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Old 10-07-2008, 06:21 PM   #41
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Sarkozy rules out Lisbon Treaty renegotiation
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...breaking30.htm
10 July 2008




French President Nicolas Sarkozy told the European Parliament today that there could be no renegotiation of the Lisbon Treaty and that he would propose a solution for the stalled reform treaty in October or December following consultation with the Irish Government.

The French president made his comments during an address to the European Parliament as he set out the goals of France's six-month presidency of the EU which it assumed on July 1st.

Irish voters rejected the Lisbon Treaty, intended to adapt the 27-nation bloc's institutions for further enlargement, in a referendum last month.

Mr Sarkozy said the choice was either to stick with the Lisbon Treaty or revert to the old Nice Treaty, which the Lisbon Treaty replaces.

The problem with the Nice Treaty, Mr Sarkozy said, was that it implied no further expansion of the EU without the streamlined EU decision-making arrangements which the Lisbon Treaty introduces.

"It is not for a Frenchman to judge the Irish 'No'. We must not offend our Irish colleagues but we need to know under what Treaty we are going to organise the Euro-elections in 2009 - either the Lisbon treaty or the Nice Treaty" said Mr Sarkozy.

"It is either Lisbon or Nice - there can be no more institutional conferences," he said referring to the IGCs which are the forum for treaty negotiations.

He also said he thought it was wrong to put such as issue to a referendum in the first place. To applause from MEPs, he commented: "Institutional things are for members of parliament, rather than referendums - it's a political choice and perfectly democratic."

He added that without reformed institutions, the EU could not enlarge beyond its current 27 members, even though it would continue negotiations with Croatia, the next candidate in line. He said he would propose a solution for the reform treaty this year in consultation with Ireland's leaders.

"The French presidency will propose a method and, I hope, a solution either in October or in December," Mr Sarkozy said.

Mr Sarkozy said he would visit Ireland on July 21st to sound out political leaders on a way forward for the treaty.

The French leader also increased pressure on Polish counterpart Lech Kaczynski to sign the European Union reform treaty.

Mr Kaczynski, widely viewed as Eurosceptic, said earlier this month it would be "pointless" to sign the Lisbon treaty after it was rejected in an Irish referendum and that Warsaw would not ratify it unless Ireland overcomes its voters' opposition to it.

He later said Poland would not block the treaty's ratification.

But Mr Sarkozy urged Mr Kaczynski to keep his word by signing the treaty. "He negotiated the treaty himself. He gave his word and the word has to be honoured. It is not a question of politics, it is a question of morality," Mr Sarkozy told the European Parliament.

Taoiseach Brian Cowen told the Dáil yesterday that the Government's analysis of the Lisbon Treaty referendum result is expected to be available in September.

He said: "The Department of Foreign Affairs is undertaking work on this matter and the information will probably be collated and available in September."

Mr Cowen added: "We need to apply our minds to what forum we can use to conduct dialogue on its implications and collectively assess the means by which we could articulate the issues."

The Taoiseach said the Government would work with the European Commission "to see, based on our preliminary analysis, to what extent we can move matters forward". It was "a difficult situation", which would "probably require further discussion", he added.
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:24 PM   #42
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More subtle brainwashing opinion atrempts...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhgbsnkfeyoj/


Quote:
The No vote was higher among women, younger voters, manual workers and people with lower levels of education.


http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhgbqlsneyoj/

Quote:
Lisbon campaigners to protest during Sarkozy visit


A coalition of groups that campaigned against the Lisbon Treaty says it will mount a protest in Dublin city centre to coincide with the planned visit of French President Nicolas Sarkozy in two weeks' time.

The Campaign Against the European Constitution has said it will be protesting against Mr Sarkozy's refusal to accept Ireland's rejection of the treaty and his policies in general.

The French president plans to visit Ireland on July 11 to discuss the Irish and EU responses to the Lisbon rejection.
WOO HOO!!!
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:23 PM   #43
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Default Post Lisbon Referendum – An analysis of the profil

Post Lisbon Referendum – An analysis of the profile and reasons behind why people voted NO.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/88332
11 July 2008




Introduction

The purpose of this article is to evaluate the recent opinion poll carried out by the European commission on the Lisbon treaty result, paying specific attention to NO voters. The focus will not only be on the profile of those who voted NO, but more importantly the reasons behind why they voted No.

An opinion poll carried out by the European commission on the 13th – 14th June was released during the week. The Eurobarometer randomly surveyed 2,000 people to understand 5 main issues:

1. To understand the reasons for non – participation in the referendum
2. To evaluate the respondents views about the campaign
3. To identify the main reasons for ‘yes’ and ‘no’ votes.
4. To get an overall reaction to the result

The main overall findings make for interesting reading, but a lot of it is unsurprising for those who followed the pre and post analysis of the campaign. Whilst many felt there was a significant ‘class’ factor to the NO vote there was very little evidence to illustrate why and how the working and middle class voted.

The main findings are as follows:

1. Most people did not vote because they did not understand what the issues presented.
2. Most voters felt that campaigners used it as an opportunity to promote their own political agenda
3. There were multi dimensional reasons for why people voted NO (outlined below), but Yes voters were more one dimensional (focusing on the benefits Ireland gain from the EU)
4. Those who voted NO were predominantly young people, women, students, the unemployed and manual workers
5. Those who voted Yes were predominantly managers, professionals and retired people

Profile of No voters

The silent majority :
Before analysing why people voted No it is worth noting that 51% of workers (described as employees in the poll) did not vote in the referendum. That is, 6/10 manual workers did not vote. The poll does not clarify whether those surveyed were eligible to vote, i.e. migrant labourers etc. Only 39% of employers or self employed did not vote. Thus, the majority of working class people in Ireland did not vote in the Lisbon referendum and there is no information detailing how they may have voted.

