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Old 10-02-2018, 11:53 AM   #21
aura
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Money to fund a minimum universal income should obviously come from a redistribution of wealth (think 1%). In this day and age, it's becoming increasingly unacceptable to make people work for basic food and shelter. In a brighter future, people should not be worked to their grave but most would work for themselves in a cooperation system, labour in the essential industries would be highly valued and remunerated and people would have the choice of how how many hours they want to put in (now they mostly don't because bills). That would be just the beginning of eliminating slavery and all the evil associated with it.
Such appeals for a "minimum universal income" or more commonly termed, a "basic income" are not practical.

You can watch a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rL6gJkdlNU) with the main promoter of these concepts and even he fails to justify his 20+ years advocacy.

1. How is the income going to come from the 1% when that same source for taxes are largely from those who keep their money hidden in trusts and tax havens. If you was to force this charge upon the 1% they would simply change their domicile and moved to a new country.

2. How is the rate of payment to be calculated? (a fixed income for all people, what about those living in more costly areas would they receive more?)

3. Is a "basic income" applicable to all people, even to those who don't need it? How about those already employed.

4. How would a "basic income" affect someone already receiving welfare, to be paid on top compared with a person employed? There is no difference than the support people already receive has provided for by the state. (What is the difference, if you dispute this?)

5. If everyone was to be given free money, (including those who do not need it) all industries would be forced to increase their prices merely to protect themselves from any losses when the same supplies had already been acquired before any changes or "basic income" was introduced.

6. Watch the increase in attempted immigration, all seeking a free fixed income.

None of these changes have any influence over the present monetary system. Its merely out-crying symptoms caused by the same system. The people are still going to be dispossessed, while such appeals are emotional, not rational.

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“You are in the hands and at the mercy of our great financial system. You do not understand why you are foreclosed and thrown out, and you change your politics, voting for some other party than the last one you voted for, but you do not get your home back, the juggernaut of American finance rolls along, crushing out the breath, blood and bones of its victims without cessation.” – Charles H. Robinson, "The Destruction of Poverty" (1898), p. 146
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Old 10-02-2018, 09:19 PM   #22
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how are you going to 'redistribute wealth' when the top 1% keep their wealth offshore and out of the reach of the taxman?
I don't say it's straightforward and basically the people would have to persuade the lawmakers. But even some of the richest people in the world realize how the slavery system is screwed and increasingly unsustainable. How a maximum cap on income would work, we basically regulate it in all countries that adhere and stop trading with countries that don't. Of course some might choose to engage in illegal activities but as you said, with the development of the AI surveillance, it's going to get increasingly difficult to cheat the system. Unless we move to crypto currencies that are notoriously hard to track. Anyway, that's just an idea, maybe utopian, maybe not, but it wouldn't hurt if more people pondered on it.

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Old 10-02-2018, 09:31 PM   #23
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Such appeals for a "minimum universal income" or more commonly termed, a "basic income" are not practical.

You can watch a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rL6gJkdlNU) with the main promoter of these concepts and even he fails to justify his 20+ years advocacy.

1. How is the income going to come from the 1% when that same source for taxes are largely from those who keep their money hidden in trusts and tax havens. If you was to force this charge upon the 1% they would simply change their domicile and moved to a new country.

2. How is the rate of payment to be calculated? (a fixed income for all people, what about those living in more costly areas would they receive more?)

3. Is a "basic income" applicable to all people, even to those who don't need it? How about those already employed.

4. How would a "basic income" affect someone already receiving welfare, to be paid on top compared with a person employed? There is no difference than the support people already receive has provided for by the state. (What is the difference, if you dispute this?)

5. If everyone was to be given free money, (including those who do not need it) all industries would be forced to increase their prices merely to protect themselves from any losses when the same supplies had already been acquired before any changes or "basic income" was introduced.

6. Watch the increase in attempted immigration, all seeking a free fixed income.

None of these changes have any influence over the present monetary system. Its merely out-crying symptoms caused by the same system. The people are still going to be dispossessed, while such appeals are emotional, not rational.
1. See previous post.
2. Should be fixed (hell planet Earth isn't perfectly fair and never will be).
3, 4. Should be for everyone regardless if they need it or not and should replace all other social assistance.
5. Not necessarily, see no 1 and the fourth industrial revolution.
6. See no 1, it would better work if most developed countries adhered to this and immigration shouldn't be a factor.
7. I don't watch videos, they bore me.
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Old 11-02-2018, 12:24 AM   #24
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I don't say it's straightforward and basically the people would have to persuade the lawmakers. But even some of the richest people in the world realize how the slavery system is screwed and increasingly unsustainable. How a maximum cap on income would work, we basically regulate it in all countries that adhere and stop trading with countries that don't. Of course some might choose to engage in illegal activities but as you said, with the development of the AI surveillance, it's going to get increasingly difficult to cheat the system. Unless we move to crypto currencies that are notoriously hard to track. Anyway, that's just an idea, maybe utopian, maybe not, but it wouldn't hurt if more people pondered on it.
the problem is that the top 0.01% who have hoarded all the wealth are the people who WANT to impose the SMART grid society

