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Old 26-03-2011, 02:20 AM   #1
decode reality
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Arrow Money is good for the soul



I was going to write 'money is good for the soul (as well)' but then I thought sod it, I'll put this out there.

The prevailing ideas on this forum regarding money go something like this: 'money is the root of evil', 'poorer people are happier', 'money doesn't really exist', 'if there was no such thing as money, the world would be a better place' etc. It's OK to believe that but those are by and large idealised view points that don't really help in dealing with the reality of life.

If you have little or no money, it's hard to pay your energy bills, feed yourself, even the rent. There's nothing 'spiritual' about being sat indoors with ten duffle coats, 6 pairs of long johns and 4 layers of thermal socks on each toe trying to keep warm (I'm not exaggerating!). What are you going to do when you get that letter from your energy supplier threatening to cut the gas and 'leckie? Write to them and say "Money doesn't really exist?". The only thing that won't exist is the central heating, lighting...and your computer. You know, the one that you paid good money for to sit down and tell everyone how evil money is? I'm sure that when David hires out Brixton Academy, he doesn't tell them that he won't be paying a booking fee because money isn't real. And I doubt he'd tell them that their invoice was a holographic illusion.

Conversely, if you have the money, you don't have to worry about your immediate physical needs and you can focus your mind on things other than surviving. If you accumulate a lot of wealth, you can use it to help others, put together projects that will assist people, etc.

There's this weird idea that to the effect of people who live off the land in rural 'un-westernised' societies just have to sit down cross-legged and be at one with the cosmos every day. No, they have to grow their own food, maybe hunt for their food. That's the reality. It's fine to believe 'money isn't real' and keep pushing that line - though when your stomach starts rumbling and you go to the shop, please don't try to convince the shop-keeper.
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Old 26-03-2011, 02:51 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decode reality View Post


I was going to write 'money is good for the soul (as well)' but then I thought sod it, I'll put this out there.

The prevailing ideas on this forum regarding money go something like this: 'money is the root of evil', 'poorer people are happier', 'money doesn't really exist', 'if there was no such thing as money, the world would be a better place' etc. It's OK to believe that but those are by and large idealised view points that don't really help in dealing with the reality of life.
I was going to retire to my harem of beautiful wenches but this intriguing post caught my attention, in your view what are "the realities of life"..

Quote:
If you have little or no money, it's hard to pay your energy bills, feed yourself, even the rent. There's nothing 'spiritual' about being sat indoors with ten duffle coats, 6 pairs of long johns and 4 layers of thermal socks on each toe trying to keep warm (I'm not exaggerating!).
What is spiritual about being in the minute percentage of the global population who have these things?

You are describing hardship and I think there are spiritual rewards that come from hardship, look at the story of Siddartha Gautama, born a prince and sheltered from the "realities of life" by the opulence of his royal family lineage..


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Conversely, if you have the money, you don't have to worry about your immediate physical needs and you can focus your mind on things other than surviving. If you accumulate a lot of wealth, you can use it to help others, put together projects that will assist people, etc.
What that sounds like to me is CHARITY, ie assuaging the guilt which comes with material inequality and personal wealth by giving charity to those unfortunate enough not to be born Rich, White, British or Male etc...

Charity as opposed to change is reinforcing the idea that people need "help", are victims unable to help themselves and also that you can bestow "help" with the thing which is derived from the contributing factor to most Poverty, ie money (through imperialism, industrialisation, Corporatism etc) Edit: what these "unfortunate ones" require in my view is not more outside interference in their customs; lands and "development" but less interference..


Quote:
There's this weird idea that to the effect of people who live off the land in rural 'un-westernised' societies just have to sit down cross-legged and be at one with the cosmos every day. No, they have to grow their own food, maybe hunt for their food. That's the reality. It's fine to believe 'money isn't real' and keep pushing that line - though when your stomach starts rumbling and you go to the shop, please don't try to convince the shop-keeper.
People who live off the land in Un COlonised societies are mostly dead, further it is at the hands of the cultures who have and do define(d) money, reality and what "progression" is, that these indigenous people have been massacred, lands stolen and polluted and what was the reason for that?

You talk about Shop's and money as if they are real, an inherent facet of reality, naturally sustained and beyond the finite realms of "reality", growing food is not difficult and certainly needn't be iin this day age, trasnporting produce from industrialised agriculture to shops is far more difficult than hunting and growing your own food, look at how many processes are involved in your shops being able to stock food, let alone, store it and sell it, compared to the lifestyle of say hunter gatherer tribes in the Arctic.