The two main reasons for not voting by both working and professional class were a) lack of knowledge and b) referendum not important to them. 86% of those who did not vote stated that they still supported Ireland’s membership of the EU.

The voting minority:
It is clear that there was a pattern amongst those who voted NO to Lisbon.After analysing the socio demographic groups of who voted NO there is a clear pattern amongst 5 groups. There are listed below

1. 74% of manual workers
2. 72% of students (predominantly from professional backgrounds)
3. 65% of 18 – 24 year olds (Young people)
4. 58% of unemployed
5. 56% of women (mainly those working in the home)

The 5 main supporters of the YES vote where generally male and came from higher socio economic groups

1. 68% of the self employed
2. 66% of senior managers
3. 58% of professionals
4. 57% of those who had completed higher education
5. 51% of men

Reasons behind why they voted No.

However concentrating on the profile of those who voted will not provide us with any clear understanding as to why people voted NO. Common sense can often tell us what ‘social category’ voters fall into. This is not rocket science. It is far better to concentrate on the reasons people why people voted NO (and after analysing the profile we can ask why did the majority of the working class either disengage or vote NO in the referendum).

The two main reasons provided by NO voters are

a) A lack of information (22%)- Democracy
b) To protect Irish identity (12%) – Nationalism

Besides these two main rationales, NO voters (working class it would appear) listed the following in rank order

c) To safeguard Irish neutrality & defence matters (6%)
d) Lack of trust in politicians (6%)
e) Losing the right to an Irish commissioner (6%)
f) Protest against government policies (4%)
g) Protect influence of small states (3%)
h) To stop introduction of abortion (2%)
i) To avoid an influx of immigrants (1%)

An important figure is the 14% of people gave ‘other’ reasons. These are not detailed in the report. Also an important omission was not providing specific workers related issues on the list of options to people to choose from. There was also no mention of people voting NO against a particular type of Europe, i.e. a Neo Liberal Europe. However, it was mentioned that the 14% contained many different responses so it may be several clusters of smaller reasons with no clear observation such as workers rights.

Conclusions and interpretations

Was class a significant factor? Of course class was a significant factor. It is not rocket science to acknowledge different socio – cultural and socio- economic groups vote in particular patterns. However, what is more significant for those wanting to build upon the NO vote is to analyse the reasons why people voted no. Just because the working class voted NO it would be wrong to conclude that this was some a victory for the progressive left in Ireland.

What is positive is the glaringly obvious fact that most people voted NO because they had no part in creating the decision they were being asked to vote on. Thus, it is a victory for grassroots democracy. Also, the fact that the vast majority of people did not vote on the basis of lack of knowledge shows that people will not be herded in like cattle to vote on something they do not understand.

However, most NO voters also pledged support for one of the two main political parties in the country FG & FF. 49% of FG supporters voted No, 40% of FF supporters voted No, 55% of Labour voters voted No and almost 60% of the Greens voted No, 95% of Sinn Fein voters voted No. Hence it shows that not all those who support a political party will follow the ‘party line’. Arguably, this is a positive sign for progressive politics?

What is also obvious (and personally I find this negative) is the grip of ‘national identity’ upon the politics of the working class. If I was in Sinn Fein I would take a lot of positive from this poll. Nationalism was undoubtedly a massive factor for why people voted NO. So, it looks like the retention of a strong Irish identity amongst the working class is still a crucial political concern.
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Old 13-07-2008, 05:39 PM   #44
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The European Defence Agency: Arms for War and Profit
http://www.pana.ie/idn/071108.html
by Carol Fox, Research Officer, PANA (July 2008)




One of the many surprises thrown up by the Lisbon Treaty debate was that the European arms industry had managed to set up shop within the EU. Not only were we being obliged to spend more on armaments ["Art. 28(3): Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military capabilities"], but an entire EU agency dedicated to bolstering the defence sector and the arms trade was being brought into an EU Treaty.

How had this happened? Where had this European Defence Agency (EDA) come from? And what was the attitude of the Irish Government to all of this?

There are a number of excellent reports by the human rights group, Statewatch, and the Transnational Institute outlining how the European arms merchants got into the EU shop: it was via the EU Commission 'kitchen’. There are over 15,000 lobbyists in Brussels, mostly representing business interests, and many of them are invited by the Commission to sit on special policy committees. One such group was the EU Advisory Group on Aerospace. Nearly half its members were aerospace industry chairmen, including those from Europe’s four largest arms companies. Their 'Strategic Aerospace Review for the 21st Century’, published in July 2002, called for the creation of a 'level playing field so Europe’s industry can compete fairly in world markets’. Ultimately, what was required was the establishment of a: "European armaments policy to provide structure for European defence and security equipment markets, and to allow a sustainable and competitive technological and industrial base".

The EU Commission embraced this proposal: good for business, good for EU military ambitions. By the spring of 2003, it had produced 'Towards an EU Defence Equipment Policy", incorporating the Aerospace Review concepts and calling for the creation of an Agency to oversee these developments. The very first draft of the EU Constitution in 2003 contained provisions for a European Armaments, Research and Military Capabilities Agency, (later renamed the European Defence Agency). It was not surprising that such an agency would be part of the new EU Constitution, which was on track to boost the EU’s military dimension. Indeed, during the preparatory work for the Constitution by the EU Convention, 13 'expert’ witnesses were called before the Working Group on Defence including a General, military reps from the EU and member-states, two reps from the arms industry, and President of the European Defence Industries Group. The working group never asked to hear from civil society representatives.

