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Old 10-10-2012, 08:13 AM   #21
beaux reves
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Default "quantum" forgiveness?

The forgiveness I'm attempting to articulate isn't the usual kind. What we usually take to be forgiveness, requires that we have first recognised that another has done something wrong, for forgiveness to be a possibility. This only compounds things and yes, is an indicator that wisdom is absent (lessons not learned, as THIRSTY4 well puts)

So, I'll use the now much over-stated to point of cliché, term "quantum" forgiveness, to see if I can better describe true forgiveness.

If I have deemed that someone has aggrieved me or another, then "I/ego" is present. Therefore whatever it is "I" have witnessed, is an illusion, hasn't therefore, in truth taken place. Forgiveness, in this regard is the best tool to eliminate that "I" in the eternal (beyond) moment. Freedom, liberation, annihilation... can only ever take place there. Ego/ mind will do all possible to reject this, instead placing freedom, liberation in some far off place, point in time; only to be possible after x, y, z has been accomplished. The greatest con, yes? So, the "quantum" forgiveness then (too funny, I don't like that term already!) collapses the constructs of ego/mind (the totality of space/time) and has nothing to do really with compounding the illusion of what ego thinks, feels.

It's wholly counter-intuitive to (guess-who?!)

On a day to day level, if you want peace,(out of which hitherto impossibilities become possible) you have to forgive. And forgive NOW - for 'when-else' could we do it?
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:23 AM   #22
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That's quite a statement. I think it's true ...but..... to me forgiveness feels like a failure to learn from experience. I could bore you with examples of my own experiences of turning the other cheek, only to have it spat upon, yes I know how melodramatic, I just don't know what to do with this forgiveness stuff
you can forgive and still learn from the experience, to give a crude example if someone slapped me I could forgive them but I would also learn to keep my distance from them that bit more or to raise my hand in defence if I saw the same thing about to happen.
When someone can't forgive they hold onto anger and resentment and ultimately only hurt themselves, if someone has broken your trust, but you forgive them, they still have to earn your trust again - otherwise neither of you will have learnt a lesson.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:55 AM   #23
salamander
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Originally Posted by beaux reves View Post
The forgiveness I'm attempting to articulate isn't the usual kind. What we usually take to be forgiveness, requires that we have first recognised that another has done something wrong, for forgiveness to be a possibility. This only compounds things and yes, is an indicator that wisdom is absent (lessons not learned, as THIRSTY4 well puts)

So, I'll use the now much over-stated to point of cliché, term "quantum" forgiveness, to see if I can better describe true forgiveness.

If I have deemed that someone has aggrieved me or another, then "I/ego" is present. Therefore whatever it is "I" have witnessed, is an illusion, hasn't therefore, in truth taken place. Forgiveness, in this regard is the best tool to eliminate that "I" in the eternal (beyond) moment. Freedom, liberation, annihilation... can only ever take place there. Ego/ mind will do all possible to reject this, instead placing freedom, liberation in some far off place, point in time; only to be possible after x, y, z has been accomplished. The greatest con, yes? So, the "quantum" forgiveness then (too funny, I don't like that term already!) collapses the constructs of ego/mind (the totality of space/time) and has nothing to do really with compounding the illusion of what ego thinks, feels.

It's wholly counter-intuitive to (guess-who?!)

On a day to day level, if you want peace,(out of which hitherto impossibilities become possible) you have to forgive. And forgive NOW - for 'when-else' could we do it?
Wonderful thread...thank you...

A few years ago I got into a destructive relationship...following it I was in emotional turmoil and was having problems understanding how I managed to get involved with this person and why he behaved the way he did...I lost friends because of his actions... I had been in destructive relationships before and was beginning to realise that there was something deeper happening...something emitting from me that atttacted these unsuitable partners. Strangely...an acquaintance heard about me, I was actually ostracised by some people...and he lent me a book called Radical Forgiveness...

