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Old 19-03-2010, 02:07 PM   #21
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Someone has PMed me stating that Stewart is asking a valid question about the "Higher Orders" GS often mentions, and that person is curious about them too. I have Stewart on ignored but I'll address the issue:

Getting valid information out of ex-masons is like getting good information about academic programs in a university you want to attend from someone who has been expelled. You'll never get real answers.

Anyways, there are no "higher orders" and never have been. There are side orders, meaning bodies - some of them invitational - that are related to freemasonry but not open to everyone. Other degrees are exclusionary in that not every mason meets there requirements. For the York Rite Knights Templar degree, for example, one must be a christian or swear to defend the Christian faith.

But none of these orders have rank or authority over the regular, blue lodge. They may be exclusionary or invitation only side orders - which is what is referred to when talking about them, but they are not "higher orders" in the sense that they have no rank, authority, or pull over the fraternity.

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Old 19-03-2010, 02:11 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by lightindarkness View Post
Someone has PMed me stating that Stewart is asking a valid question about the "Higher Orders" GS often mentions, and that person is curious about them too. I have Stewart on ignored but I'll address the issue:

Getting valid information out of ex-masons is like getting good information about academic programs in a university you want to attend from someone who has been expelled. You'll never get real answers.

Anyways, there are no "higher orders" and never have been. There are side orders, meaning bodies - some of them invitational - that are related to freemasonry but not open to everyone. Other degrees are exclusionary in that not every mason meets there requirements. For the York Rite Knights Templar degree, for example, one must be a christian or swear to defend the Christian faith.

But none of these orders have rank or authority over the regular, blue lodge. They may be exclusionary or invitation only side orders - which is what is referred to when talking about them, but they are not "higher orders" in the sense that they have no rank, authority, or pull over the fraternity.

cue the "you're just a low level mason - you wouldnt know about the higher orders" zzZZZZZZ
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Old 19-03-2010, 02:55 PM   #23
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cue the "you're just a low level mason - you wouldnt know about the higher orders" zzZZZZZZ
And you who has never been a Mason knows it all ..... right
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Old 19-03-2010, 03:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by lightindarkness View Post
But freemasons are not sworn to secrecy. I can tell you anything you want to know about the rituals or fraternity except: the handshakes, signs, and grips.

"AH HA!" you will say, "THOSE are the secrets!" But they aren't, because they have been in print for almost 300 years. They are private, in that I won't tell you about them but I don't care if you go find them or if you know them yourself. The point of keeping those things private is not that they hold any value or tell us anything special, but as a demonstration that I am a man of my word.

There are no "highest degrees" in freemasonry, the concept of some sort of hierarchy by degrees in the fraternity is a completely made up concept by conspiracy theorists. The only hierarchy is that of elected offices - in the states, the "highest ranking mason" is still a third degree mason while serving as Grand Master. After his term is up, he goes back to being just a regular mason and someone else serves for a year.

Good post...but they can read this anywhere. That's why I've said to the non Masons asking questions. Go to a local lodge in there town..check out the Masonic info night. Usually at my lodge its confers on the 1st degree so the guest would learn about some of the first degree. They would be able to ask Masons there questions. actually before I was raised to master I attended the info night I was a fellow craft Mason at the time and someone asked the nights speaker a past master about the Washington dc streets map layout and other questions. I just looked at the pm cause I was thinking to myself wow someone asked this? But he was a fairly old man the other Masons in attendance answered for him I guess he wasn't to aware of this! I then asked about women in F&AM it was during the week of the discovery channels Freemasonry documentary aired which showed a woman master mason. We spoke of the topics after the presentation of the degree. Both Masons and non laughed about other discovery channels docs. Funny both Mason and non Mason laughing on how they misinform people hmmm!

I say that a non Mason would leave informed and with out a doubt thirsty for more info!
Instead of being lazy online and learning false info!
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Old 19-03-2010, 03:32 PM   #25
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If the secret is that there is no secret, then why are they sworn to secrecy? Why would the highest degrees not speak openly about it?
Why do se insist there are no secrets yet they are reading books called "The Biggest Secret" and trolling the authors forum?
What good is a no-secret secret if the no-secret secret is not a secret?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88058
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Old 19-03-2010, 03:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by lightindarkness View Post
Someone has PMed me stating that Stewart is asking a valid question about the "Higher Orders" GS often mentions, and that person is curious about them too. I have Stewart on ignored but I'll address the issue:
Thank you.

