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Old 09-08-2010, 07:28 AM   #41
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Actually anyone above a 33degree mason is a muslim, so why would they stop these wars when they infact want what the koran states..the world to be Islamic.
That's an absurd assumption on your part with absolutely no evidence to support at all. Having a degree where they learn certain philosophies hidden within Islam doesn't make them Muslim. They do the same thing for philosophies and allegories in all religions. After all, all religons are based in the same core philosophies that Masonry uses.

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because the west doens't have a clue about islam, they even believe allah is God
Allah isn't really a name, it literally means "The God", hence why Jews & Christians use the word and worship Allah too. You're struggling worse and worse with your agenda every day.
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:40 AM   #42
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That's an absurd assumption on your part with absolutely no evidence to support at all. Having a degree where they learn certain philosophies hidden within Islam doesn't make them Muslim. They do the same thing for philosophies and allegories in all religions. After all, all religons are based in the same core philosophies that Masonry uses.



Allah isn't really a name, it literally means "The God", hence why Jews & Christians use the word and worship Allah too. You're struggling worse and worse with your agenda every day.
allah is satan the great deciever and destroyer and the most proud one.
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:47 AM   #43
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allah is satan the great deciever and destroyer and the most proud one.
Oh my, and all this time I thought you were a Christian! Now you're saying that God is actually Satan? But you also say that Jesus is God.. So you're saying that Jesus is Satan!?
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Old 09-08-2010, 08:13 AM   #44
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Oh my, and all this time I thought you were a Christian! Now you're saying that God is actually Satan? But you also say that Jesus is God.. So you're saying that Jesus is Satan!?



is english not your mother tongue.
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Old 09-08-2010, 11:46 AM   #45
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allah is satan the great deciever and destroyer and the most proud one.
So is the christian and jewish god. There is no difference. All 3 worship satan, aka Yahweh, aka Allah, aka God.

Get a grip.
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:03 PM   #46
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So is the christian and jewish god. There is no difference. All 3 worship satan, aka Yahweh, aka Allah, aka God.

Get a grip.
get an education

whys that, cause mo the moon worshipper said so..

prove they are the same.
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:18 PM   #47
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get an education

whys that, cause mo the moon worshipper said so..

prove they are the same.
Why? Because something doesn't fit into your narrow christian nutter picture?
Why are the 3 book religions called the 3 abrahamic religions again?

I have made points on this thread, both of you nutters chose to ignore it.

Oh the irony, when you talk about education.

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Old 09-08-2010, 05:22 PM   #48
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Why? Because something doesn't fit into your narrow christian nutter picture?
Why are the 3 book religions called the 3 abrahamic religions again?

I have made points on this thread, both of you nutters chose to ignore it.

Oh the irony, when you talk about education.
so you can't prove it..

thought as much
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:04 PM   #49
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so you can't prove it..

thought as much
I have not seen any proof of your wild BS claims so far.

Why are the 3 book religions called the 3 abrahamic religions again?

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Old 09-08-2010, 06:44 PM   #50
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is english not your mother tongue.
what!? You're the one that said "God is Satan, the great deciever"

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whys that, cause mo the moon worshipper said so..

prove they are the same
Because Allah literally means "the one God". Saying that the Moon God is the same as the one God just because both titles use the word 'God' is absurd. With the same logic, God is also Osirus, Isis, and 100 other dieties because they're all 'Gods'.
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Old 09-08-2010, 08:07 PM   #51
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I have not seen any proof of your wild BS claims so far.

Why are the 3 book religions called the 3 abrahamic religions again?
Only Muslims and non believers, believe we worship the same God.

Do you know of the Sabeans, they are mentioned in both the Bible and Koran.

take a look at their history, Mohammed used to be one.

Their rituals are identical to Islam.

I'll link stuff to you, if your interested
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Old 09-08-2010, 08:26 PM   #52
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Only Muslims and non believers, believe we worship the same God.
Anybody without a bigoted agenda knows you worship the same God, whether you agree with their prophets interpretations or not.

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Do you know of the Sabeans, they are mentioned in both the Bible and Koran.

take a look at their history, Mohammed used to be one.

Their rituals are identical to Islam.

I'll link stuff to you, if your interested
The Ephraimites are mentioned in the Bible too - as heirs to Israel. They assimilated with the Arabs 6 centuries BC. Hence the links between Judaism and Islam.

Also, you're probably confusing the Sabians with the Harrians, who stole the name 3 centuries after Muhammad. The Sabians mentioned in the Quran are likely represented today by the Mandaeans.

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Old 09-08-2010, 08:30 PM   #53
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i am only trying to point out that from day one to today that islam needs to be led by god and not by mohamid. or by rules and laws man added to it
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Old 09-08-2010, 08:48 PM   #54
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Only Muslims and non believers, believe we worship the same God.