Measures to boost EU military capabilities pre-dated the EU Constitution. Member States in 2003 promised to develop their military capabilities to an agreed state of readiness by 2010 (the so-called Headline Goal), so the EU could 'respond with rapid and decisive action ….to the whole spectrum of crisis management operations’ included in earlier EU Treaties. Under the 2004 Irish Presidency, the European Council gave its final blessings to these Goals, adding that the EU must consider pre-emptive actions and have the 'ability to conduct concurrent operations … simultaneously at different levels of engagement’. This was all underpinned by the European Security Strategy authored by EU Foreign Affairs and Security chief, Javier Solana, in 2003.

The EU Constitution would have leant a helping hand to these military improvements. When it was defeated in 2005, its military provisions were fully incorporated into the Lisbon Treaty.

Lisbon spells out the EDA’s role in ensuring that the EU is fighting fit. Not only will the Agency be responsible for supporting the defence sector and defence R&D, but it will identify operational requirements for the EU’s developing military force, assist in defining a European capabilities and armaments policy, and monitor the improvement of EU military capabilities. It has a special responsibility for the new Permanent Structured Cooperation provision in Lisbon, a mechanism allowing certain member states to form mini-military alliances within the EU’s structures for the EU’s 'more demanding’ missions. The EDA is to ensure that these states are fully equipped to carry out these demanding missions.

The EDA has no misapprehensions about the importance of its role. It shouldn’t have. It already exists. So eager were the EU Powers That Be to have its services, that the EDA didn’t have to wait for the Constitution’s blessings. It was up and running from July 2004, when approved by the EU Foreign Ministers. In other words, with the Constitution defeated and Lisbon knocked down by Ireland, the EDA has still not been placed into the EU Treaties. The EU’s Foreign Affairs Supremo, Javier Solana, is head of the EDA. Its steering group consists of the EU defence ministers and the EU Commission.

The self-assured Agency even produced a Long Term Vision Statement in 2006, outlining some of the tasks it sees before it: "The Headline Goal and European Security Strategy envisage a broad and significantly challenging set of potential missions. These include separation of warring factions by force, on the sort of scale that would have been required had a ground invasion of Kosovo in 1999 turned out to be necessary. They may also encompass stabilising operations in a failed state .... So the demands of today’s European Security and Defence Policy are already potentially deep and comprehensive."..."Future joint forces will need agility at the operational and tactical levels as well as the strategic. Once deployed, EU Member States’ joint forces may need to be able to operate at will within all domains and across the depth and breadth of the operational area, possessing combinations of stealth, speed, information superiority, connectivity, protection, and lethality. They may need to operate in complex terrain and inside cities."

These EU joint forces are already under development, including a 60,000-strong Rapid Reaction Force capable of intervening far beyond the EU’s borders. The French Presidency next month hopes to speed up that process. Meanwhile, the EU is already in action with a number of rapidly deployable Battlegroups, consisting of up to 2500 troops, with capabilities for high intensity operations. NATO has described the Battlegroups as "providing the EU with 'ready to go’ military capability to respond to crises around the world". Ireland has been a member of the Nordic Battlegroup since 2006.

This Vision Statement was also written with the knowledge that the EU’s military tasks had been expanded by the EU Constitution (and now Lisbon). In addition to the humanitarian, peace-keeping/peace-enforcement tasks of previous treaties, there are new provisions for joint disarmament operations, post-conflict stabilization and combating terrorism in countries outside the EU. There are also mutual defence and solidarity clauses, with the latter dealing with joint actions against terrorism, including the need to counter perceived 'threats’ as well as attacks.

Ireland: eager members of the EDA

Ireland joined the EDA immediately, in July 2004. There was no Dail debate and no vote. The decision was taken by the Government. Defence Minister Willie O’Dea stated the EDA was an intergovernmental agency within the framework of the EU’s European Security and Defence Policy and that membership didn’t oblige or commit Ireland to do anything other than contribute to the EDA’s budget. The fact that the EDA would be in the business of promoting armaments and boosting the arms trade didn’t seem to bother the Minister or the Irish Government.

It is within the Lisbon Treaty provisions concerning the EDA that Member States are obliged to improve their military capabilities. EDA Head Javier Solana has made it clear that there is an 'absolute requirement for us to spend more, spend better and spend more together’.

In 2008, Ireland will be making a financial contribution of €327,000 to the EDA. In addition, Ireland has, since 2007, been participating in the Joint Investment Programme on Force Protection. This has a budget of €55 million over 3 years, to which Ireland is committing €700,000. (Research areas include: Stand off detection of Chemical, Biological, radiological, nuclear and high-yield explosives; Defence options for airborne threats; Scope spotting and sniper detection: Research on new materials for force protection).

There are basic questions which must be asked about Ireland’s involvement with the EDA. Historically, Irish Governments – in keeping with popular sentiment -- have not been proponents of the arms industry. Ministers have invariably denied the existence of any indigenous Irish arms sector (despite evidence from Amnesty International and Afri to the contrary). Indeed, for over thirty years, Irish state boards promoting research and enterprise, such as Enterprise Ireland, have been bound by legislation stating they: "shall not engage in or promote any activity of a primarily military relevance without the prior approval of the Government"

The Department of Defence’s Strategy Statement, 2008—2010, extols the EDA as providing "opportunities of interest to Irish-based enterprises and researchers" and states: "We will work closely with Enterprise Ireland to exploit potential research and commercial opportunities arising".

