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Old 03-08-2016, 08:48 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by empath_ View Post
It is very intriguing! I might give The Bridge a read similar to near-death experiences where the 'dead' patient can 'see' or 'hear' if you like. Adding organ extraction to that is frightening. My mother, who is in no way interested in anything outside the box recently told me that when she had my younger sister her heart had stopped three times. On the third time, she said she heard my voice and others calling her back. Then she was. She has only said this once and is embarrassed by it. This like thousands of other stories back up that something isn't as it seems when a patient is pronounced 'dead' in a hospital
Yep, I mean take someone like Stephen Hawking, for example. If he didn't have that machine connected up to his cheek muscle, he'd have no way of actually communicating that he was anything other than someone in a vegetative state! Yet clearly his mind is as lucid and conscious as anyone else's- it's just that his body doesn't reflect this.

Appearances can be deceptive. To my mind, you're dead once your body has packed in- your heart has stopped, your breathing ceases and 'you' slip away- Elvis has left the building. But in these 'brain-stem death' instances, that hasn't necessarily happened- 'you' could still be in there, whilst your body has temporarily shut up shop to recuperate. Elvis has NOT left the building- and yet you're regarded as 'dead' anyway. Then, because of a box you once ticked (or didn't tick, in the case of presumed consent), you're now being wheeled off into surgery for organ removal minus any anaesthetic!

The fact that heart rate and blood pressure massively increase upon the first incision, and they require paralytic drugs to stop the body from moving, is horrifying! There's also a hugely spiritual argument- if you believe in the notion of an animating lifeforce- call it consciousness or spirit or soul, it would appear that this has not yet left the body of these supposedly 'pretty dead' patients- if it had, then they would indeed be 'dead'- which would leave organ donation null and void.

There is still residual lifeforce within the body, the patient is not dead, and the doctor makes that determination instead. Scary stuff.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:08 PM   #22
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Couple more links:

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"I found your article today very interesting," wrote Angie Romano. "I live just outside of Toledo, Ohio. One of my sisters is a surgical nurse. She told me several years ago she would never want any of her family members to be an organ donor after what she has seen. (We have a brother-in-law alive today because of a kidney transplant he received, so we totally understand the double-edged sword that this presents.) She said that the times when she had been in the surgery room during organ harvesting, she has seen patients in definite pain when the harvesting begins. She said you can see it on their faces and it is horrible. I don't know what the answer is, just that it is a difficult situation. My sister has since transferred to a different hospital where they do not do the same type of trauma level work as was done at the first hospital. It seems like it is a similar situation as hospice care. Another sister is a cardiac nurse. She explained to me how, even though morphine is given to relieve pain in a terminal patient, at some point the medical personnel know that the next dose of morphine will overwhelm the patient's respiratory system and they will die. But we give it to them anyway to keep them comfortable. Modern science is such a blessing, but it comes with so many new sets of moral issues."
http://www.spiritdaily.net/organdonors2.htm

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In other words: brain "death" is not always death.

In fact, the bodies of brain-dead people -- known as "beating-heart cadavers" -- can heal wounds, fight infections, and respond to certain stimuli. Brain-dead pregnant women can gestate a baby. There have been at least twenty-two such documented cases. Healthy babies have been born to them (one pregnant woman was kept alive for 107 days to have her child).

Most people don't realize that "dead" donors are frequently kept on a ventilator so the organs remain fresh. Their hearts are often defibrillated. Their kidneys are treated. They urinate. Fluids are administered to avoid incipient diabetes. It is a new obsession, frets Dr. Michael DeVita of the University of Pittsburgh's Medical Center: recycling the bodies of people who (in his chilling words) are only "pretty dead."

This is very serious spiritual territory.

...And we need to remember one thing, stated by one of the greatest brain surgeons in history: all of the brain may be in the mind, but not all of the mind is in the brain.
http://www.spiritdaily.net/organdonors.htm
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:54 PM   #23
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Well it is a good thing, for the recipient obviously... It just might not prove to be such a good thing for you, when decisions are being made as to whether to keep you alive. The sad truth is that as a donor, you're worth far more dead than alive.