Do you know of the Sabeans, they are mentioned in both the Bible and Koran.

take a look at their history, Mohammed used to be one.

Their rituals are identical to Islam.

I'll link stuff to you, if your interested
Not really, I am sorry.
Since its simply clear that all 3 share the same source and roots.
Take the NT (and its perversion eg KJ bible, Concil of Nicea) of course out of this equation. Thats another topic.

Still the simple question remains:

Which religion fanatically murdered more people until today? Christians, Jews or Muslims?
How would you rank the three?
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:42 PM   #55
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Not really, I am sorry.
Since its simply clear that all 3 share the same source and roots.
Take the NT (and its perversion eg KJ bible, Concil of Nicea) of course out of this equation. Thats another topic.

Still the simple question remains:

Which religion fanatically murdered more people until today? Christians, Jews or Muslims?
How would you rank the three?

Difference is in Christianty, Jesus doesn't tell us to kill in his name, or Gods name, so can Jesus be blamed for men who use Gods name to kill?
Christianty as never been about converting the world, only preaching the gospel and giving people a choice.

Islam kills because their god tells them to...so anyone who does kill in Allahs name are only doing what they are told to do. The Koran states the whole world must become Islamic. Allah demands it.

Looking back at Israels passed no it isn't perfect, whos is?
But the Jews have paid heavly for their past mistakes.
And now they are back in Israel thanks to hitler.

Today Messiaic Jews do not kill in the name of Christianity..And Jews today have a short time to go before they as a whole, well the remenant of them, that will be left after this final battle..then they also will know Christ.

Mohammed tried to preach to the Jews and Christians they laughed at him, so where killed or weak ones converted..

The only ones who took any real notice of Mohammed, where the pagan cults who already worshipped the moon god lllah..same ramadam, same praying to the kabah etc nothing really had to be change.

All Mohammed had to do was get rid of the daughters of the moon god, and change the name slighty, same with pagan Rome and many churches even today, all they did was fit Jesus around their pagan beliefs. the sun god...bal.

Christ warns the churches in Revelation what will happen to each of them for bringing in pagan worship into his church.


Also if you study the koran against the bible esp the end times they are completly opposite, yet they both fit together perfectly..

eg their mehdi will rule for 7 years, whereas the bible tells us it is the anti christ will rule for 7 years, their jesus a muslim will rule with the medhi and kill all christians and Jews unless they convert to islam. I think it's a given that the rest of the world will accept Islam. Only these two faith will not bow down to allah and mohammed knew that. The bible states the world will follow this false prophet, all but Christians..who will be killed for not worshipping the beast.



The bible even tells us the reason Christ is going to return is because Jersulam will be divided, and after these 10 nations, who we now know to be Muslim nations, will join forces together and battle against the Jews....


I know this little info won't mean anything to you, because you see them all the same, but reading the differences from the two books, it's pretty clear that the two books are talking from opposite sides of the fence..

If it is the same god as Muslims and none believers think..what He going to do fight himself.
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:58 PM   #56
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i am only trying to point out that from day one to today that islam needs to be led by god and not by mohamid. or by rules and laws man added to it
Well the good news is according to al jazeera, 6 million Muslims are coming to Christ every year. And they are just the ones who are coming forward..many more Muslims live in fear but believe in Christ as their saviour.

Praise God
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Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:19 PM   #57
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Anybody without a bigoted agenda knows you worship the same God, whether you agree with their prophets interpretations or not.



The Ephraimites are mentioned in the Bible too - as heirs to Israel. They assimilated with the Arabs 6 centuries BC. Hence the links between Judaism and Islam.

Also, you're probably confusing the Sabians with the Harrians, who stole the name 3 centuries after Muhammad. The Sabians mentioned in the Quran are likely represented today by the Mandaeans.

Abd al-Rahman ‘ibn ‘Zayd (d.798 AD) wrote:
"The polytheists used to say of the prophet and his companions ‘these are the Sabians’ comparing them to them, because the Sabians who live Jaziartal-Mawsil (today known as Iraq) would say ‘there is no God but God’." (95)

Rabi’ah ‘ibn ‘Ubbad (who lived at the same time as Mohammed) wrote:
"I saw the prophet when I was a pagan. He was saying to the people, ‘if you want to save yourselves, accept that there is no God but Allah’ At this moment I noticed a man behind him saying ‘he is a sabi.’ When I asked somebody who he was he told me he was ‘Abu Lahab, his uncle." (96)

