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Old 16-03-2009, 05:57 AM   #1
manz900
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Default Are human beings real?

David Icke claims the material world is fake or not real. Does this mean that human appearances are also fake? What I mean by that is the physical body just and illusion? If so then what do we all look like? What are we and were are we? Are physical body's just impressions of the soul or something dealing with the matrix?
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Old 16-03-2009, 06:04 AM   #2
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This is what Ramana Maharshi (and Advaita-Vedanta) has to say:
-------

This is an ancient Hindu doctrine which states that the creation of the world never happened at all. It is a complete denial of all causality in the physical world. Sri Ramana endorsed this view by saying that it is the jnani's (Man who is Self-realised) experience that nothing ever comes into existence or ceases to be because the Self alone exists as the sole unchanging reality. It is a corollary of this theory that time, space, cause and effect, essential components of all creation theories, exist only in the minds of ajnanis (ignorant) and that the experience of the Self reveals their non-existence.


This theory is not a denial of the reality of the world, only of the creative process which brought it into existence. Speaking from his own experience Sri Ramana said that the jnani is aware that the world is real, not as an assemblage of interacting matter and energy, but as an uncaused appearance in the Self. He enlarged on this by saying that because the real nature or substratum of this appearance is identical with the beingness of the Self, it necessarily partakes of its reality. That is to say, the world is not real to the jnani simply because it appears, but only because the real nature of the appearance is inseparable from the Self.


The ajnani on the other hand, is totally unaware of the unitary nature and source of the world and, as a consequence, his mind constructs an illusory world of separate interacting objects by persistently misinterpreting the sense-impressions it receives. Sri Ramana pointed out that this view of the world has no more reality than a dream since it superimposes a creation of the mind on the reality of the Self. He summarised the difference between the jnani's and the ajnani's standpoint by saying that the world is unreal if it is perceived by the mind as a collection of discrete objects and real when it is directly experienced as an appearance in the Self.

Source: http://www.kheper.net/topics/Vedanta..._creation.html
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Old 16-03-2009, 01:22 PM   #3
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This whole thing of the world being fake or an illusion is very misleading. It implies a division - that if the world is an illusion there must be something else that is real.

What is illusion is what we think about the world (which includes ourselves). So for instance, it's not that the physical body itself is an illusion, it is the word and idea "physical body" that is false. That idea separates you from your environment (which you otherwise would be one with) because using thought you have created a shell around "your body" which automatically brings into play "other bodies and objects". Naturally, this thought of "my body" is self-protective and starts to project itself outwards. So we start with "my body", then we say "my family", "my possessions", "my city", "my country". Then when we come up against others with the same idea there is bound to be conflict.

Without the initial knowledge and thought of "my body" you are endless. Your hand or leg seems no more "yours" than anything else around you. When the naming of all objects, including your own body, stops, what are you left with? It is the naming through thought that is illusion.

So in that sense, what the phrase "the world is an illusion" really means is the word "world" is an idea itself and it is that which is illusion. When all the naming of objects around you stops, the "world" itself also disappears because what now can be said about it?

This is also the true meaning of "the end of the world" and "the end times" mentioned in the Bible. It doesn't literally mean the physical world is going to disappear or that there will be a catastrophe - although it's possible - but it is referring to a time when our idea of the world is no longer and we will simply LIVE.

Last edited by sevenworlds; 16-03-2009 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 16-03-2009, 06:57 PM   #4
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David Bohm talks about this in his book "wholeness and the implicate order", and says our whole language structure regarding us and our world needs reworking.

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Old 16-03-2009, 07:00 PM   #5
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Many people get this really mixed up...


Its something that will always have many different meanings to many people...

Some people think "Hey this isnt real what Im seeing does not exist is just false matter"

Some people like me think that this world is an illusion...from the truth the true nature of mankind and what we were destined to be...

Take a look around we have systems for everything, system on top of system governments on top of governments and it strays the human self away from the true nature of reality.


This life is an illusion none of this means anything, we as human beings have destroyed our minds and our bodies with this modern day system in which we live in.


That my friends is what Illusionary means.
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Old 21-03-2009, 09:05 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unbornawakened View Post
This is what Ramana Maharshi (and Advaita-Vedanta) has to say:
-------

This is an ancient Hindu doctrine which states that the creation of the world never happened at all. It is a complete denial of all causality in the physical world. Sri Ramana endorsed this view by saying that it is the jnani's (Man who is Self-realised) experience that nothing ever comes into existence or ceases to be because the Self alone exists as the sole unchanging reality. It is a corollary of this theory that time, space, cause and effect, essential components of all creation theories, exist only in the minds of ajnanis (ignorant) and that the experience of the Self reveals their non-existence.


