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Old 28-11-2011, 06:34 PM   #41
hurt4ever1
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Originally Posted by itruth View Post
People are guilty of the crimes they have committed, but people are not guilty just based on hear say or ugly rumor with no proof.




Hey, maybe there is a "tiny sect" of your own people who do and have done the worst things anyone could even imagine, but no one is saying is all of your nations, right? So when we say "austrians" keep their daughters chained in basements and use them as sex slaves, we don't mean austrians or germans, or any other genetic group that you may belong to ES, ok.



So what are yo saying? are you saying that every filth imagine doesn't take place in your own homelands ever since they became your ancestors homelands? I wonder what i would i would find if i dug into your ancestors files? I am convinced that what i would would be horrific, maybe you wouldn't take offence if i subtly implied that you are also they?



I am no jew, but it sounds like what you are claiming is a classic case of projection.

"An example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or "projecting," those same faults onto another person or object." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection




If judaism was anything like islam, the jews would have killed the muslims the moment they refused to become jews, but this is not the case.

Narrated Ubadah ibn as-Samit: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to stand up for a funeral until the corpse was placed in the grave. A learned Jew (once) passed him and said: This is how we do. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) sat down and said: Sit down and act differently from them. (Book #20, Hadith #3170) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...rch_word=exact

SHARIA LAW IS NOTHING LIKE JUDASIM.


LIKE I ASKED YOU BEFORE WHICH YOU NEVER ANSWERED, I CAN SHOW YOU WERE YOUR ANCESTORS HAVE MASSACRED JEWS, CAN YOU SHOW ME THE JEWS DOING THE SAME? WERE THE COMMUNIST KILLERS WHO YOU SAY SLAUGHTERED YOUR PEOPEL ALL JEWS? HOW MANY OF THE KILLERS WERE NON JEWS, EUROPEANS?

“Among the thousands of jews and judaized arabs in arabia, less than 10 of them were willing to convert to the cult of muhummad even upon the pain of death” IQ AL Rasooli http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx5dw9MYHrk

Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas said [that before Islam], "When (an Ansar) woman would not bear children who would live, she would vow that if she gives birth to a child who remains alive, she would raise him as a Jew. Tafsir Ibn Kathir



Thats another lie.

Show us where jews "preach death and hatred towards us Goyim". And then i will show you your own people preaching death and hatred towards blacks, indians, non nationals, you name it.



Maybe i should open up a thread and call it 'german ritual murder of children'. I BET I COULD FIND ENOUGH INFORMATION TO MAKE A CASE LIKE YOU HAVE MADE YOURS, BUT I BELIEVE THE ONE THAT I COULD BRING WOULD BE MORE DEVESTATING FOR ALL CONCERNED.

I could also make a thread called 'ES people (germans, brits, or whatever) LIKE TO RAPE ANIMALS'.

AND I COULD MAKE A DEVASTATING PRESENTATION. But, is it worth offending many others just to land a devastating strike against you ES?

It would be nothing more than a fair exchange, using 100% of ES logic

You talk as if your ancestors are so wonderful, but i could BURY THEM using stuff from their own books, and i could BURY your culture as well. You think about that. It wouldn't be hard at all, but it would serve no real ultimate purpose other than creating a feeding frenzy for those who would love see your culture destroyed.
This sounds dramatically like my Native American Ancestors who were fighting to maintain their culture. Who was it that was attempting to steal it from them?
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Old 28-11-2011, 06:56 PM   #42
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This sounds dramatically like my Native American Ancestors who were fighting to maintain their culture. Who was it that was attempting to steal it from them?
You would be better off asking eternal spirit, he should know more about what his people have got up to in history.


For sure, what happened to the native americans is a travesty. But there are other things to consider.

At the time of the discovery of the americas the spanish were just coming out of 800 years occupation by muslims. At this same time the muslims were also cruising the seas. Do you think it would have been better for the world in general if the spanish and the other westerners left the america's on sympathy towards the natives, only for the muslims to arrive, enslaving, raping robbing the native american KAFARA, and then sending them to europe to destroy europe, while at the same time obliterating the native culture ALTOGETHER from the pages of history? If they did, I seriously doubt that we would even be having this conversation because the world would have fallen into perpetual war and slavery without room for any advancements is science and freedoms.
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Old 28-11-2011, 07:20 PM   #43
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You would be better off asking eternal spirit, he should know more about what his people have got up to in history.


For sure, what happened to the native americans is a travesty. But there are other things to consider.

At the time of the discovery of the americas the spanish were just coming out of 800 years occupation by muslims. At this same time the muslims were also cruising the seas. Do you think it would have been better for the world in general if the spanish and the other westerners left the america's on sympathy towards the natives, only for the muslims to arrive, enslaving, raping robbing the native american KAFARA, and then sending them to europe to destroy europe, while at the same time obliterating the native culture ALTOGETHER from the pages of history? If they did, I seriously doubt that we would even be having this conversation because the world would have fallen into perpetual war and slavery without room for any advancements is science and freedoms.

Are you saying that it is better to enslaved, raped, and robbed by Christians as opposed to Muslims?


The world has fallen into perpetual war and slavery.
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Old 28-11-2011, 07:27 PM   #44
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Have you read the protocols of the learnered elders of zion itruth?

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=191647

There is a link to it in this thread.
I have news for you. we are not ruled by green lizard men, we are ruled by Jews.
err........joey........you've been had....the Protocols of the Elderz of Zion is complete bullshit.........and no....the Jews did not kill 100 million Christians and the Jews did not kill Jesus.....you can blame the Romans/Italians for that.......


Quote:
....................If anti-Semitism were only an individual psychological phenomenon, it would be similar to other forms of discrimination and hostility; however, in the modern world anti-Semitism takes on a different hue. Various groups have used it for political purposes. We can trace clear attempts to use psychological hostility – which, it seems, has deep religious roots – to forward political aims. Thus, modern anti-Semitism was born, and acquired a more and more tragic and satanic form. The widespread use of this technique began in Czarist Russia, in the struggle to smother those revolutionary attempts that finally toppled the Czarist rule.

Through the Czarist secret police, the rulers attempted to identify revolutionary action with the activities of the Jews. The rulers of Czarist Russia fought against certain phenomena, and in this fight they created a kind of equation, which was supposed to prove their claims. The Czarist secret police created one of the documents that became an anti-Semitic classic, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." This book reveals the so-called secret plan weaved by the leaders of the Jews, to take over the entire world. "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" became a holy book among the anti-Semites.

"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was simply a rewriting of a French book that attributed ambitions to take over the world to Napoleon. This booklet is called "a dialogue in hell between Machiavelli and Montasque," or "Politics of the Nineteenth Century." These accusations were not at all directed towards the Jews and Judaism. However, the dialogue was adopted and transformed into the protocols of an imaginary group whose members were the world leaders of Judaism, attempting to take over the politics of various European countries.

Even the Czar himself, Nikolai the Second, although far from bearing the Jews any fond feelings, saw that the book was a fake and opposed its publication. Despite this, the first Russian edition appeared in 1905. A number of years later, other editions began to appear. Some of the editions were altered and corrected in order to make it possible to accuse the Jews of various catastrophes that took place between one edition and another. At various opportunities, it became the topic of public court cases, in which the book was proved to be a forgery. However, this of course did not check the book's growing popularity, particularly in the wake of the Nazi influence. The book influenced various writers, who were mistakenly taken in and convinced of its authenticity. Thus, for example, Henry Ford was inspired by "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" to write "The International Jew," in which he continues these accusations. Various other books were written in its wake until recent years.

This is an example of a lie and forgery that the power of truth could not effectually surmount. This abominable book became a justification of Nazism and the genocide that followed in its wake. This is an example of the phenomena that we must deal with. Forgeries spread throughout the world, and people are convinced.
and no joey...we are not controlled by little green reppies...............or Jews......by by liars and haters................
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Old 28-11-2011, 08:09 PM   #45
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Are you saying that it is better to enslaved, raped, and robbed by Christians as opposed to Muslims?


The world has fallen into perpetual war and slavery.
No I am not saying that at all. If you think that is what i was saying then i would say that you have an understanding problem.

I am a christian, and i very well know that the bible condemns murder, robbery, rape, etc.. So therefore, those ones who called themselves christians while they were doing the OPPOSITE to what christians should do cannot be christians by definition, its as simple as that. Those people were thugs following their own wimms. Whereas, the muslims, WHILE RAPING KILLING AND ENSLAVING would be defined TRUE MUSLIMS ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM, and this is why the native culture and MEMORY would have been obliterated from world history. Today, the native story is told with shame upon europeans, yet, if it was the muslims who CONQUERED the americas, the native american KAFARA history would become a preiod of "JAHILIYAH". Jahiliyah is a time and place of ignorance (ie, before islam) and is something THAT IS FORBIDDEN FOR MUSLIMS TO LOOK UPON WITH RESPECT. We see this REALITY when we see islamists blowing up buddist statues.

Quote:
The world has fallen into perpetual war and slavery.
Well I disagree. Many people at this site have not known war in their lifetime, and none i would guess have known slavery, that is unless they are a black african who was enslaved by muslims.

Quote:
KUWAIT: A female political activist and former parliamentary candidate has recommended the introduction of legislation to legalize the provision of ENSLAVED FEMALE CONCUBINES for Muslim men in Kuwait in a bid, she says, to protect those men from committing adultery or corruption.
http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news...NzQ3NzY0MzE%3D

Salwa al-Mutairi wants non-Muslim women captured in war made available to Muslim men, so that the men can be “protected from adultery.” She affirmed: “For example, in the Chechnya war, surely there are female Russian captives. http://frontpagemag.com/2011/06/10/t...d-slave-trade/

IT'S OK TO HAVE SEX SLAVES (according to islam) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swHYHJhR1sg

Quote:
The world has fallen into perpetual war and slavery.
I noticed that you kept out the very next words"

"without room for any advancements is science and freedoms.

I am assuming that you recognize this reality?

If you do recognize it, then you are confirming what i am saying.
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Old 28-11-2011, 09:20 PM   #46
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No I am not saying that at all. If you think that is what i was saying then i would say that you have an understanding problem.

I am a christian, and i very well know that the bible condemns murder, robbery, rape, etc.. So therefore, those ones who called themselves christians while they were doing the OPPOSITE to what christians should do cannot be christians by definition, its as simple as that. Those people were thugs following their own wimms. Whereas, the muslims, WHILE RAPING KILLING AND ENSLAVING would be defined TRUE MUSLIMS ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM, and this is why the native culture and MEMORY would have been obliterated from world history. Today, the native story is told with shame upon europeans, yet, if it was the muslims who CONQUERED the americas, the native american KAFARA history would become a preiod of "JAHILIYAH". Jahiliyah is a time and place of ignorance (ie, before islam) and is something THAT IS FORBIDDEN FOR MUSLIMS TO LOOK UPON WITH RESPECT. We see this REALITY when we see islamists blowing up buddist statues.



Well I disagree. Many people at this site have not known war in their lifetime, and none i would guess have known slavery, that is unless they are a black african who was enslaved by muslims.






I noticed that you kept out the very next words"

"without room for any advancements is science and freedoms.

I am assuming that you recognize this reality?

If you do recognize it, then you are confirming what i am saying.
You say: therefore, those ones who called themselves christians while they were doing the OPPOSITE to what christians should do cannot be christians by definition

So anyone who sins cannot be a Christian by definition?
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Old 28-11-2011, 10:34 PM   #47
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You say: therefore, those ones who called themselves christians while they were doing the OPPOSITE to what christians should do cannot be christians by definition

So anyone who sins cannot be a Christian by definition?
NO, i am not saying that either.

A christian recognizes that they themselves are sinners, therefore the seek redemption through christ. No one ever said that christians do not sin, BUT, there is a huge difference between sinning as part of their human weakness, and robbing raping and killing. These things, according to the christian scriptures are ABOMINATIONS:

Rev 21:8
But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."


If someone calling themselves an environmentalists SYSTEMATICALLY pollutes and poisons the earth can they really be an environmentalist according to THE ACTUAL DEFINITION of the word 'environmentalist'? OF COURSE THEY CAN'T BE.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity


iniquity = gross injustice or wickedness.

Clearly they are not christians according to the bible.

So there you have it.
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Old 28-11-2011, 10:47 PM   #48
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NO, i am not saying that either.

A christian recognizes that they themselves are sinners, therefore the seek redemption through christ. No one ever said that christians do not sin, BUT, there is a huge difference between sinning as part of their human weakness, and robbing raping and killing. These things, according to the christian scriptures are ABOMINATIONS:

Rev 21:8
But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."


If someone calling themselves an environmentalists SYSTEMATICALLY pollutes and poisons the earth can they really be an environmentalist according to THE ACTUAL DEFINITION of the word 'environmentalist'? OF COURSE THEY CAN'T BE.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity


iniquity = gross injustice or wickedness.

Clearly they are not christians according to the bible.

So there you have it.
No one is a Christian according to the bible, Christianity is not biblical.


This is typical "No True Scotsman fallacy"


"No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X."



"Religious

With respect to religion, the fallacy is well used, often even overused. Religious apologists will repeatedly try to use the No True Scotsman argument to distance themselves from more extreme or fundamentalist groups but this does not prevent such extremists actually being religious - they themselves would certainly argue otherwise. Moderate Muslim leaders, for example, are well known for declaring Islamic extremists as "not true Muslims" as Islam is a religion of peace. Similarly, moderate Christians, such as those in Europe, sometimes aghast when viewing their right-wing counterparts in the US, immediately declare them "not true Christians", even though they believe in the same God and get their belief system of it from the same book. Modern pagans do it all the time, perhaps even more than other religions, due to the fact that there is no agreed-on orthodoxy for the whole group, with some well-established practices in one setting being considered icky in others. Silver Ravenwolf, one of the best selling "leaders" of neopagans, has done this with multiple ancient, well-established practices."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman


Why do you apply different standards for Christians than you do Muslims?

Did you miss the "OT god" having his people kill others because they did not believe in him? How is this different than what the 'Christians' did to the Native Americans and what you say that Muslims did to the Jews?

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Old 29-11-2011, 05:23 AM   #49
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No one is a Christian according to the bible, Christianity is not biblical.


This is typical "No True Scotsman fallacy"


"No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X."



"Religious

With respect to religion, the fallacy is well used, often even overused. Religious apologists will repeatedly try to use the No True Scotsman argument to distance themselves from more extreme or fundamentalist groups but this does not prevent such extremists actually being religious - they themselves would certainly argue otherwise. Moderate Muslim leaders, for example, are well known for declaring Islamic extremists as "not true Muslims" as Islam is a religion of peace. Similarly, moderate Christians, such as those in Europe, sometimes aghast when viewing their right-wing counterparts in the US, immediately declare them "not true Christians", even though they believe in the same God and get their belief system of it from the same book. Modern pagans do it all the time, perhaps even more than other religions, due to the fact that there is no agreed-on orthodoxy for the whole group, with some well-established practices in one setting being considered icky in others. Silver Ravenwolf, one of the best selling "leaders" of neopagans, has done this with multiple ancient, well-established practices."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman


Why do you apply different standards for Christians than you do Muslims?

