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Old 26-01-2013, 11:55 PM   #61
alisa2
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So, back to the point at hand:~ the Tony Parsons' quote may be an out of context one, because that quote was in reference to what he called his initial awakening from which he explains was then lost and seeking took over and he clearly then goes on to explain the 'I' came back.
I don't recall him saying that the 'I' came back, and if so, I'd like to know which I he is referring to. There are two I's. The first I is the I of pure consciousness, and the other I is the I of the ego. Real I is pure consciousness. It has no relation to the Ego I at all. So which of TP's I's returned?

“The ego (I) is the source of thought" Ramana Maharshi


Temporary disappearance of the ego I:


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Old 27-01-2013, 12:09 AM   #62
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Radical Awakening:

"At the age of sixteen, Stephen Jourdain experienced a radical awakening while contemplating (in the manner of a Zen koan) the famous Descartes statement "I think, therefore I am." As a result of this fundamental change in perception--and at that very moment--the essential basis of Jourdain's identity collapsed once and for all, as he realized the truth of what all of us essentially are: the fundamental "I" principle, or Consciousness."
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Old 27-01-2013, 01:31 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by alisa2 View Post
I don't recall him saying that the 'I' came back, and if so, I'd like to know which I he is referring to. There are two I's. The first I is the I of pure consciousness, and the other I is the I of the ego. Real I is pure consciousness. It has no relation to the Ego I at all. So which of TP's I's returned?
Yeah he mentions it in many interviews and meetings, so it's a surprise that it's missed.

In particular, it's around the six minute mark onwards in the below interview.

With regard you wanting to know which 'I' he is referring to within this context, the best thing is for Tony to answer for himself and his phone number is on his website.

All I can say from the perspective here is that it seemed to happen similarly with the unfolding here for 'me'.

When you say/type 'real I' etc., to be honest it's both real and not real at exactly the same time y'know without attempting to put any higher meaning or importance to it.

In~joy the clip and as stated; it's mentioned in many vids and not just Tony's apparent ones.

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Old 27-01-2013, 08:59 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by alisa2 View Post
enlightenment is the dissolution of the I... the death of the I.
as already posted on page 3, here's jeff foster on this matter, very clear, very plastic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-B6XE5x9Eg

extract: "as long as you're fighting an ego, there appears to be an ego"

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Old 27-01-2013, 09:18 AM   #65
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extract: "as long as you're fighting an ego, there appears to be an ego"
Maybe there's something else the case here...

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exist."

Charles Baudelaire

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Old 27-01-2013, 09:29 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by lighthouse View Post
Maybe there's something else the case here...

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exist."

Charles Baudelaire

dunno... can you tell me where the ego exactly is when you're not thinking of it, thus not objectifiying it? who's the devil by the way? next object with apparent solidity, as long you believe in it. now, without going into struggle with the objects you've created, something else which can't be called anything prevails all the way...

Quote:
Huike said to Bodhidharma, “My mind is anxious. Please pacify it.”
Bodhidharma replied, “Bring me your mind, and I will pacify it.”
Huike said, “Although I’ve sought it, I cannot find it.”
“There,” Bodhidharma replied, “I have pacified your mind.”
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Old 27-01-2013, 11:37 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by lighthouse View Post
Oh, someone is back...

Anyways...
Right now doesn't feel like making words and noise about the ineffable...
Hey lighthouse,

It's been a while...

Hope you had a great festive seasonal holiday.

All the best,

opas23.
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Old 27-01-2013, 01:16 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by alisa2 View Post
I don't recall him saying that the 'I' came back, and if so, I'd like to know which I he is referring to. There are two I's. The first I is the I of pure consciousness, and the other I is the I of the ego. Real I is pure consciousness. It has no relation to the Ego I at all. So which of TP's I's returned?

“The ego (I) is the source of thought" Ramana Maharshi


Temporary disappearance of the ego I:

Non Duality 1 - YouTube
......
Young Jourdain needed feeding up along with some fresh air and sunshine.
16 doesn't have profound revelations it has adolescent crises.

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Old 27-01-2013, 02:02 PM   #69
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dunno... can you tell me where the ego exactly is when you're not thinking of it, thus not objectifiying it?
Since when is anybody thinking?
I thought that thoughts are just arising.
I cannot think because I don't exist.
So...

Where were we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hierophant View Post
who's the devil by the way?

next object with apparent solidity, as long you believe in it. now, without going into struggle with the objects you've created, something else which can't be called anything prevails all the way...
I don't exist, therefore I can't create anything.
But the devil could do something like that...

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Originally Posted by opas23 View Post
All the best,

opas23.
Have a cup of...

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Old 27-01-2013, 04:23 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by lighthouse View Post
Since when is anybody thinking?
I thought that thoughts are just arising.
I cannot think because I don't exist.
So...

Where were we?



I don't exist, therefore I can't create anything.
But the devil could do something like that...



