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Old 14-10-2017, 12:19 PM   #21
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Thanks for this.

I do not disagree, but it is the Christian myth I am analysing from a moral standpoint, just as we do for the myths and fables we will read to our children. Not whether it is myth or not.

Care to give your moral view of Eve being punished for Adams sin?

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I'd say they both got a raw deal but Eve more than Adam. Also, I don't consider what either of them did as being a sin. If someone told me in a plausible way that my eyes would be open and I'd be as gods, then I'd 'eat the apple' as well, symbolically speaking.
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Old 14-10-2017, 12:23 PM   #22
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I'd say they both got a raw deal but Eve more than Adam. Also, I don't consider what either of them did as being a sin. If someone told me in a plausible way that my eyes would be open and I'd be as gods, then I'd 'eat the apple' as well, symbolically speaking.
I agree. To remain in ignorant bliss while as bright as a brick would be the foolish thing to do.

Yet Christians see that as the right thing to do. Shame on them.

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Old 14-10-2017, 06:12 PM   #23
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I'd say they both got a raw deal but Eve more than Adam. Also, I don't consider what either of them did as being a sin. If someone told me in a plausible way that my eyes would be open and I'd be as gods, then I'd 'eat the apple' as well, symbolically speaking.
Adults are telling my child that drinking is a 'rite of passage' and his mates are telling him that drinking makes life more fun and he is missing out.
The truth is that no-one has ever had a better life because of alcohol. In fact it destroys lives and creates illness in the mind and body.

Yet there is a little truth in that it makes people happy as it takes away the pain - for a while - and ,makes you feel more confident - until it starts creating more pain than you originally had.

If he wants to know the truth he might trust his friends and adults - yet he can look it up online or go on his own personal knowledge and find out the truth himself - which he has done.

Now Eden was similar in that they knew they could trust God as so far he had looked after them and provided them with everything they needed.
The snake - they did not know well - but his argument seemed plausible as it had a bit of truth in it.
But did they get to know him better? See where he lived? Ask his friends if he could be trusted?What his angle was? No.
So they were not that bright then.

Same with teenagers - they may personally know an alcoholic and know the dangers but they will still want to make their own mistakes and try stuff out for themselves. Maybe they want to rebel against their parents.

Free will means that people do stupid stuff sometimes - and learn from their mistakes if they are lucky enough to still be around to do so.

I think God did everything he could to warn them of the dangers.
But he wanted them to have free will. If they didn't have free will they would have been safe from harm.
Maybe what they didn't realise is that to have free will is to already be like God.
But they didn't use their brains they just went straight for that apple - if it's survival of the fittest - Adam and Eve weren't going to be the Sherlock Holmes of humans -so they were flawed long before they met that snake with stupidity and maybe naivety lol.

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Old 14-10-2017, 08:06 PM   #24
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Default Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Adam might have thought he was in charge. lol.
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Old 14-10-2017, 09:08 PM   #25
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I think God did everything he could to warn them of the dangers.
But he wanted them to have free will.
Did God warn Adam that he had put Satan or the talking serpent with Eve, who could not possibly resist God's own power of deception flowing through Satan?

Another glitch to your ideas is that without the knowledge of good and evil a person cannot desire anything and without desire there is no free will.

Skip to about the 38 min. mark and listen to this Rabbi tell you about the Jewish myth and the creation of desire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAJkiUHizhk

You are bright enough to recognize the truth of what she will tell you.

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Old 14-10-2017, 09:10 PM   #26
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Adam might have thought he was in charge. lol.
God putting Satan/talking serpent in the garden made her in charge.

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Old 14-10-2017, 09:56 PM   #27
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Did God warn Adam that he had put Satan or the talking serpent with Eve, who could not possibly resist God's own power of deception flowing through Satan?

Another glitch to your ideas is that without the knowledge of good and evil a person cannot desire anything and without desire there is no free will.

Skip to about the 38 min. mark and listen to this Rabbi tell you about the Jewish myth and the creation of desire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAJkiUHizhk

You are bright enough to recognize the truth of what she will tell you.

Regards
DL
Yes but Adam was not helpless - he was an adult that knew good from bad he was taught all of that. All Satan did was talk to them. They chose to rebel against God.

Do you allow your children to do things even though they may fail?
How can they learn and how can you trust them if you don't let them free?

They had a choice as did Satan - maybe he was hoping Satan would see what he had created and change his opinion too - he never got rid of Satan - that would be truly controlling - to take away free will and choice.
People say God should extinguish Satan - but that would make him an evil God. They all had a choice between good and evil - they were warned and taught to choose good - all of them including Satan.
If God got rid of Satan then you should be more concerned.
He threw him out of Heaven - but he wants him to change or he wouldn't keep giving him chances - I think that proves he is loving not evil.

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Old 15-10-2017, 09:37 AM   #28
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Adults are telling my child that drinking is a 'rite of passage' and his mates are telling him that drinking makes life more fun and he is missing out.
The truth is that no-one has ever had a better life because of alcohol. In fact it destroys lives and creates illness in the mind and body.