Quote:
Anyways, there are no "higher orders" and never have been




Posted by Grandsecretary
Quote:
These "Higher Orders" are the purely symbolic equivalent of our Holy Order and they pre-date the formation of The Grand Lodge of London (now known as the United Grand Lodge of England), 1717.

I feel sure that kadosh will have no problem in confirming this statement
Post 8 http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...=higher+orders And post 24
Quote:
The answer to the question is "Yes" the "Higher Orders" and kadosh has confirmed this for you, on a previous occasion.

He is a very experienced and senior member of The United Grand Lodge of England and both he, and I are speaking from our experience and our knowledge.

Now you either do not know, or you are seeking to mislead the reader. Either way it does not matter, because the reader is intelligent enough to know who to believe.
And from Kadosh post 34
Quote:
There is some fundamental misunderstanding being applied here (through lack of internal Masonic knowledge unfortunately) that is quite obvious from reading some of the replies. The 'Higher Orders' as has been stated here are not part of any other Masonic degree system (in England or Scotland) and are therefore not part of Craft Masonry or Ancient Accepted (Scottish) Rite. No connection with either system in England or Scotland. The most basic requirement is still to be a Master Mason. However, the 'HO' (not degrees) are completely independent and separately controlled. In conclusion do not expect to get a direct answer from UGLE/GQS, AAR/Duke Street, or the Chancellory of the other Orders/St. James's on this particular and private matter. Also I am unable to be more specific. I hope this now clarifies the matter. Pax.

Hence lightindarkness I can now reconcile your statement. Kadoshs explanation makes perfect sense.


Also see Steve Pennys comments at http://bluecob.com/trestleboard/view...&t=443&start=0
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Old 19-03-2010, 04:05 PM   #27
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And you who has never been a Mason knows it all ..... right
There is no way to tell whos a brother and who's not. Unless we show our dues cards.
Personally I don't have my scanner working but oh well.
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Old 19-03-2010, 07:46 PM   #28
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Geminigirl,

These questions demand a knowledge of High Freemasonry to answer; I could answer them in detail, but do not want to post my own research in doing so, as that would be required. So, in summary, I'll answer them in short sentences, and leave you to do your own work on the matter if you are sufficiently interested.

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Originally Posted by geminigirl View Post
Question - So is Freemasonry's biggest secret the Goddess, Sacred Feminine etc etc?
That's part of it, the root; in High Masonry, above 33rd degree, in the Red lodges.

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Originally Posted by geminigirl
Or it it reptilian masters of the universe?
No; though they go by the Old Testament mainly, which when decoded mythologically links back to Sumeria, wherein abundantly we find the recurring Draconian (or as they're called these days, 'Reptilian') motif.

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Originally Posted by geminigirl
If it's a secret then why do so many ex-Freemasons claim it to be? Or are they all dis informers?
Liars, yes, but mostly from ignorance; in public and on internet forums when a Mason tells a lie about Masonry, it is usually from his (or sometimes her) perspective the 'truth', as they do not know otherwise. Others lie because they can get away with it, just. You will not find any person who is a High Mason posting on an internet forum such as this, or appearing and being acknowledged as a Freemason in public.

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Originally Posted by geminigirl
Also why are the symbols and rituals so similar between Masonry and Goddess religions?
Because at the fundamental root or core of High Masonry one (Freemasonry) is derived from the other (the Goddess religion, or the 'Old Religion' as it was).

It is very complex, but to begin to understand the why and how this is so, start here -

Ma'at



Ma'at is the ancient concept, originating in Egypt, of truth, balance, order, law, honour, morality, righteousness and justice. Personified as a goddess (or the Goddess, as all were essentially one), she regulated the stars, the seasons, and the actions of both mortals and the deities, who set the order of the universe from chaos at the moment of creation (ordo ab chao, order out of chaos).

Today, in High Masonry, the term ma'at also means "chosen-ness", and via their esoteric system based mainly on the Old Testament, a High Mason who has ma'at is a Chosen of God, ie. he has become a sort of Jew.

The relation between this sort of Freemasonry at the high degrees and Judaism, Qabalah and all the rest may be discernible to you with further research and the application of your intelligence. I've said all I'm going to.
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Old 19-03-2010, 08:02 PM   #29
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Zero 1

Interesting thoughts.

As an aside what do you make of my avatar which reads MaatanchRe?
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Old 19-03-2010, 08:25 PM   #30
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Zero 1

Interesting thoughts.
Thank you, Stewart.