their hoarding of wealth and manufactured inequality is all part of their plan

you are just begging them to move their plan on quicker that's all
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Old 11-02-2018, 06:23 PM   #25
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I don't think you can call it money unless you've got something tangible in your hand. Digits make me nervous.
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Old 15-02-2018, 01:02 AM   #26
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I don't say it's straightforward and basically the people would have to persuade the lawmakers.
Its not about whether a law should be created or changed, its an economic issue. The money to sustain such a concept still has to come from somewhere, merely increasing taxes upon the "1%" wouldn't work, take for example the population of the United Kingdom, about 70 million, you would have to tax more than the "1%" to fund this endeavor. Its clearly unsustainable, then with the option to change the domicile to another country, whose next to be taxed?

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But even some of the richest people in the world realize how the slavery system is screwed and increasingly unsustainable.
The increased costliness is caused from the present monetary system which gives the false allure that money itself is "worthless" losing value. (the money is not losing value, you're just forced to pay more.) Its not an association with the use of money itself though.

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“We complain of the national debt, because the interest must be annually paid by taxes.” – George Craufurd, "The Doctrine of Equivalents; or An Explanation of the Nature, Value and Power of Money" (1803), p. 243
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How a maximum cap on income would work, we basically regulate it in all countries that adhere and stop trading with countries that don't.
This "maximum cap on income" contradicts your claims that everyone should receive a "fixed free income."

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Anyway, that's just an idea, maybe utopian, maybe not, but it wouldn't hurt if more people pondered on it.
Ask yourself why would people now be seeking a "basic income," an additional income to support themselves—rather than under the living conditions 20+ years ago, why now?

Its should be obvious such appeals for a redistribution of wealth is a symptom; superseded by the monetary system in its end life cycle which forces all industries to artificially increase prices while cutting production costs; having outsourced to other cheaper labor/countries, merely itself attempting to survive. Both individual and industry equally succumb to the effects of banking (public or private, neither does it matter.)
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Old 25-06-2018, 06:24 PM   #27
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It's a sad game called 'economic growth'.

Actually money in society is like blood in the human body : keep it from flowing and then come illness and death. Money becomes a plague when piled up in a safe or a bank account. It's an appropriation tool once created to rob men of anything valuable they might ever find or produce in the future.

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Old 26-06-2018, 01:23 AM   #28
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It's a sad game called 'economic growth'.

Actually money in society is like blood in the human body : keep it from flowing and then come illness and death. Money becomes a plague when piled up in a safe or a bank account. It's an appropriation tool once created to rob men of anything valuable they might ever find or produce in the future.
Morseo than you think. Interesting fact : did you know the human flu virus can survive no longer than 24 hours on most inanimate surfaces. It can, however, survive for 17 days on a bank note. All money is infected, harbouring microbes from every part of the human body to the tune of 26,000 separate bacterial colonies, and then some, with an average circulation of 10-15 years, the average fiver changes hands 258 times while the average £20 note 2,328 times. There are more bacteria on a £1 coin than a toilet seat. A recent U.S. survey determined that 94% of all $1 dollar bills are infected with disease causing microbes. Only 1 in 5 Europeans wash their hands after handling money. This will probably be the final coup de gras of the cashless society mongers. Money. Is. Dirty.

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Old 26-06-2018, 07:53 AM   #29
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Morseo than you think. Interesting fact : did you know the human flu virus can survive no longer than 24 hours on most inanimate surfaces. It can, however, survive for 17 days on a bank note. All money is infected, harbouring microbes from every part of the human body to the tune of 26,000 separate bacterial colonies, and then some, with an average circulation of 10-15 years, the average fiver changes hands 258 times while the average £20 note 2,328 times. There are more bacteria on a £1 coin than a toilet seat. A recent U.S. survey determined that 94% of all $1 dollar bills are infected with disease causing microbes. Only 1 in 5 Europeans wash their hands after handling money. This will probably be the final coup de gras of the cashless society mongers. Money. Is. Dirty.
Have you got a link for that CT?
Perhaps we should all revert to silver coins then, which are naturally anti bacterial and also contain intrinsic value?

I'm quite sure that plastic money harbours more bacteria than hemp tbh
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Old 11-11-2018, 11:38 PM   #30
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Money has indeed lost way more than its all value in almost the all West and I think it’s a good thing, because anything valuable is a source of conflicts and criminality. The rich no longer rely on coins or banknotes but on regular income from stock exchange, business or any kind of fees. Only demented survivalists pile up gold in safes thinking it might one day save their ass.

The day everything our society needs to work will have been digitized, synthesized or made out of thin air, then there will be nothing more ‘valuable’ left around but life, mind and good will, which has never been noticed even in the animal world.

Will men be finally able to achieve it ?
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