Yet there is a little truth in that it makes people happy as it takes away the pain - for a while - and ,makes you feel more confident - until it starts creating more pain than you originally had.

If he wants to know the truth he might trust his friends and adults - yet he can look it up online or go on his own personal knowledge and find out the truth himself - which he has done.

Now Eden was similar in that they knew they could trust God as so far he had looked after them and provided them with everything they needed.
The snake - they did not know well - but his argument seemed plausible as it had a bit of truth in it.
But did they get to know him better? See where he lived? Ask his friends if he could be trusted?What his angle was? No.
So they were not that bright then.

Same with teenagers - they may personally know an alcoholic and know the dangers but they will still want to make their own mistakes and try stuff out for themselves. Maybe they want to rebel against their parents.

Free will means that people do stupid stuff sometimes - and learn from their mistakes if they are lucky enough to still be around to do so.

I think God did everything he could to warn them of the dangers.
But he wanted them to have free will. If they didn't have free will they would have been safe from harm.
Maybe what they didn't realise is that to have free will is to already be like God.
But they didn't use their brains they just went straight for that apple - if it's survival of the fittest - Adam and Eve weren't going to be the Sherlock Holmes of humans -so they were flawed long before they met that snake with stupidity and maybe naivety lol.
I understand the context but for me it comes back to one thing - that passage was written in such a way to discourage people seeking guidance independently of the Old Testament.

Everyone has the latent potential to be fully-realised divinity but before that, we have to make mistakes and learn. The innate wisdom to do exactly the right thing at the right moment isn't something that we have by default by virtue of being born as humans - we have to learn from others first, just like babies and children do, and it's a lifelong process.

It's great if someone knows that going out and getting drunk all the time isn't right for them, but some people unfortunately have to learn the hard way.
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Old 15-10-2017, 02:54 PM   #29
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Yes but Adam was not helpless - he was an adult that knew good from bad he was taught all of that.
You do not know how to read Genesis if you think that as scriptures are clear that he was not an adult. Adults know when they are naked.

Further, how can Adam know good from bed when he did not know good and evil because he had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Perhaps I was pre-mature in thinking you were bright.

Quote:
All Satan did was talk to them. They chose to rebel against God.
Satan never spoke to Adam and seeking knowledge that moves one closer to God is hardly rebelling against him. It was perhaps a rebellion against a command that basically says remain as bright as a brick, which we should all rebel against.

Quote:
Do you allow your children to do things even though they may fail?
Yes. A self-taught lesson is sometimes the best as it allows the child to dither things out for themselves and that lesson is more rewarding for the child than rote learning.

Quote:
How can they learn and how can you trust them if you don't let them free?
Exactly, and for God to punish them for doing the right thing would be quite wrong.

Quote:
They had a choice as did Satan -
Listen to that Rabbi again for the first and recognize that without the knowledge of good and evil, no intelligent choice is possible.
Quote:

maybe he was hoping Satan would see what he had created and change his opinion too -
Satan is a her and since God used her to educate A & E, I doubt that he would want to change her mind.

Quote:
he never got rid of Satan - that would be truly controlling - to take away free will and choice.
Exactly why he put her in Eden. Right?

Quote:
People say God should extinguish Satan - but that would make him an evil God.
Then they have not dithered out why God created her and gave her the power to deceive us all. They find it easier to second guess God and see him as making a mistake.

Quote:
They all had a choice between good and evil - they were warned and taught to choose good - all of them including Satan.
Now you are just trying to justify your own wrong views.

Quote:
If God got rid of Satan then you should be more concerned.
For sure.

Quote:
He threw him out of Heaven - but he wants him to change or he wouldn't keep giving him chances - I think that proves he is loving not evil.
She was cast out for being evil according to Christians who do mot understand the Eden myth.

Like you, I see her worth. That is why many name her Sofia which represents wisdom.

You seem conflicted in your thinking.

Was Eden our fall or our elevation?

Regards
DL
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Old 15-10-2017, 03:10 PM   #30
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The melding of the minds.


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Old 15-10-2017, 03:43 PM   #31
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I like Watts and even use some of his works but to give a link without your synopsis is not a good way to have people follow your link.

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Old 16-10-2017, 01:37 PM   #32
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Did God warn Adam that he had put Satan or the talking serpent with Eve, who could not possibly resist God's own power of deception flowing through Satan?

Another glitch to your ideas is that without the knowledge of good and evil a person cannot desire anything and without desire there is no free will.

Skip to about the 38 min. mark and listen to this Rabbi tell you about the Jewish myth and the creation of desire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAJkiUHizhk

You are bright enough to recognize the truth of what she will tell you.

Regards
DL
Maybe God wasn't that worried about anything that Satan could say or do - until he had sex with Eve and then Adam - that answers all the questions.
Lots of writings in the Bible are metaphorical so this could also be.
It answers why we are born sinners.
And why God found a way to let us back into Heaven - maybe some of us are Cains line - some Abel's - by now it matters not as we are all mixed together.
It also answers why God allows Satan to have communication with people here. (He's related?)