Did you miss the "OT god" having his people kill others because they did not believe in him? How is this different than what the 'Christians' did to the Native Americans and what you say that Muslims did to the Jews?

Lets look at your own fallacies they you have presented.

1) i never said or implied the christians do not sin, or that christians are perfect, YET YOU ATTACKED THAT FALSE POSITION thinking that you were somehow refuting me. Thats known as a strawman fallacy:
Quote:
A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, twisting his words or by means of [false] assumptions.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2] Generally, the straw man is a highly exaggerated[citation needed] or over-simplified version of the opponent's original statement, which has been distorted to the point of absurdity. This exaggerated or distorted statement is thus easily argued against, but is a misrepresentation of the opponent's actual statement.
And thats all you have done. You have not even attempted to deal with my argument.

EVERYTHING I SAID IS 100% ACCURATE AND STILL STANDS.

I showed you from the bible that just a person calling themselves christians is NOT ENUFF, a person is judged on their works. The works that you presented, I SHOWED FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES THAT THOSE ACTS ARE CONDEMNED. You can accuse me of any fallacy you want. PROVING THAT IT IS A FALLACY IS IMPOSSIBLE, because it is no fallacy and i have produced the ONLY authority THAT COUNTS, which are the christians scriptures WHich ALONE DETERMINE WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS, AND WHO A CHRISTIAN IS. Just like the environmentalist manifesto/rule book determines what an environmentalists is and what environmentalism is.

Instead of cut and pasting another false attack, you should deal with the points raised above, which as yet you have FAILED to do.

Quote:
Why do you apply different standards for Christians than you do Muslims?
Who said I did? This is another strawman attack by you because the truth is, both religious books demand different standards. Christianity requires (IN THE SCRIPTURES) that lying, killing, robbing, enslaving, persecuting are abominations, yet the koran ORDERS MUSLIMS TO ETERNALLY DO ALL THOSE THINGS TO NON MUSLIMS. So again, you have no idea what you are talking about, and again you present words in a sentence without actually presenting your argument and showing how i have used double standards. SAYING THINGS AS YOU DO AND THEN PROVING THEM BY USING FACTS ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Quote:
Did you miss the "OT god" having his people kill others because they did not believe in him? How is this different than what the 'Christians' did to the Native Americans and what you say that Muslims did to the Jews?
AGAIN, you throw some words into a sentence without actually bringing anything.

Like I ALREADY made very clear, a madman can call themselves anything they want, but its only a fool who takes the madman at his word.

YOU WILL FIND, that the biblical God NEVER HAD HIS OWN PEOPLE KILL OTHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE BECAUSE OF DISBELIEF. He may of punished his own people for disbelief sometimes, but if they were killed, then the scripture makes it very clear that they WERE NOT KILLED FOR UNBELIEF, THEY WERE KILLED FOR ACTS THEY HAD COMMITTED.

And, you will also find that these commands to kill ARE DESCRIPTIVE, NOT PRESCRIPTIVE. THE KORANIC ORDERS TO KILL AND WAGE JIHAD ARE PRESCRIPTIVE. Huge difference.

Can you, even back up your own claim by posting one verse were God orders his people to kill other people because of "disbelief"? I GONNA BE WAITING FOR THAT.

And before you post anything from the bible that you believe is God ordering the killing of "disbelievers" I suggest that you read it properly first. If you post something that is not what you are claiming it is I will bury you with it for being so ignorant and spreading false information.

KILLING DISBELIEVERS IS THE THEME OF THE KORAN.


Quote:
Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29


O ye who believe! Fight TO KILL (qatiloo) those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). PICKTHAL 9:123

(O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers) with the sword. 9.73. Tafsir Ibn abbas. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

(9.73)O you Prophet! Strive strenuously against the disbelievers. Amatul Rahman Omar. Prophet, fight the unbelievers - Muhammad Sarwar. O Prophet, carry out Jihad (struggle) against the disbelievers - Muhammad Taqi Usmani . O prophet, wage war against the unbelievers - George Sale .

Bare in mind that the koran orders muslims to follow muhummads example:

You have had a good example in God's Messenger for whosoever hopes for God and the Last Day, and remembers God oft.” Q. 33:21

4.89; They would like you to be kafir (non muslim) as they are kafir so that you will all be the same. Do not take any of them as friends until they have made hijra in the Way of Allah. But if they run away then seize them and kill them wherever you find them. Sura 4.89 Aisha Bewley

And fight/kill (Qatiloo) them until (there) be no misguidance/betrayal , and the religion, all of it be to Allah, 8:39

So fight/kill (Qatiloo) in Allah’s way, in order to elevate His religion” 2.244, http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

" QATILOO (Fight TO KILL) those who believe not in allah … even if they be People of the book [Christians and Jews] until they have willingly agreed to pay the Jizya tribute in recognition of their submissive state." (Sura 9:29)

I shall cast terror, fear, into the hearts of the disbelievers; so smite above the necks, that is, the heads, and smite of them every finger!’, that is, [smite] the extremities of their hands and feet: http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

3:56. As for the disbelievers (Christians and jews), I will chastise them with a terrible chastisement in this world, through being killed, taken captive and made to pay the jizya, and the Hereafter, in the Fire; they shall have no helpers, none to protect them from it. Tafsir Al Jalalayn http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

The beginnings of Jihad are traced back to the words and actions of Muhammad and the Qu’ran[27]. This word of Allah explicitly encourages the use of Jihad against the unbelievers[28]. Sura 25, verse 52 states: “Do not yield to the unbelievers, but fight them vigorously with this.”[29] It was, therefore, the duty of all Muslims to fight against those who did not believe in Allah.
http://www.websters-online-dictionar...&sa=Search#922


Ibn Kathir (Commenting on Quran 2:256, which says "let there be no compulsion in religion") - "Therefore all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the jizya, they should be fought till they are killed."

The apostal of allah said: “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and…. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'"
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx...SubjectID=9927
As you can see, the koran explicitly in many places orders muslims to wage eternal jihad against the unbelievers. The koran also shows that the muslims who refuse to go on jihad are an abomination.

Quote:
They will swear to you by Allah, when you turn back, [when] you return [from jihad], to them, from Tabūk, that they had [genuine] excuses for staying behind, so that you may leave them be, refraining from reproaching them. So leave them be, for they are an abomination, filth, on account of their inner vileness, and their abode shall be Hell, as requital for what they used to earn. Sura 9.95. TAFSIR AL JALALAYN http://tanzil.net/#trans/ar.jalalayn/9:95
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Old 29-11-2011, 06:39 AM   #50
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Lets look at your own fallacies they you have presented..
Yes, let's look at the fallacies that you have presented...

"No True Scotsman fallacy"


"No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X."



"Religious

With respect to religion, the fallacy is well used, often even overused. Religious apologists will repeatedly try to use the No True Scotsman argument to distance themselves from more extreme or fundamentalist groups but this does not prevent such extremists actually being religious - they themselves would certainly argue otherwise. Moderate Muslim leaders, for example, are well known for declaring Islamic extremists as "not true Muslims" as Islam is a religion of peace. Similarly, moderate Christians, such as those in Europe, sometimes aghast when viewing their right-wing counterparts in the US, immediately declare them "not true Christians", even though they believe in the same God and get their belief system of it from the same book. Modern pagans do it all the time, perhaps even more than other religions, due to the fact that there is no agreed-on orthodoxy for the whole group, with some well-established practices in one setting being considered icky in others. Silver Ravenwolf, one of the best selling "leaders" of neopagans, has done this with multiple ancient, well-established practices."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman



Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post

1) i never said or implied the christians do not sin, or that christians are perfect, YET YOU ATTACKED THAT FALSE POSITION thinking that you were somehow refuting me. Thats known as a strawman fallacy:
Wrong, I never ATTACKED that position, I asked you a question about Christians sinning, then I showed you the fallacy of your position of the 'no true Scotsman/Christian fallacy. Apparently, you didn't like it because now you are typing in caps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
And thats all you have done. You have not even attempted to deal with my argument.
You had no argument, it was based on a fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
EVERYTHING I SAID IS 100% ACCURATE AND STILL STANDS.
No, because it is based on a fallacy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
I showed you from the bible that just a person calling themselves christians is NOT ENUFF, a person is judged on their works. The works that you presented, I SHOWED FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES THAT THOSE ACTS ARE CONDEMNED. You can accuse me of any fallacy you want. PROVING THAT IT IS A FALLACY IS IMPOSSIBLE, because it is no fallacy and i have produced the ONLY authority THAT COUNTS, which are the christians scriptures WHich ALONE DETERMINE WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS, AND WHO A CHRISTIAN IS. Just like the environmentalist manifesto/rule book determines what an environmentalists is and what environmentalism is.
Not in the Old Testament, none of those things are condemned, as a matter of fact, they were told by the LORD to do. So how can they be condemned when and if you believe in the triune god, is Jesus whom says that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
Instead of cut and pasting another false attack, you should deal with the points raised above, which as yet you have FAILED to do.
I actually did deal with it, I showed you the fallacy called the No True Scotsman Fallacy, and it made you mad...If you cannot be honest with yourself, how can I trust you to be honest with me?





Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
Who said I did? This is another strawman attack by you because the truth is, both religious books demand different standards. Christianity requires (IN THE SCRIPTURES) that lying, killing, robbing, enslaving, persecuting are abominations, yet the koran ORDERS MUSLIMS TO ETERNALLY DO ALL THOSE THINGS TO NON MUSLIMS. So again, you have no idea what you are talking about, and again you present words in a sentence without actually presenting your argument and showing how i have used double standards. SAYING THINGS AS YOU DO AND THEN PROVING THEM BY USING FACTS ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
So tell me, whom said this? Luke 19:27 "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”


Just like the Old Testament LORD ordered those things to be done to witches, the Midianites, unruly children, and many others. What is the difference when the OT Lord tells people to do this and the Muslims doing this?



Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
AGAIN, you throw some words into a sentence without actually bringing anything.

Like I ALREADY made very clear, a madman can call themselves anything they want, but its only a fool who takes the madman at his word.
YOU do not RULE OVER ME. DO NOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO, DO NOT PRETEND YOU HAVE AUTHORITY OVER ME, YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY AUTHORITY OVER ME. GET IT? GOT IT? GOOD!

Again, CHRISTIANS did this to the Native Americans. Prove that they were not Christians and you aren't using the No True Scotsman fallacy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
YOU WILL FIND, that the biblical God NEVER HAD HIS OWN PEOPLE KILL OTHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE BECAUSE OF DISBELIEF. He may of punished his own people for disbelief sometimes, but if they were killed, then the scripture makes it very clear that they WERE NOT KILLED FOR UNBELIEF, THEY WERE KILLED FOR ACTS THEY HAD COMMITTED.
Which was no different than the CHRISTIANS that killed the Native Americans. They claimed that they were savages, so they had to be killed.




Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
And, you will also find that these commands to kill ARE DESCRIPTIVE, NOT PRESCRIPTIVE. THE KORANIC ORDERS TO KILL AND WAGE JIHAD ARE PRESCRIPTIVE. Huge difference.

Can you, even back up your own claim by posting one verse were God orders his people to kill other people because of "disbelief"? I GONNA BE WAITING FOR THAT.
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

zephaniah 1:7-18
7 Be silent before the Sovereign LORD, for the day of the LORD is near. The LORD has prepared a sacrifice; he has consecrated those he has invited. 8 On the day of the LORD's sacrifice I will punish the princes and the king's sons and all those clad in foreign clothes. 9 On that day I will punish all who avoid stepping on the threshold, who fill the temple of their gods with violence and deceit.10 "On that day," declares the LORD, "a cry will go up from the Fish Gate, wailing from the New Quarter, and a loud crash from the hills. 11 Wail, you who live in the market district; all your merchants will be wiped out, all who trade with silver will be ruined.12 At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those who are complacent, who are like wine left on its dregs, who think, 'The LORD will do nothing, either good or bad.'13 Their wealth will be plundered, their houses demolished. They will build houses but not live in them; they will plant vineyards but not drink the wine.
The Great Day of the LORD
14 "The great day of the LORD is near-- near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there. 15 That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness,16 a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers.17 I will bring distress on the people and they will walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like filth.18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD's wrath. In the fire of his jealousy the whole world will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live in the earth."


zephaniah 1:2-6
2 "I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," declares the LORD. 3 "I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.
Against Judah
4 "I will stretch out my hand against Judah and against all who live in Jerusalem. I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal, the names of the pagan and the idolatrous priests-- 5 those who bow down on the roofs to worship the starry host, those who bow down and swear by the LORD and who also swear by Molech,6 those who turn back from following the LORD and neither seek the LORD nor inquire of him.

judges 1:1-8
1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?" 2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands." 3 Then the men of Judah said to the Simeonites their brothers, "Come up with us into the territory allotted to us, to fight against the Canaanites. We in turn will go with you into yours." So the Simeonites went with them. 4 When Judah attacked, the LORD gave the Canaanites and Perizzites into their hands and they struck down ten thousand men at Bezek.5 It was there that they found Adoni-Bezek and fought against him, putting to rout the Canaanites and Perizzites. 6 Adoni-Bezek fled, but they chased him and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and big toes. 7 Then Adoni-Bezek said, "Seventy kings with their thumbs and big toes cut off have picked up scraps under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them." They brought him to Jerusalem, and he died there. 8 The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem also and took it. They put the city to the sword and set it on fire.

Jeremiah 50:21-22
21 "Attack the land of Merathaim and those who live in Pekod. Pursue, kill and completely destroy them," declares the LORD. "Do everything I have commanded you. 22 The noise of battle is in the land, the noise of great destruction!

Deuteronomy 7:1-4
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you-- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.


HUMAN SACRIFICE!

Deuteronomy 13:13-17

13 that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. 14 In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, 15 you must attack that town and completely destroy[a] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. 16 Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. 17 Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors.





Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
And before you post anything from the bible that you believe is God ordering the killing of "disbelievers" I suggest that you read it properly first. If you post something that is not what you are claiming it is I will bury you with it for being so ignorant and spreading false information.

KILLING DISBELIEVERS IS THE THEME OF THE KORAN.
And before you go threatening me with crap, you better read your own book first because that is what the whole "jealous god" was about, KILLING people that did not believe in the OT LORD.

Yeah, it is the theme in the Koran, just like it was the THEME of the OT Lord, and the Christians that killed the Native Americans. So much so, that after they killed the parents, they stole the children and sent them to CHRISTIAN schools.

"The Star article goes on to say that the number of deaths are in the hundreds, when, the estimates have also been estimated at between 35%-60% of the 150,000 children who were kidnapped and savaged. 1909, Dr. Peter Bryce, general medical superintendent for Indian Affairs reported to the Ministry that between 1894-1908 the mortality rate in western Canadian residential schools was between 35%-60%. The statistic became public in 1922 (more about this below), That is between 52,500 - 90,000 children unaccounted for. Do we all really naively believe they died of natural causes? Mass graves have already been discovered. It is our holocaust."

http://www.shannonthunderbird.com/re...al_schools.htm


"Las Casas tells how the Spaniards "grew more conceited every day" and after a while refused to walk any distance. They "rode the backs of Indians if they were in a hurry" or were carried on hammocks by Indians running in relays. "In this case they also had Indians carry large leaves to shade them from the sun and others to fan them with goose wings."

