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Old 19-09-2011, 08:09 PM   #1
yozhik
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Default No money, no financial system, no ownership.

Points to discuss;

Why do we need money?
A financial system?
The notion of ownership?

If there is no 'money tokens', the concept of 'capital accumulation' in individuals is rejected, and all production is by the community, for the community needs.

Greed is eradicated.
The inherent sense of 'belonging' is nurtured.
Our roles as guardians for future generations is elevated.

Primary focus becomes satisfying needs nots wants.
Commerce is eradicated.
Banks are not required.
There is no debt.


For those who subscribe to The Bible;
1 Timothy 6:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.


One of the kneejerk arguments is 'motivation'. or lack thereof.
Whilst this may be the initial reaction due to generational programming and constant mind influence regarding the goodness of money and capitalism, once this addiction has been removed, there is very little in terms of lack of motivation. The needs of you, your family and your community need to be met. That's motivation.


Discuss.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman

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Old 19-09-2011, 08:10 PM   #2
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Complex societies need a medium of exchange.
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:13 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by bertieb View Post
Complex societies need a medium of exchange.
Explain.

That also appears to be founded on the presumption that a 'complex society' is the optimal use of resources.

Recent history would strongly suggest otherwise.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:14 PM   #4
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How do I get an apple from the grocers?
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:16 PM   #5
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How do I get an apple from the grocers?
Ask for it.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:20 PM   #6
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Can I have an apple?
Yes but you have to do something for me first.
What?
What can you do?
Nothing really, I can weld though
I dont need anything welding..

mmm now what, I only want an apple.


Civilisations have been using money for over 5000 years its here to stay.
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yozhik View Post
Points to discuss;

Why do we need money?
A financial system?
The notion of ownership?
We don't.

"From each according to their vulnerability, to each according to their greed".

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Old 19-09-2011, 08:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertieb View Post
Can I have an apple?
Yes but you have to do something for me first.
What?
What can you do?
Nothing really, I can weld though
I dont need anything welding..

mmm now what, I only want an apple.


Civilisations have been using money for over 5000 years its here to stay.
Society can create an abundance of necessities rendering scarcity & money obsolete.
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Society can create an abundance of necessities rendering scarcity & money obsolete.
How do you propose to cope without a medium of exchange?
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertieb View Post
How do I get an apple from the grocers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yozhik View Post
Ask for it.
I want a thousand apples.
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertieb View Post
How do you propose to cope without a medium of exchange?
Cope?
How do you usually 'cope' with something you don't need?


Seriously ... smaller communities ... producing according to their needs.
Grocer?
WTF is a 'grocer'?
Is that a term of commerce?
A 'middle man'?

Sorry dude ... no money = no commerce = no middle man.

May I have an apple ... I weld ... don't need a welder ... is a redundant argument. There is no ownership. All the apples belong to the community and are offset by the contribution of each community member, to the community.

Community doesn't need a welder?
OK ... so demand dictates no welding required.
Contribute another way.

Your questions appear to be limited to the existing paradigm of large, commercial, trading nations ... which is actually one of the symptoms of the malignancy.

Smaller, self sufficient communities, producing according to needs.
Remember; no money, no financial system, no commerce, no ownership, no capital accumulation.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:51 PM   #12
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Money is a convenient medium of exchange, its essential in our current society, if you wish to go back to the dark ages where we all have small communities of a few houses in a little village where everyone has a skill and everyone can be trusted then money wouldn't be required, however life has progressed from that.
If you wish to go back to freezing you nads off all winter and toiling in the fields all summer then thats fine, its not for me though.
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumpelstilzchen View Post
I want a thousand apples.
Want?
Or need?

Is that request in the best interests of the community?
Or driven by selfish intent?
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman

Last edited by yozhik; 19-09-2011 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Community doesn't need a welder?
Are you planning to have nothing at all made of metal?

Im going to bow out now as this is a little silly
I will leave the thread for others of the same mindset.
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yozhik View Post
Want?
Or need?
Want.
Can't I have them?
Using money I can have as many apples as I want.

Quote:
Is that request in the best interests of the community?
Or driven by selfish intent?
Well, obviously the amount of apples available to the community in the scenario you describe has greatly diminished since the abolition of money. What was not selfish at one time appears to be frowned upon now.
A step backwards methinks.
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:57 PM   #16
yozhik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertieb View Post
Money is a convenient medium of exchange, its essential in our current society, if you wish to go back to the dark ages where we all have small communities of a few houses in a little village where everyone has a skill and everyone can be trusted then money wouldn't be required, however life has progressed from that.
If you wish to go back to freezing you nads off all winter and toiling in the fields all summer then thats fine, its not for me though.
That's a really lazy and flippant argument.

Why do you assume that no money means returning back to the dark ages?
Why does no money suddenly result in no existing technology?

I put it to you that it is BECAUSE of money that much of the existing technology is coveted and suppressed.

I put it to you that if there was no money and all information and technology became opensource, simply because there was no longer any motivation to covet it, we would have access to superior technology than we currently have.

So rather than no money being a catalyst for devolution, I strongly suggest it would the catalyst for advancement along the evolutionary path.

But any argument predicting no water, no electricity, no technology, no heat, etc is bunkum. ALL of those things exist today and can be given without the existence of money. All it takes is sweat equity, sense of community and for-giving.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman
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Old 19-09-2011, 08:58 PM   #17
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interesting post
the concept of money in the current system is based on debt, but with Biblical analyses you might find the concept turned on its head, for example if you have loads of debt notes are you rich? these debt notes are in reality owed to the producers of goods [a workman is worth his earnings] which we consider to be the poor, but are they as they have no debt notes? so biblically and morally speaking the meek who inherit the earth will be the ones who are indebted to the rich who can not enter heaven, paraphrase 'own nothing and control everything' even if you break the biblical statute and muzzle the ox that treads the corn [taxes]
they produce nothing but second hand paper which is worth fuck all and their words are worth even less, one day they will have to dig their own potatoes or they wont have mash [is it the fault of the policy man or the fault of the baton we bought him?] [give a little man a big stick and he will beat you with it]
Just a thought no need to shout
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertieb View Post
Are you planning to have nothing at all made of metal?

Im going to bow out now as this is a little silly
I will leave the thread for others of the same mindset.
You were the one who suggested welding was not required ... by the 'grocer'.

Sorry that you see the thread as 'silly'.
It's actually a serious topic.
Money, and more specifically 'commerce' and the pursuit of capital accumulation, have got us in the crap we find ourselves in today, when in reality, there is zero justification of those concepts.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yozhik View Post

But any argument predicting no water, no electricity, no technology, no heat, etc is bunkum. ALL of those things exist today and can be given without the existence of money. All it takes is sweat equity, sense of community and for-giving.
But, why take a tedious job when the reward is exactly the same for a job that is less tedious?
And what about anybody that refuses to work?
Do they still get the apple?

Last edited by rumpelstilzchen; 19-09-2011 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 19-09-2011, 09:02 PM   #20
yozhik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumpelstilzchen View Post
Want.
Can't I have them?
Using money I can have as many apples as I want.


Well, obviously the amount of apples available to the community in the scenario you describe has greatly diminished since the abolition of money. What was not selfish at one time appears to be frowned upon now.
A step backwards methinks.
So a sense of community and an a lack of selfishness is a step backwards?
I don't comprehend; please explain.
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Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from shackles and restraint of government. It stands for social order based on the free grouping of individuals.
It [...] maintains that God, the State, and society are non-existent, that their promises are null and void, since they can be fulfilled only through man's subordination.


- Emma Goldman
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