Ireland’s relations with the developing world have prompted concerns about arms spending and the global arms trade. But the EDA is focused on increasing global competitiveness for EU arms industries, particularly in relation to the United States, a direction reinforced by the EU Commission in its 2007 "A Strategy for a Stronger and More Competitive European Defence Industry". Already, EU companies are responsible for over €80 billion a year in arms sales.

The EDA and Lisbon

Since the EDA already exists, one might ask: how has defeating Lisbon affected that organization? There are at least four implications.

1.Without Lisbon, Member States are not legally obliged to progressively improve their military capabilities;

2.The EDA has still not been placed into the EU Treaties;

3.The new expanded military tasks have not been given Treaty status and the EDA should not be promoting capabilities, etc. in these areas;

4.The provision of Permanent Structured Cooperation -- in which the EDA was to have played a major role -- has not been approved.

How Ireland ever joined the EDA without parliamentary debate or approval is incomprehensible. Maybe now, post-Lisbon, questions will begin to be asked about Ireland’s involvement in this agency and about the entire EU military project.
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If you strike at,imprison,or kill us,out of our prisons or graves we will still evoke a spirit that will thwart you,and perhaps,raise a force that will destroy you! We defy you! Do your worst!”-James Connolly 1909
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Old 13-07-2008, 05:40 PM   #45
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European style: nobody loves it
http://mondediplo.com/2008/07/01european
By Serge Halimi
July 2008




Imagine a man on trial for his life. The jury brings in a verdict of not guilty, so the judge immediately invites counsel for the prosecution to complete his closing speech, and then the accused is found guilty and sentenced to death. The Irish rejected the Lisbon Treaty on 12 June by a large majority. The treaty cannot come into force unless it is adopted by all 27 member states of the European Union, but most European leaders immediately announced that the ratification process would continue, yet promised to “respect the will” of the Irish people (see “Ireland votes no”). Europe is used to attacks on the sovereign power of the people by their overlords. That is now its style, even if it likes to be seen as the kingdom of democracy on earth.

The Irish rejected a “simplified” treaty so big the prime minister, Brian Cowen, confessed he had not managed to read it cover to cover. A member of the European parliament said the Irish reminded him of a “people’s democracy”. Another remarked: “It’s no accident that dictators love a referendum” (1) and the president of the European parliament, Hans-Gert Pöttering, concluded: “The Irish no vote cannot be the last word” (2). So there will be a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and possibly a third. Voting in Dublin will continue until the result is a yes, because that is what the other states want, those states where the electorate has not been consulted at all.

Blame the Irish! Ungrateful, selfish, working-class militants, incapable of the generosity and unselfishness shown by their rulers. Except when they vote them in and give them a mandate to carry out “bold reforms”. No need for a second ballot then. The Irish are thoroughly European in that respect.

Something has gone wrong. The European style has been exported and sold on the strength of claims to peace, prosperity, justice and equality. It has produced charming posters with blue skies, loving mothers and happy babies; it has an army of journalists and artists campaigning for it; Europe is being created by symposiums and meetings. But nobody waves its flag. Its identity seems to be so insubstantial that all it can think of to put on its banknotes is the cost of living.

It talks about peace but prepares to join the US forces in dubious wars. It talks about progress but deregulates employment. It talks about culture but produces a television without frontiers directive that will result mainly in more advertising slots. It talks about ecology and safe food but lifts an 11-year ban on imports of US chickens washed in chlorine (3). It talks about freedom but adopts a shameful directive under which foreigners without the right papers may be held in detention centres for 18 months before being expelled, including minors and even unaccompanied minors.

Keeping Europe’s promise called for harmonisation at the highest level: freedom, employment law, progressive taxation, independence. Instead, the gains achieved by the most advanced states have been diminished in the name of unification and we are left with extended detention, free trade and Atlanticism. This has produced the beginnings of a social Europe, the Europe that says no. Noting that in Ireland a majority of women, people under 29, and workers firmly rejected the proposed text, a columnist in The Economist observed that: “A 19th-century-style electoral roll, restricted to older, male property-owners, would have produced a handsome yes for Lisbon” (4). But what kind of Europe can we hope to construct if we go back to the property qualification?
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If you strike at,imprison,or kill us,out of our prisons or graves we will still evoke a spirit that will thwart you,and perhaps,raise a force that will destroy you! We defy you! Do your worst!”-James Connolly 1909
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Old 13-07-2008, 09:58 PM   #46
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sorry sub x, skipped past your posts. it does seem exactly what good ol' DI was saying about this topic; that they'll keep on pushing and pushing till they get the result they want.

how can they say; we got all bar 1 country to pass it, let's keep it like that, and those people who said no can vote again, but the countries that said ok are not going to have another vote, let alone a public one.
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Old 15-07-2008, 03:24 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brenbren View Post
sorry sub x, skipped past your posts. it does seem exactly what good ol' DI was saying about this topic; that they'll keep on pushing and pushing till they get the result they want.

how can they say; we got all bar 1 country to pass it, let's keep it like that, and those people who said no can vote again, but the countries that said ok are not going to have another vote, let alone a public one.



Lisbon treaty: Pressure on Ireland for second vote
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...lisbon.ireland
15 July 2008




The Irish government is under mounting pressure to stage a second referendum on the European Union reform treaty. As EU leaders met in Brussels to respond to the Lisbon treaty's crushing defeat last week by Irish voters, Brian Cowen, the Irish prime minister, went into his first EU summit as head of government facing growing calls to ask his public to vote again.