Total control led to total cruelty. The Spaniards "thought nothing of knifing Indians by tens and twenties and of cutting slices off them to test the sharpness of their blades." Las Casas tells how "two of these so-called Christians met two Indian boys one day, each carrying a parrot; they took the parrots and for fun beheaded the boys."
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html

Same website:

The Puritans also appealed to the Bible, Psalms 2:8: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." And to justify their use of force to take the land, they cited Romans 13:2: "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

The Puritans lived in uneasy truce with the Pequot Indians, who occupied what is now southern Connecticut and Rhode Island. But they wanted them out of the way; they wanted their land. And they seemed to want also to establish their rule firmly over Connecticut settlers in that area. The murder of a white trader, Indian-kidnaper, and troublemaker became an excuse to make war on the Pequots in 1636.

A punitive expedition left Boston to attack the Narraganset Indians on Block Island, who were lumped with the Pequots. As Governor Winthrop wrote:

They had commission to put to death the men of Block Island, but to spare the women and children, and to bring them away, and to take possession of the island; and from thence to go to the Pequods to demand the murderers of Captain Stone and other English, and one thousand fathom of wampum for damages, etc. and some of their children as hostages, which if they should refuse, they were to obtain it by force.




Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
As you can see, the koran explicitly in many places orders muslims to wage eternal jihad against the unbelievers. The koran also shows that the muslims who refuse to go on jihad are an abomination.
No different than the JEALOUS god of the OLD TESTAMENT, you know the one, that killed all of the worshipers of other gods?

Let me give you a hint...PAGAN=GOYIM=HEATHEN=INFIDEL=anyone that did not follow an ABRAHAM religion.


"When the Christians were exhausted from war, God saw fit to send the Indians smallpox" – Francisco de Aguilar, 1525

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Old 29-11-2011, 04:00 PM   #51
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurt4ever1 View Post

Yes, let's look at the fallacies that you have presented...

"No True Scotsman fallacy"


"No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X."



"Religious

With respect to religion, the fallacy is well used, often even overused. Religious apologists will repeatedly try to use the No True Scotsman argument to distance themselves from more extreme or fundamentalist groups but this does not prevent such extremists actually being religious - they themselves would certainly argue otherwise. Moderate Muslim leaders, for example, are well known for declaring Islamic extremists as "not true Muslims" as Islam is a religion of peace. Similarly, moderate Christians, such as those in Europe, sometimes aghast when viewing their right-wing counterparts in the US, immediately declare them "not true Christians", even though they believe in the same God and get their belief system of it from the same book. Modern pagans do it all the time, perhaps even more than other religions, due to the fact that there is no agreed-on orthodoxy for the whole group, with some well-established practices in one setting being considered icky in others. Silver Ravenwolf, one of the best selling "leaders" of neopagans, has done this with multiple ancient, well-established practices."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman





Wrong, I never attacked that position, I showed you the fallacy of your position of the 'no true Scotsman/Christian fallacy. Apparently, you didn't like it because now you are typing in caps.


You had no argument, it was based on a fallacy.


No, because it is based on a fallacy.


Not in the Old Testament, none of those things are condemned, as a matter of fact, they were told by the LORD to do. So how can they be condemned when and if you believe in the triune god, is Jesus whom says that?

I actually did deal with it, I showed you the fallacy called the No True Scotsman Fallacy, and it made you mad...If you cannot be honest with yourself, how can I trust you to be honest with me?

Just like the Old Testament LORD ordered those things to be done to witches, the Midianites, unruly children, and many others. What is the difference when the OT Lord tells people to do this and the Muslims doing this?





YOU do not RULE OVER ME. DO NOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO, DO NOT PRETEND YOU HAVE AUTHORITY OVER ME, YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY AUTHORITY OVER ME. GET IT? GOT IT? GOOD!

Again, CHRISTIANS did this to the Native Americans. Prove that they were not Christians and you aren't using the No True Scotsman fallacy.





Which was no different than the CHRISTIANS that killed the Native Americans. They claimed that they were savages, so they had to be killed.






The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

zephaniah 1:7-18
7 Be silent before the Sovereign LORD, for the day of the LORD is near. The LORD has prepared a sacrifice; he has consecrated those he has invited. 8 On the day of the LORD's sacrifice I will punish the princes and the king's sons and all those clad in foreign clothes. 9 On that day I will punish all who avoid stepping on the threshold, who fill the temple of their gods with violence and deceit.10 "On that day," declares the LORD, "a cry will go up from the Fish Gate, wailing from the New Quarter, and a loud crash from the hills. 11 Wail, you who live in the market district; all your merchants will be wiped out, all who trade with silver will be ruined.12 At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those who are complacent, who are like wine left on its dregs, who think, 'The LORD will do nothing, either good or bad.'13 Their wealth will be plundered, their houses demolished. They will build houses but not live in them; they will plant vineyards but not drink the wine.
The Great Day of the LORD
14 "The great day of the LORD is near-- near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there. 15 That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness,16 a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers.17 I will bring distress on the people and they will walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like filth.18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD's wrath. In the fire of his jealousy the whole world will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live in the earth."


zephaniah 1:2-6
2 "I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," declares the LORD. 3 "I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD.
Against Judah
4 "I will stretch out my hand against Judah and against all who live in Jerusalem. I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal, the names of the pagan and the idolatrous priests-- 5 those who bow down on the roofs to worship the starry host, those who bow down and swear by the LORD and who also swear by Molech,6 those who turn back from following the LORD and neither seek the LORD nor inquire of him.

judges 1:1-8
1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?" 2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands." 3 Then the men of Judah said to the Simeonites their brothers, "Come up with us into the territory allotted to us, to fight against the Canaanites. We in turn will go with you into yours." So the Simeonites went with them. 4 When Judah attacked, the LORD gave the Canaanites and Perizzites into their hands and they struck down ten thousand men at Bezek.5 It was there that they found Adoni-Bezek and fought against him, putting to rout the Canaanites and Perizzites. 6 Adoni-Bezek fled, but they chased him and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and big toes. 7 Then Adoni-Bezek said, "Seventy kings with their thumbs and big toes cut off have picked up scraps under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them." They brought him to Jerusalem, and he died there. 8 The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem also and took it. They put the city to the sword and set it on fire.

Jeremiah 50:21-22
21 "Attack the land of Merathaim and those who live in Pekod. Pursue, kill and completely destroy them," declares the LORD. "Do everything I have commanded you. 22 The noise of battle is in the land, the noise of great destruction!

Deuteronomy 7:1-4
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you-- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.


HUMAN SACRIFICE!

Deuteronomy 13:13-17

13 that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. 14 In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, 15 you must attack that town and completely destroy[a] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. 16 Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. 17 Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors.






And before you go threatening me with crap, you better read your own book first because that is what the whole "jealous god" was about, KILLING people that did not believe in the OT LORD.

Yeah, it is the theme in the Koran, just like it was the THEME of the OT Lord, and the Christians that killed the Native Americans. So much so, that after they killed the parents, they stole the children and sent them to CHRISTIAN schools.

"The Star article goes on to say that the number of deaths are in the hundreds, when, the estimates have also been estimated at between 35%-60% of the 150,000 children who were kidnapped and savaged. 1909, Dr. Peter Bryce, general medical superintendent for Indian Affairs reported to the Ministry that between 1894-1908 the mortality rate in western Canadian residential schools was between 35%-60%. The statistic became public in 1922 (more about this below), That is between 52,500 - 90,000 children unaccounted for. Do we all really naively believe they died of natural causes? Mass graves have already been discovered. It is our holocaust."

http://www.shannonthunderbird.com/re...al_schools.htm


"Las Casas tells how the Spaniards "grew more conceited every day" and after a while refused to walk any distance. They "rode the backs of Indians if they were in a hurry" or were carried on hammocks by Indians running in relays. "In this case they also had Indians carry large leaves to shade them from the sun and others to fan them with goose wings."

Total control led to total cruelty. The Spaniards "thought nothing of knifing Indians by tens and twenties and of cutting slices off them to test the sharpness of their blades." Las Casas tells how "two of these so-called Christians met two Indian boys one day, each carrying a parrot; they took the parrots and for fun beheaded the boys."
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html

Same website:

The Puritans also appealed to the Bible, Psalms 2:8: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." And to justify their use of force to take the land, they cited Romans 13:2: "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

The Puritans lived in uneasy truce with the Pequot Indians, who occupied what is now southern Connecticut and Rhode Island. But they wanted them out of the way; they wanted their land. And they seemed to want also to establish their rule firmly over Connecticut settlers in that area. The murder of a white trader, Indian-kidnaper, and troublemaker became an excuse to make war on the Pequots in 1636.

A punitive expedition left Boston to attack the Narraganset Indians on Block Island, who were lumped with the Pequots. As Governor Winthrop wrote:

They had commission to put to death the men of Block Island, but to spare the women and children, and to bring them away, and to take possession of the island; and from thence to go to the Pequods to demand the murderers of Captain Stone and other English, and one thousand fathom of wampum for damages, etc. and some of their children as hostages, which if they should refuse, they were to obtain it by force.






No different than the JEALOUS god of the OLD TESTAMENT, you know the one, that killed all of the worshipers of other gods?

Let me give you a hint...PAGAN=GOYIM=HEATHEN=INFIDEL=anyone that did not follow an ABRAHAM religion.


"When the Christians were exhausted from war, God saw fit to send the Indians smallpox" – Francisco de Aguilar, 1525

Quote:
No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy


I cleared this up. first, what would be the definition of a true scotsman?, then do the ones claiming they are scotsman match up to the definition? Its very simple.

IF A MAN SAYS HE IS A PEACEMAKER, YET IS A WARMONGER, CAN THEY REALLY BE A PEACEMAKER? NO!

But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the word 'peacemaker' = warmonger.

IF A PARENT SAYS THEY ARE A LOVING PARENT WHILE THEY ARE ABUSING THEIR CHILDREN CAN THEY REALLY BE DEFINED AS A 'GOOD PARENT'? NO!

But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the word 'good parent' = child abuser.

IF A MAN SAYS HE RESPECTS AND HONORS WOMEN, BUT YET IS A RAPIST, CAN THEY REALLY 'RESPECT WOMEN'? NO!

But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the words 'respectful towards women' = rapist

CAN A PERSON WHO CALLS THEMSELVES A CHRISTIAN REALLY BE A CHRISTIAN WHEN THEY DO EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE TO WHAT THEIR OWN DOCTRINE SAYS? NO!

But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the word 'christian' = killer, robber.

SO IN FACT, THE FALLACY IS 100% YOURS DEAR.

Case closed on that one. I don't even need you hurt4ever to authenticate it.

Rev 21:8
But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."

But you, O God, will bring down the wicked into the pit of corruption; bloodthirsty and deceitful men will not live out half their days. But as for me, I trust in you. Psalm 55:23


Quote:
Wrong, I never attacked that position, I showed you the fallacy of your position of the 'no true Scotsman/Christian fallacy. Apparently, you didn't like it because now you are typing in caps.
YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW WHAT IS A FALLACY IN WHAT I HAVE SAID, CALLING SOMETHING A FALLACY DOESN’T MAKE IT A FALLACY. You have to prove it is a fallacy.

A GROUP WHO CALL THEMSELVES A CHARITY BUT IN REALITY ARE A BUNCH OF SELF SERVING THEIVES, IS IT A FALLACY TO SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT A CHARITY IN REALITY, ACCORDING TO THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD? YOU MAY CALL YOURSELF A WOMAN, BUT IF YOU HAVE EVERYTHING A MAN HAS BODYWISE THEN YOU ARE A MAN, YOU DIG?
Very simple, but beyond you. The caps are to help you see better, because you obviously cannot see what is being said.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth
And thats all you have done. You have not even attempted to deal with my argument.

hurt4ever1
You had no argument, it was based on a fallacy.
YOU HAVE YET TO PROVE ANYTHING IS A FALLACY. FUTHERMORE, DEFINE A FALLACY.

If a muslim does what is completely opposite to what islam teaches, would Muslims say they are a muslim or non muslim? The same rules apply to Christians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth
I showed you from the bible that just a person calling themselves christians is NOT ENUFF, a person is judged on their works. The works that you presented, I SHOWED FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES THAT THOSE ACTS ARE CONDEMNED. You can accuse me of any fallacy you want. PROVING THAT IT IS A FALLACY IS IMPOSSIBLE, because it is no fallacy and i have produced the ONLY authority THAT COUNTS, which are the christians scriptures WHich ALONE DETERMINE WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS, AND WHO A CHRISTIAN IS. Just like the environmentalist manifesto/rule book determines what an environmentalists is and what environmentalism is.


Quote:
Not in the Old Testament, none of those things are condemned, as a matter of fact, they were told by the LORD to do. So how can they be condemned when and if you believe in the triune god, is Jesus whom says that?
What happened with the children of Israel stays with the children of Israel, THERES NOTHING TO IMPLY THAT THE COMMANDS TO ISRAEL APPLIED TO ALL MANKIND. PRETENDING THAT IT IS, IS YOUR OWN FALLACY/IGNORANCE/MISUNDERSTANDING/INSINCERITY.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth
Instead of cut and pasting another false attack, you should deal with the points raised above, which as yet you have FAILED to do.

hurt4ever1
I actually did deal with it, I showed you the fallacy called the No True Scotsman Fallacy, and it made you mad...If you cannot be honest with yourself, how can I trust you to be honest with me?
AS I SAID TO YOU, CHRISTIANS FOLLOW CHRIST, Did christ kill? did he order killing? did he rob? did he order people to rob? Did any of the biblical characters who followed jesus kill, rob, rape, lie, cheat, covert, minipulate, etc? WELL THEY ARE THE ONLY EXAMPLES WE HAVE AT WHAT DEFINES A CHRISTIAN. IF PEOPLE DO THE OPPOSITE TO WHAT THEY DID THEN THEY CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN BY DEFINITION.

WHAT WILL YOU QUOTE NEXT? WILL YOU QUOTE THE STONING VERSES IN THE OT AND CLAIM THAT CHRISTIANS STONE? THATS THE LEVEL THAT YOU ARE ON. THE ONLY THING THAT DETERMINES WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN IS THE ACTUAL CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES WHICH DEFINE WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS. YOUR ‘SCOTSMAN’ THING IS EVEN IRRELEVANT AS YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW ME HOW EXACTLY THE KILLER CHRISTIANS WERE FOLLOWING CHRIST.

Jesus said “pray for those who persecute YOU”. There is absolutely not a single reference where Christians are to persecute others, therefore, any Christian persecuting others is NOT following Christ, so therefore CANNOT be a christian by definition, FACT!