Both ‘Ibn Jurayi (d. 767) and ‘Ata ‘ibn Abi Rabah (d.732) wrote:
"I saw the prophet when I was a pagan. He was saying to the people, ‘if you want to save yourselves, accept that there is no God but Allah’ At this moment I noticed a man behind him saying ‘he is a sabi.’ When I asked somebody who he was he told me he was ‘Abu Lahab, his uncle' Of the relationship between the Sabians who lived in Sawad (in Iraq ) and Mohammed it is mention that the polytheists of Mecca were heard to say of Mohammed "he has become a Sabian." (97)

‘Ibn Jurayi (who lived in the 8th century) wrote:
" He (Mohammed) is a Sabian" (98)

‘Abd al-Rahman ‘ibn Zayd (d798 AD) wrote:
The prophet and his companions are referred to as "these are the Sabians" comparing Mohammed to the Sabians (99)

1. The word Sabean (Sabian)
2. The etymology of the word sabiun
3. The Arab writers before 832 to 833 AD
4. The Arab writers after 833 AD
5. Conclusion

1. The word Sabian (Sabaean)

The whole debate on who the Sabians are is caused because of the following verses from the Qu'ran, the Holy Book of Islam:

2:62 "Those who believe, and the Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabeans, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." (87)


5: 69 "Those who believe and the Jews and the Sabaeans [Sabians] and this Christians— whoever believes in Allah and the last day anddoes good they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve." (88)


2: 17 "Those who believe and those how are the Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians [Zoroastrians] and those who set up gods (with Allah)-- Allah will decide between them on the day of resurrection for God is a Witness over all things." (89)

Below is a list of the early Islamic writers and their views on who or what the Sabians are.


‘Abd ‘Allah ‘ibn al-‘Abbas (lived about 650 AD) wrote:
The religion of the Sabians is a sect of Christianity. (114)

Ziyad ‘ibn ‘Abihi (d. 672 AD) who was the governor of Iraq during the first Umayyad caliph Mur awiyah wrote:
The Sabians believed in prophets and prayed five times daily. (115)

Mujahid ‘ibn Jarir (d 722 AD) wrote:
The Sabians have no distinctive religion and is somewhere between Judaism and Magianism. (116)

‘Ibn Abi Nujayh (d749) wrote:
The Sabians were between Judaism and Magianism. (117)

Suddi (d745 AD) also wrote:
The Sabian religion is between Judaism and Magianism. (118)

Hasan al-Basri (d728 AD) wrote:
They read the zabur (Psalms) and pray in the direction of the qiblah. He also wrote that the Sabian religion resembled the Magians and worshipped angels. (119)

Wahb ‘ibn Munabbih (d 728-732 AD) who was originally from Iran wrote:
The Sabians believe "there is no God but God" and that they do not have canonical law. (120)

‘Ata ‘ibn ‘Abi Rabah (d732 AD) wrote:
The Sabians live in “Sawad” and are not identical with the Magians, Christians, or Jews. (121)

‘Ibn Jurayi (who lived in the 8th century) also wrote:
The Sabians are in Sawad and are between the Magians, Christians, or Jews. He also wrote that the polytheists said of Mohammed “He is a Sabian”. (122)

Qatadah ‘ibn Di’amah (d736 AD) wrote:
The Sabians worshipped angels, read zabur, prayed five ritual prayers. In addition he writes that they pray to the sun. (123)

‘Abdul al-Zanad (d.747 AD) wrote:
The Sabians are from “Kutha” in Iraq, they believe in prophets, fast 30 days in a year, and pray 5 times daily towards Yaman. (124)

‘Abu Hanifah (d.767 AD) who is the founder of the Hanafite School of Islamic Law wrote:
The Sabians read zabur and are between Judaism and Christianity. (125)

‘Awza’ (d.773 AD) a representative of the ancient Syrian school of religious studies wrote:
The Sabians are between Judaism and Christianity. (126)

Malik ‘ibn ‘Anas (d795) wrote:
The Sabians are between Judaism and Christianity and they have no scriptures. (127)

Khalil ‘ibn Ahmad (d. 786-787 AD) who was in Basra before his death, wrote:
The Sabians believe they belong to the prophet Noah, they read zabur, and their religion looks like Christianity. He also states that they worship the angels. (128)

‘Abd al-Rahman ‘ibn Zayd (d. 798 AD) wrote:
The Sabians say that their religion is a religion to itself and they live near Mosul (jazirat al-mawsil) and believe in only one God. He also wrote that they have no prophet, no scriptures, and no cult yet their main belief is “there is no god but God”. He also remarked that the Sabians did not believe in the Prophet Mohammed, yet the polytheists were known to say of the Prophets and his companions “these are the Sabians” comparing them to them. (129)

‘Ahmad ‘ibn Hanbal (d. 855 AD) the ‘Iman of Baghdad wrote:
The Sabians are a sect of Christianity or Judaism. (130)

In conclusion the Sabians of the Qur’an as described were of a monotheistic belief system, which resemble Judaism, Christianity and Magianism and were located in Iraq around the areas of Mosul and Kutha. These Sabians also existed before Mohammed and it is claimed that Mohammed was at some time one of the Sabians.