Peace

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Old 26-03-2011, 02:59 AM   #3
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Money is great. Empowers and disempowers the responsible exercise of choice. "don't let money fool ya..."

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Old 26-03-2011, 03:00 AM   #4
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money exists as a way of allocating value to resources and as such I would assert its terrible for the soul. In the same way that it is easier to look at a burger and be sheilded from the fact that it was once a living breathing animal and from the life it probably lead, money devalues the necessities of life whilst inflating the value of the luxuries.
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Old 26-03-2011, 03:02 AM   #5
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Sometimes, I'm so damn nostalgic for the 70's that it's pathetic.
I used to hear the O'jays on the radio, and this was spiritual stuff conveyed with soul indeed!

"For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper it carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green"

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Old 26-03-2011, 03:07 AM   #6
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what Osho basically says:

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That is the ultimate synthesis -- when Zorba becomes a Buddha. I am trying to create here not Zorba the Greek but Zorba the Buddha.

Zorba is beautiful, but something is missing. The earth is his, but the heaven is missing. He is earthly, rooted, like a giant cedar, but he has no wings. He cannot fly into the sky. He has roots but no wings.

Eat, drink, and be merry is perfectly good in itself; nothing is wrong in it. But it is not enough. Soon you will get tired of it. One cannot just go on eating, drinking, and merrying. Soon the merry-go-round turns into a sorry-go-round -- because it is repetitive. Only a very mediocre mind can go on being happy with it.

If you have a little inteligence, sooner or later the question is bound to arise: What is the point of it all? Why? It is impossible to avoid the question for long. And if you are very intelligent, it is always there, persistently there, hammering on your heart for the answer: Give me the answer! -- Why?

And one thing to be remembered: it is not that the people who are poor, starving, become frustrated with life -- no. They cannot become frustrated. They have not lived yet -- how can they be frustrated? They have hopes. A poor man always has hopes that something is going to happen -- if not today then tomorrow, or the day after tomorrow; if not in this life then in the next life.

What do you think? Who are these people who have depicted heaven as a playboy Club -- who are these people? Starved, poor, who have missed their life -- they are projecting their desires in heaven. In heaven there are rivers of wine... who are these people who are imagining rivers of wine? They must have missed here. And there are wish-fulfilling trees. You sit underneath them, desire, and the moment you desire, immediately it is fulfilled.

It is only through experience that one comes to know the utter futility of it all. Only Zorbas come to know the utter futility of it all. Buddha himself was a Zorba. He had all the beautiful women available in his country. His father had arranged for all the beautiful girls to be around him. He had the most beautiful palaces -- different paleces for different seasons. He had all the luxury that is possible, or that was possible in those days. Helived the life of a Zorba the Greek -- hence, when he was only twenty-nine he become utterly frustrated. He was a very intelligent man. If he had been a medioce man, then he would have lived in it. But soon he saw the point: it is repatitive, it is the same. Every day you eat, every day you make lavo to a woman... and he had new women every day to make love to. But how long...? Soon he was fed up.

The experience of life is very bitter. it is sweet only in imagination. In its reality it is very bitter. He escaped from the palace and the women and the riches and the luxury and everything.

So, I am not against Zorba the Greek because Zorba the Greek is the very foundation of Zorba the Buddha. Buddha arises out of that experience. So I am all for this world, because I know the other world can only be experienced through this world. So I don't say escape from it, I will not say to you to become a monk. A monk is one who has moved against the Zorba; he is an escapist, a coward; he has done something in a hurry, out of unintelligence. He is not a mature person. A monk is immature, greedy -- greedy for the other world, and wants it too early, and the season has not come, and he is not ripe yet.

Live in this world, because this world gives a ripening, maturity, integrity. The challenges of this world give you a centering, an awareness. And that awareness becomes the ladder. Then you can move from Zorba to Buddha.

Only Zorbas become Buddhas -- and Buddha was never a monk, A monk is one who has never been a Zorba and has become enchanted by the words of Buddhas. A monk is an imitator, he is false, pseudo. He imitates Buddhas. He may be Christian, he may be Buddhist, he may be a Hindu -- that doesn't make much difference -- but he imitates Buddhas.