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth
Who said I did? This is another strawman attack by you because the truth is, both religious books demand different standards. Christianity requires (IN THE SCRIPTURES) that lying, killing, robbing, enslaving, persecuting are abominations, yet the koran ORDERS MUSLIMS TO ETERNALLY DO ALL THOSE THINGS TO NON MUSLIMS. So again, you have no idea what you are talking about, and again
you present words in a sentence without actually presenting your argument and showing how i have used double standards. SAYING THINGS AS YOU DO AND THEN PROVING THEM BY USING FACTS ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

hurt4ever1
Just like the Old Testament LORD ordered those things to be done to witches, the Midianites, unruly children, and many others. What is the difference when the OT Lord tells people to do this and the Muslims doing this?
THE DIFFERNCE IS, as I have ALREADY COVERED IS, the Koran orders Muslims to persecute ALL MANKIND IF THEY “DISBELIEVE” IN KORAN.

YOU AS YET HAVE NOT SHOWN ME ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN THE BIBLE.

When God said a witch was not to live is something that applied to Israel only, no one else has any business trying to copy something that was NOT given to them. If you read it, you will see that every command that you are now gonna be referring to only applied to Israel and were not eternal commands for Israel to wag war against all mankind. If you pretend that it is, you yourself will be the one living off a fallacy.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth
AGAIN, you throw some words into a sentence without actually bringing anything.

Like I ALREADY made very clear, a madman can call themselves anything they want, but its only a fool who takes the madman at his word.

hurt4ever1
YOU do not RULE OVER ME. DO NOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO, DO NOT PRETEND YOU HAVE AUTHORITY OVER ME, YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY AUTHORITY OVER ME. GET IT? GOT IT? GOOD!
Listen love, I wouldn’t want authority over you. Your own ignorance rules over you. That’s your own business.


Quote:
CHRISTIANS did this to the Native Americans. Prove that they were not Christians and you aren't using the No True Scotsman fallacy.

I HAVE ALREADY CLEAR PROVEN FROM THE SCRIPTURES, WHICH IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY WHICH DETERMINES WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS.

THOSE PEOPLE WERE WRONG, AND ARE CONDEMNED BY THE SAME CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES. STOP PRETENDING THAT FALSE CHRISTIANS ARE ACTUALLY THE QUINTESSENTIAL FOLLOWERS OF THE BIBLE. THAT’S YOUR OWN FALLACY.


Show us JUST ONE Christian from the bible who did any of the things that you claim? The first Christians were massacred. What happened in America was more to do with a ‘state’ (spain, etc) and nothing to do with religion, FACT!

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth
YOU WILL FIND, that the biblical God NEVER HAD HIS OWN PEOPLE KILL OTHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE BECAUSE OF DISBELIEF. He may of punished his own people for disbelief sometimes, but if they were killed, then the scripture makes it very clear that they WERE NOT KILLED FOR UNBELIEF, THEY WERE KILLED FOR ACTS THEY HAD COMMITTED.

hurt4ever1
Which was no different than the CHRISTIANS that killed the Native Americans. They claimed that they were savages, so they had to be killed.
Well where in the Christian scriptures does it say to DEMONIZE PEOPLE and MURDER THEM? If you can’t show that, then you have no argument, but I said you had no argument from the beginning.

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The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
the verse you quote says nothing about God ordering people to kill. SO YOU ARE DENYING GOD THE RIGHT TO SWEEP AWAY HIS ENEMIES?



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I will punish the princes and the king's sons and all those clad in foreign clothes. 9 On that day I will punish all who avoid stepping on the threshold, who fill the temple of their gods with violence and deceit
Well there you go, you was claiming that god orders people to be killed for “disbelief”, yet the verses you posted give the reason why they were to be killed, the reasons were: “who fill the temple of their gods with violence and deceit”
So this means, those who were not violent and deceitful were safe, correct? LOL.





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I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal, the names of the pagan and the idolatrous priests-- 5 those who bow down on the roofs to worship the starry host, those who bow down and swear by the LORD and who also swear by Molech,6 those who turn back from following the LORD and neither seek the LORD nor inquire of him.
NOTICE, this is God talking about what he will do to HIS OWN PEOPLE for their ACTIONS. ALSO, NOWHERE IN WHAT YOU POSTED HERE IS GOD SAYING HE WILL KILL ANYONE. You obviously are not reading what you yourself are posting.


Quote:
2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands." 3 Then the men of Judah said to the Simeonites their brothers, "Come up with us into the territory allotted to us, to fight against the Canaanites. We in turn will go with you into yours." So the Simeonites went with them. 4 When Judah attacked, the LORD gave the Canaanites and Perizzites into their hands and they struck down ten thousand men at Bezek.5
I don’t see anything wrong there. Like I said, people were punished for the abominations they had committed. If Israel done they same thing they would get the same treatment:

The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God."'" Leviticus 18:1-30


This God obviously has high standards for his people.


Quote:
Jeremiah 50:21-22
21 "Attack the land of Merathaim and those who live in Pekod. Pursue, kill and completely destroy them," declares the LORD. "Do everything I have commanded you. 22 The noise of battle is in the land, the noise of great destruction!
And this means what exactly? CLEARLY, this is a descriptive account, NOWHERE is this implying that Israel should attack nations indefinitely, which is the fallacy you are trying to sell here. THESE PEOPLE WERE TOLD DIRECTLY BY THEIR GOD TO DO WHAT THEY WERE COMMANDED TO DO. So if the God who brings you out of bondage asks you to do something, you can be sure that its with your own benefit at heart.

See if anything as great as this has ever happened, or if the like has ever been heard. Has any nation ever heard God speaking out of fire, as you have, and still survived?” (Deuteronomy 4:32–33)

Quote:
Deuteronomy 7:1-4
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations--the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you-- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.
Destroy the people because of their abominations, take the land, but if you do as they did, you will be destroyed also. Theres no favouritism with God when it comes to wickedness. For me, this just shows how just God is.

Quote:
HUMAN SACRIFICE!

Deuteronomy 13:13-17

13 that scoundrels among you are leading their fellow citizens astray by saying, ‘Let us go worship other gods’—gods you have not known before. 14 In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find that the report is true and such a detestable act has been committed among you, 15 you must attack that town and completely destroy[a] all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. 16 Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the open square and burn it. Burn the entire town as a burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. 17 Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a large nation, just as he swore to your ancestors.

What you are trying now is whats known as ‘THE TEXAS SHARP SHOOTER FALLACY’, look it up, lol.

I thought we were talking about your first fallacy which was “bible says kill unbelievers”, as yet YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY VERSE WHERE GOD IS ORDERING ANYONE TO BE KILLED FOR “UNBELIEVING”.

Honestly, you really are exposing yourself to be a dummy who just cuts and pastes without even comprehending what you are reading.
You called it “HUMAN SACRIFICE”, YET THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE WORD “SACRIFICE”. An offering is NOT a SACRIFICE.


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And before you go threatening me with crap, you better read your own book first because that is what the whole "jealous god" was about, KILLING people that did not believe in the OT LORD.
YOU STILL HAVE YET TO POST JUST ONE VERSE WHERE GOD ORDERS PEOPLE TO BE KILLED FOR UNBELIEF. LOOOL.

Theres nothing wrong with being jealous. If I built a house for my wife, furnished it, fed and clothed my kids, paid for all my needs, then a scumbag who just takes from them is the one who my children call father, that’s an insult and of course I would be jealous, so would most normal people. If we can be jealous over what we created, how then can you deny God the same right? If someone was attempting to murder your children you may well murder that person, therefore, please don’t take the same right away from God to act.

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Yeah, it is the theme in the Koran, just like it was the THEME of the OT Lord, and the Christians that killed the Native Americans. So much so, that after they killed the parents, they stole the children and sent them to CHRISTIAN schools.
YOU ARE JUST A FOOL. Seriously. ALL THE THINGS YOU MENTIONED ARE CONDEMNED IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES.

FROM NOW ON, ALL I ASK OF YOU TO DO IS, WHEN YOU ARE QUOTING SOMETHING FROM HISTORY, PLEASE POST THE VERSES FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES TO CONFIRM WHETHER THE ACTIONS YOU ARE QUOTING ARE IN FACT FOUND IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES.

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"The Star article goes on to say that the number of deaths are in the hundreds, when, the estimates have also been estimated at between 35%-60% of the 150,000 children who were kidnapped and savaged. 1909, Dr. Peter Bryce, general medical superintendent for Indian Affairs reported to the Ministry that between 1894-1908 the mortality rate in western Canadian residential schools was between 35%-60%. The statistic became public in 1922 (more about this below), That is between 52,500 - 90,000 children unaccounted for. Do we all really naively believe they died of natural causes? Mass graves have already been discovered. It is our holocaust.

http://www.shannonthunderbird.com/re...al_schools.htm
No one never said that it was not a holocaust. But Christianity is not responsible, that’s a fact because nowhere in the Christian scriptures does it say to commit mass murder.

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"Las Casas tells how the Spaniards "grew more conceited every day" and after a while refused to walk any distance. They "rode the backs of Indians if they were in a hurry" or were carried on hammocks by Indians running in relays. "In this case they also had Indians carry large leaves to shade them from the sun and others to fan them with goose wings."
AGAIN, EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE SPAINISH, AND NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY.


Bartolomé de las Casas

LAS CASAS WAS A CHRISTIAN AND HE CONDEMNS THE ACTIONS OF THE SPAINSH COLONIZERS. THEREFORE, YOU QUOTING HIM AS EVIDENCE AGAINST THE SPANISH IS ACTUALLY PROVING MY POINT THAT THE ACTIONS OF THE SPANISH WERE NOT CHRISTIAN ACTIONS, IF THEY WERE CHRISTIAN ACTIONS THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR CHRISTIANS LIKE LAS CASAS TO CONDEMN THEM. THANKS!

Bartolomé de las Casas O.P. (c. 1484[1] – 18 July 1566) was a 16th-century Spanish historian, social reformer and Dominican friar. He became the first resident Bishop of Chiapas, and the first officially appointed "Protector of the Indians". His extensive writings, the most famous being "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies" and "Historia de Las Indias", chronicle the first decades of colonization of the West Indies, focusing particularly on the atrocities committed by the colonizers against the Indigenous peoples.

Arriving as one of the first settlers in the New World he participated in, and was eventually compelled to oppose, the atrocities committed against the Native Americans by the Spanish colonists. [It was his christian faith that COMPELLED him to oppose such actions]

gave up his own Indian slaves and encomienda, instead advocating before King Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor on behalf of rights for the natives.
[so it was a christian who opposed the atrocities]

Bartolomé de las Casas spent 50 years of his life actively fighting slavery and the violent colonial abuse of indigenous peoples, especially by trying to convince the Spanish court to adopt a more humane policy of colonization
[wow, thats devoted christian]

Las Casas is often seen as one of the first advocates for universal Human Rights.[2] [wow, so it was a christian who is seen as one of the pioneers of human rights]

Las Casas was finally convinced that all the actions of the Spanish in the New World had been illegal and a great injustice. [hurt4ever, your whole argument CRASHES here]
Thank you for quoting Las Casas, YOU CATEGORICALLY PROVED WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. Real christians look at Las casas as being true to his faith, yet you ignor him and measure the christian faith by the actions of colonizers, lol.


Quote:
." Las Casas tells how "two of these so-called Christians met two Indian boys one day, each carrying a parrot; they took the parrots and for fun beheaded the boys."
Las casa is a christian who is giving us these accounts and he as a christian CONDEMNS THOSE ACTIONS. Las casas was correct.

Jesus said if they take your outside garment give them you inner garment. Therefore, killing someone for their parrot is not found in the scripture. THIS IS YOUR STRAWMAN FALLACY.

AGAIN, EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE SPAINISH, AND NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY.

Quote:
The Puritans also appealed to the Bible, Psalms 2:8: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." And to justify their use of force to take the land, they cited Romans 13:2: "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."
ALL OF THE OT ARE COMMANDS TO ISRAELITE, ANY NON ISRAELITE APPEALING TO THE OT AS AN EXCUSE TO KILL IS WRONG, BIBLICALLY. The puritans claim to follow jesus, them quoting the psalms to vindicate their actions is desperation by them because OBVIOUSLY there is no NT scripture for them to refer to. Anyone can point to anything and manipulate it to suit their own greed, yet that alone doesn’t make what they are claiming is authentic.

I already showed you what jesus will say to them:

Mat 7.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.





ROMANS 13 SAYS THIS:
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth
As you can see, the koran explicitly in many places orders muslims to wage eternal jihad against the unbelievers. The koran also shows that the muslims who refuse to go on jihad are an abomination.

Hurt4ever
No different than the JEALOUS god of the OLD TESTAMENT, you know the one, that killed all of the worshipers of other gods?
Can you please post where the biblical God calls people filth because they won't kill?


IBN KHULDUN, one of the most famous islamic historians had this to say in the 14 century concerning those who follow the OT:

(Unlike Muslims), the other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defence... They are merely required to establish their religion among their own people. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun#On_the_Jews

I think thats enuff for you.
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Old 29-11-2011, 05:03 PM   #52
hurt4ever1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
I cleared this up. first, what would be the definition of a true scotsman?, then do the ones claiming they are scotsman match up to the definition? Its very simple..
Again, if you cannot figure it out, then that is on you, not on me.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
IF A MAN SAYS HE IS A PEACEMAKER, YET IS A WARMONGER, CAN THEY REALLY BE A PEACEMAKER? NO!
[QUOTE]

I don't know, ask Jesus, REMEMBER IT SAYS HE CAME TO BRING A SWORD AND NOT PEACE. WHAT ARE SWORDS USED FOR?

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the word 'peacemaker' = warmonger.
[QUOTE]

Hey, I just quoted the verses that say this, surely, you could have read the bible yourself and figured this out, but you didn't.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
IF A PARENT SAYS THEY ARE A LOVING PARENT WHILE THEY ARE ABUSING THEIR CHILDREN CAN THEY REALLY BE DEFINED AS A 'GOOD PARENT'? NO!
[QUOTE]

A loving parent wouldn't sacrifice his son either.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the word 'good parent' = child abuser.
[QUOTE]

If I loved the world so much that I sacrificed one of my children for the sins of the world, would I be a good parent or a child abuser?



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
IF A MAN SAYS HE RESPECTS AND HONORS WOMEN, BUT YET IS A RAPIST, CAN THEY REALLY 'RESPECT WOMEN'? NO!
[QUOTE]

YES, they can say that, and I have seen many a Christian man say that, but when it all comes down to it, they think the women are subservient.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the words 'respectful towards women' = rapist
[QUOTE]

Which is why we see so many Christians being brought up on charges of child molestation.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
CAN A PERSON WHO CALLS THEMSELVES A CHRISTIAN REALLY BE A CHRISTIAN WHEN THEY DO EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE TO WHAT THEIR OWN DOCTRINE SAYS? NO!
[QUOTE]

Yes, they can, because the OLD TESTAMENT is connected to the NEW TESTAMENT and by that alone, people believe that the 'LORD' was the father of Jesus and now they call Jesus LORD. Go figure.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the word 'christian' = killer, robber.
[QUOTE]

ONLY WHEN THE SHOE FITS.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
SO IN FACT, THE FALLACY IS 100% YOURS DEAR.
[QUOTE]

No it isn't my fallacy, you are the one that decided who was Christian or not. That fallacy falls on your head.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Case closed on that one. I don't even need you hurt4ever to authenticate it.
[QUOTE]

No case is closed, you haven't proven anything except your own ignorance.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Rev 21:8
But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."