The main point is how doctors are determining a patient's prognosis- obviously if you were actually dead, you'd be a useless candidate for organ donation. So the point is that to be a donor, you have to still be alive. Which means that you could very well be signing your own death warrant, by volunteering for donation.

I studied neuroscience and it's ridiculous to call a patient clinically dead just because their brain stem appears to be compromised- as the research shows, many many patients still have higher cortical activity and many subsequently recover. Many patients also subsequently report having been fully aware of everything going on around them- they were just unable to connect with their bodies to PROVE that they're still 'in there'.

That's the terrifying aspect- that you're conscious and aware but unable to prove it. And once you've been declared 'dead', even though you're actually not dead obviously because your body is still functioning and your heart is still beating etc., but once they say you're dead that's it- as long as your relatives consent, you'll be off for harvesting! With no anaesthetic!! But a muscle relaxant to stop you from thrashing around!!

I've read quite a few accounts of people who've worked in the field and say that knowing what they now know, in terms of just how thorough they are at stripping away everything they can, there's just no way they'd provide their consent for it.

It's about informed consent, and that's what this information's about- we don't like to think about it, but if you're informed of the realities then at least you can make an educated decision for yourself or another family member, instead of succumbing to emotional blackmail.
yeah it's shocking, i was willing to donate my organs when i die for a good cause but if i'm going to be still live like this then no way, jesus.
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Old 03-08-2016, 11:32 PM   #24
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You have to be alive for them to do it. So you also have to already be alive (functional body, not yet dead) for them to make that determination. In other words, you are not dead when that decision is made- you are maybe on life-support, and PRESUMED dead in functional terms (but not necessarily in terms of consciousness, because they don't check for higher brain function!)

Maybe you truly have 'left the building'- but maybe you haven't. No-one can say, because we simply don't understand the intricacies of brain trauma. Either way, you are certainly kept 'alive' once the agreement for donation has been made, up to the point that your heart is removed- could be a few days, could take a week or more. Beep... Beep... Beeeeeeeeep....

It's up to the individual to decide how far they're willing to trust doctors with that medical prognosis.

That's the truth of it. And people should understand that.

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Old 04-08-2016, 12:49 AM   #25
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even though its quite disturbing, they need to keep the organs living. This gives the organ a longer 'shelf life' (for transportation etc...). Muscle relaxant is cheaper than anaesthetic. Self explanatory. As for feeling pain etc., I'd say this is complete conjecture on the OP's part and has to be taken on a case by case basis.

That said, NOT ALL transplants are conducted this way, and yes sometimes they plug you back in to keep the body alive when there is no brain activity.


(Here, blood is the big issue. Families will argue about keeping someone alive a little longer in order for legal documents to be changed. This can take literally gallons of blood per week to keep a 99 yr old alive, when more often than not the same blood could've been used to keep xx folks alive in ER!! (First come first served basis here in BC and Manitoba!!)

I don't carry a card. Never have, never will. Same with blood. It's mine. I'll keep it thanks. However, having lived through the whole BSE in the UK we're not allowed to donate blood, nor organs!! BUT can go on a list if needed AND will body part to blood-line family members is so desired!!)
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Old 04-08-2016, 07:55 AM   #26
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Here's to hoping that a more humane way to get organs comes along, I've read that one day we will be able to 3D print organs for donators and there will be no rejection either, i hope that day comes, organ donation shortages is a real concern for people that need it.

Here is a example of what this kind of technology could bring;
http://www.livescience.com/53721-3d-...ones-ears.html

Stem cell research could also advance this technology further.
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by aurum View Post
You have to be alive for them to do it. So you also have to already be alive (functional body, not yet dead) for them to make that determination. In other words, you are not dead when that decision is made- you are maybe on life-support, and PRESUMED dead in functional terms (but not necessarily in terms of consciousness, because they don't check for higher brain function!)

Maybe you truly have 'left the building'- but maybe you haven't. No-one can say, because we simply don't understand the intricacies of brain trauma. Either way, you are certainly kept 'alive' once the agreement for donation has been made, up to the point that your heart is removed- could be a few days, could take a week or more. Beep... Beep... Beeeeeeeeep....

