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Old 08-10-2013, 06:19 PM   #1
nemus_amaranthi
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Default Video : Ophiuchus - The Constellation of Confusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijIOLo-uGKg

"Ophiuchus holds apart the serpent which with its mighty spirals and twisted body encircles his own, so that he may untie its knots and back that winds in loops. But, bending its supple neck, the serpent looks back and returns: and the other's hands slide over the loosened coils. The struggle will last forever, since they wage it on level terms with equal powers"

In this video I dissect this confusing aspect of astrological analysis - the so called "13th Sign" of the Zodiac has been one of the most disputed and disregarded topics within astrology as it alters the layout that can't be changed and it also fuels the arguments of skeptics that argue the stars and their influence.

Through misinterpretation, Ophiuchus has thrown people into the effects being the cause, rather than viewing astrology as a purely geometric system of angles and houses.

I don't agree that it has any place in astrology, however I explain how it could be, but it would mean measuring a natal chart by the Moon sign - a Luna-centric system - as the Moon has 13 orbits per year as it passes above and below the ecliptic. Only then could the "sign" have any validity, but this would mean an entirely different interpretation of the houses and the philosophy in general.

By explaining the mythology through metaphors, I also explain that Scorpio would have to be the sign that would be excluded, rather than Sagittarius and that the constellations don't even fit into 30 degrees exactly anyway, they only occupy the 30 degree sections, but can stretch beyond them, or be smaller than them.

Last edited by nemus_amaranthi; 08-10-2013 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 11-10-2013, 03:28 PM   #2
valens
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Hello,

you might want to read some ancient texts before you disseminate your opinion. I recommend MUL.APIN as a source text and Sachs' Babylonian Horoscopes as resource of the earliest recorded horoscopes we have.

Also you seem to be confused about precession in general, and in particular about the Tropical measurement system and the Sidereal zodiac. Honestly the mistakes and misunderstandings are too numerous to mention them all but biggest would be that the "signs" as you call them don't match up with the constellations every year at spring time, the Vernal Equinox is currently in the constellation of Pisces it doesn't move into the constellation Aries.

Can you explain your premise that "if the stars move...then it emanates from nothing"? Can you also explain the difference between "house" and "sign"? That wasn't clear to me and since you seem to be using the words interchangably for both the Tropical and Sidrereal measurements, it is confusing.

You seem to be conflating the Tropical measurement system and the Sidereal zodiac when talking of Ophiuchus. If those signs you were drawing out were from the Tropical zodiac, then Ophiuchus is not where you say it is. Do you understand precession and the difference between the Equinox-based system and the stellar system?

The ancients never used those stars to name the Tropical sections! The Tropical sections are named that because of the constellations! The Babylonians saw the constellations as the bodies of the gods, they never named the Tropical 30 degree sections first! I think you need to go back and think about what you are saying.

Just for clarity, here is an image of the sky taken from a sky-viewing program. I have circled the Alpha stars of the 3 relevant constellations. I hope you can see why Ophiuchus was not considered in the 360/12 system - ignoring the fact that the constellation was not even present in the Babylonian astrosophy as it is most likely Greek in origin (the red line is the Ecliptic:



Twelve is a very important number in Babylonian astrosophy and in the way they counted the passage of time and worshipped their gods, hence them using 12 ecliptic constellations to form their measurement system.
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Old 15-11-2013, 06:26 PM   #3
nemus_amaranthi
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Quote:
Also you seem to be confused about precession in general, and in particular about the Tropical measurement system and the Sidereal zodiac. Honestly the mistakes and misunderstandings are too numerous to mention them all but biggest would be that the "signs" as you call them don't match up with the constellations every year at spring time, the Vernal Equinox is currently in the constellation of Pisces it doesn't move into the constellation Aries.
I know, I was talking about when the measurements were calibrated, not how they are now, I know that precession has moved Pisces into the first sign, however the angle is still that of the first house that we call Aries, using a natural house system.

Aries = House 1 etc, however Pisces occupies house 1 now in Spring, however the dignities of Aries are still applicable in house one, the zodiac is like a kaleidoscope, so there will be different signs in the houses, however the houses stay where they are.



Quote:
Can you explain your premise that "if the stars move...then it emanates from nothing"? Can you also explain the difference between "house" and "sign"? That wasn't clear to me and since you seem to be using the words interchangably for both the Tropical and Sidrereal measurements, it is confusing.
I was talking about the argument from skeptics, not what astrologers or myself believes - that the stars have no influence, it is the angle that has the influence, as the angles of the planets to the ecliptic as it relates to the equator are unchangeable.