But you, O God, will bring down the wicked into the pit of corruption; bloodthirsty and deceitful men will not live out half their days. But as for me, I trust in you. Psalm 55:23
[QUOTE]

WHOO, you quoted two verses...I am surprised you even have a bible, for obviously, you are not a 'TRUE' Christian.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW WHAT IS A FALLACY IN WHAT I HAVE SAID, CALLING SOMETHING A FALLACY DOESN’T MAKE IT A FALLACY. You have to prove it is a fallacy.
[QUOTE]


TYPING IN ALL CAPS DOESN'T MAKE WHAT YOU SAY ANYTHING BUT LARGER. YES, IT WAS A FALLACY AND THE FACT THAT YOU CANNOT SEE THAT WHAT YOU SAID IS A FALLACY SHOWS THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A FALLACY IS. YOU WERE THE ONE THAT DECIDED THAT THESE WERE NOT TRUE CHRISTIANS, NOT ME, SO YOU ARE THE ONE THAT ACTUALLY COMMITTED THE FALLACY FOR WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE WHO IS CHRISTIAN AND WHO IS NOT? WHO GAVE YOU AUTHORITY TO DECIDE THESE THINGS?


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
A GROUP WHO CALL THEMSELVES A CHARITY BUT IN REALITY ARE A BUNCH OF SELF SERVING THEIVES, IS IT A FALLACY TO SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT A CHARITY IN REALITY, ACCORDING TO THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD? YOU MAY CALL YOURSELF A WOMAN, BUT IF YOU HAVE EVERYTHING A MAN HAS BODYWISE THEN YOU ARE A MAN, YOU DIG?
Very simple, but beyond you. The caps are to help you see better, because you obviously cannot see what is being said.
[QUOTE]

YES, I CAN SEE WHAT IS BEING SAID, BUT I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT. THE BIBLE IS NO DIFFERENT THAN THE KORAN AND IF YOU CANNOT SEE THAT THEN IT IS YOU THAT NEEDS ALL CAPS TO BE ABLE TO SEE.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
YOU HAVE YET TO PROVE ANYTHING IS A FALLACY. FUTHERMORE, DEFINE A FALLACY.
[QUOTE]

fallacy
Noun:

1.A mistaken belief, esp. one based on unsound argument.
2.A failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.
DICTIONARY.COM

THEREFORE, YOUR ARGUEMENT IS INVALID.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
If a muslim does what is completely opposite to what islam teaches, would Muslims say they are a muslim or non muslim? The same rules apply to Christians.
[QUOTE]

THE SAME RULE APPLIES TO THE MUSLIMS.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth
I showed you from the bible that just a person calling themselves christians is NOT ENUFF, a person is judged on their works. The works that you presented, I SHOWED FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES THAT THOSE ACTS ARE CONDEMNED. You can accuse me of any fallacy you want. PROVING THAT IT IS A FALLACY IS IMPOSSIBLE, because it is no fallacy and i have produced the ONLY authority THAT COUNTS, which are the christians scriptures WHich ALONE DETERMINE WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS, AND WHO A CHRISTIAN IS. Just like the environmentalist manifesto/rule book determines what an environmentalists is and what environmentalism is.
[QUOTE]

SO THEN WHY DID JESUS WANT HIS ENEMIES SLAYED IN FRONT OF HIM?


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
What happened with the children of Israel stays with the children of Israel, THERES NOTHING TO IMPLY THAT THE COMMANDS TO ISRAEL APPLIED TO ALL MANKIND. PRETENDING THAT IT IS, IS YOUR OWN FALLACY/IGNORANCE/MISUNDERSTANDING/INSINCERITY.
[QUOTE]

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
AS I SAID TO YOU, CHRISTIANS FOLLOW CHRIST, Did christ kill? did he order killing? did he rob? did he order people to rob? Did any of the biblical characters who followed jesus kill, rob, rape, lie, cheat, covert, minipulate, etc? WELL THEY ARE THE ONLY EXAMPLES WE HAVE AT WHAT DEFINES A CHRISTIAN. IF PEOPLE DO THE OPPOSITE TO WHAT THEY DID THEN THEY CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN BY DEFINITION.
[QUOTE]

JESUS says: I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword

WHAT ARE SWORDS USED FOR?


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
WHAT WILL YOU QUOTE NEXT? WILL YOU QUOTE THE STONING VERSES IN THE OT AND CLAIM THAT CHRISTIANS STONE? THATS THE LEVEL THAT YOU ARE ON. THE ONLY THING THAT DETERMINES WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN IS THE ACTUAL CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES WHICH DEFINE WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS. YOUR ‘SCOTSMAN’ THING IS EVEN IRRELEVANT AS YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW ME HOW EXACTLY THE KILLER CHRISTIANS WERE FOLLOWING CHRIST.
[QUOTE]

YOU SAID IT! KILLER CHRISTIANS....


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Jesus said “pray for those who persecute YOU”. There is absolutely not a single reference where Christians are to persecute others, therefore, any Christian persecuting others is NOT following Christ, so therefore CANNOT be a christian by definition, FACT!
[QUOTE]

WHAT DID JESUS SAY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]

Quote:


THE DIFFERNCE IS, as I have ALREADY COVERED IS, the Koran orders Muslims to persecute ALL MANKIND IF THEY “DISBELIEVE” IN KORAN.

YOU AS YET HAVE NOT SHOWN ME ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN THE BIBLE.

When God said a witch was not to live is something that applied to Israel only, no one else has any business trying to copy something that was NOT given to them. If you read it, you will see that every command that you are now gonna be referring to only applied to Israel and were not eternal commands for Israel to wag war against all mankind. If you pretend that it is, you yourself will be the one living off a fallacy.
[QUOTE]

SO WHAT MADE THE SALEM WITCH KILLERS DECIDE TO KILL WITCHES? COULD HAVE BEEN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE?

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Listen love, I wouldn’t want authority over you. Your own ignorance rules over you. That’s your own business.
[QUOTE]

LISTEN, YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY OVER ME BECAUSE I DO NOT ALLOW YOU TO. YOUR IGNORANCE RULES OVER YOU WHEN YOU GO AROUND CALLING OUT MUSLIMS FOR WHAT IT SAYS IN THEIR HOLY BOOK WHEN IT SAYS THE SAME EXACT THING IN YOUR OWN.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
I HAVE ALREADY CLEAR PROVEN FROM THE SCRIPTURES, WHICH IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY WHICH DETERMINES WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS.
[QUOTE]

YOU HAVENT PROVEN JACK SHIT.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
THOSE PEOPLE WERE WRONG, AND ARE CONDEMNED BY THE SAME CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES. STOP PRETENDING THAT FALSE CHRISTIANS ARE ACTUALLY THE QUINTESSENTIAL FOLLOWERS OF THE BIBLE. THAT’S YOUR OWN FALLACY.[QUOTE]

SO JESUS CAME TO BRING A SWORD AND HE WANTS HIS ENEMIES SLAYED IN FRONT OF HIM BUT YET, WHEN CHRISTIANS DO THIS, YOU CLAIM THAT THEY AREN'T CHRISTIANS....GO FIGURE.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Show us JUST ONE Christian from the bible who did any of the things that you claim? The first Christians were massacred. What happened in America was more to do with a ‘state’ (spain, etc) and nothing to do with religion, FACT![QUOTE]

NO THE FIRST CHRISTIANS WERE THE PURITANS, AND THEY WERE THE ONES DOING THE SLAUGHTERING.






[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
the verse you quote says nothing about God ordering people to kill. SO YOU ARE DENYING GOD THE RIGHT TO SWEEP AWAY HIS ENEMIES?
[QUOTE]

WOW, YOU CANNOT EVEN SEE THE WHAT YOU WROTE.






[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Well there you go, you was claiming that god orders people to be killed for “disbelief”, yet the verses you posted give the reason why they were to be killed, the reasons were: “who fill the temple of their gods with violence and deceit”
So this means, those who were not violent and deceitful were safe, correct? LOL.
[QUOTE]

NO THIS MEANS THAT IF THEY BELIEVED IN OTHER GODS THEN THEY HAD DISBELIEF IN HIM, SO HE HAD THEM KILLED. YOU ASKED FOR IT, YOU GOT IT. AND THEN I SHOW THEM TO YOU AND YOU DENY IT.






[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]

NOTICE, this is God talking about what he will do to HIS OWN PEOPLE for their ACTIONS. ALSO, NOWHERE IN WHAT YOU POSTED HERE IS GOD SAYING HE WILL KILL ANYONE. You obviously are not reading what you yourself are posting.
[QUOTE]

ARE YOU BLIND?


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
I don’t see anything wrong there. Like I said, people were punished for the abominations they had committed. If Israel done they same thing they would get the same treatment:

The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God."'" Leviticus 18:1-30




This God obviously has high standards for his people.
[QUOTE]

HIGH STANDARDS? SINCE WHEN IS MURDER, RAPE AND PILLAGE HIGH STANDARDS?


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
And this means what exactly? CLEARLY, this is a descriptive account, NOWHERE is this implying that Israel should attack nations indefinitely, which is the fallacy you are trying to sell here. THESE PEOPLE WERE TOLD DIRECTLY BY THEIR GOD TO DO WHAT THEY WERE COMMANDED TO DO. So if the God who brings you out of bondage asks you to do something, you can be sure that its with your own benefit at heart.

See if anything as great as this has ever happened, or if the like has ever been heard. Has any nation ever heard God speaking out of fire, as you have, and still survived?” (Deuteronomy 4:32–33)




Destroy the people because of their abominations, take the land, but if you do as they did, you will be destroyed also. Theres no favouritism with God when it comes to wickedness. For me, this just shows how just God is.
[QUOTE]

SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOUR GOD GAVE ORDERS TO DESTROY PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED IN ANOTHER GOD BESIDES HIM?

MAYBE HIS PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT TO BE PART OF A MURDEROUS GANG THAT WENT AROUND KILLING PEOPLE FOR THEIR BELIEF...





[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
What you are trying now is whats known as ‘THE TEXAS SHARP SHOOTER FALLACY’, look it up, lol.

I thought we were talking about your first fallacy which was “bible says kill unbelievers”, as yet YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY VERSE WHERE GOD IS ORDERING ANYONE TO BE KILLED FOR “UNBELIEVING”.
[QUOTE]

LETS LOOK: OT GOD SAYS: MURDER, RAPE, PILLAGE
JESUS SAYS: BRING MY ENEMIES BEFORE ME AND SLAY THEM.
THE OT LORD AND THE NT JESUS ARE A TRINITY
SO CHRISTIANS GO OUT AND MURDER RAPE AND PILLAGE USING THEIR OWN BOOK AS JUSTIFICATION OF DOING SO.

NOPE, NOT THE SHARPSHOOTER FALLACY.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Honestly, you really are exposing yourself to be a dummy who just cuts and pastes without even comprehending what you are reading.
You called it “HUMAN SACRIFICE”, YET THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE WORD “SACRIFICE”. An offering is NOT a SACRIFICE.
[QUOTE]

IF YOU WANT TO CALL NAMES AND THROW FITS BECAUSE I PROVED YOU WRONG, THEN DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

JESUS WAS A HUMAN SACRIFICE. YOU CAN CALL IT WHAT EVER YOU WANT, BUT THAT IS WHAT HE WAS.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
YOU STILL HAVE YET TO POST JUST ONE VERSE WHERE GOD ORDERS PEOPLE TO BE KILLED FOR UNBELIEF. LOOOL.
[QUOTE]

YES, I DID, MANY TIMES OVER, YOUR DENIAL OF THIS IS JUST TYPICAL APOLOGETICS WITH NO COMMON SENSE. IF THEY BELIEVED IN OTHER GODS, THEY ARE GOING TO DO WHAT THE OTHER GOD WANTS OR THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT THE OTHER GOD WANTS, SO THEY WERE KILLED FOR THEIR LACK OF BELIEF OF THE OT GOD.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Theres nothing wrong with being jealous. If I built a house for my wife, furnished it, fed and clothed my kids, paid for all my needs, then a scumbag who just takes from them is the one who my children call father, that’s an insult and of course I would be jealous, so would most normal people. If we can be jealous over what we created, how then can you deny God the same right? If someone was attempting to murder your children you may well murder that person, therefore, please don’t take the same right away from God to act.
[QUOTE]

ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE IT IS...
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit's leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or irritate one another, or be jealous of one another.





Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth View Post
YOU ARE JUST A FOOL. Seriously. ALL THE THINGS YOU MENTIONED ARE CONDEMNED IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES.

FROM NOW ON, ALL I ASK OF YOU TO DO IS, WHEN YOU ARE QUOTING SOMETHING FROM HISTORY, PLEASE POST THE VERSES FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES TO CONFIRM WHETHER THE ACTIONS YOU ARE QUOTING ARE IN FACT FOUND IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES.


No one never said that it was not a holocaust. But Christianity is not responsible, that’s a fact because nowhere in the Christian scriptures does it say to commit mass murder.


AGAIN, EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE SPAINISH, AND NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY.


Bartolomé de las Casas

LAS CASAS WAS A CHRISTIAN AND HE CONDEMNS THE ACTIONS OF THE SPAINSH COLONIZERS. THEREFORE, YOU QUOTING HIM AS EVIDENCE AGAINST THE SPANISH IS ACTUALLY PROVING MY POINT THAT THE ACTIONS OF THE SPANISH WERE NOT CHRISTIAN ACTIONS, IF THEY WERE CHRISTIAN ACTIONS THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR CHRISTIANS LIKE LAS CASAS TO CONDEMN THEM. THANKS!

Bartolomé de las Casas O.P. (c. 1484[1] – 18 July 1566) was a 16th-century Spanish historian, social reformer and Dominican friar. He became the first resident Bishop of Chiapas, and the first officially appointed "Protector of the Indians". His extensive writings, the most famous being "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies" and "Historia de Las Indias", chronicle the first decades of colonization of the West Indies, focusing particularly on the atrocities committed by the colonizers against the Indigenous peoples.