The French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, who takes over the EU presidency in 10 days, let it be known that he wanted all other 26 EU countries to ratify the treaty swiftly. His foreign policy adviser said the best solution to the Irish no vote was a rerun.

Gordon Brown arrived in Brussels in the unaccustomed position of having boosted his pro-EU credentials by completing the UK's ratification of the treaty on the eve of the summit, a step that other EU states saw as softening the Irish blow. Sarkozy, who lunched with Brown in Paris before both men travelled to Brussels, praised the prime minister for his "political courage" in pressing ahead with the British ratification in the face of Conservative calls for a halt. "I want to say how pleased I am and thank him for demonstrating political courage by leading the ratification process of the Lisbon treaty," Sarkozy said. "He did this with commitment and much strength."

The British government maintains it is up to Dublin to decide how to proceed, but France and Germany want a new ballot. Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, who met Cowen on her own today for discussions, was careful to avoid any suggestion of bullying Ireland following heavy criticism of trenchant German statements earlier in the week.

Cowen said it was too early to decide on solutions, while José Manuel Barroso, the European commission chief, said an EU summit in October was "the appropriate moment" for this. Jean Asselborn, Luxembourg's foreign minister, said Ireland would need to have a second vote: "The question is how can we prepare it so that it can be won." Elmar Brok, a senior MEP from Merkel's Christian democratic party, declared controversially that Ireland would need to vote again and a new referendum would decide whether Ireland stayed in the EU or not.

Speculation is raging in Brussels over what might be promised to Cowen to make a second referendum a less distressing prospect. The treaty reduces the number of commissioners in Brussels from the current 27 to 18, a change that has upset Ireland and other small countries. Barroso said it would be "extremely difficult" to tinker with the treaty to make it more palatable to Ireland, meaning guaranteeing the country a permanent European commissioner permanently would be almost impossible.

Amid the head-scratching, no one suggested the treaty should be scrapped. "We need the Lisbon Treaty," said Merkel, calling for quick decisions and a fast solution. "Europe can't afford to have another phase of reflection."

That contrasted with the British position. "We do need a period of reflection," said a UK government official. German government sources conceded that the Irish government needed time, but said the two-day summit would achieve a "magnificent result" if it agreed on a timetable for action.

An expected statement will refer to Cowen's explanation for the Irish rejection and voice "respect" for the Irish electorate's verdict. The statement, drafted today, calls on the seven EU countries that have not yet endorsed the treaty to continue with ratification.

France and Germany were keen to emphasise the need for further ratification, seen as a way of putting pressure on Ireland. But the Czech government, which has parked ratification for several months in its supreme court, threatened to veto such a process. "We won't vote for that. It makes no sense," said Karl Schwarzenberg, the Czech foreign minister.

Brown would ideally like ratification to be wrapped up by next year to avoid a damaging row with the Tories, who have pronounced the treaty dead, in the run up the next general election, expected in 2010. But the prime minister believes EU leaders cannot brush aside the no vote in Ireland, which may have to lead to a substantive declaration from EU leaders if there is to be a second Irish vote.

British government sources would not be drawn on what changes might be made and on whether a deadline - possibly the next European summit in October - should be placed on the Irish government to reach a view.
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If you strike at,imprison,or kill us,out of our prisons or graves we will still evoke a spirit that will thwart you,and perhaps,raise a force that will destroy you! We defy you! Do your worst!”-James Connolly 1909
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Old 16-07-2008, 11:43 AM   #48
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Ah yes that democracy thing again...

Quote:
Sarkozy: Ireland must vote on Lisbon again
Tuesday, 15 July 2008

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has said Ireland will have to hold a second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

Mr Sarkozy made the remarks to deputies at a meeting in his office earlier today.

UMP party deputies reported that Mr Sarkozy said 'The Irish will have to vote again' after the Treaty was rejected last month.

President Sarkozy is due to travel to Ireland on 21 July to discuss the reasons for the No vote and seek solutions to it.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin said President Sarkozy is coming to Ireland to 'listen', and not to impose any solutions.

Mr Martin also stressed that Ireland would make its own decision in due course, and it was far too early to say what that would be.

Quote:
Cowen plays down Sarkozy remarks
Wednesday, 16 July 2008 12:30

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has played down the significance of remarks by French President Nicolas Sarkozy on the need for another referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

Speaking in New York, Mr Cowen said Ireland had to acknowledge there was a range of views across Europe about the problems faced after the rejection of the treaty last month.

Mr Cowen's tone was measured, but privately those close to him are thought to be seething about President Sarkozy's intervention when he said the Irish would have to vote again.

The Taoiseach said we had to acknowledge that others across Europe had views about the fall-out from the referendum, but the Government was only at the start of its examination of the consequences and the way ahead.

Asked when ministers would decide on a possible second referendum, he said it was not just a matter of the Government deciding: an enlarged Europe represented not just a two-way but a 27-way street and we would have to discuss the situation with colleagues.

His Government had not come to any conclusion at this stage, he said.

The French president's remarks will not help preparations for his visit to Ireland next Monday.

Mr Cowen is in New York on a three-day visit. He is due to ring the opening bell on Wall Street today (watch it at 2.30pm on RTÉ.ie/Live) and have talks with the city's mayor, Michael Bloomberg.
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Old 16-07-2008, 01:06 PM   #49
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The tide is turning on the EU MasterPlan... Was listening to d'arcy on today fm this morning, and his opening comments on the show were about sarkozy's comments yesterday... Now i was ready to hear him say that it was a good idea (he did state before the referendum that he was voting yes)

But ray proved me wrong, by saying that if another referendum is called that he was going to emigrate in disgust at the complete and utter disrespect for the mandate that we had handed our government, and went on to digress that the no vote would more than likely be stronger in the event of a "lisbon 2"

Nice to see that the tide is turning, i, amongst thousands, actively campaigned on the streets for a no vote for weeks running up to the referendum, and can see where this is going.

