000 feet. Tracking station operators immediately broadcast the "friend or foe" request.

No response was received. The streaking craft was now considered an "intruder." The cosmodrome at nearby Kapustin Yar was contacted, requesting information on any test flights from the facility. The officer in charge replied that there were no test flights of any type, and that he, also, had the object on his radar screen. Operators at Mangyshlak issued a military alert.

The alert put the military into action immediately. Two MIG 29 fighters were diverted from a routine mission, and two others were scrambled from the peninsula. The pilots were ordered to attempt to force the craft to land, and if those orders were refused, to shoot it down! Military flight commanders gave interception coordinates to the planes.

They would meet with the unknown object over the Aral Sea. Speeding to the position, the MIGs had the object on their radar screens. When they reached visual range, they were shocked to see a gigantic, elongated, metallic gray object. The flight leader requested the "friend of foe" response, and gave orders for the unknown craft to fall in behind the lead MIG, and follow it to a landing.

There was no response from the craft. Also, the UFO seemed unconcerned with the MIGs, which now surrounded it. The MIGs had assumed a position of 800 meters from the unknown craft. As the MIGs closed in on the craft, the pilots noticed two port holes toward the front of the object, and green symbols composed of a language unknown to any of the Russian pilots.

Participants in the expedition to Shaitan Mazar. (L to R)
Oleg Murashev, Nelli Slugina, Anton Bogatov, Nikolay Subbotin, Alexey Kostenko, Emil Bachurin.

Photo by Maxim Slugin., Copyright by Nikolay Subbotin © and Russian UFO Research Station ©, 1998.

As the MIG jets kept pace with the object, they radioed the status of their search to area defense headquarters. An emergency meeting was called to make a decision on the course of action. Should they give the order to shoot the craft down? This could blast it out of the sky, and minimize the amount of information to be gleaned about its origin and mission. High ranking officers decided to fire warning shots across its flight path, forcing it to follow the MIGs to a safe landing. "Close in from either side."

"Fly parallel to the target and fire warning shots in its path," was the exact order given to the MIG leader. The planes immediately responded by closing from 800 to 500 meters. They were ready to fire their weapons. As the pilots squeezed their triggers there was no response from their controls! None of the electrical system worked. The cockpit controls were dead, and then the engines began to sputter. The object began to pull away from the MIGs.

The planes were now unoperational. Their condition was radioed to headquarters, and they were ordered to nurse their planes back to base, and abandon the hunt for the intruding UFO. Radars on the ground continued to track the object, as it made a zigzag course back over the Aral Sea. Mathematical computations assigned the craft's speed at an astonishing 42,000 miles per hour as it again assumed civilian air space.

As the object left the MIGs, the controls on the jets began to return, enabling them to make a safe landing. Flight controllers at Mangyshlak made notification to air force and civilian personnel of the object's projected flight path. They were told that an unidentified craft was traveling through their area, posing a serious threat of collision with other craft. Approximately 45 minutes after the sudden appearance of the UFO, it simply vanished from radar screens.

Though shaken from the stirring events of the last three-quarters of an hour, there was a sense of relief among military personnel that whatever or whoever had invaded their airspace and crippled their jets, had left them. This was the end of the giant UFO, or was it?

Although the strange and unusual events of August 28, 1991, brought numerous debriefings and discussion, the threat of the UFO was now passed. What was the enormous craft that had invaded civilian airspace? What was its origin? What was its mission? Was the threat from another country? or another galaxy?

These questions were tossed about for a month with only conjecture and speculation offered for an answer. The search for the UFO would now take a dramatic turn.

By the end of September, rumors began to be spread about a large object which had crashed into the mountains of Shaitan Mazar.

Residents of the villages around Karakol were witnesses to an object of immense size that had met its fate deep in the mountains to their east, in a rocky gorge called "The Grave of the Devil," near the Sary Dzhaz River.

These stories became so prevalent, that an expedition was formed to make a dangerous trek up into the deep mountain forests to find this strange craft. Was the story of the villagers real? The expedition was now ready to answer that question.

The group of brave men and women who formed this expedition was made up of experienced mountain climbers, locals who knew the danger of the mountains and woods, and members of the Russian UFO group, SAKKUFON.

The leader of this UFO group was the well respected researcher Anton Bogatov, who would also lead the fact finding expedition.

Hopes were high that this group could locate the crash site and answer many compelling questions about the large craft. Would they be successful, or would they merely find a meteor, or perhaps a piece of asteroid? The locals, who were descendants of the Mongol race would actually lead the way to the crash site, which would take them through the dangerous snow-covered Tien Shan Mountains.