Arriving as one of the first settlers in the New World he participated in, and was eventually compelled to oppose, the atrocities committed against the Native Americans by the Spanish colonists. [It was his christian faith that COMPELLED him to oppose such actions]

gave up his own Indian slaves and encomienda, instead advocating before King Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor on behalf of rights for the natives.
[so it was a christian who opposed the atrocities]

Bartolomé de las Casas spent 50 years of his life actively fighting slavery and the violent colonial abuse of indigenous peoples, especially by trying to convince the Spanish court to adopt a more humane policy of colonization
[wow, thats devoted christian]

Las Casas is often seen as one of the first advocates for universal Human Rights.[2] [wow, so it was a christian who is seen as one of the pioneers of human rights]

Las Casas was finally convinced that all the actions of the Spanish in the New World had been illegal and a great injustice. [hurt4ever, your whole argument CRASHES here] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolo...9_de_las_Casas

Thank you for quoting Las Casas, YOU CATEGORICALLY PROVED WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. Real christians look at Las casas as being true to his faith, yet you ignor him and measure the christian faith by the actions of colonizers, lol.




Las casa is a christian who is giving us these accounts and he as a christian CONDEMNS THOSE ACTIONS. Las casas was correct.

Jesus said if they take your outside garment give them you inner garment. Therefore, killing someone for their parrot is not found in the scripture. THIS IS YOUR STRAWMAN FALLACY.

AGAIN, EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE SPAINISH, AND NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY.



ALL OF THE OT ARE COMMANDS TO ISRAELITE, ANY NON ISRAELITE APPEALING TO THE OT AS AN EXCUSE TO KILL IS WRONG, BIBLICALLY. The puritans claim to follow jesus, them quoting the psalms to vindicate their actions is desperation by them because OBVIOUSLY there is no NT scripture for them to refer to. Anyone can point to anything and manipulate it to suit their own greed, yet that alone doesn’t make what they are claiming is authentic.

I already showed you what jesus will say to them:

Mat 7.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.





ROMANS 13 SAYS THIS:
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.




Can you please post where the biblical God calls people filth because they won't kill?


IBN KHULDUN, one of the most famous islamic historians had this to say in the 14 century concerning those who follow the OT:

(Unlike Muslims), the other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defence... They are merely required to establish their religion among their own people. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun#On_the_Jews

I think thats enuff for you.


AND THIS IS ENOUGH FOR YOU:

Exodus 15:3

The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name.

Last edited by hurt4ever1; 29-11-2011 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 29-11-2011, 08:53 PM   #53
itruth
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[QUOTE=hurt4ever1;1060400351]Again, if you cannot figure it out, then that is on you, not on me.

AND THIS IS ENOUGH FOR YOU:


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
IF A MAN SAYS HE IS A PEACEMAKER, YET IS A WARMONGER, CAN THEY REALLY BE A PEACEMAKER? NO!
[QUOTE]

I don't know, ask Jesus, REMEMBER IT SAYS HE CAME TO BRING A SWORD AND NOT PEACE. WHAT ARE SWORDS USED FOR?


“The first step of Biblical exegesis is usually to review the immediate context (surrounding text) of the passage in question.”

what is meant by the sword is JUDGEMENT. The proof that jesus did not mean ‘make war’ is seen in the scriptures. NOT ONCE DID JESUS RAISE A SWORD, NOR DID ANY OF HIS FOLLOWERS. When peter did raise his sword to defend jesus he was told to put his sword AWAY, he that lives by the sword dies by the sword.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the word 'peacemaker' = warmonger.
[QUOTE]

Hey, I just quoted the verses that say this, surely, you could have read the bible yourself and figured this out, but you didn't.


The first step of Biblical exegesis is usually to review the immediate context (surrounding text) of the passage in question.”
HURT4EVER YOU HAVE BEEN ANSWERED



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
IF A PARENT SAYS THEY ARE A LOVING PARENT WHILE THEY ARE ABUSING THEIR CHILDREN CAN THEY REALLY BE DEFINED AS A 'GOOD PARENT'? NO!
[QUOTE]

A loving parent wouldn't sacrifice his son either.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

you have an inability to deal with the points, that’s why you are now switching to what God did with his son, but God is not a man that he can be measured alongside men, WAS THE NATIVE AMERICAN GOD A MAN? SHALL I MEASURE HIM BY MANS CHANGING STANDARDS? so when I said “parent” I am only talking about HUMANS because they are the only things we can measure.

If God would give up his own son for the world, then that proves that God is greater than you AND MORE GIVING, because you yourself wouldn’t be so giving, correct?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death:

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the word 'good parent' = child abuser.
[QUOTE]
If I loved the world so much that I sacrificed one of my children for the sins of the world, would I be a good parent or a child abuser?

Well, if your knowledge of the Christian scriptures wasn’t as abysmal as it is you would know that the son volunteered himself.

John 10. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
IF A MAN SAYS HE RESPECTS AND HONORS WOMEN, BUT YET IS A RAPIST, CAN THEY REALLY 'RESPECT WOMEN'? NO!
[QUOTE]
YES, they can say that, and I have seen many a Christian man say that, but when it all comes down to it, they think the women are subservient.

YES”? So if a man claims to be something which he is not, he is the thing he claims that he is?

THAT’S MADMANS LOGIC FROM HURT4EVER.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the words 'respectful towards women' = rapist
[QUOTE]
Which is why we see so many Christians being brought up on charges of child molestation.

Again, nowhere in the Christian scriptures does it command rape. If, as you like to do, look at the OT you will see that RAPE CARRIES THE DEATH PENALTY.

Deu 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

AND THE ONE WHO DOES THESE THINGS TO CHILDREN IS THOROUGHLY CONDEMNED BY JESUS, SO THEREFORE THEY CANNOT BE CHRISTIANS BY DEFINITION:

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Therefore these men were going against the very scriptures they claim to represent.

SO HURT4EVER FAILS AGAIN, MISERABLY


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
CAN A PERSON WHO CALLS THEMSELVES A CHRISTIAN REALLY BE A CHRISTIAN WHEN THEY DO EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE TO WHAT THEIR OWN DOCTRINE SAYS? NO!
[QUOTE]
Yes, they can, because the OLD TESTAMENT is connected to the NEW TESTAMENT and by that alone, people believe that the 'LORD' was the father of Jesus and now they call Jesus LORD. Go figure.

Jesus said let he without sin cast the first stone, this is why stoning is NOT TO BE DONE BY CHRISTIANS, you forget, that to Christians jesus IS GOD, so what he said in the form of jesus takes precedence. This is Christianity 101 for dummies.


Also, Christians are to listen to jesus above mosaic law:

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
But the silly reasoning you are presenting would mean that the word 'christian' = killer, robber.
[QUOTE]
ONLY WHEN THE SHOE FITS.

YOUR CREATED SHOE DOESN’T FIT THE BIBLICAL FEET, lol.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
SO IN FACT, THE FALLACY IS 100% YOURS DEAR.
[QUOTE]
No it isn't my fallacy, you are the one that decided who was Christian or not. That fallacy falls on your head.

FALSE!

Now I am starting to think that you have some kind of mental problems. I say that because from the VERY BEGINNING I have been saying that ONLY THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES ALONE DEFINE WHO AND WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN, now here you are are saying:

you are the one that decided who was Christian or not”

HURT4EVER, YOU CRASHED YOURSELF VERY BADLY HERE.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Rev 21:8
But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."


But you, O God, will bring down the wicked into the pit of corruption; bloodthirsty and deceitful men will not live out half their days. But as for me, I trust in you. Psalm 55:23
[QUOTE]

WHOO, you quoted two verses...I am surprised you even have a bible, for obviously, you are not a 'TRUE' Christian.

Well obviously you are a fool. I could have quoted many, but what difference would it make to you? Lol.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW WHAT IS A FALLACY IN WHAT I HAVE SAID, CALLING SOMETHING A FALLACY DOESN’T MAKE IT A FALLACY. You have to prove it is a fallacy.
[QUOTE]

TYPING IN ALL CAPS DOESN'T MAKE WHAT YOU SAY ANYTHING BUT LARGER. YES, IT WAS A FALLACY AND THE FACT THAT YOU CANNOT SEE THAT WHAT YOU SAID IS A FALLACY SHOWS THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A FALLACY IS. YOU WERE THE ONE THAT DECIDED THAT THESE WERE NOT TRUE CHRISTIANS, NOT ME, SO YOU ARE THE ONE THAT ACTUALLY COMMITTED THE FALLACY FOR WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE WHO IS CHRISTIAN AND WHO IS NOT? WHO GAVE YOU AUTHORITY TO DECIDE THESE THINGS?

‘YAWNS’


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
A GROUP WHO CALL THEMSELVES A CHARITY BUT IN REALITY ARE A BUNCH OF SELF SERVING THEIVES, IS IT A FALLACY TO SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT A CHARITY IN REALITY, ACCORDING TO THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD? YOU MAY CALL YOURSELF A WOMAN, BUT IF YOU HAVE EVERYTHING A MAN HAS BODYWISE THEN YOU ARE A MAN, YOU DIG?

Very simple, but beyond you. The caps are to help you see better, because you obviously cannot see what is being said.
[QUOTE]


YES, I CAN SEE WHAT IS BEING SAID, BUT I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT. THE BIBLE IS NO DIFFERENT THAN THE KORAN AND IF YOU CANNOT SEE THAT THEN IT IS YOU THAT NEEDS ALL CAPS TO BE ABLE TO SEE.

HAVE YOU EVEN READ KORAN MUCH LESS STUDIED IT? IF YOU HAVEN’T, YOU ARE IN NO POSITION TO COMPARE THE BIBLE AND THE KORAN.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
YOU HAVE YET TO PROVE ANYTHING IS A FALLACY. FUTHERMORE, DEFINE A FALLACY.
[QUOTE]

fallacy
Noun:

1.A mistaken belief, esp. one based on unsound argument.
2.A failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.
DICTIONARY.COM

THEREFORE, YOUR ARGUEMENT IS INVALID.


Fallacy then clearly describes your own argument. THE PERSON LAS CASAS WHOM YOU QUOTED PROVES THAT YOUR ARGUMENT IS A TOTAL FALLACY.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
If a muslim does what is completely opposite to what islam teaches, would Muslims say they are a muslim or non muslim? The same rules apply to Christians.
[QUOTE]
THE SAME RULE APPLIES TO THE MUSLIMS.

THE KORAN DETERMINES WHAT AND WHO IS A MUSLIM. THE KORAN IS VERY CLEAR.

"Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words, and wipe the unbelievers out to the last." Qur'an 8:7:

You, I and the david ickes of this world are the unbelievers. If the Muslims were strong enough, they would be obliged to remove our heads from our shoulders.

“You have had a good example in God's Messenger for whosoever hopes for God and the Last Day, and remembers God oft.” Q. 33:21 http://answering-islam.org/authors/alfadi/jihad.html

‘The apostal of allah said: “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and…. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'" http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx...SubjectID=9927
FOLLOWING MUHUMADS EXAMPLE JUST AS THE KORAN ORDERS Muslims TO DO:

Al-Fawzan's best-known textbook, "Al-Tawheed – Monotheism," (taught to Saudi high school students) says most Muslims are polytheists, and THEIR BLOOD AND MONEY ARE THEREFORE FREE FOR THE TAKING BY “TRUE MUSLIMS”. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35518


FOLLOWING MUHAMMADS EXAMPLE JUST AS THE KORAN ORDERS Muslims TO DO:

Saudi girl, eight, married off to 58-year-old is denied divorce, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...a-human-rights



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Quote:
Originally Posted by itruth
I showed you from the bible that just a person calling themselves christians is NOT ENUFF, a person is judged on their works. The works that you presented, I SHOWED FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES THAT THOSE ACTS ARE CONDEMNED. You can accuse me of any fallacy you want. PROVING THAT IT IS A FALLACY IS IMPOSSIBLE, because it is no fallacy and i have produced the ONLY authority THAT COUNTS, which are the christians scriptures WHich ALONE DETERMINE WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS, AND WHO A CHRISTIAN IS. Just like the environmentalist manifesto/rule book determines what an environmentalists is and what environmentalism is.
[QUOTE]

SO THEN WHY DID JESUS WANT HIS ENEMIES SLAYED IN FRONT OF HIM?

SILLY, luke 19.27 is a parable told by jesus about a NOBLEMAN.

“Luk 19:12 He (JESUS) said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

NOW ASK YOURSELF THIS: DID JESUS HAVE ENEMIES? IF HE DID HAVE ENEMIES WHY THEN WERE NONE BROUGHT BEFORE JESUS AND SLAIN?

When they came to take jesus and peter drew his sword that would have been a good time to “SLAY THE ENEMY” RIGHT? But jesus told peter to put his sword away, correct?

Luke 19.27 is about the judgement day. The one who creates has the right to judge his own creation. Your permission or agreement hurt4ever is not required, sorry.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
What happened with the children of Israel stays with the children of Israel, THERES NOTHING TO IMPLY THAT THE COMMANDS TO ISRAEL APPLIED TO ALL MANKIND. PRETENDING THAT IT IS, IS YOUR OWN FALLACY/IGNORANCE/MISUNDERSTANDING/INSINCERITY.
[QUOTE]

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
AS I SAID TO YOU, CHRISTIANS FOLLOW CHRIST, Did christ kill? did he order killing? did he rob? did he order people to rob? Did any of the biblical characters who followed jesus kill, rob, rape, lie, cheat, covert, minipulate, etc? WELL THEY ARE THE ONLY EXAMPLES WE HAVE AT WHAT DEFINES A CHRISTIAN. IF PEOPLE DO THE OPPOSITE TO WHAT THEY DID THEN THEY CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN BY DEFINITION.
[QUOTE]

JESUS says: I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword

WHAT ARE SWORDS USED FOR?

The sword again is a metaphor for JUDGEMENT. The very fact that jesus never once used a sword is the proof of this.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
WHAT WILL YOU QUOTE NEXT? WILL YOU QUOTE THE STONING VERSES IN THE OT AND CLAIM THAT CHRISTIANS STONE? THATS THE LEVEL THAT YOU ARE ON. THE ONLY THING THAT DETERMINES WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN IS THE ACTUAL CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES WHICH DEFINE WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS. YOUR ‘SCOTSMAN’ THING IS EVEN IRRELEVANT AS YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW ME HOW EXACTLY THE KILLER CHRISTIANS WERE FOLLOWING CHRIST.
[QUOTE]

YOU SAID IT! KILLER CHRISTIANS....

Like when I said you are a fool? Ok, kool.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Jesus said “pray for those who persecute YOU”. There is absolutely not a single reference where Christians are to persecute others, therefore, any Christian persecuting others is NOT following Christ, so therefore CANNOT be a christian by definition, FACT!
[QUOTE]

WHAT DID JESUS SAY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT?

You tell me?

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Quote:
THE DIFFERNCE IS, as I have ALREADY COVERED IS, the Koran orders Muslims to persecute ALL MANKIND IF THEY “DISBELIEVE” IN KORAN.

YOU AS YET HAVE NOT SHOWN ME ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN THE BIBLE.
When God said a witch was not to live is something that applied to Israel only, no one else has any business trying to copy something that was NOT given to them. If you read it, you will see that every command that you are now gonna be referring to only applied to Israel and were not eternal commands for Israel to wag war against all mankind. If you pretend that it is, you yourself will be the one living off a fallacy.
[QUOTE]

SO WHAT MADE THE SALEM WITCH KILLERS DECIDE TO KILL WITCHES? COULD HAVE BEEN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE?
Well, if the salem folk were the children of Israel you might have a case. The fact that they never claimed to be and presented themselves as Christians proves that they were not following Christ and therefore misguided. THIS CAN BE PROVEN BY THE FACT THAT MODERN CHRISTIANS ON THE WHOLE DO NOT SEEK TO PUT WITCHES TO DEATH.