I also said to my peers that we'd be puninshed by an interest rate hike if there was a no vote, and that the premise for a government campaign for a second referendum would be to save our economy...
I've been saying, as i've seen others say here, for a long time that our economy is only supposedly failing now due to our involvement in the EU, or to be more precise, the Euro currency...

The boom started when we were using the Punt!!! Then it went haywire when the euro came in with the low interest rates! People went mad buying property because of the low interest rates, but now that mr Jean-Claude Trichet (who used to work with an american banking cartel that funded the Nazi's in the past) has been progressively increasing the interest rates it's crippled our economy by pushing up the cost of living in a country wherein the majority of people buy their own propery (unlike the majority in europe) - therefore increasing wage demands and killing our competitiveness!!!


ONE thing astounds me however........ BILDERBERGER (2008) Charlie McCreevey had been subtley praising the "No" campaign, saying in the run-up to the referendum that we were running a great campaign... And then was the first EuroCrat to say publically that the EU had to respect our vote....

What's his agenda???




By the way, i'm new here, hope you're all well!
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Old 16-07-2008, 02:41 PM   #50
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The tide is turning on the EU MasterPlan... Was listening to d'arcy on today fm this morning, and his opening comments on the show were about sarkozy's comments yesterday... Now i was ready to hear him say that it was a good idea (he did state before the referendum that he was voting yes)

But ray proved me wrong, by saying that if another referendum is called that he was going to emigrate in disgust at the complete and utter disrespect for the mandate that we had handed our government, and went on to digress that the no vote would more than likely be stronger in the event of a "lisbon 2"

Nice to see that the tide is turning, i, amongst thousands, actively campaigned on the streets for a no vote for weeks running up to the referendum, and can see where this is going.

I also said to my peers that we'd be puninshed by an interest rate hike if there was a no vote, and that the premise for a government campaign for a second referendum would be to save our economy...
I've been saying, as i've seen others say here, for a long time that our economy is only supposedly failing now due to our involvement in the EU, or to be more precise, the Euro currency...

The boom started when we were using the Punt!!! Then it went haywire when the euro came in with the low interest rates! People went mad buying property because of the low interest rates, but now that mr Jean-Claude Trichet (who used to work with an american banking cartel that funded the Nazi's in the past) has been progressively increasing the interest rates it's crippled our economy by pushing up the cost of living in a country wherein the majority of people buy their own propery (unlike the majority in europe) - therefore increasing wage demands and killing our competitiveness!!!

ONE thing astounds me however........ BILDERBERGER (2008) Charlie McCreevey had been subtley praising the "No" campaign, saying in the run-up to the referendum that we were running a great campaign... And then was the first EuroCrat to say publically that the EU had to respect our vote....

What's his agenda???




By the way, i'm new here, hope you're all well!
welcome barfly and great post. well said.

good ol ray d'arcy! if he's managed to wake up there's fooking hope

omg i'm so depressed today, fooking unconscious tossers...a bad day today!!! not you guys lol just bad words with family, don't mix this stuff with family lol



You're dead right on everything up there, and well done to you for taking to the streets! my hat off to you!

i know mccreevey is a sly Bµtard <-- lol it came out like that and it's staying typed like that!


this is a crap post sorry!
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Old 16-07-2008, 03:09 PM   #51
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ONE thing astounds me however........ BILDERBERGER (2008) Charlie McCreevey

What's his agenda???
His agenda is Charlie McCreevy - he is a classic example of that most vile of self-serving polticians.

He was the mastermind against the "Dublin Mindset" which relocated the Department of the Marine to a landlocked county during his now universally discreited civil service relocation programme, put a tax on imported wine for his pals in the publican lobby in order to "safeguard the Irish pint drinkers right to have a good pint!" and built at taxpayers expense a new train station in his own constituency at Monesterevan in order to win an election. The station is barely used and is caused havoc with the Dublin - Kildare train services when it was put on the timetable. He is an utterly appalling self-serving creature in every sense.
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Old 16-07-2008, 03:38 PM   #52
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His agenda is Charlie McCreevy - he is a classic example of that most vile of self-serving polticians.

He was the mastermind against the "Dublin Mindset" which relocated the Department of the Marine to a landlocked county during his now universally discreited civil service relocation programme, put a tax on imported wine for his pals in the publican lobby in order to "safeguard the Irish pint drinkers right to have a good pint!" and built at taxpayers expense a new train station in his own constituency at Monesterevan in order to win an election. The station is barely used and is caused havoc with the Dublin - Kildare train services when it was put on the timetable. He is an utterly appalling self-serving creature in every sense.
hopefully that will answer barfly's question well said dude

ah mccreevy...impressive stuff for a man who can barely manage to talk 'EH EH..EH EH EH...(and....) EH EHHHH"
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Old 16-07-2008, 04:07 PM   #53
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His agenda is Charlie McCreevy - he is a classic example of that most vile of self-serving polticians.

He was the mastermind against the "Dublin Mindset" which relocated the Department of the Marine to a landlocked county during his now universally discreited civil service relocation programme, put a tax on imported wine for his pals in the publican lobby in order to "safeguard the Irish pint drinkers right to have a good pint!" and built at taxpayers expense a new train station in his own constituency at Monesterevan in order to win an election. The station is barely used and is caused havoc with the Dublin - Kildare train services when it was put on the timetable. He is an utterly appalling self-serving creature in every sense.
Thanks for the reply endlessvista! Yeah i know that station, useless!