Example - house one will always be 0-30 degrees, however it can be occupied by any given sign, or constellation without them being completely the same - (i.e. House 1 occupied by Aries and Constellation Aries.)

Signs are the 30 degree sections around the ecliptic that the Sun appears to move along during the year and due to the rotation of the earth, the signs also appear to move a full 360 degrees each day.

The houses are the sections that relate from the ecliptic to the equator down on earth and they stay the same, however they can be occupied by different signs due to the rotation of the earth and they also can be of different sizes, depending on the time of the year and day and the location of the observer on the Earth, some houses can be occiped by one sign, or two or three, these are called interceptions, which I have explained in another video.


Quote:
You seem to be conflating the Tropical measurement system and the Sidereal zodiac when talking of Ophiuchus. If those signs you were drawing out were from the Tropical zodiac, then Ophiuchus is not where you say it is. Do you understand precession and the difference between the Equinox-based system and the stellar system?
I didn't say where it is, I was taking it from where 13 sign astrologers say it is.

As we know, the constellations can be bigger or much smaller than the signs that they are to occupy, the sun can be in a constellation that is not the sign it is in at all.


Quote:
The ancients never used those stars to name the Tropical sections! The Tropical sections are named that because of the constellations! The Babylonians saw the constellations as the bodies of the gods, they never named the Tropical 30 degree sections first! I think you need to go back and think about what you are saying.
I know they didn't. The signs were totally different when they did it. The video is talking about the calibrated process - how we perceive it now and how the 12 house system is the only one that needs to be used, 13 sign astrology is unnecessary.

Last edited by nemus_amaranthi; 15-11-2013 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 16-11-2013, 08:13 PM   #4
valens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemus_amaranthi View Post
I know, I was talking about when the measurements were calibrated, not how they are now, I know that precession has moved Pisces into the first sign, however the angle is still that of the first house that we call Aries, using a natural house system.

Aries = House 1 etc, however Pisces occupies house 1 now in Spring, however the dignities of Aries are still applicable in house one, the zodiac is like a kaleidoscope, so there will be different signs in the houses, however the houses stay where they are.
You're mixing terms again. A 'house' is not the same as a Tropical sign which you are saying it is.

The measurements were never 'calibrated', they were two completely different things. The Tropical measurement and the Sidereal one both originated in Babylon pretty early on and both were used for different things. The Tropical measurement was a calendar (with the Equinox at the 15th day of the first month, Nisanu which was said to be "like Aries" by the second Hermes.)

What you mean is that the months stay where they are relative to the Equinox, not the signs or houses.


Quote:
Example - house one will always be 0-30 degrees, however it can be occupied by any given sign, or constellation without them being completely the same - (i.e. House 1 occupied by Aries and Constellation Aries.)
See above: houses are not months.

Quote:
Signs are the 30 degree sections around the ecliptic that the Sun appears to move along during the year and due to the rotation of the earth, the signs also appear to move a full 360 degrees each day.
Yes, but the 'signs' are the constellations, not the months of the Tropical measurement. The term 'sign' comes from the Greek zoidon, the root of which is zoion meaning 'image' or 'living thing' - the constellations are those images and the Babylonians especially, would say that they are living beings, bodies of the Gods, to be precise.

Quote:
The houses are the sections that relate from the ecliptic to the equator down on earth and they stay the same, however they can be occupied by different signs due to the rotation of the earth and they also can be of different sizes, depending on the time of the year and day and the location of the observer on the Earth, some houses can be occiped by one sign, or two or three, these are called interceptions, which I have explained in another video.
Yes, quadrant-based house systems can have more than one sign, or Tropical month if you are using either Ptolemy's or the earlier Babylonian measurement based upon the Equinox.




Quote:
I didn't say where it is, I was taking it from where 13 sign astrologers say it is.

As we know, the constellations can be bigger or much smaller than the signs that they are to occupy, the sun can be in a constellation that is not the sign it is in at all.
Do you know the difference between the Ptolemaic Tropical zodiac and the Babylonian Fixed (Sidereal) one?


Quote:
I know they didn't. The signs were totally different when they did it. The video is talking about the calibrated process - how we perceive it now and how the 12 house system is the only one that needs to be used, 13 sign astrology is unnecessary.
The signs haven't been changed since the Babylonians conceived them in the 9th century BC. You seem to be suggesting that the Greeks (?) set the Stellar Zodiac to line up to the Tropical measurement system way back when, am I correct in thinking that?
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