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Old 05-04-2016, 07:30 PM   #21
alisa2
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Originally Posted by rogerdun View Post
Nothing what you have written alters the fact that a cheque is not legal tender.
A cheque is legal tender. Maybe you have a different definition of legal tender. If so, please post it. If the cheque is no good, then of course it is no longer legal tender.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/fs_m_ch_13.html

Peter L. Bernstein, in A Primer On Money, Banking and Gold says:

"The trick in the Federal Reserve notes is that the Federal reserve banks lose no cash when they pay out this currency to the member banks. Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in anything except what the Government calls ‘legal tender’--that is, money that a creditor must be willing to accept from a debtor in payment of sums owed him. But since all Federal Reserve notes are themselves declared by law to be legal money, they are really redeemable only in themselves . . .they are an irredeemable obligation issued by the Federal Reserve Banks."91
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Old 05-04-2016, 07:37 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by rogerdun View Post
Nothing what you have written alters the fact that a cheque is not legal tender.
Does not compute, DDDDOOOOOOEEEESSSS NNOOTT CCOMMPPUUTEE


How can this be legal tender?



How can this be legal? Where is the wet signature, all I see is promissory note.

A promise is a nonu, to expect something,non legal. A promise is a verb: put into a contract with a wet signature.

hang on, oh shit where is doctor who when you need him!

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Old 05-04-2016, 07:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by alisa2 View Post
A cheque is legal tender. Maybe you have a different definition of legal tender. If so, please post it. If the cheque is no good, then of course it is no longer legal tender.
A good cheque is not legal tender.
A bad cheque is not legal tender.
http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/pol...d291076da38536
Quote:
Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.

In practice this means that although the silver UK coins we produce in denominations of £5, £20, £50 and £100 are approved as legal tender, they have been designed as limited edition collectables or gifts and will not be entering general circulation. As such, UK shops and banks will not accept them.

The amounts for legal tender are stated below.

Notes:

In England and Wales the £5, £10, £20 and £50 notes are legal tender for payment of any amount. However, they are not legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Coins:

Coins are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amount:

£100 - for any amount

£50 - for any amount

£20 - for any amount

£5 (Crown) - for any amount

£2 - for any amount

£1 - for any amount

50p - for any amount not exceeding £10

25p (Crown) - for any amount not exceeding £10

20p - for any amount not exceeding £10

10p - for any amount not exceeding £5

5p - for any amount not exceeding £5

2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

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Old 05-04-2016, 07:50 PM   #24
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Further to my previous post:
http://www.chequeandcredit.co.uk/che...to_cheques/The Law Relating to Cheques

Quote:
The definition and use of cheques are covered by The Bills of Exchange Act 1882, and the Cheques Acts of 1957 and 1992. The Bills of Exchange Act 1882 defines a cheque as a written order from an account holder instructing their bank to pay a specified sum of money to one or more named beneficiaries.

Ever since their inception it has been the case that cheques are not a promise to pay by the bank, but a request to the bank that it pays, out of the funds deposited by the customer, an amount to a third party. This means that the bank will only honour the cheque if the account holder has sufficient funds to meet it or it can be covered by an agreed overdraft or other line of credit. Cheques are not legal tender and never have been. Even today, if you owe someone money they are not obliged to accept a cheque. Instead a creditor is entitled to be paid in legal tender and can refuse payment in any other form.
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Old 05-04-2016, 07:55 PM   #25
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But since all Federal Reserve notes are themselves declared by law to be legal money,
I wonder why that is. Made to be legal tender when they are not.

1933, all monies are backed by (negotiable debt instrument)
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Old 05-04-2016, 07:56 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by rogerdun View Post
A good cheque is not legal tender.
A bad cheque is not legal tender.
http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/pol...d291076da38536
Oh my gould

He's only gone to the royal mint website.

THINK FOR YOURSELF!
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Old 05-04-2016, 08:18 PM   #27
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Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.
It doesn't define what legal tender is. What it is is legal mumbo-jumbo. It states that both parties are free to accept any form of payment...according to their wishes. Is that true? Has a UK creditor ever agreed to accept anything you want to offer as payment of debt? How bout the Council Tax people?
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Old 05-04-2016, 08:25 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by rogerdun View Post
Further to my previous post:
http://www.chequeandcredit.co.uk/che...to_cheques/The Law Relating to Cheques
42 Non-acceptance.

When a bill is duly presented for acceptance and is not accepted within the customary time, the person presenting it must treat it as dishonoured by non-acceptance. If he do not, the holder shall lose his right of recourse against the drawer and indorsers.

This means the person has to accept the cheque, but the beauty is, the cheque is good in weRe bank.

43 Dishonour by non-acceptance and its consequences.

(1)A bill is dishonoured by non-acceptance—

(a)when it is duly presented for acceptance, and such an acceptance as is prescribed by this Act is refused or cannot be obtained; or

(b)when presentment for acceptance is excused and the bill is not accepted.

(2)Subject to the provisions of this Act when a bill is dishonoured by non-acceptance, an immediate right of recourse against the drawer and indorsers accrues to the holder, and no presentment for payment is necessary.
44 Duties as to qualified acceptances.