Have a cup of...

you're right! if one's gonna stick very close to non-dual language, one's gotta be putting it strictly that way. but i didn't have the intention of going into argument over language, and it certainly won't do anything but splitting the whole thing up into more polarities

we're not holding up our highest subjective values and intimate knowledge here anyway, do we? even if it were so, do you really believe that sitting around telling yourself you don't exist would change the fact of your existence? as opas said, you are and you are not at the same time...

another dimension may be seen when you apply this notion to a certain teaching many people here don't seem to like. let's say, when you follow what tony parsons is saying for example, you might think being noone is absolutely required for liberation to happen, and therefore you desperately try to become no one. but in fact with this in mind you perpetuate the whole separation game of a someone on a path to somewhere... check the jeff foster clips i've posted! he's going much deeper into it as i could ever do in english

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Old 27-01-2013, 08:59 PM   #71
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Opas said
Quote:
When you say/type 'real I' etc., to be honest it's both real and not real at exactly the same time y'know without attempting to put any higher meaning or importance to it.
By Real 'I' I mean essence.

Excerpt from Gurdjieff- A Beginners Guide by Gil Friedman


"According to the Work, the main requirement for self observation is to separate into two people: the observed and the observer. If we cannot make this separation, we will find it impossible to observe ourselves because we think there is nothing to observe. So I must separate myself from Friedman, and you must separate yourself from Johnson or Jones or whatever your name is. Therefore, I watch Friedman go through his little acts and foibles. My goal is at first not to change Friedman, but just to observe how he behaves. Friedman is the personality I have accumulated, consisting of layers of overcoats, an analogy that Ouspensky used, that I have put on myself that hide my Real 'I'. So I want to get to know how Friedman behaves in various situations. If I make no separation between Friedman and the real me, it is impossible to observe him. Only by realizing Friedman is not the real me can I even start to make attempts to observe Friedman."

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Old 27-01-2013, 09:20 PM   #72
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Is someone around you being negative? Walk away... You have a right not to be negative.

Gil Friedman, con't

We Have a Right Not to be Negative. Pg. 140

According to the work, if nothing could ever turn us into a negative state, we would be fully conscious beings. The Work teaches, however, that it is extremely easy to fall into a negative state. Gurdjieff said that negative emotions are what the world runs on. From the Work's perspective, it is very easy to fall into a negative state and then justify it under the particular set of circumstances that allowed us to become negative. The Work says we have a right not to be negative." Notice that the Work doesn't say, "We have no right to be negative." Rather, it gives us the right not to be negative. This is a very valuable right that few people use."
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Old 27-01-2013, 10:30 PM   #73
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Freedom is a wonder~full thing!

No practice or requirement is needed or used for life to be.

And being free, practice and requirement can be used within that liberation to learn to play the banjo, for example, or cook an omelette in a different way perhaps.

So being unlimited, life is inclusive of limitation, otherwise it wouldn't be unlimited.

I don't have to live a certain way, or uphold a particular meditation or practice, because life will and does unfold regardless and despite any approaching effort of a me trying to not do me~ing.

I can live a certain way with regard the mechanics and laws of driving a car or making sure the vehicle is on the correct side of the road.

But when it comes to me trying to be a better or enlightened me or 'real I' etc., well...that just all fell away with the very simple realisation that the whole idea seemed to be very very effective at making me not get {soon enough for the me** what me thought me wanted! lol

Funnily enough though, all the ideas me had about what me could be when me did eventually get rid of me and become more than the me, go way beyond that thought....because me collapsed into a wholeness me could never contain.

The beauty of this wholeness/freedom is that it can still be called me/I or anything else for that matter! lol

So yes, 'real I' could be used but it makes no difference what it's called because it's free of that.

That's me all over.
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Old 28-01-2013, 02:17 PM   #74
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Default If Not Now....When?

When I've let go.
When I've killed my ego.
When I'm present.
When I'm in the now.
When there is no desire.
When I have accepted life.
When I'm ready.
When I understand.
When I'm essence.
When I'm the real I.
When I am not I.
When I'm not negative.
When grace descends.
When I'm love.
When I find my passion.
When I find my guru.
When I am.
When I am not.
When I am universal mind.
When I am not my mind.
When I have meditated enough.
When I'm with god.
When I am god.
When I am in nature.
When I activate my chakras.
When I know.
When everyone knows.
When there's no war.
When the elites are gone.
When the lizards jump planet.
When the pleiadians come.
When spirit decides.

Does anyone care to ad to the shopping list?
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Old 28-01-2013, 02:42 PM   #75
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Enlightenment, is just realising all there is. We are all one. When you remember this, you will be "enlightened".

How do we get closer to remembering all there is? By practising love.
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Old 28-01-2013, 06:43 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opas23 View Post
It seems that there are certain individuals
lord......



Quote:
Originally Posted by equinoxboy View Post
They this, they that, they the other.