When a monk goes away from the world, he goes fighting with it. it is not a relaxed going. His whole being is pulled towards the world. He struggles against it. He becomes divided. Half of his being is for the world and half has become greedy for the other. He is torn apart. A monk is basically a schizophrenic, a split person, divided into the lower and the higher. And the lower goes on pulling him, and the lower becomes more and more attractive the more it is repressed. And because he has not lived the lower, he cannot get into the higher.

You can get into the higher only when you have lived through the lower. You can earn the higher only by going through all the agony and the ecstasy of the lower. Before a lotus becomes a lotus it has to move through the mud -- that mud is the world. The monk has escaped from the mud, he will never become a lotus. It is as if lotus seed is afraid of falling into mud -- maybe out of ego that, "I am lotus seed! And I cannot fall into the mud." But then it is going to remain a seed; it will never bloom as a lotus. If it wants to bloom like a lotus, it has to fall into the mud; it has to live this contradiction. Without this contradiction of living in the mud there is no going beyond.

I would like to you to become rooted into the earth. I am perfectly in agreement with Friedrich Nietzsche who says: "I beseech you, my brothers, remain faithful to the earth and do not believe in those who speak of other worldly hopes!" Learn your first lesson of trust by trusting the earth. It is your home right now!

Don't hanker for the other world. Live this world, and live it with intensity, with passion. Live it with totality, with your whole being. And out of that whole trust, out of that life of passion, love, and joy, you will become able to go beyond.

The other world is hidden in this world. The Buddha is asleep in the Zorba. It has to be awakened. And nobody can awaken you except life itself.

I am here to help you to be total wherever you are; in whatsoever state you are -- live that state totally. It is only in living a thing totally that one transcends it.

First become a Zorba, a flower of this earth, and earn the capacity through it to become a Buddha -- the flower of the other world. The other world is not away from this world; the other world is not against this world: the other world is hidden in this. This is only a anifestataion of the other, and the other is the unmanifest part of this.
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Old 26-03-2011, 03:09 AM   #7
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You're right in one aspect, having money allows you much freedoms to pursue your interests and make a difference.

However, that is the problem, in order to best pursue your interests and make a difference in the world, you need money.

So the pursuit of personal wealth is the goal, first and foremost. This I believe is detrimental to the spirit, and creates a situation where people are stepping on each others heads to get one up over the next guy.
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Old 26-03-2011, 03:41 AM   #8
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Money is a transaction system, that is all.
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Old 26-03-2011, 08:11 AM   #9
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Money acquisition starts off as a survival call and ends up as soulless goal in itself. There's factual proof that beyond certain point people are not happier with more money, it's just psychosis.
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There's no sensation to compare with this. Suspended animation, a state of bliss.
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Old 26-03-2011, 08:40 AM   #10
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There's nothing noble, spiritual or worthy about being impoverished. Money is just a means, it's neutral. If you want to have then there is nothing wrong with that, if you want to be rich then go for it. Spiritual development cannot ONLY be gained when in an impoverished state. There are many paths.
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Old 26-03-2011, 08:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allure View Post
You're right in one aspect, having money allows you much freedoms to pursue your interests and make a difference.

However, that is the problem, in order to best pursue your interests and make a difference in the world, you need money.

So the pursuit of personal wealth is the goal, first and foremost. This I believe is detrimental to the spirit, and creates a situation where people are stepping on each others heads to get one up over the next guy.
+1

If we can solve our energy problem, and would finally tap into the unlimited energy containing vacuum, oohh, that was an explosion of creativity on this planet.
If we could materialize stuff, why money?
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Old 26-03-2011, 09:12 AM   #12
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Old 26-03-2011, 12:05 PM   #13
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Money isn't real in another sense, in that banks are creating money out of nothing without actually sustaining a loss,
then charging people interest on top of the money loaned out that cost them nothing to make.
The only way to pay it back is through your sweat equity and as such is the fact that money is really debt,
only the illusion of money creating freedom exists.
The reality is that the mechanisms that are bestowed upon us create a slave system.

Only the Creator(s) can create something out of nothing.
Apparently not.

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Old 26-03-2011, 12:58 PM   #14
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Talking Abundance! There is lots of abundance

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+1

If we can solve our energy problem, and would finally tap into the unlimited energy containing vacuum, oohh, that was an explosion of creativity on this planet.
If we could materialize stuff, why money?


If you don't think of "money" but think of abundance you will have a greater chance of experiencing it. As Tinyint says we know free energy exists, we only have to get it out into the open and yes there will be an explosion of creativity.