(1)The holder of a bill may refuse to take a qualified acceptance, and if he does not obtain an unqualified acceptance may treat the bill as dishonoured by non-acceptance.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by alisa2 View Post
It doesn't define what legal tender is.
Yes it does.
Quote:
What it is is legal mumbo-jumbo.
Incorrect. It lists exactly what legal tender is.
Quote:
It states that both parties are free to accept any form of payment...according to their wishes.
That is correct. If both parties agree. If you and I agree to trade using widgets we are free to do so. But that does not make widgets legal tender. No one else is compelled to accept widgets.
Quote:
Is that true?
Yes, as I have just described.
Quote:
Has a UK creditor ever agreed to accept anything you want to offer as payment of debt? How bout the Council Tax people?
Any creditor can demand to be paid in legal tender. If you check the link to the royal mint it lists what is legal tender.

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Old 05-04-2016, 09:28 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by gremlin View Post
42 Non-acceptance.

When a bill is duly presented for acceptance and is not accepted within the customary time, the person presenting it must treat it as dishonoured by non-acceptance. If he do not, the holder shall lose his right of recourse against the drawer and indorsers.

This means the person has to accept the cheque, but the beauty is, the cheque is good in weRe bank.

43 Dishonour by non-acceptance and its consequences.

(1)A bill is dishonoured by non-acceptance—

(a)when it is duly presented for acceptance, and such an acceptance as is prescribed by this Act is refused or cannot be obtained; or

(b)when presentment for acceptance is excused and the bill is not accepted.

(2)Subject to the provisions of this Act when a bill is dishonoured by non-acceptance, an immediate right of recourse against the drawer and indorsers accrues to the holder, and no presentment for payment is necessary.
44 Duties as to qualified acceptances.


(1)The holder of a bill may refuse to take a qualified acceptance, and if he does not obtain an unqualified acceptance may treat the bill as dishonoured by non-acceptance.
A cheque is presented for acceptance when the payee's bank presents the cheque to the drawer's bank (the drawee) for clearance. If the cheque is not accepted, in other words it bounces, recourse is against the drawer.
gremlin, you are destroying your own argument, the link you have provided states:
Quote:
an immediate right of recourse against the drawer
Do you even understand who the drawer is?
I guess not.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:33 PM   #31
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To assist gremlin's confusion:
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/D/Drawer.aspx
Quote:
Drawer Definition: The person who signs a check to his or her bank ordering the latter to pay the face amount of the check to the payee.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:38 PM   #32
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Unlike some threads where a degree of belief or even willful stupidity is involved, this one is not harmless food for thought stuff...
Encouraging already financially strained people to dig the hole they are in even deeper is at the very best deeply immoral, if not illegal.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:40 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by sevenhills View Post
Encouraging already financially strained people to dig the hole they are in even deeper is at the very best deeply immoral, if not illegal.
It is definitely immoral.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:44 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by rogerdun View Post
It is definitely immoral.
It is...
It is the step the person then takes that is possibly illegal - Knowingly passing or attempting to,dud cheques is fraud, and fraud seems to carry a high penalty.

Whether the system is wrong is not the point, the system is how it is and breaking the law as advocated here is not to be encouraged however you look at it.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:52 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by rogerdun View Post
A cheque is presented for acceptance when the payee's bank presents the cheque to the drawer's bank (the drawee) for clearance. If the cheque is not accepted, in other words it bounces, recourse is against the drawer.
gremlin, you are destroying your own argument, the link you have provided states:

Do you even understand who the drawer is?
I guess not.
Blacks law second: DRAWER The person (weRe bank) making a bill of exchange and addressing it to the drawee. Now if the act said drawee you would be correct, as it is the drawer, it is weRe bank. So this means that the holder has recourse from the drawer, ie weRe bank.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:53 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by rogerdun View Post
Erm, comes down to defintions. I went with blacks law.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/drawer

Drawer

DRAWER, contracts. The party who makes a bill of exchange.

This means simply that the cheque if you want your money, phone up and get your digits as money never will exist, it is impossible.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:57 PM   #37
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Erm, comes down to defintions. I went with blacks law.
Well, for a start Black's is American. It is not an English law dictionary.
And then, of course, a law dictionary is not law. A law dictionary is not a legal authority.
Out of interest how did Black's define "drawer"?
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:59 PM   #38
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DRAWER, contracts. The party who makes a bill of exchange.
Again you have just destroyed your own argument. The creator of a bill of exchange is the party who is instructing the drawee to pay the payee.
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:04 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by rogerdun View Post
Well, for a start Black's is American. It is not an English law dictionary.
And then, of course, a law dictionary is not law. A law dictionary is not a legal authority.
Out of interest how did Black's define "drawer"?
And you quoted from an american website.

DRAWER, contracts. The party who makes a bill of exchange.


And money is not legal, it is promissory notes, not legal. but when signed is legal tender, ie m a cheque.

Money is created via a legal system.
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:06 PM   #40
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DRAWER The person (weRe bank) making a bill of exchange and addressing it to the drawee. Now if the act said drawee you would be correct, as it is the drawer, it is weRe bank. So this means that the holder has recourse from the drawer, ie weRe bank.
Wow, gremlin. I cannot believe you have got it so wrong.
The drawer is the writer of the cheque.
The drawee is the drawer's bank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque
Follow that link and scroll down to "Parts of a cheque"
Then look at the picture on the right.
Look at No 5 and No 6.

Last edited by rogerdun; 05-04-2016 at 10:09 PM.
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