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Originally Posted by stewart edwards
As an aside what do you make of my avatar which reads MaatanchRe?
Ah yes, your avatar, nice picture; the three symbols Ma'at - Ankh - Re (or Ra)

Ma'at carries the ankh, as in the picture of her in post #28.

The Ankh -



again -



With the Goddess -



Quote:
The ankh (U+2625 ☥, 'key of life', 'the key of the Nile', 'crux ansata') was the Egyptian hieroglyphic character that read "eternal life", a triliteral sign for the consonants ˁ-n-ḫ. Egyptian gods are often portrayed carrying it by its loop, or bearing one in each hand, arms crossed over their chest.
and finally, Re (or Ra) -



Quote:
Re (Ra) was the Egyptian sun god who was also often referred to as Re-Horakhty, meaning Re (is) Horus of the Horizon, referring to the god's character. The early Egyptians believed that he created the world, and the rising sun was, for them, the symbol of creation. The daily cycle, as the sun rose, then set only to rise again the next morning, symbolized renewal and so Re was seen as the paramount force of creation and master of life. His closest ally is Ma'at, the embodiment of order and truth.
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Old 19-03-2010, 08:41 PM   #31
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Thank you, Stewart.
No probs, it was an interesting post. I would value reading your full thoughts on these issues zero1, if you ever felt able to share.

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Ah yes, your avatar, nice picture; the three symbols Ma'at - Ankh - Re (or Ra)
Came to me in the Bodleian (Oxford University Library) around the time of my fortieth birthday. I was studing Egyptology, and came across "Living in Truth" as used by Akhenaten, and I liked it. And I used it for a very brief period on masonic forums before going back to the library and checking out maatanchre which just came to me. As far as I could ascertain it has never been used by a pharaoh so in addition to "feeling right" it seemed more appropriate. The truth of life from the source.

It reflects well my attitude to life. Thats what middle aged barmyness does to you zero1.


Added: If anyone knows of maatanchre being used in the past please tell me.
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Old 19-03-2010, 09:33 PM   #32
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Thanks zero1. Your responses are always the least condescending to a newbie on this spiritual path. I appreciate all the responses to my OP , really opens my mind to the different schools of thought.

So zero1, I took your advice and did the research on your lead. I am probably going to be blasted for this, probably from the actual, assumed or imagined highest degree of masons that post on these forums, but here goes...

My prelimanary deduction (from skimmed research), is that - Freemasonry is Maat. For lack of time I won't go into the detail of why I've come to this conclusion as I think the information is readily available.

That's it until further contradictory research proves otherwise...

Thanks
GG
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Old 19-03-2010, 11:36 PM   #33
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No probs, it was an interesting post. I would value reading your full thoughts on these issues zero1, if you ever felt able to share.
Perhaps, I try to be open and helpful where possible, but am always cautious not to say too much, or go too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stewart edwards
Came to me in the Bodleian (Oxford University Library) around the time of my fortieth birthday. I was studing Egyptology, and came across "Living in Truth" as used by Akhenaten, and I liked it. And I used it for a very brief period on masonic forums before going back to the library and checking out maatanchre which just came to me. As far as I could ascertain it has never been used by a pharaoh so in addition to "feeling right" it seemed more appropriate. The truth of life from the source.
Indeed. I recognized the three words from your skillful portmanteau, it's a very useful way to memorize things, not least the three most important constants of Egyptian mythology & religion.

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It reflects well my attitude to life. Thats what middle aged barmyness does to you zero1.
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Old 19-03-2010, 11:42 PM   #34
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The Masons that reside in the upper echelons of the Pyramid are the ones you have to worry about (as well as a few others in the lower degrees who fancy little children RE: Thomas Hamilton for example).

Quote:
"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages. "
Albert Pike-Morals and Dogma

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Old 19-03-2010, 11:55 PM   #35
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Thanks zero1. Your responses are always the least condescending to a newbie on this spiritual path. I appreciate all the responses to my OP, really opens my mind to the different schools of thought.
You're welcome; one thing I've learnt in the realm of research & spirituality is ask the right questions and the answers will come, unbidden, if you are paying attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geminigirl
So zero1, I took your advice and did the research on your lead. I am probably going to be blasted for this, probably from the actual, assumed or imagined highest degree of masons that post on these forums, but here goes...