There is no Them and Us
exactly



Quote:
Originally Posted by alisa2 View Post
Opas said

By Real 'I' I mean essence.
Excerpt from Gurdjieff- A Beginners Guide by Gil Friedman


"According to the Work, the main requirement for self observation is to separate into two people: the observed and the observer. If we cannot make this separation, we will find it impossible to observe ourselves because we think there is nothing to observe. So I must separate myself from Friedman, and you must separate yourself from Johnson or Jones or whatever your name is. Therefore, I watch Friedman go through his little acts and foibles. My goal is at first not to change Friedman, but just to observe how he behaves. Friedman is the personality I have accumulated, consisting of layers of overcoats, an analogy that Ouspensky used, that I have put on myself that hide my Real 'I'. So I want to get to know how Friedman behaves in various situations. If I make no separation between Friedman and the real me, it is impossible to observe him. Only by realizing Friedman is not the real me can I even start to make attempts to observe Friedman."

nice stuff from my man gudjieff. thanks alisa.

these guys like tony parsons hate the "I" word.

they are obsessed with denying our real "I" essence. they use their minds to dismiss themselves right out of existence. lol it would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful to watch.

they now remind of the fundamentalist who deny sex.

i use to hate guys like tony parsons because my essence could sense how lost he was, but i see his shadows now. he is so lost that he cant even see that by denying our real essence it just reestablishes an identity as a non identity. lol and by them denying our real essence this then prevents them from better becoming our real self.

they are all head and no heart

and anyone lurking around here please stay away from guys like tony parsons.

he is doing more harm than good.

you would be better off continuing to be a good person still believing that you are the ego, then denying what actually is, and our own real essence in existence.


someone not being aware of our essence is not near as bad as someone claiming it doesnt exist.




Quote:
Originally Posted by lighthouse View Post
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exist."

Charles Baudelaire


beautiful

Last edited by lonestar; 28-01-2013 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 28-01-2013, 07:34 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by hierophant View Post
you're right! if one's gonna stick very close to non-dual language, one's gotta be putting it strictly that way.
It's not about language per se, it's about statements.
Either I can or I cannot this or that.
If I can, then I exist.
If I can't, than this whole thing is absolutely obsolete.

This reminds me of a guy drowning in mud and trying to pull
himself out by grabbing his own hair with his very own hand.
Not gonna go.
I've ended my curiosity in "modern" advaita,
and all this tiring mind and verbal loops.
The word "modern" isn't here accidentally.

With all the respect for guys like Tony Parsons,
direct experience appearing at Lighthouse's coordinates in time/space
show that things aren't what he claims them to be.
So...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hierophant View Post
even if it were so, do you really believe that sitting around telling yourself you don't exist would change the fact of your existence?
And when I pulled that argument months ago...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hierophant View Post
but in fact with this in mind you perpetuate the whole separation game of a someone on a path to somewhere...
The path and process in non-dual ideas is by far the most lagging part of it all.
But since I am absolutely done with experimenting with it,
I will not go there.

It was nice, much needed and beautiful.
But I'm done with it.
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Old 28-01-2013, 07:48 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by lonestar View Post
lord......





exactly






nice stuff from my man gudjieff. thanks alisa.

these guys like tony parsons hate the "I" word.

they are obsessed with denying our real "I" essence. they use their minds to dismiss themselves right out of existence. lol it would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful to watch.

they now remind of the fundamentalist who deny sex.

i use to hate guys like tony parsons because my essence could sense how lost he was, but i see his shadows now. he is so lost that he cant even see that by denying our real essence it just reestablishes an identity as a non identity. lol and by them denying our real essence this then prevents them from better becoming our real self.

they are all head and no heart

and anyone lurking around here please stay away from guys like tony parsons.

he is doing more harm than good.

you would be better off continuing to be a good person still believing that you are the ego, then denying what actually is, and our own real essence in existence.


someone not being aware of our essence is not near as bad as someone claiming it doesnt exist.







beautiful
Excellent post lonestar!

What great compassion and pity you have shown for guys like this poor, obsessively denying old fellow.

And to save any others by warning them of this devil before they investigate his non~identity identity trap, will serve you well in your journey.

All the best m8,

Opas23.
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Old 28-01-2013, 08:42 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by opas23 View Post
What great compassion and pity you have shown for guys like this poor, obsessively denying old fellow.
tony is not just some poor old innocent man. he is one of the main leaders of this cult, and loves to attack and belittle people for believing in something like hope, with his dogma that there is no reality and nothing really matters.

and whats wrong with calling these guys out anyway?

i now believe they are doing more harm than good and i dont understand why no one else does.
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Old 28-01-2013, 08:59 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by lonestar View Post
tony is not just some poor old innocent man. he is one of the main leaders of this cult, and loves to attack and belittle people for believing in something like hope, with his dogma that there is no reality and nothing really matters.

and whats wrong with calling these guys out anyway?

i now believe they are doing more harm than good and i dont understand why no one else does.
I've never heard anything this Tony Parsons geezer has said. Would you recommend I give him a listen, Lonestar?

Love
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