LIKE JESUS SAID: “LET HE WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE”. So, if these people had sin they would have condemned themselves. CLEAR!

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Listen love, I wouldn’t want authority over you. Your own ignorance rules over you. That’s your own business.
[QUOTE]

LISTEN DICK, YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY OVER ME BECAUSE I DO NOT ALLOW YOU TO. YOUR IGNORANCE RULES OVER YOU WHEN YOU GO AROUND CALLING OUT MUSLIMS FOR WHAT IT SAYS IN THEIR HOLY BOOK WHEN IT SAYS THE SAME EXACT THING IN YOUR OWN.


Why do you keep saying that I am trying to claim authority over you? That’s twice you have said that. Do you have issues with men or something? If you do, take it elsewhere yeah, because I can’t be debating your baggage.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
I HAVE ALREADY CLEAR PROVEN FROM THE SCRIPTURES, WHICH IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY WHICH DETERMINES WHAT A CHRISTIAN IS.
[QUOTE]
YOU HAVENT PROVEN JACK SHIT.

Fine, that’s your opinion, I don’t need you to agree with me.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
THOSE PEOPLE WERE WRONG, AND ARE CONDEMNED BY THE SAME CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES. STOP PRETENDING THAT FALSE CHRISTIANS ARE ACTUALLY THE QUINTESSENTIAL FOLLOWERS OF THE BIBLE. THAT’S YOUR OWN FALLACY.[QUOTE]

SO JESUS CAME TO BRING A SWORD AND HE WANTS HIS ENEMIES SLAYED IN FRONT OF HIM BUT YET, WHEN CHRISTIANS DO THIS, YOU CLAIM THAT THEY AREN'T CHRISTIANS....GO FIGURE.

NOT ONE CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION INTERPRETATIONS THINGS AS YOU HAVE. Would you prefer that Christians looked at things as you have presented?


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Show us JUST ONE Christian from the bible who did any of the things that you claim? The first Christians were massacred. What happened in America was more to do with a ‘state’ (spain, etc) and nothing to do with religion, FACT![QUOTE]

NO THE FIRST CHRISTIANS WERE THE PURITANS, AND THEY WERE THE ONES DOING THE SLAUGHTERING.

THE FIRST CHRISTIANS WERE THE PURITANS”? yeah? What history books are you reading? You should try and get back your money if you can..

“The Puritans were a significant grouping of English Protestants in the 16th and 17th”

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

“Jesus was charged by the Jews with blasphemy as claiming to be Allah or the son of Allah. The Christians except a few early sects which were annihilated by persecution” Abdullah 3.55. Yusef Ali http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslat...nslationBook=4



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
the verse you quote says nothing about God ordering people to kill. SO YOU ARE DENYING GOD THE RIGHT TO SWEEP AWAY HIS ENEMIES?
[QUOTE]
WOW, YOU CANNOT EVEN SEE THE WHAT YOU WROTE.

No, I see clearly what I wrote, you can let your enemies sweep you away if you want, but please don’t expect us or God for that matter to do likewise.

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Well there you go, you was claiming that god orders people to be killed for “disbelief”, yet the verses you posted give the reason why they were to be killed, the reasons were: “who fill the temple of their gods with violence and deceit”
So this means, those who were not violent and deceitful were safe, correct? LOL.
[QUOTE]

NO THIS MEANS THAT IF THEY BELIEVED IN OTHER GODS THEN THEY HAD DISBELIEF IN HIM, SO HE HAD THEM KILLED. YOU ASKED FOR IT, YOU GOT IT. AND THEN I SHOW THEM TO YOU AND YOU DENY IT.

WRONG. 'DISBELIEVING' . God doesn’t say to kill the atheists does he?


A reason for going after false gods is this.

According to what the biblical God wants, if a man divorces his wife, and she goes on to marry another man, taking her back is an abomination:

"If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man,
Answering Islam: and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance. Deut 24:1-4



YET, another god (allah) insists that for the first husband to take back his ex wife she must SEX ANOTHER MAN FIRST.

(Divorce must be pronounced twice) saying: (And if he hath divorced her) i.e. the third time, (then she is not lawful unto him thereafter) after the third divorce (until she hath wedded another husband) and the marriage must be consummated. 2:230 Ibn abbas

Mohammad said: you are not resolved from your fi rst husband until
your second husband tastes your amenity and you taste his, meaning if
husband and wife divorce and decided to reconcile they cant not re-marry
unless the wife has had sex with the second spouse. Fekh Al-Islam.
http://feqh.al-islam.com/Display.asp...46&Diacratic=0


SO OBVIOUSLY, THE PRACTICES BY THE FOLLOWERS OF THESE OTHER GODS ARE DISGUSTING IN THE SIGHT OF THE BIBLICAL GOD AND THEREFORE HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO PUNISH HIS OWN PEOPLE FOR DISREGARDING WHAT HE HAS COMMANDED AND FOLLOWED AFTER THIS OTHER GODS.


If a God delivers a people from bondage and that people go serving idols, then of course the God that delivered them would be angry. Just like if you picked your husband up from the dirt but then he went chasing after prostitutes. How would you feel about that hurt4ever? Would your anger blaze too? The same question would also go to the majority of women, because I don’t know what kind of strange person you are, you may even turn around and say that you like you husband whom you raised up to do that, but I am sure that most women would disagree with such madness.

Gods prerogative = an exclusive right, privilege, etc., exercised by virtue of rank, office, or the like: the prerogatives of a senator.


QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]

NOTICE, this is God talking about what he will do to HIS OWN PEOPLE for their ACTIONS. ALSO, NOWHERE IN WHAT YOU POSTED HERE IS GOD SAYING HE WILL KILL ANYONE. You obviously are not reading what you yourself are posting.
[QUOTE]

ARE YOU BLIND?

No I am not blind. Where does it say “kill”? Instead of asking if I am blind why didn’t you point out what I asked for? THAT’S HOW YOU REFUTE SOMEONE.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
I don’t see anything wrong there. Like I said, people were punished for the abominations they had committed. If Israel done they same thing they would get the same treatment:

The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God."'" Leviticus 18:1-30

This God obviously has high standards for his people.
[QUOTE]
HIGH STANDARDS? SINCE WHEN IS KILLING PEOPLE AND LOOTING THEIR STUFF HIGH STANDARDS?

NO, what I meant was that if God punishes a people for abominations committed, he will punish his OWN PEOPLE if they do likewise. This is what is meant by ‘high standard’ for his own people, and they are not excluded from punishment.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
And this means what exactly? CLEARLY, this is a descriptive account, NOWHERE is this implying that Israel should attack nations indefinitely, which is the fallacy you are trying to sell here. THESE PEOPLE WERE TOLD DIRECTLY BY THEIR GOD TO DO WHAT THEY WERE COMMANDED TO DO. So if the God who brings you out of bondage asks you to do something, you can be sure that its with your own benefit at heart.

See if anything as great as this has ever happened, or if the like has ever been heard. Has any nation ever heard God speaking out of fire, as you have, and still survived?” (Deuteronomy 4:32–33)

Destroy the people because of their abominations, take the land, but if you do as they did, you will be destroyed also. Theres no favouritism with God when it comes to wickedness. For me, this just shows how just God is.
[QUOTE]
SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOUR GOD GAVE ORDERS TO DESTROY PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED IN ANOTHER GOD BESIDES HIM?

Did I say that? I clearly say “ABOMINATIONS COMMITTED”. Just like the law punishes when people break the law. DID YOUR NATIVE AMERICAN ANCESTORS HAVE CONSEQUENCES FOR ACTIONS?

[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
What you are trying now is whats known as ‘THE TEXAS SHARP SHOOTER FALLACY’, look it up, lol.

I thought we were talking about your first fallacy which was “bible says kill unbelievers”, as yet YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY VERSE WHERE GOD IS ORDERING ANYONE TO BE KILLED FOR “UNBELIEVING”.
[QUOTE]

LETS LOOK: OT GOD SAYS: MURDER, RAPE, PILLAGE
JESUS SAYS: BRING MY ENEMIES BEFORE ME AND SLAY THEM.
THE OT LORD AND THE NT JESUS ARE A TRINITY
SO CHRISTIANS GO OUT AND MURDER RAPE AND PILLAGE USING THEIR OWN BOOK AS JUSTIFICATION OF DOING SO.


SHOW US THOSE WORDS “MURDER RAPE PILLAGE”, CAN YOU? Like I said before, every story has its back ground story, if you fail to recognize the full story in any given case, then off course you will find it shocking, but just because hurt4ever finds it shocking, it doesn’t mean that it is outrageous. THE ONE WHO CREATES, HAS EVERY RIGHT TO PASS JUDGEMENT, your permission or authentication is not required hurt4ever.

AND, AS I SAID, EVERYTHING YOU ARE QUOTING IS DESCRIPTIVE, NOT PRESCRIPTIVE, AND THAT’S YOUR FALLACY OF IGNORANCE.


[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Honestly, you really are exposing yourself to be a dummy who just cuts and pastes without even comprehending what you are reading.
You called it “HUMAN SACRIFICE”, YET THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE WORD “SACRIFICE”. An offering is NOT a SACRIFICE.
[QUOTE]

IF YOU WANT TO CALL NAMES AND THROW FITS BECAUSE I PROVED YOU WRONG, THEN DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

JESUS WAS A HUMAN SACRIFICE. YOU CAN CALL IT WHAT EVER YOU WANT, BUT THAT IS WHAT HE WAS.


Well, if a man/God wants to sacrifice himself to redeem others I say great. I don’t have a problem with that at all:

John 10. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:11, 17-18)




[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
YOU STILL HAVE YET TO POST JUST ONE VERSE WHERE GOD ORDERS PEOPLE TO BE KILLED FOR UNBELIEF. LOOOL.
[QUOTE]
YES, I DID, MANY TIMES OVER, YOUR DENIAL OF THIS IS JUST TYPICAL APOLOGETICS WITH NO COMMON SENSE. IF THEY BELIEVED IN OTHER GODS, THEY ARE GOING TO DO WHAT THE OTHER GOD WANTS OR THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT THE OTHER GOD WANTS, SO THEY WERE KILLED FOR THEIR LACK OF BELIEF OF THE OT GOD.



[QUOTE=itruth;1060400147]
Theres nothing wrong with being jealous. If I built a house for my wife, furnished it, fed and clothed my kids, paid for all my needs, then a scumbag who just takes from them is the one who my children call father, that’s an insult and of course I would be jealous, so would most normal people. If we can be jealous over what we created, how then can you deny God the same right? If someone was attempting to murder your children you may well murder that person, therefore, please don’t take the same right away from God to act.
[QUOTE]

ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE IT IS...
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit's leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or irritate one another, or be jealous of one another.


Right, so who is being spoken of? Men right? GOD IS NOT A MAN. MAN DOES NOT DICTATE TO A GOD.

SO NO COMMENTS ABOUT YOUR MATE LAS CASAS? I’m not surprised, because you know he buried your false argument.

Good.

I don’t really have time to be going around in circles with you. You have presented your argument, and I have presented mine. If you decide to respond to this please feel free, but I no longer feel obliged to respond. I may take small slices of what you say, but I will no longer try to answer everything you post to me because I don’t have the time or desire to keep going around in circles with you.


Here is a good article and website that can answer all of your questions here. http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/wenham.html



Exodus 15:3

The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name.


Thats right, It means God knows what war is. Who says God should not know what war is?
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Old 29-11-2011, 09:06 PM   #54
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Exodus 15:3

The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name.


Thats right, It means God knows what war is. Who says God should not know what war is?


It all comes down to this. If you cannot see the problem with this, you need glasses.
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Old 29-11-2011, 10:17 PM   #55
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It all comes down to this. If you cannot see the problem with this, you need glasses.
Some times war is necessary. Knowing war is then an advantage. HISTORY SHOWS (BEFORE THE BIBLE EXISTED) That lands were only defended through strength of arms.

If anyone attacks Gods people, or if Gods people commit abominations, then they find out that God is also a man of war. I have no problem with that. Its only the people who themselves live by the sword and commit abominations should fear.

Quote:
The Two War Gods and the Two Maidens
A Hopi Legend

A long time ago Pöokónghoya and his little brother Balö'ngahoya lived north of the village at the shrine of the Achámali.

One day they heard that two beautiful maidens were watching some fields west of the village of Hû'ckovi, of which the ruins may still be seen a few miles north-west of Oraíbi. They concluded that they would go hunting and at the same time visit those two maidens.

When they arrived there the maidens joyfully greeted them and they were joking and teasing each other. The maidens believed that the two brothers had come with the intention to marry them, and they said, in a half-jesting manner, to their suitors: "We will cut off an arm from each one of you, and if you do not die you may own us."

The younger brother was at once willing, saying to his elder brother: "They are beautiful; let us not be afraid of having our arm cut off." The elder brother hesitated, saying, that they would hurt. So the younger brother said, "I am willing," laid his right arm over the edge of the milling trough at which the maidens had been working, and one of the maidens struck the arm with the upper milling stone and cut it off, the arm dropping into the trough or bin.

His elder brother hereupon laid his arm over the edge of the bin, which consisted of a thin, sharp slab, and the other maiden also cut his arm off with her milling stone. Now the two brothers said: "If we recover, we shall come after you. Hand us our arm, now." The maidens did so and the two brothers left, each one carrying his severed arm, Arriving at their home north of Oraíbi, they told their grandmother what had happened.

"There," she said, "you have been in something again and have done some mischief." "Yes," they said, "We met two beautiful maidens and liked them very much, and so we allowed them to cut off our arms. Very well, she said, "I am going to set you right again." So she asked them to lay down north of the fireplace.

She placed the two arms by their sides, covered them up, whereupon she commenced to sing a song. When she was through singing, she told them now to get up. They did so and found their arms healed. The next day they proceeded to the house of the maidens, who were surprised to see them fully recovered. The older of the two sisters was the prettier one and Pöokónghoya wanted to choose that one.

His younger brother protested, saying: "Yesterday you were not willing to have your arm cut off, as you were then afraid, and now you want to have the first choice. I had my arm cut off first and I am going to choose first," to which his elder brother finally consented. They slept with the maidens that night and then left them and returned to their home north of Oraíbi.