This theory is not a denial of the reality of the world, only of the creative process which brought it into existence. Speaking from his own experience Sri Ramana said that the jnani is aware that the world is real, not as an assemblage of interacting matter and energy, but as an uncaused appearance in the Self. He enlarged on this by saying that because the real nature or substratum of this appearance is identical with the beingness of the Self, it necessarily partakes of its reality. That is to say, the world is not real to the jnani simply because it appears, but only because the real nature of the appearance is inseparable from the Self.


The ajnani on the other hand, is totally unaware of the unitary nature and source of the world and, as a consequence, his mind constructs an illusory world of separate interacting objects by persistently misinterpreting the sense-impressions it receives. Sri Ramana pointed out that this view of the world has no more reality than a dream since it superimposes a creation of the mind on the reality of the Self. He summarised the difference between the jnani's and the ajnani's standpoint by saying that the world is unreal if it is perceived by the mind as a collection of discrete objects and real when it is directly experienced as an appearance in the Self.

Source: http://www.kheper.net/topics/Vedanta..._creation.html
Good post!
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Old 21-03-2009, 09:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manz900 View Post
David Icke claims the material world is fake or not real. Does this mean that human appearances are also fake? What I mean by that is the physical body just and illusion? If so then what do we all look like? What are we and were are we? Are physical body's just impressions of the soul or something dealing with the matrix?

The physical exists, however reality is a bit trickier to pin down.

The "human" is a collection of overlapping lenses through which the observer (the mind/soul) views it's surroundings. Each lens correlates to a learnt or genetic coded function of the brain such as memory.

As we process the things that our senses witness the info passes through each of these lenses and is disguarded or allowed to proceed to the next lens in the stack.

This serves a dual function, as it allows us to make sense of the world while at the same time freeing us from not having to re-learn functions with each passing moment.

The "illusion" comes when we believe ourself to be a "personality" instead of the outcome of this filtration.

However this lack of this individual does not negate the soul for the following reason.

As the mind/soul observes its surroundings this very act creates reality and so we as the observer create reality on a Quantum level, further fuelling creation.

Now all you have to do is figure out who was the first observer.

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Old 22-03-2009, 10:28 AM   #8
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I think the difference between the illusory and the *real* world only becomes apparent once you kick the bucket.

Ie. this world is, whilst you're in it, despite all the injustices and downright evil that abounds, very much real.. but the illusion is, that with DEATH, it all ends.

Basically you're stuck inside a videogame and only with death do you get to sit on the
couch and choose whether or not to play the same again or do something entirely different.

That's my $.02
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Old 22-03-2009, 01:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themime View Post
The physical exists, however reality is a bit trickier to pin down.

The "human" is a collection of overlapping lenses through which the observer (the mind/soul) views it's surroundings. Each lens correlates to a learnt or genetic coded function of the brain such as memory.

As we process the things that our senses witness the info passes through each of these lenses and is disguarded or allowed to proceed to the next lens in the stack.

This serves a dual function, as it allows us to make sense of the world while at the same time freeing us from not having to re-learn functions with each passing moment.

The "illusion" comes when we believe ourself to be a "personality" instead of the outcome of this filtration.

However this lack of this individual does not negate the soul for the following reason.

As the mind/soul observes its surroundings this very act creates reality and so we as the observer create reality on a Quantum level, further fuelling creation.

Now all you have to do is figure out who was the first observer.

The soul knows also when you die, the soul doesn't have a mind of it's own.
It's smart though. It can give you dreams by accessing the astral plane.
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Old 22-03-2009, 01:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by storm knight View Post
The soul knows also when you die, the soul doesn't have a mind of it's own.
It's smart though. It can give you dreams by accessing the astral plane.

Maybe, after all there could be no greater bliss than total union with the initial observer.


However if you take the theory to it's logical progression then you could say that there is no difference between life and death any more than there is a difference between the number 0 and the number 1 in factorial math.
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Last edited by themime; 22-03-2009 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 23-03-2009, 08:22 AM   #11
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I think the soul has never had a need to protect itself as it is fully aware it is eternal, the mind or ego I think is purely attached to the body we enter. Its like the anti virus or firewall that comes with your computer, looks good but if something really bad turns up in your system, its never gonna be able to deal with it no matter how good it thinks it is.
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Old 28-03-2009, 08:25 PM   #12
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The physical body is a mask
We are all wearing masks
To conceal the love that is inside
Enlightenment is not being fooled by the mask
Seeing through it
Because love is truth, we just forgot that
But we can't not remember
It has to happen
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Old 29-03-2009, 12:51 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fromthatshow View Post
The physical body is a mask
We are all wearing masks
To conceal the love that is inside
Enlightenment is not being fooled by the mask
Seeing through it
Because love is truth, we just forgot that
But we can't not remember
It has to happen
Nicely said
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