I just find it quite strange, that he was the only EU Commissioner that was invited to Bilderberg this year (and he was ridiculed by others on the commission for making the trip after the referendum result, they didnt say bilderberg of course, just that he was in america when he should have been securing a yes vote)
and also the first voice in to support the Irish from the Eurocracy...

If he's in cahoots with these guys and their grand scheme for globalism, why would he be so quick to side with those that are throwing a spanner in the works... I can't help but think that theres some other plan lurking around the corner... Like, fellow Bilderberger Peter Sutherland was one of Libertas' main enemies during the referendum campaign!

It just seems to me that his behaviour is strange.... Or perhaps i'm looking into this too much...! Perhaps he's got his orders to give to the commission and he's just filling us with crap to keep us sweet... (but then again, he's unelected in his current position so why the need?)

On an aside, just heard that Ben Dunne is going to run for election if they call Lisbon 2, in protest to the slow death of democracy!
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Old 17-07-2008, 12:26 PM   #54
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On an aside, just heard that Ben Dunne is going to run for election if they call Lisbon 2, in protest to the slow death of democracy!
Now that is ironic.

But if we can make use of him then so be it. I really do not care who is on NO side or is funding it. We'll sort out the fine details afterwards as a free country and not an EU state. Mostly because that option will be still open to us and not be determined by some faceless, unelected goons in the EU.
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Old 20-07-2008, 01:49 AM   #55
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Now that is ironic.

But if we can make use of him then so be it. I really do not care who is on NO side or is funding it. We'll sort out the fine details afterwards as a free country and not an EU state. Mostly because that option will be still open to us and not be determined by some faceless, unelected goons in the EU.

Well said Panda


Libertas accepts invitation to meet Sarkozy
http://www.libertas.org/content/view/307/1/
18 July 2008




Libertas Chairman Declan Ganley has this afternoon said he has accepted an invitation to meet French President Nicholas Sarkozy.

Sarkozy will be hosting a meeting of members of the Yes and No sides from the Lisbon Treaty campaign on Monday.

"Along with many of my fellow Irish & European citizens, I was offended to hear Sarkozy say that Ireland would have to vote again. Sarkozy himself has denied the people of France a vote on the Lisbon Treaty saying 'if there was a referendum in France, there would be no treaty'. For Sarkozy to tell Ireland to vote again is a shocking indictment of the anti-democratic attitude of some European leaders.

As a European, and in particular as current President of the European Council, Sarkozy has a democratic responsibility to respect the will of the Irish people.

The Lisbon Treaty is dead, the same formula has now been rejected by the Dutch and by Sarkozy's own people and now by the people of Ireland.

Ireland was the only country to hold a referendum, and the people said no. If our fellow Europeans in the other 26 countries were given a referendum, I am sure that most of them would give the same answer that Ireland did.

I want Europe to be strong, prosperous and democratically legitimate. Comments by Sarkozy in response to the only democratic say on the Lisbon Treaty make Europe weaker.

On Monday when we meet, I will be asking that he accept that the Irish people have rejected the Lisbon Treaty.

Libertas will not participate in any debate on the Lisbon treaty on Monday - that debate ended when the people of Ireland voted no".
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Old 20-07-2008, 01:59 AM   #56
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VIEWS OF ANTI-LISBON CAMPAIGNERS SUPPRESSED
http://www.people.ie/press/080717.pdf
17 July 2008



Former Green MEP Patricia McKenna claims the Government is in a state of denial over the results of the Lisbon Treaty referendum and is determined to suppress the voice of those opposed to the treaty.

McKenna, who is chairperson of the People’s Movement, was reacting to reports in today’s media that plans for the French president Nicolas Sarkozy to meet in public with anti-Lisbon Treaty campaigners have been scrapped. She said “Scrapping such a move raises serious concerns about the Government’s commitment to listen to the people and to respect the result of the Lisbon referendum. It also displays a fear of public debate that would allow Mr. Sarkozy hear the views of the No side and allow the Irish people hear his reaction to those views.”

She said “the Government’s failure to make contact with any of the No groups since the referendum indicates an unwillingness to engage in genuine debate”.She said,“reports in today’s media that ‘the Government had been strongly opposed to the idea of a National Forum on Europe-type meeting from the beginning,believing it would grant the No side unreasonable prominence’ clearly demonstrates that the Government is still in a state of denial about the result.The reality is that the No side are already prominent by virtue of the fact they the won the referendum and no amount of suppression,spin doctoring or censorship will alter that fact.”

The former MEP also questioned the claim by the French president that he wanted “to listen” to the views of the No side during his visit to Ireland. She said “Mr. Sarkozy’s private remarks earlier this week when he told French MPs that Ireland would have to vote again indicates that he already has his mind made up. However, this comes as no surprise from a man who publicly admits that his own people would reject Lisbon again if they were given the chance to vote on it.”

“President Sarkozy was elected on a promise that he would deliver a slimmed down mini-version of the EU Constitution to his people. Instead they got a treaty that is over seven thousand words longer; admittedly it is over 50 pages shorter, because the font size was reduced and the line spacing removed. Although he did not promise the French people a referendum, he did promise them a mini-treaty, which he failed to deliver and now denies them the right to vote on this treaty because they would say NO.”

“Perhaps President Sarkozy would be better to focus on getting his own house in order before he starts dictating to the Irish people.As the current president of the EU he should be using the rejection of Lisbon to push for a full public debate on Europe’s future where the views and concerns of real people take centre stage” concluded McKenna.
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Old 20-07-2008, 02:22 PM   #57
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Default All set for Sarko tomorrow?!!!