This basically worked upon the premise that myself and this person were drawn together to learn a spiritual lesson...if the lesson is not learned then the pattern will be repeated until the lesson is learned...ergo: I will continue to be drawn into these kinds of relationships...with cruel, unloving people...until I discover the why's...the other person has been drawn to you
for the same reasons. With Radical Forgiveness you come to accept that what happened was not a randiom event but part of a greater plan.

I could carry on my life feeling hurt and confused and re-telling the story of my terrible time or I can collapse the story and look at it in all its aspects...physical/emotional/spiritual...

The book also told me that at the time I am able to let go the spiritual ties to this person would be severed and he too would no longer feel burdened by what had happened.

The thing is...I now understand why I was drawn to this person and he to me...it was complex and a lot of it unexplainable as it was almost existential...I believe we both had a longing for something...the perfect combination...we saw things in each other that we believed were lacking in ourselves and vice versa and therefore believed that together we would be perfect....

In reality...or the illusion we call reality...neither of us could see beyond the nature of the everyday and the mundane...our chaotic pasts had created selves who were not functioning high enough to transcend the mundane and we functioned on ego alone. When I got honest I could see that it was me who instigated the relationship and me who moved it forward...knowing that it was unsuitable but unable to stop. Once in motion it had to play out.

With thebook in an instant I was able to totally forgive and to even think of him with compassion.

I have used Radical Forgiveness at other times too...

I actually need to look in depth at the feelings I have towards my parents and my childhood as it is stopping my spiritual growth...in order to grow I have to be free of resentment.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:09 AM   #24
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The ego loves to hold onto, and re-run, emotional wounds.

You can drop that hurt, because it is just thought-forms and emotion-forms running on a circular track through your mind and you can release those forms, and not allow them to run. These complexes take on a life of their own and are always expressed with more emotion than the current moment justifies so are clearly identifiable.

Castaneda talked about erasing personal history. I don't think you can or should erase the fact of some wrong that was done but you can erase the emotions that went with it. It's those emotions that have manifesting power and can draw the same situation/kind of person to you over and over again.

Much of the ego is emotional 'stories' about yourself, other people, things that happened to you. Annihilating ego might result in your living in the moment, dealing with what happens, but refusing to re-run those old, now dead, stories of your past, or indeed being apprehensive about the future.

The only thing that is real, is what is happening in this split-second right now.

All the rest can go. You chose to hang on to it, now choose to let it drop. If it is really relevant to the present, your mind will probably pull it up again as a protective measure. If not, it really is past, dead stuff.



Note: this above is still pretty much ego-functioning, although ego would now be much diminished once emotion is out of the way. Since I haven't annihilated my ego, I'm doing my best to think up what ego annihilation might be like, I haven't got there.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:00 AM   #25
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This is exactly what I am struggling with...the letting go of the past...I truly thought that I had dealt with my childhood issues but recent events and my parents' reactions have brought it all up again... I think I had just buried feelings... maybe it's because I am unhappy with my life at the moment and am projecting this unhappiness onto my parents!!

However...if I had experienced a different childhood/teens I would not have my 5 amazing children or met such diverse people...I may not have become as conscious as I am now...as I became aware of injustice at a young age...

Be holding resentments towards my parents I negate my own life experiences, I keep myself locked into the matrix...

I was phoning my parents regularly until a few weeks ago...they are not the easiest of people...one of my brothers hasn't spoken to them for 20 years!! I don't like being ruled by my ego and its perceived injustices against my being... there is spritual growth to be had from my acceptance of my parents...they are never deliberately cruel...they are narcissists...it's always been a case of 'you've made your own bed now go and lie in it' with them...when things are going well for me they are supportive...when I fall ( and i have fallen spectacularly!!! ) I am judged and criticised and the support is withdrawn...it's never been any different so really I should have fully accepted...long ago...that I cannot change them...I can only change myself.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:05 PM   #26
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Ah yes, the "changing other people" trap that the ego falls into.