My preliminary deduction (from skimmed research), is that - Freemasonry is Ma'at. For lack of time I won't go into the detail of why I've come to this conclusion as I think the information is readily available.
Well that was quick!

Thorough research takes time, though; don't be afraid to learn by 'degrees', as they say , that is; gradually over time. No-one knows it all at the start.

The key is often in language; for example, the word 'Freemason' conjoins the archaic and feudal words "Freeman" and "Mason"; that's exoteric. But it also means Ma-son, as in son-of-the-Mother, the Mother in question being the Goddess; and the specific goddess being ma'at (the meaning of the term is described in post #28) personified as Ma'at (pictured in same post).

Hence the Freemasons are the Sons of Ma'at, or Sons of righteousness, law, morality, order etc. Understand? It's okay if it's hard at first; once you wrap your head around it, the only way is up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geminigirl
That's it until further contradictory research proves otherwise...

Thanks
GG
Gesundheit.

Remember, this (what I'm talking about) is High Mason stuff; any so-called 'evidence' from any lesser source (say a Blue Lodger of 33 degrees or less) can be discounted without too much fuss, I have found, as they simply do not know ('lying from ignorance' is common amongst them; it's the ones that lie from malice that are a concern, but luckily they are few and far between).

For my part, I've posted as much as I can, it doesn't matter to me, but you can believe me or don't believe me, it's up to you.

best,

Z1
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Old 20-03-2010, 07:06 AM   #36
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My prelimanary deduction (from skimmed research), is that - Freemasonry is Maat.
Ah, interesting geminigirl. I dont know if it will help but to oversimplify things there are two ways to look at what Freemasonry is in our world today:-

1. A group of people who get together and form an organisation. You become a freemason when they let you in to their organisation. Initiation means joining.

2. One of the modern day guardians of the ancient mysteries. To become a freemason it all starts in your heart and all that a lodge does is recognise and offer confirmation that you are a freemason, and helps you on your way by initiating you to help you take your future steps, guiding and supporting you on your travels through life towards knowing yourself.

You will find craft lodges named after Ancient Egytpian Dieties and you will find freemasons who would no doubt agree with you geminigirl. And you will find others who will laugh at you and ridicule you for even suggesting it. (just like the Higher Order issue where some deny their existance while others confirm them, and how Pike is viewed by different masons or how long it takes to 32nd degree - near impossible to a weekend etc - the masonic world is full of such "differences")

Geminigirl I am guessing here but you may be beginning to "feel" energies through time. Something that many will ridicule you for. But equally if you can you will find that masons who do understand will cross paths with you. And they are the, generally speaking at least in my experience, the nicest, most helpful, truthful, and tolerant masons around. They often get ridiculed by fellow masons who really should know better.

If you can feel energies geminigirl - relax - dont try to force it (it just doesnt work that way). Enjoy it!
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Old 20-03-2010, 08:25 AM   #37
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Thought that I should point out for clarity and so as not to mislead, while I have used the Bodleian extensively for private study of Egyptology and to research issues such as astrobiology for my books I have never been a student at Oxford University.

The university resources, from the Ashmolean, the Bodleian and other university libraries, their old ufo student society and even their karate club have helped me enormously and I am very grateful to the University. It has, unknowing to it (well I say unknown it now knows for I wrote to them to tell them and to thank them for being available to the public) helped me bumble and stumble my way to where I am today.
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Old 20-03-2010, 11:03 AM   #38
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You will find craft lodges named after Ancient Egytpian Dieties and you will find freemasons who would no doubt agree with you geminigirl. And you will find others who will laugh at you and ridicule you for even suggesting it. (just like the Higher Order issue where some deny their existance while others confirm them, and how Pike is viewed by different masons or how long it takes to 32nd degree - near impossible to a weekend etc - the masonic world is full of such "differences")

Geminigirl I am guessing here but you may be beginning to "feel" energies through time. Something that many will ridicule you for. But equally if you can you will find that masons who do understand will cross paths with you. And they are the, generally speaking at least in my experience, the nicest, most helpful, truthful, and tolerant masons around. They often get ridiculed by fellow masons who really should know better.

If you can feel energies geminigirl - relax - dont try to force it (it just doesnt work that way). Enjoy it!
Stewart thanks for your response.Very interesting comment on the energies. An interesting fact if you can help me on this one. (Suspend disbelief here sceptics, some BS sounding fluff coming up).