Sarkozy lands in dublin tomorrow, oooooooooh i can't wait to see what happens!!!



i just posted on another thread that i saw David Cameron on french tv this morning, and he was asked about what he thought of the french president. He replied that he had met him a few times before he became president, and that he makes decisions that are not good for France, but "good for Europe".

Actually out of Cameron's own gob that came!

I tell ya thought Sarkozy's the ONE to watch in this EU minefield...and he's french so they keep him out of Irish/British media so you guys think he's unimportant, one friend of mine said he seems an "average politician"...omg...
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Old 20-07-2008, 10:33 PM   #58
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[QUOTE=celtic isis;427306]Sarkozy lands in dublin tomorrow, oooooooooh i can't wait to see what happens!!!

QUOTE]

Ah yes,a nice little surprise in store for Mr.Sarkozy's arrival tomorrow



Irish 'No' vote architect plans Europe-wide 'referendum' on Lisbon Treaty
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...on-Treaty.html
by Tim Shipman in Washington


The man who delivered an historic "No" vote in Ireland against the EU's Lisbon Treaty has revealed far-reaching plans to give voters throughout Europe a peoples' referendum on the handover of power to Brussels.

Declan Ganley is planning to field more than 400 candidates in next June's European Parliament elections, in the 26 countries – including Britain – where voters have had no direct say on the treaty.

The energy and rhetoric of Mr Ganley, a multimillionaire businessman, was widely credited with persuading the Irish to reject the treaty, even though every leading Irish political party apart from Sinn Fein was urging voters to say "Yes".

Now he wants to give British voters a chance to deliver a bloody nose to both the Brussels establishment and to Gordon Brown, whose party first promised and then refused a referendum in Britain.

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Ganley disclosed that he was starting to raise £75 million from online donations to run candidates in all 12 of Britain's European Parliament constituencies, and in seats throughout the EU.

He will turn his pressure group, Libertas, into a party with just one policy: to fight the Lisbon Treaty, which many see as the rejected European Constitution by the back door.

"We will tell people that Libertas is the box you put your X in if you want to vote 'No' to the Lisbon Treaty. It's clear, it's simple," he said.

"The message will be: we are now giving you a referendum and it's going to take place in June of next year at the European elections.

"People across Europe will have the chance to send the same resounding clear message that Brussels cannot continue with this treaty that the Irish people have rejected. For this to provide a meaningful opportunity for this to be a referendum, you'd have to run at least 400 candidates across Europe."

Mr Ganley spoke as the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, whose country currently holds the rotating EU presidency, prepared for a visit to Ireland to assess the fall-out from June's rejection vote. The French leader, who will arrive in Dublin tomorrow, is a key supporter of the treaty and has already infuriated Irish euro-sceptics by suggesting that they "will have to vote again". Yesterday Mr Sarkozy said he would listen to Irish objections to the treaty, but added that the views of the 23 countries that had adopted the treaty already could not be overlooked.

Mr Ganley has previously flirted with the idea of expanding his campaign. But he has never before disclosed his ambition to run so many candidates in what could in effect be a Europe-wide "people's referendum" on the treaty.

He accused Mr Brown of ratifying the document without the referendum Labour once indicated it would offer: "It's not just undemocratic, it's anti-democratic," he said.

"It's an absolute disgrace that the British Government offered a referendum and then took it away. Power belongs to all the citizens of the UK and you loan that power on the condition that it is used wisely. You don't lend it to politicians to give away to someone who never has to ask you for a vote. That is what Gordon Brown has just done in just ratifying this treaty."

His plans will unsettle the Brussels establishment, which was at first dismissive of his efforts and then humiliated by his success in Ireland.

Mr Ganley, 39, made his fortune in the telecoms industry, but now runs Rivada Networks, a defence contractor with offices in Ireland and America, which supplies emergency response equipment to the military. A devout Catholic and teetotaller, who is said to work 18-hour days, he was born in London to Irish parents, but has returned to his family's roots in Co Galway, where he now lives in the former home of the folk singer Donovan with his American-born wife Delia and four children.

Mr Ganley said that campaigning on a single issue would enable voters to deliver "a clear, unequivocal message" that Europe's elites would not be able to misinterpret. In the past, EU leaders have claimed that "No" votes on the constitution in France and the Netherlands were the consequence of domestic political issues.

Mr Ganley hopes to win more than 80 seats in Strasbourg, creating a Europe-wide voting bloc which would have a strong mandate to block passage of the treaty. "There's no national party that can provide that sort of punching power in the European Parliament. The voters will have mandated candidates to go in and ensure that there will be no attempts to resuscitate the Lisbon Treaty."

Unlike many Tory eurosceptics, Mr Ganley says he supports the European Union but objects to the 287-page treaty document – which he says is far too long and complicated to be comprehensible.
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Old 20-07-2008, 11:01 PM   #59
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There was an article in The Village magazine which I was reading in Easons for free today about how the entire EU is one monster weapons manufacturing and export machine and how these war profiteers are licking their lips at the thought of Lisbon being implemented.

As for Eamon Gilmore of the Labour Party having a sudden attack of democracy by refusing to meet Sarkozy, well... too late muppet. The trade unions and civil servants whom your party only represents all made a deal with the devil and you can't take the moral high ground now and expect Irish people to not see thorugh your pathetic little self-serving stance.
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Old 21-07-2008, 03:34 AM   #60
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sarkozy drunk as a skunk (who is also drunk apparently)
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