I know this theory has been out there a long time and it sits uncomfortable with a lot of people - but lots of people get talked into doing things they regret later
and only pregnancy tends to make it more difficult to deal with ...
maybe God was angry - maybe he had a right to be...
and maybe he calmed down later and sent Moses and Jesus to sort it...

Maybe a few of us have less ability to communicate with God and have less empathy because those lesser genes were passed down to us by Satan.
Satan had an ability to appear like an Angel we are told. But we do not know if Angels have sex organs or even how God created man. But we are in his image.

Lots of maybe's - that's why I give up on religion - you can make Holy books whatever belief system you want -
I just try to be a good person.
We are born knowing choosing good gives you an easier life - the rest you can argue about until you eventually die.
When people speak of Satan they give you the impression that he is a liar and he lives in a nasty place - you don't need to tell people about the Bible you need to warn them about the people Satan lives in today.

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Old 16-10-2017, 02:26 PM   #33
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Maybe God wasn't that worried about anything that Satan could say or do - until he had sex with Eve and then Adam - that answers all the questions.
Lots of writings in the Bible are metaphorical so this could also be.
It answers why we are born sinners.
And why God found a way to let us back into Heaven - maybe some of us are Cains line - some Abel's - by now it matters not as we are all mixed together.
It also answers why God allows Satan to have communication with people here. (He's related?)

I know this theory has been out there a long time and it sits uncomfortable with a lot of people - but lots of people get talked into doing things they regret later
and only pregnancy tends to make it more difficult to deal with ...
maybe God was angry - maybe he had a right to be...
and maybe he calmed down later and sent Moses and Jesus to sort it...

Maybe a few of us have less ability to communicate with God and have less empathy because those lesser genes were passed down to us by Satan.
Satan had an ability to appear like an Angel we are told. But we do not know if Angels have sex organs or even how God created man. But we are in his image.

Lots of maybe's - that's why I give up on religion - you can make Holy books whatever belief system you want -
I just try to be a good person.
We are born knowing choosing good gives you an easier life - the rest you can argue about until you eventually die.
When people speak of Satan they give you the impression that he is a liar and he lives in a nasty place - you don't need to tell people about the Bible you need to warn them about the people Satan lives in today.
Can you explain the bit in bold above please, i'm confused. Who had sex with Eve and then Adam? God or Satan? Both?
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Old 16-10-2017, 03:37 PM   #34
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Can you explain the bit in bold above please, i'm confused. Who had sex with Eve and then Adam? God or Satan? Both?
It was and still is two lovers in one body, gives and takes if you know what I mean.
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Old 16-10-2017, 07:31 PM   #35
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Can you explain the bit in bold above please, i'm confused. Who had sex with Eve and then Adam? God or Satan? Both?
Well whatever Eve did Adam also took a bite of...

But if it is or isn't metaphorical - if God had kept Satan out of the garden he still would have been like an overprotective parent - they had been taught about good and bad - to survive you need to allow your children to live independantly.

Maybe there are more entities out there so even if we were protected against Satan would we then never have to learn about bad things?
Do bad things not exist without Satan?

And Satan was created with an ability to be good or evil - so it's not just him that they had to be warned about - any of the Angels (or other entities) could be a threat .

Would removing Satan from the equation have removed the threat of evil?
Maybe not. He had followers. He learned his behaviour from somewhere.
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Old 16-10-2017, 07:44 PM   #36
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Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Scripture are clear. Sin and death entered this world through Adam, and he was thus to blame for original sin.

Yet God rewarded Adam with dominion over Eve even though Eve was not responsible for sin and death entering the world. Gen3:16 and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This shows God continuing the policy of punishing the innocent instead of the guilty that is shown in scriptures. 1Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

God seems to be rewarding Adam for sin while punishing Eve for the events in Eden even though she was innocent of sin as she did not have any evil intent and was deceived by Satan, a force that she could not possibly resist thanks to God giving Satan the power to deceive the whole world after God put Satan in Eden with Eve.

If making man ruler over women that was an error, it would help explain the 5,000 years of war we have had to endure with undeserving men as rulers.

Gnostic Christianity, a Universalist belief system, believes in full equality for all souls. Christianity obviously does not believe in equality if it preaches that men are to perpetually enjoy ruling over women. Not to mention the inequality of gays.

Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve and thus punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Regards
DL
Even at a young age I questioned the story of a woman being created from a man's rib! I supposed in a patriarchal society where the men are insecure narcissists they couldn't have come from a vagina!! Oh heavens! We couldn't have that! No the one where a woman was created from a man's rib, and the woman is inferior and subservient is much better! Yeah lets go wit that! This way man is first of course! Woman is second and taken from the man by a supreme being....wait, another man no less!!! Oh yeah this just keeps getting better and better!!

The entire thing is a made up piece of crap from someone, a man jealous and insecure about his surroundings scared of losing his momma so bad he has to control her and how all women came to be!! Such an obvious case of over compensation it's not even funny!
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Old 17-10-2017, 01:11 AM   #37
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well funnily enough (or not), if you were going to clone someone you would do it from the marrow in their rib, but that could just be coincidence.

and that could mean aliens made us, but imo I don't really like stories that say aliens made us like that. personally I don't believe them and they are quite limiting imo.
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