Native American Legends
Quote:
Native American mythology

Qamaits, Nuxálk warrior goddess
Winalagalis, Kwakwaka'wakw god of war

Quote:
Aztec mythology

Huitzilopochtli, god of war and the sun
Itzpapalotl, skeletal warrior goddess
Mextli, god of the moon, born fully armed as a warrior
Mixcoatl, god of fire, war and the hunt
Teoyaomicqui, god of lost dead souls, particularly those who have died in battle
Tezcatlipoca, god associated with the night sky, the night winds, hurricanes, the north, the earth, obsidian, enmity, discord, rulership, divination, temptation, jaguars, sorcery, beauty, war and strife
Toci, goddess of the earth, sometimes associated with war

SO IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT YHWH WAS A MAN OF WAR THAT DESTROYED THE OTHER GODS OF WAR AND ENDED THEIR CAREERS?

YOUR OWN ANCESTORS VENERATED GODS OF WAR, YET THEY GOT DESTROYED. SO MUCH FOR THEIR WAR GODS.

AND IF YOU CONDEMN A GOD FOR HAVING WAR CAPABILITIES, YOU ARE THEREFORE CONDEMNING YOUR OWN ANCESTORS, BECAUSE THEY HAD THEIR OWN GODS OF WAR, CORRECT?

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Old 29-11-2011, 10:24 PM   #56
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Some times war is necessary. Knowing war is then an advantage. HISTORY SHOWS (BEFORE THE BIBLE EXISTED) That lands were only defended through strength of arms.

If anyone attacks Gods people, or if Gods people commit abominations, then they find out that God is also a man of war. I have no problem with that. Its only the people who themselves live by the sword and commit abominations should fear.









SO IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT YHWH WAS A MAN OF WAR THAT DESTROYED THE OTHER GODS OF WAR AND ENDED THEIR CAREERS?

YOUR OWN ANCESTORS VENERATED GODS OF WAR, YET THEY GOT DESTROYED. SO MUCH FOR THEIR WAR GODS.

AND IF YOU CONDEMN A GOD FOR HAVING WAR CAPABILITIES, YOU ARE THEREFORE CONDEMNING YOUR OWN ANCESTORS, BECAUSE THEY HAD THEIR OWN GODS OF WAR, CORRECT?
Again, it all comes down to this.


Exodus 15:3

The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name.'

The LORD was not a god, he was a MAN.

The fact that YOU have venerated a MAN of WAR to a god, shows that you do not know the REAL God.

Attempting to say that MY ancestors did such thing is total LIES. You do not know MY ancestors.
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Old 29-11-2011, 10:44 PM   #57
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Again, it all comes down to this.


Exodus 15:3

The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name.'

The LORD was not a god, he was a MAN.

The fact that YOU have venerated a MAN of WAR to a god, shows that you do not know the REAL God.

Attempting to say that MY ancestors did such thing is total LIES. You do not know MY ancestors.



Exo_15:3

The Lord is a man of war - Perhaps it would be better to translate the words, Jehovah is the man or hero of the battle. Clarke commentary.

A man of war - Compare Psa_24:8. The name has on this occasion a special fitness: man had no part in the victory; the battle was the Lord’s.
The Lord is his name - “Jah is His name.” See Exo_15:2. barnes commentry.


The bible uses many words to give a description of God. Man of war is one. IN NO WAY IS GOD SAYING HE IS A MAN.

Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

THEREFORE, IF YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD IS SAYING THAT HE IS MAN OF WAR LITERALLY MEANING MAN IN THE FLESH, THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO ALSO ADMIT THAT GOD IS LITERALLY A SUN. BUT THE PROBLEM FOR YOU IS, HOW CAN HE BE BOTH MAN AND SUN? THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER IS THAT METAPHOR IS BEING USED.

Quote:
Attempting to say that MY ancestors did such thing is total LIES. You do not know MY ancestors.
STRAWMAN ATTACK ALERT!

WHEN I SAY YOUR ANCESTORS DID ANYTHING?

I MERELY POINTED OUT THAT YOUR OWN ANCESTORS VENERATED GODS OF WAR. AND I ALSO POINTED OUT THAT THEIR WAR GODS DID NOT HELP THEM AGAINST THE SPANISH AND THE OTHER EUROPEANS WHO SILENCED YOUR GODS. Don't hate just because your war Gods were silenced BY MEN OR WAR.

ALSO, you speak about other people and other gods yet you believe that your own ancestors and god cannot be criticized. IF YOU NAME YOUR GODS WE CAN LOOK AT THEM AND THEIR PRACTICES, AND I AM SURE THAT I WILL BE ABLE TO BURY THEM USING THE SAME STANDARD OF MEASUREMENTS THAT YOU HAVE USED ALL DAY TO ATTACK OTHERS. DO YOU EVEN DARE NAME THE GODS OF YOUR ANCESTORS? NAME THEM, LETS SEE WHAT YOU ARE MADE OF OR WHETHER YOU ARE HIDING BEHIND OUR IGNORANCE ABOUT THE CHARACTERS OF THE GODS YOUR PEOPLE USED TO VENERATE?

QUESTION 1: DID YOUR GODS REQUIRE HUMAN SACRIFICE?

Last edited by itruth; 29-11-2011 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 29-11-2011, 11:03 PM   #58
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Hurt4ever, you don't like the fact that the christian God would sacrifice himself for humans, BUT, when you think about it, hurt4ever, you are in no position to criticizes ANYONES GOD, because the gods of your own ancestors use to SACRIFICE THEIR OWN ARMS FOR SEX WITH MAIDENS (VIRGINS), ROFL.

"When they arrived there the maidens joyfully greeted them and they were joking and teasing each other. The maidens believed that the two brothers had come with the intention to marry them, and they said, in a half-jesting manner, to their suitors: "We will cut off an arm from each one of you, and if you do not die you may own us."

The younger brother was at once willing, saying to his elder brother: "They are beautiful; let us not be afraid of having our arm cut off." The elder brother hesitated, saying, that they would hurt. So the younger brother said, "I am willing," laid his right arm over the edge of the milling trough at which the maidens had been working, and one of the maidens struck the arm with the upper milling stone and cut it off, the arm dropping into the trough or bin."

ROFLMAO! too funny!

Two can play that game dear.

Last edited by itruth; 29-11-2011 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 29-11-2011, 11:11 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by itruth View Post
Exo_15:3

The Lord is a man of war - Perhaps it would be better to translate the words, Jehovah is the man or hero of the battle. Clarke commentary.

A man of war - Compare Psa_24:8. The name has on this occasion a special fitness: man had no part in the victory; the battle was the Lord’s.
The Lord is his name - “Jah is His name.” See Exo_15:2. barnes commentry.


The bible uses many words to give a description of God. Man of war is one. IN NO WAY IS GOD SAYING HE IS A MAN.

Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

THEREFORE, IF YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD IS SAYING THAT HE IS MAN OF WAR LITERALLY MEANING MAN IN THE FLESH, THEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO ALSO ADMIT THAT GOD IS LITERALLY A SUN. BUT THE PROBLEM FOR YOU IS, HOW CAN HE BE BOTH MAN AND SUN? THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER IS THAT METAPHOR IS BEING USED.



STRAWMAN ATTACK ALERT!

WHEN I SAY YOUR ANCESTORS DID ANYTHING?

I MERELY POINTED OUT THAT YOUR OWN ANCESTORS VENERATED GODS OF WAR. AND I ALSO POINTED OUT THAT THEIR WAR GODS DID NOT HELP THEM AGAINST THE SPANISH AND THE OTHER EUROPEANS WHO SILENCED YOUR GODS. Don't hate just because your war Gods were silenced BY MEN OR WAR.

ALSO, you speak about other people and other gods yet you believe that your own ancestors and god cannot be criticized. IF YOU NAME YOUR GODS WE CAN LOOK AT THEM AND THEIR PRACTICES, AND I AM SURE THAT I WILL BE ABLE TO BURY THEM USING THE SAME STANDARD OF MEASUREMENTS THAT YOU HAVE USED ALL DAY TO ATTACK OTHERS. DO YOU EVEN DARE NAME THE GODS OF YOUR ANCESTORS? NAME THEM, LETS SEE WHAT YOU ARE MADE OF OR WHETHER YOU ARE HIDING BEHIND OUR IGNORANCE ABOUT THE CHARACTERS OF THE GODS YOUR PEOPLE USED TO VENERATE?

QUESTION 1: DID YOUR GODS REQUIRE HUMAN SACRIFICE?
Again, you LIE, you have gods of war from OTHER religions and you are chalking it up to MY ancestors.

NO, my GOD does not require human sacrifice, but yours did, his name was Jesus.


"“The name of the son of god, Yahweh.”

This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit, though not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El.
Among the other gods worshipped at Ugarit there are Dagon, Tirosch, Horon, Nahar, Resheph, Kotar Hosis, Shachar (who is the equivalent of Satan), and Shalem. The folks at Ugarit were also plagued by a host of demons and lesser gods. The people at Ugarit saw the desert as the place which was most inhabited by demons (and they were like the Israelites in this belief). KTU 1.102:15-28 is a list of these demons.

One of the most famous of the lesser deities at Ugarit was a chap named Dan’il. There is little doubt that this figure corresponds to the Biblical Daniel; while predating him by several centuries. This has led many Old Testament scholars to suppose that the Canonical prophet was modeled on him. His story is found in KTU 1.17 - 1.19.

Another creature which has ties to the Old Testament is Leviathan. Isaiah 27:1 and KTU 1.5 I 1-2 describe this beast. Also see Ps 74:13-14 and 104:26"


The Cult of the Dead at Ugarit

In Ugarit two stela (stone monuments) have been discovered which demonstrate that the people there worshipped their dead ancestors. (Cf. KTU 6.13 and 6.14). The Prophets of the Old Testament likewise protested against this behavior when it occured among the Israelites. Ezekiel denounces such behavior as godless and pagan (in 43:7-9).

Yet the Israelites sometimes participated in these pagan practices, as 1 Sam 28:1-25 clearly shows.

These dead ancestors were known among both the Canaanites and Israelites as “Rephaim”. As Isaiah notes, (14:9ff),

Sheol beneath is stirred up

to meet you when you come;

it rouses the Rephaim to greet you,

all who were leaders of the earth;

it raises from their thrones

all who were kings of the nations.

All of them will speak

and say to you:

“You too have become as weak as we!

You have become like us!”

Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,

and the sound of your harps;

maggots are the bed beneath you,

and worms are your covering.

KTU 1.161 likewise describes the Rephaim as the dead. When one goes to the grave of an ancestor, one prays to them; feeds them; and brings them an offering (like flowers); all in hopes of securing the prayers of the dead.

The prophets despised this behavior; they saw it as a lack of trust in Yahweh, who is God of the living and not god of the dead. So, instead of honoring dead ancestors, Israel honored their live ancestors (as we clearly see in Ex 20:12, Deut 5:16, and Lev 19:3).

One of the more interesting aspects of this ancestor worship at Ugarit was the “festive meal” that the worshipper shared with the depearted, called the “marzeach” (cf. Jer 16:5// with KTU 1.17 I 26-28 and KTU 1.20-22). This was, to the dwellers of Ugarit, what the Passover was to Israel and the Lord’s Supper to the Church.

El was the chief god at Ugarit. Yet El is also the name of God used in many of the Psalms for Yahweh; or at least that has been the presupposition among pious Christians. Yet when one reads these Psalms and the Ugaritic texts one sees that the very attributes for which Yahweh is acclaimed are the same for which El is acclaimed. In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Canaanite hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel, much like the American National Anthem was set to a beer hall tune by Francis Scott Key. El is called the “father of men”, “creator”, and “creator of the creation”. These attributes are also granted Yahweh by the Old Testament.

For instances, read KTU 1. 2 I 13-32 and compare it to many of the Psalms. Also, read Ps 82:1, 89:6-8mn!).

In 1 Kings 22:19-22 we read of Yahweh meeting with his heavenly council. This is the very description of heaven which one finds in the Ugaritic texts. For in those texts the “sons of god” are the sons of El.

Other deities worshipped at Ugarit were El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith. All of these names are applied to Yahweh by the writers of the Old Testament. What this means is that the Hebrew theologians adopted the titles of the Canaanite gods and attributed them to Yahweh in an effort to eliminate them. If Yahweh is all of these there is no need for the Canaanite gods to exist! This process is known as assimilation.

Besides the chief god at Ugarit there were also lesser gods, demons, and goddesses. The most important of these lesser gods were Baal (familiar to all readers of the Bible), Asherah (also familiar to readers of the Bible), Yam (the god of the sea) and Mot (the god of death). What is of great interest here is that Yam is the Hebrew word for sea and Mot is the Hebrew word for death! Is this because the Hebrews also adopted these Canaanite ideas as well? Most likely they did.

One of the most interesting of these lesser deities, Asherah, plays a very important role in the Old Testament. There she is called the wife of Baal; but she is also known as the consort of Yahweh! That is, among some Yahwists, Ahserah is Yahweh’s female counterpart! Inscriptions found at Kuntillet ‘Ajrud (dated between 850 and 750 BCE) say:

I bless you through Yahweh of Samaria,

and through his Asherah!

And at ‘El Qom (from the same period) this inscription:

Uriyahu, the king, has written this.

Blessed be Uriyahu through Yahweh,

and his enemies have been conquered

through Yahweh’s Asherah.

That Yahwists worshipped Asherah until the 3rd century before Christ is well known from the Elephantine Papyri. Thus, for many in ancient Israel, Yahweh, like Baal, had a consort. Although condemned by the prophets, this aspect of the popular religion of Israel was difficult to overcome and indeed among many was never overcome.

As had already been mentioned, one of the more important lesser deities at Ugarit was Baal. Baal is described as the “rider on the clouds” in KTU 1.3 II 40. Interestingly enough, this description is also used of Yahweh in Psalm 68:5. "


In the Old Testament Baal is named 58 times in the singular and 18 times in the plural. The prophets protested constantly against the love affair the Israelites had with Baal (cf. Hosea 2:19, for example). The reason Israel was so attracted to Baal was that, first of all, some Israelites viewed Yahweh as a God of the desert and so when they arrived in Canaan they thought it only proper to adopt Baal, the god of fertility. As the old saying goes, “whose land, his god”. For these Israelites Yahweh was useful in the desert but not much help in the land.






http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm
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Old 29-11-2011, 11:13 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by itruth View Post
Hurt4ever, you don't like the fact that the christian God would sacrifice himself for humans, BUT, when you think about it, hurt4ever, you are in no position to criticizes ANYONES GOD, because the gods of your own ancestors use to SACRIFICE THEIR OWN ARMS FOR SEX WITH MAIDENS (VIRGINS), ROFL.

"When they arrived there the maidens joyfully greeted them and they were joking and teasing each other. The maidens believed that the two brothers had come with the intention to marry them, and they said, in a half-jesting manner, to their suitors: "We will cut off an arm from each one of you, and if you do not die you may own us."

The younger brother was at once willing, saying to his elder brother: "They are beautiful; let us not be afraid of having our arm cut off." The elder brother hesitated, saying, that they would hurt. So the younger brother said, "I am willing," laid his right arm over the edge of the milling trough at which the maidens had been working, and one of the maidens struck the arm with the upper milling stone and cut it off, the arm dropping into the trough or bin."

ROFLMAO! too funny!

Two can play that game dear.
Really? So what was the name of the GOD of my ancestors?
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