You're totally right, Salamander, that the only change we can make is within ourselves.

There is a supposed law-of-non-interference that states we can not meddle with other people or their situations. That is up to them, their choice, their manifesting energies.

But it is very possible, indeed likely, that when we change how we relate to them, they will be forced into reviewing and changing their own patterns.

If my parents always condemned my 'falls', I would stop telling them about it. What would be the point?

Is it that there some Inner Critic in you, Salamander, that wants to be condemned and subliminally solicits that response from your parents? We have many of these sub-personalities that make up our ego and some of them are not very pleasant and are projected onto others so we don't have to recognise them.

I have a pretty harsh Critic myself. I have stopped reporting my 'falls' to my husband, so he could criticise me and give me a kind of internal 'pleasure' as those critical words came. That wasn't the real 'me'. That was my Critic accepting the condemnation with glee as it strengthened him ("I'm useless, me").

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Old 10-10-2012, 06:07 PM   #27
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Definately!! I've been very critical of myself lately but really you're so right... and thinking about it , I have made this all about me...they are my parents and I love them and making myself miserable by re - remembering past wrongs is certainly not helping our relationship today. We had made some really strong inroads in our relationship so time to move on I think.

As I've been meandering from the OP somewhat I'd like to say that I agree we live in an illusory universe and that we create our own reality...as I look at my bedroom full of it's books and bric a brac, clothes and ,well, junk, I know that every single thing in my room was once a thought in another person's mind now manifest in my bedroom. It was first an idea from somebody somewhere.

I wish I could be more serene about Life and just accept everything as meant to be, stuff happens and is gone in the blink of an eye but I find it hard to remain centred a lot of the time...I have a lot of responsibities in my life and very little money so we keep it pretty simple but the constraints of the real world are forever there and I like to be aware of what is happening,

However, I have been quite depressed recently and it was partly because I have been getting too involved with researching different topics, mostly following links and watching vids on this forum...I don't post much...I tend to get lost in research...I get books and read on.

Sometimes I get a bit off track and need to remind myself that it's all just an elaborate game...of sorts
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Old 15-10-2012, 11:11 AM   #28
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Hi Salamander,
Perhaps you will find useful to take a break from reading books. Those are great motivator to keep going forth but from time to time you have to stop reading other people's opinion and listen to yours. Calm your mind, eat simple and sparing, walk in the nature alone, like a fasting of the senses and mind.
And, really you can get riddle of old patterns by pushing them away in fear but only temporary. They all came for us to understand something, even, or maybe especially the most horrific ones. Continue to intent to express love, have faith and ask for help from you "higher self" or "angels" or "the Voice" and sooner or later the truth will unveil, setting you free of that cycle.
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Old 15-10-2012, 08:02 PM   #29
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Hi Salamander,
Perhaps you will find useful to take a break from reading books. Those are great motivator to keep going forth but from time to time you have to stop reading other people's opinion and listen to yours. Calm your mind, eat simple and sparing, walk in the nature alone, like a fasting of the senses and mind.
And, really you can get riddle of old patterns by pushing them away in fear but only temporary. They all came for us to understand something, even, or maybe especially the most horrific ones. Continue to intent to express love, have faith and ask for help from you "higher self" or "angels" or "the Voice" and sooner or later the truth will unveil, setting you free of that cycle.
Thanks klara you're absolutely right... I need to spend more time getting back to the simple things in life and listen to the still small voice. I have made peace with my parents though and feel less troubled as a result.
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Old 20-10-2012, 04:50 AM   #30
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The only allusion I see, is when people fail to recognize families deprivation of life lost, whom they may have love dearly. The lack of clarity to the meaning replaced with that illusion of who will it be tomorrow hopefully one of theirs and not one of mine. Oh that illusory gamble, it let's the dice roll again. Let's not forget the other illusory belief that he went to fight and died for his country never needed the job.
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