Following sighting reports and rumors, the group traveled for two weeks through the mountains. They could not find any sign of a crash. Deciding that the crash must have occurred at the other end of the Sary Dzhaz River valley, they journeyed there. Rumors also began to spread by messengers to the group that several of the locals had actually found the crash site, but were burned, and their watches malfunctioned.

This put an evil stigma on the crash site to the locals, but it was just the kind of news that would urge the group on to find the now forbidden site. The heavy snows of the Tien Shans ominously warned of an avalanche, and almost certain death. The group forged on for two more weeks, but without success. Finally, with members suffering frostbite and exposure, the members turned back to their base camp at Bishek.

There they rested before returning to their respective homes. The mission had failed. Would this be the last of the expedition? or would the persistent rumors of the crash continue to urge others to return to the Tien Shans to look for the UFO?

The upper echelon of Russian government had become very interested in the rumors of the crashed site. The sudden disappearance of the UFO from radar screens only a few months earlier still held their attention. Was the crashed flying object and the object over the Aral one and the same? A proud people, the Russians were not want to be embarrassed.

They became even more determined to get to the bottom of the mystery. Dramatic new information was forthcoming. SAKKUFON received a report that the Russian Air Force had found the crash site in November 1991! While attempting to hoist part of the object from a snow-covered bank, the helicopter had crashed, killing all aboard.

Russian winter was at hand, and the Air Force stated that no further attempts of retrieving the craft were planned until spring. This could be it! This new information was the catalyst needed to put new life and determination into the UFO research group. They would plan another land trip, but they must beat the government to the site, or the findings would forever be hidden from public knowledge.

Continue with Russian UFO Crash, Part 2

1991 Russian Crash and Retrieval, "Grave of the Devil" Part 2

Published: 4:53 AM 10/11/2004

The second expedition to the crash site could not suffer the same fate as the first. More intense preparation and leadership would be required. To this end, retired Major German G. Svechkov was drafted to take command of the unit. An entire crew of volunteers was drafted. All of the crew were chosen for their particular expertise.

All members would be trained for the mission both physically and mentally. All who would make the dangerous trek would pass a plethora of tests, including physical endurance and survival training. During the planning stage, the first order from Major Svechkov was to divide the crew members into three separate groups. Three different routes would be taken, all similar, just in case one of the groups had to turn back.

Svechkov's idea was that at least one group would succeed, and bring back the invaluable evidence they sought; evidence that an alien spacecraft had crashed into the Tien Shan Mountains. The group was well trained and ready to make the journey to the crash site in June of 1992. They would begin from a camp located approximately one and one quarter mile from the supposed crash site. Their first obstacle would be to scale the northern face of the treacherous mountain.

The group's plans were to make a thorough search of the area around the crash site for any anomalies before making camp. The stories of the radiation hazards may be real. They would take all precautions before proceeding to the object itself. It would be the middle of June when the group of volunteers met success. They had found the craft!

The immense object had come to rest on a plateau and in the process had broken into two pieces. One of the crew members would later describe the humbling elation of the find. "There it was, a craft from another world." Also, the craft was still emitting an energy field of some type.

Expedition member Emil Bachurin would state, "You could feel it all around."

The crew was still some 1,500 meters from the craft, but its unbelievable size was clearly discernible even from that distance. As the group approached to within 1,000 meters of the craft, they were overcome with an intense feeling of dread, and anxiety. As they continued to approach the craft, these feelings created an overwhelming fatigue.

At the distance of 1,000 meters, delicate electronic instruments malfunctioned. The group could feel electricity around them, like humid, thick air. The only thing that pushed them on was the extraordinary sight of craft from a distant planet. There could be no doubt now. They were approaching an extraterrestrial spacecraft.

The electromagnetic field of the UFO was so intense that all compass needles were drawn directly to the object, while other types of measuring instruments simply went dead. From a closer vantage point, it was now clear how the object had met its fate. It had smashed into an overhanging cliff which caused an internal explosion. The explosion had caused the craft to break into two pieces.

The group was shocked at the power of the object's energy field. Many of the tests and measurements planned had to be canceled. Visual observations would have to suffice. Doing what they could with moving to and from the field of the craft's power, some small experiments were done. Power generators would burn up when pulled to start.