It's up to the individual to decide how far they're willing to trust doctors with that medical prognosis.

That's the truth of it. And people should understand that.
Plus it is a bit like the chemo thing, because so many kind hearted people think it is the only treatment it is emotionally charged, hence a discussion is very hard to even have, look at Noel Edmonds.

Something like organ donation has to be done exactly right no ifs or buts about it.
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:37 PM   #28
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even though its quite disturbing, they need to keep the organs living. This gives the organ a longer 'shelf life' (for transportation etc...). Muscle relaxant is cheaper than anaesthetic. Self explanatory. As for feeling pain etc., I'd say this is complete conjecture on the OP's part and has to be taken on a case by case basis.

That said, NOT ALL transplants are conducted this way, and yes sometimes they plug you back in to keep the body alive when there is no brain activity.


(Here, blood is the big issue. Families will argue about keeping someone alive a little longer in order for legal documents to be changed. This can take literally gallons of blood per week to keep a 99 yr old alive, when more often than not the same blood could've been used to keep xx folks alive in ER!! (First come first served basis here in BC and Manitoba!!)

I don't carry a card. Never have, never will. Same with blood. It's mine. I'll keep it thanks. However, having lived through the whole BSE in the UK we're not allowed to donate blood, nor organs!! BUT can go on a list if needed AND will body part to blood-line family members is so desired!!)
Regarding the bolded part, this is a pretty big deal though- is it not?! The body certainly exhibits all of the signals commensurate with someone IN PAIN. Pain sensations are also subjective, and poorly understood- someone with a compromised brain stem may well feel pain just as acutely as anybody else- this is why anaesthetists are speaking out about it! Because the supposedly 'dead' patients are showing all of the same clinical markers as a regular live patient who's received insufficient anaesthetic!

Think about that for a minute...
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:40 PM   #29
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Excellent thread, aurum.

I'd really wonder how differently you'd be treated in A&E if you're brought in with some serious injuries....and they discovered your donor card.

Jackpot!

£££ ka-Ching £££
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:50 PM   #30
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Plus it is a bit like the chemo thing, because so many kind hearted people think it is the only treatment it is emotionally charged, hence a discussion is very hard to even have, look at Noel Edmonds.

Something like organ donation has to be done exactly right no ifs or buts about it.
Years ago, I visited an exhibit called Bodyworks- in fact I went twice, once in London and then again in New York. As someone who has studied human and brain anatomy, it's fascinating of course- but at the same time I felt very uneasy about some of the exhibits.

There was a section at the end with fetuses in various stages of gestation- and you have to question whether this is a respectful and appropriate display of human life. What I mean is, supposedly, all of the human exhibits had volunteered their bodies to medical science- but a fetus cannot do so, and moreover, does the person donating their body truly understand the implications of that decision? That they have no say over how their body is subsequently used? There was one exhibit of a woman who'd died in pregnancy and she was plastinated, with her belly cut open exposing the plastinated fetus that had also died. He'd fashioned her in this weird, almost sexualised pose- it was not good. Do you think that woman really intended for her body to be used in that way? I doubt it, somehow.

You have to be careful when making these decisions. It turned out that a lot of the bodies being exhibited perhaps hadn't come from completely ethical sources- China's track record with this is especially horrifying. You can look into that for yourself.

Just know the implications of what you're agreeing to- that's all I'm saying- because in the fine print of organ donation, is the agreement that they can use your body for any other medical 'purposes' should a suitable recipient not be found. There are reports of sperm and eggs being harvested also- so you may be responsible for bringing new life into the world without your knowledge- it's true, I promise you. Always read the small print. So long as people understand what they're doing, that's up to them- but oftentimes people don't, as we know!!