I know lots of rich people and I have family who are super rich but they are not truly happy. They have to live behind walls and gates, their fears are greater because they believe they have more to lose!

Mostly they suffer from affluenza!!

If you are truly short of cash look around you and see what do people need? Can you solve any of their small problems, will they compensate you for your help? Can you paint, decorate, garden, fix things or sew?


One friend of mine helped herself very creativly! She enjoyed walking along the river banks and the shore. She always collected beautiful small stones and got the idea to paint these as gratitude, love and joy, as names and smily faces on them.

She sold these at the local market for people to give as gifts and she also got commissions for particular stones with patterns etc on them. The first prices she charged was £5. then she got small gift boxes and was able to charge £10.

It is her full time job now and she loves it that while she is enjoying the outdoors she is earning a living.

As Joseph Campbell said "Follow your bliss" IT WORKS
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Old 26-03-2011, 01:38 PM   #15
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Thanks for posting this. I have been having one of those weeks were money troubles have been impossible to avoid and have been seriously getting me down.

And theres the gist. I do avoid it, like an ostrich burying its head in the sand because I just don't want to sell my soul for moneys sake.

It's one of those areas in my life where I am still very caught up in the storyline too much of the time, bounded by the seeming laws of this world where money is concerned. I am feeling backed into a corner where I can no longer avoid the issue.

Thanks for the reminder that there are other ways that are outside of the box to get past or beyond this seeming dilemma. I need to step away and start seeing this from various vantage points.

Again, Thanks. I think this will be my theme for the next week as I have much to think and unthink about.
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Old 26-03-2011, 01:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decode reality View Post


I was going to write 'money is good for the soul (as well)' but then I thought sod it, I'll put this out there.

The prevailing ideas on this forum regarding money go something like this: 'money is the root of evil', 'poorer people are happier', 'money doesn't really exist', 'if there was no such thing as money, the world would be a better place' etc. It's OK to believe that but those are by and large idealised view points that don't really help in dealing with the reality of life.

If you have little or no money, it's hard to pay your energy bills, feed yourself, even the rent. There's nothing 'spiritual' about being sat indoors with ten duffle coats, 6 pairs of long johns and 4 layers of thermal socks on each toe trying to keep warm (I'm not exaggerating!). What are you going to do when you get that letter from your energy supplier threatening to cut the gas and 'leckie? Write to them and say "Money doesn't really exist?". The only thing that won't exist is the central heating, lighting...and your computer. You know, the one that you paid good money for to sit down and tell everyone how evil money is? I'm sure that when David hires out Brixton Academy, he doesn't tell them that he won't be paying a booking fee because money isn't real. And I doubt he'd tell them that their invoice was a holographic illusion.

Conversely, if you have the money, you don't have to worry about your immediate physical needs and you can focus your mind on things other than surviving. If you accumulate a lot of wealth, you can use it to help others, put together projects that will assist people, etc.

There's this weird idea that to the effect of people who live off the land in rural 'un-westernised' societies just have to sit down cross-legged and be at one with the cosmos every day. No, they have to grow their own food, maybe hunt for their food. That's the reality. It's fine to believe 'money isn't real' and keep pushing that line - though when your stomach starts rumbling and you go to the shop, please don't try to convince the shop-keeper.
Money will be abolished
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Old 26-03-2011, 01:50 PM   #17
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Will you be saying the same when we're cashless..what then, will it still be 'good for the soul'?
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Old 26-03-2011, 02:07 PM   #18
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funny thread. I didn't create this system but I have to live in it. That is all. Money is not evil but from my current understanding when I weight pros and cons the money system is obsolete and creates the most misery and negative emotions and actions derivate from it. In a non monetary system we would all tap each other on the shoulder and help one another. Monetary system is the left over from day of Royals and Kings. Those who lived of the back bones of the serfs enjoying hedonistic pleasures and condemned those under for the most benign "crimes". I was born a human and they want to make me into a money making robot. I want to live and they want to make me a slave. I want to solve problems while they perpetuate it. I want to do the right thing and they laugh about it. Enough is Enough. Internet will be their doom mark my words.
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Old 26-03-2011, 02:25 PM   #19
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There are enough resources on this planet for every single human being's needs to be met many, many, many times over.

'Money' is a system of control designed to put the majority of worlds resources into the hands of a tiny few, for reasons that are beyond me.
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Old 26-03-2011, 02:26 PM   #20
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That cartoon (in the OP) really captures my thinking about money, it's spooky!
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