When I was younger, I started questioning alot spiritually - I started seeing purple windows when my eyes were closed. I was a child, so definately not on drugs nor eating mouldy bread - but it's an oddity to me that this memory stands out to the degree it does. A few years later I accompanied a friend to a Christian spiritual healer, out of the blue, he mentioned that my guardian was Isis. He said nothing more. At that time I knew nothing of Egyptian Goddesses or the like.
Odd how that memory that started me on this journey - leads me almost full circle years later. I still see purple windows but not as often.

I don't know about feeling energies as I'm not sure what it it supposed to "feel" like. I do however know that I am guided by my feelings VERY strongly. Whether it's when I'm reading, talking to someone, listening to someone, watching something etc etc. Much like an observer watching my feelings in any interaction not always fully involved. Does this make sense ?
That's however a whole topic on it's own.

So to avoid sounding like I'm seeking psychoanalysis, if you or anyone else can shed light on the purple windows - would love to hear it. You may PM me.

I digress on the OP. Back to the topic - I don't really care if Freemasons agree or don't . If I was male, I would probably have joined a lodge to ask these questions. I am just looking for answers to validate the research and the "feelings" if you will. Kind of like reading a famous persons biography and then wanting to know from the actual person if the information is true. With so many claiming that their version is the truth - it can get a bit much so all I can go on, as I've said a few times - is what feels the most right to me.

From my OP - the answers has come and for that I am grateful.

One thing is certain though and undeniable to me- from all the research and feelings - there is no disputing the creator God.

Thanks again.

In love and light and all things fluffy
GG
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Old 20-03-2010, 11:42 AM   #39
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Stewart thanks for your response.Very interesting comment on the energies. An interesting fact if you can help me on this one. (Suspend disbelief here sceptics, some BS sounding fluff coming up).
I will try.

Quote:
Odd how that memory that started me on this journey - leads me almost full circle years later.
There are several esoteric issues that springout from this geminigirl. The circles of life, initiation, life lessons and so on. You may find more in your life if you look closely.

Quote:
I don't know about feeling energies as I'm not sure what it it supposed to "feel" like. I do however know that I am guided by my feelings VERY strongly.
You may find it useful to learn to differentiate your feelings eg heart v head, conscience v desire etc. At its most basic think about a time you wanted to ask someone out on a date. Part of you would want to go for it but part of you may have feared the possibility of rejection. That is a good starting point for exploration in this field.

Quote:
Much like an observer watching my feelings in any interaction not always fully involved. Does this make sense ?
Esoteric texts do talk about such things, you may find some of the books on hermetics eg if memory serves me correctly Bardons "Initiation into Hermetics" an interesting read in this regard. I also think that David Icke has written about how "the elite" can become distant in this manner as they rise through the ranks (apologies if I am misremembering). And I am sure that psychiatrists have several clinical diagnoses of mental illness that would cover such things. You may also find "Spirit Releasement Therapy" by Baldwin interesting (it was recommended to me by a mason with deep esoteric understanding on a masonic forum after I had a bad experience in a lodge environment).

Quote:
So to avoid sounding like I'm seeking psychoanalysis, if you or anyone else can shed light on the purple windows - would love to hear it. You may PM me.
Dont have a clue.

Quote:
I digress on the OP. Back to the topic - I don't really care if Freemasons agree or don't . If I was male, I would probably have joined a lodge to ask these questions.
You may find comasonry to be valuable. Within the ranks are many female freemasons and a fair bit of esoteric knowledge. Dont believe masons when they tell you that only men can be masons. Just quote UGLE back to them http://www.hfaf.org/ugle.htm (a female only masonic fraternity).

Quote:
I am just looking for answers to validate the research and the "feelings" if you will.
Dont ruush it, life will give you what you need, often in the most unexpected of places. We all need time to assimilate, get your mind around things, build. Books et all will tell you what people have found out before, but everything you need is to be found within the very fabric of your daily life. The trick is gaining the eyes to see. And that comes from learning to follow your heart. At least in my own personal experience.

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One thing is certain though and undeniable to me- from all the research and feelings - there is no disputing the creator God.
Indeed.


Geminigirl you may find it useful to watch my youtube videos (link in my signature).
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Last edited by stewart edwards; 20-03-2010 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 20-03-2010, 12:37 PM   #40
rr_x
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There is no secret. Most 'mystical' secret societies have operated on that premise as a way to lure in the gullible.

'O foolish man what cannot ye be made to believe?' - Adam Weishaupt
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