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Old 04-08-2016, 05:55 PM   #31
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Exclamation

Yes I find that disturbing, all you can do is inform though and you have done this, but yeah, disturbing stuff for sure....
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:50 PM   #32
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Aye its shocking the doner organ industry and the money that is involed.
I don't know if your mis-spelling is deliberate there Babooshka ... doner ... as in Kebab... often wondered what the "Elephant's leg" on a rotating spit was actually made of...
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Old 04-08-2016, 11:44 PM   #33
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I opted out of organ donation after manage ment of the donor registry was taken over by Red Cross. I worked for them decades ago and don't doubt that they would take your organs while you are still breathing.

Hadn't thought about the actual specifics of what happens before. In what circumstances could organs be used? If the heart is still beating then your body IS still alive. Sickening. Its been suggested it be made compulsory in this country - Australia - and you would have to opt out. Doctor s are put on a pedestal, but I think the medical profession is full of sick @#$&%!
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Old 30-04-2017, 08:54 PM   #34
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Probably there is no form of torture more commonly inflicted upon the dying than that which is caused by administering stimulants. Such potions have the effect of drawing a departing spirit into its body with the force of a catapult, to remain and to suffer for sometime longer. Investigators of conditions beyond have heard many complaints of such treatment. When it is seen that death must inevitably ensue, let not selfish desire to keep a departing spirit a little longer prompt us to inflict such tortures upon it. The death chamber should be a place of the utmost quiet, a place of peace and of prayer, for at that time, and for three and one-half days after the last breath, the spirit is passing through a Gethsemane and needs all the assistance that can be given. The value of the life that has just been passed depends greatly upon conditions which then prevail about the body; yes even the conditions of its future life are influenced by our attitude during that time, so that if ever we were our brother's keeper in life, we are a thousand times more so at death.

Post-mortem examinations, embalming and cremation during the period mentioned, not only disturb the passing spirit mentally, but are productive of a certain amount of pain, for there is still a slight connection with the discarded vehicle. If sanitary laws require us to prevent decomposition while thus keeping the body for cremation, it may be packed in ice till the three and one-half days have passed. After that time the spirit will not suffer, no matter what happens to the body.
From:

The

Rosicrucian Mysteries

An Elementary Exposition of

Their Secret Teachings

By

Max Heindel

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Old 30-04-2017, 10:56 PM   #35
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Regarding the bolded part, this is a pretty big deal though- is it not?! The body certainly exhibits all of the signals commensurate with someone IN PAIN. Pain sensations are also subjective, and poorly understood- someone with a compromised brain stem may well feel pain just as acutely as anybody else- this is why anaesthetists are speaking out about it! Because the supposedly 'dead' patients are showing all of the same clinical markers as a regular live patient who's received insufficient anaesthetic!

Think about that for a minute...
That might put a slight slant on my post, and thanks for highlighting it.

(But just to play devil's advocate and NOT cause an argument for argument's sake or fall out with folk)

But how do they know the subject is in pain? Could their readings be coincidental?, is there such a thing as a false reading? is it a sign of the spirit leaving the body?, are there different markers for different types of pain?

what if :

they're only in pain for a few minutes, say 10. could we actually debate that for someone to suffer an extra 10 minutes of pain is acceptable in the light that someone else may live, else there would be 2 dead people as opposed to one?

what level of pain are we talking about?, after all physical feeling is absolutely personal and we all have different thresholds to varying types of pain?

would we be willing knowing the donor is alive and in pain for the final 10 minutes on earth to donate ourselves?, watch a loved one fill in a donor card?, watch as a donor is harvested for a loved one?
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Old 30-04-2017, 11:00 PM   #36
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I know that it's a disturbing thing which we don't wish to think about- but holy hell's bells I'm glad I found this out!! I'd always just gone along with the donor thing, thinking I'll be dead anyway, I won't care... But I've now signed the register to opt OUT.

https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/reg...donation-form/

Two car wreck victims arrive at A&E with equal chances of surviving but one is a donor. Who would the doctors choose to keep alive?
The answer is both


I've signed up to be a donor becuase well I'm dead, I don't need my organs and I don't give shit as what will happen to my body before I'm tossed on the fire
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Old 01-05-2017, 02:41 AM   #37
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I have twice experienced being paralysed before being anaesthetised. It is terrifying. You cannot breathe or move at all. Apparently the drugs have all changed now and it can't happen during normal surgery and I was told it is slack practices by the doctor.