Other sources of power seemed to be swallowed up by the magnetic field of the other worldly spaceship. The researchers could now determine that the craft, after hitting the cliffs above them had skidded on its belly for a distance of 5,000 feet before coming to rest.

The nose was dented from the impact, and the mid section explosion had blown out the metallic cover, bending it outward. Unfortunately, the members of the expedition was not able to approach any closer than 800 meters before the energy field stopped them. Many drawings and sketches were made of their observations.

The explosion damage in the craft's mid section did allow a glimpse inside. Beams and flooring could be seen, arranged in a way as to imply more than one level. No sign of alien bodies could be seen from their vantage point.

The strange, green symbols were large enough to be studied, and they were copied exactly by Nikolay Subbotin. All agreed that the symbols did not represent any known language, but they confirmed without a doubt that this craft was one and the same as the four MIG jets had chased.

Photographs were taken, but obviously the radiation field caused the film to be overexposed, ruining some of the most valuable pieces of information in UFO history. Some of the crew members received radiation burns at a distance of 800 meters. Video tape was also ruined, as the cameras would not even function at a close enough distance to film the craft.

In the distance, the expedition could see the remains of the Russian MI-8 helicopter, which had tried to hoist a portion of the craft. No bodies were seen. Were the bodies retrieved by the military? The strong electromagnetic fields could have disabled the helicopter's instruments, causing the crash, it was surmised.

The heartache of the expedition members was almost too much to bear. There they were, so close and yet so far. They had been able to do what thousands of researchers and scientists could only dream of. They had actually seen a crashed UFO, yet so much more information was needed. The world wide impact of the photographs on the scientific community would have been immeasurable. To have been able to go inside this ship from another world would be the dream of a lifetime. Still, the expedition was highly successful in many ways.

They did have their own observances and testimony. They had sketches and drawings. They had an unbelievable story to tell whoever would listen. They had one more thing. The desire to make another attempt to see inside the saucer; to touch the craft, to walk inside of it. And if the craft was not remotely controlled, they could even see a being from another world!

Only a few months after the second expedition had ended, plans were already underway for a triumphant third journey to the crash site. This project would materialize, but the results would be disappointing. It would take until 1998 to gather the funding and personnel to make the trip one more time. Participants in this ill-fated third expedition were: Oleg Murashev, Nelli Slugina, Anton Bogatov, Nikolay Subbotin, Alexey Kostenko, and Emil Bachurin.

On August 19, 1998, Nikolay Subbotin and his group left Moscow and traveled first to Almatis to find German Svechkov, who was a leader of the June 1992 expedition. They made contact with Svechkov's son, Vasily, but he refused to tell them where to find his father. It seems that the senior Svechlov was more concerned at this time with the downward turn of the Russian financial situation.

He was worried that leaving his business for an extended period of time might cause it to fail completely. The group left without him, but without his funds the mission was doomed. With only meager resources, they were not able to rent a helicopter to take them close enough to the site to make the mission feasible.

They did make the site, but the UFO was gone. Too much time had elapsed, and more than likely, the military had removed it the spring following the semi-successful second expedition. Markers left by the second group were still there, but the craft and the helicopter were gone.

The ground had been planed by construction equipment, removing any sign of the original crash. The gigantic UFO of 1991 was not an illusion. It had been confirmed by radar, and seen by four pilots, who described it in detail.

The second expedition had found the craft, and drawn sketches and diagrams of it. They had meticulously duplicated the alien markings on its tail. For a few fleeting moments, the hope of the entire UFO community had been achieved. One disappointment after another had made that triumph short-lived.

When the third expedition had found nothing at the site, doubt began to arise about the validity of the findings of the second group. There is too much documentation from independent witnesses to dispute the existence of the UFO. Most UFO enthusiasts believe the testimony of the members of the second expedition. An extraterrestrial spacecraft crashed in the "Grave of the Devil," in the Tien Shan Mountains.

Direct correspondance with Emil Bacchurin & Nikolay Subbotin;

links about the 1991 UFO crash in Russia parts one and two;

part one; http://www.ufocasebook.com/Russia.html
part two; http://www.ufocasebook.com/Russia2.html

"What if the alien encounter phenomenon were subtle in the sense that it may manifest in the physical world but derives from a source which by its very nature could not provide the kind of hard evidence that would satisfy skeptics for whom reality is limited to the material? What if we were to acknowledge that the phenomenon is beyond our present framework of knowledge?"- Dr John Mack.

Last edited by jamesc; 19-09-2010 at 06:14 PM.
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