My objection is the sale of the organs which happens in some places. That is wrong.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:37 PM   #38
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Bump
One thing I've noticed at DIF is that we don't see many posts that just says 'Bump' but I think this thread deserves a bump for sure. Most horrific.

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Originally Posted by aurum View Post
Regarding the bolded part, this is a pretty big deal though- is it not?! The body certainly exhibits all of the signals commensurate with someone IN PAIN. Pain sensations are also subjective, and poorly understood- someone with a compromised brain stem may well feel pain just as acutely as anybody else- this is why anaesthetists are speaking out about it! Because the supposedly 'dead' patients are showing all of the same clinical markers as a regular live patient who's received insufficient anaesthetic!

Think about that for a minute...
Do you think there should be a petition to review organ donor process?

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Originally Posted by aurum View Post
Years ago, I visited an exhibit called Bodyworks- in fact I went twice, once in London and then again in New York. As someone who has studied human and brain anatomy, it's fascinating of course- but at the same time I felt very uneasy about some of the exhibits.

There was a section at the end with fetuses in various stages of gestation- and you have to question whether this is a respectful and appropriate display of human life. What I mean is, supposedly, all of the human exhibits had volunteered their bodies to medical science- but a fetus cannot do so, and moreover, does the person donating their body truly understand the implications of that decision? That they have no say over how their body is subsequently used? There was one exhibit of a woman who'd died in pregnancy and she was plastinated, with her belly cut open exposing the plastinated fetus that had also died. He'd fashioned her in this weird, almost sexualised pose- it was not good. Do you think that woman really intended for her body to be used in that way? I doubt it, somehow.

You have to be careful when making these decisions. It turned out that a lot of the bodies being exhibited perhaps hadn't come from completely ethical sources- China's track record with this is especially horrifying. You can look into that for yourself.

Just know the implications of what you're agreeing to- that's all I'm saying- because in the fine print of organ donation, is the agreement that they can use your body for any other medical 'purposes' should a suitable recipient not be found. There are reports of sperm and eggs being harvested also- so you may be responsible for bringing new life into the world without your knowledge- it's true, I promise you. Always read the small print. So long as people understand what they're doing, that's up to them- but oftentimes people don't, as we know!!
Here is the massive spiritual implication but not many people have time to investigate spiritual side of life that they end up doing something they shouldn't! In certain culture, human remains are used to call back on that person's spirit. So your dead body/carcass isn't just that cells which died and dried up. In another words, it is is a link. Just made me wonder further.... if you have kids, your DNA lives on. So even if you didn't have kids but have donated your sperm/eggs, then there will be a person(s) somewhere keeping you alive or shall I say maintaining the connection to the 3D world.

Say No and exits the Matrix!

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Old 06-01-2018, 12:01 AM   #39
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One thing I've noticed at DIF is that we don't see many posts that just says 'Bump' but I think this thread deserves a bump for sure. Most horrific.

Say No and exits the Matrix!
Bump






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Old 06-01-2018, 01:36 AM   #40
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Trump put a Pakistani surgeon on his Executive Order. He is said to have stolen organs from kidnapped people in Pakistan.


https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm0243

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Mukhtar Hamid Shah

Shah is a Pakistani surgeon specializing in kidney transplants who Pakistani police believe to be involved in kidnapping, wrongful confinement, and the removal of and trafficking in human organs. As an owner of the Kidney Centre in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, Shah was involved in the kidnapping and detention of, and removal of kidneys from, Pakistani laborers. Shah was arrested by Pakistani authorities in connection with an October 2016 incident in which 24 individuals from Punjab were found to be held against their will. Impoverished and illiterate Pakistanis from the countryside were reportedly lured to Rawalpindi with the promise of a job, and imprisoned for weeks. Doctors from the Kidney Centre were allegedly planning to steal their kidneys in order to sell them for a large profit. Police state that one of the accused arrested in connection with the events estimated that more than 400 people were imprisoned in the apartment at various times.
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