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The term Sabians of Harran only appears in the late 9th century. Before this date they were referred to only as Chaldeans or Harrians or Nabataeans. The later Moslem writers describe (after the Caliph al-Mamun THE DATE 832-833 AD) describe these Sabians as people who worship planets, idols, stars, and are located in the city of Harran. The Harrians adopted the name Sabians for two reasons. The first it was the Harrians who wanted to be protected from Islam because the Harrians believed in pagan rituals including HUMAN SACRIFICE. Reason two is that they were active in politics (unlike the Mandaeans) and were known to the courts of Baghdad. Thus they were able to keep portraying the lie of being the Sabians of the Qur’an. Yet the true Sabians were never forgotten. At the same time the Arab writers wrote of the Sabians of Harran they also referred to a second set of Sabians by various names and set them to live in Iraq as monotheist with a book and prophets.
No I'm not confusing the Sabians of Harran


The Sabean pagan rite of fasting began with the appearance Ramadan is the ninth and holiest month of the Muslim calendar. It begins and ends with the sighting of the crescent moon. Robert Morey notes:
“The dominant religion that had grown very powerful just before Muhammad’s time was that of the Sabeans’…They used a lunar calendar to regulate their religious rites. For example, a month of fasting was regulated by the phases of a crescent moon and did not cease until the crescent moon reappeared. This would later be adopted as one of the five pillars of Islam.”
- Robert Morey, The Islamic Invasion (Las Vegas, NV: Christian Scholars Press, 1992), p.42.



Sa´bi`an
a. 1. Of or pertaining to Saba in Arabia, celebrated for producing aromatic plants.
2. Relating to the religion of Saba, or to the worship of the heavenly bodies.
n. 1. An adherent of the Sabian religion; a worshiper of the heavenly bodies
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Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:25 PM   #58
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Difference is in Christianty, Jesus doesn't tell us to kill in his name, or Gods name, so can Jesus be blamed for men who use Gods name to kill?
Christianty as never been about converting the world, only preaching the gospel and giving people a choice.

Islam kills because their god tells them to...so anyone who does kill in Allahs name are only doing what they are told to do. The Koran states the whole world must become Islamic. Allah demands it.

Looking back at Israels passed no it isn't perfect, whos is?
But the Jews have paid heavly for their past mistakes.
And now they are back in Israel thanks to hitler.

Today Messiaic Jews do not kill in the name of Christianity..And Jews today have a short time to go before they as a whole, well the remenant of them, that will be left after this final battle..then they also will know Christ.

Mohammed tried to preach to the Jews and Christians they laughed at him, so where killed or weak ones converted..

The only ones who took any real notice of Mohammed, where the pagan cults who already worshipped the moon god lllah..same ramadam, same praying to the kabah etc nothing really had to be change.

All Mohammed had to do was get rid of the daughters of the moon god, and change the name slighty, same with pagan Rome and many churches even today, all they did was fit Jesus around their pagan beliefs. the sun god...bal.

Christ warns the churches in Revelation what will happen to each of them for bringing in pagan worship into his church.


Also if you study the koran against the bible esp the end times they are completly opposite, yet they both fit together perfectly..

eg their mehdi will rule for 7 years, whereas the bible tells us it is the anti christ will rule for 7 years, their jesus a muslim will rule with the medhi and kill all christians and Jews unless they convert to islam. I think it's a given that the rest of the world will accept Islam. Only these two faith will not bow down to allah and mohammed knew that. The bible states the world will follow this false prophet, all but Christians..who will be killed for not worshipping the beast.



The bible even tells us the reason Christ is going to return is because Jersulam will be divided, and after these 10 nations, who we now know to be Muslim nations, will join forces together and battle against the Jews....


I know this little info won't mean anything to you, because you see them all the same, but reading the differences from the two books, it's pretty clear that the two books are talking from opposite sides of the fence..

If it is the same god as Muslims and none believers think..what He going to do fight himself.


http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...8&postcount=19
In the name of 'god' carrying the crucifix with jesus christ ahead.


Why don't you try to answer?
If you don't want to answer, then say so.

I'll give you a clue to the ranking, 'christianity' is leading with a huge gap behind.

What bible do you refer to? I guess nasty KJ version?

Do you agree, that christianity has been perverted and corrupted? Jesus real teachings are almost not present in NT. For that you have to read the Apogrypha. Concil of Nicea, I am sure you know what happened there.

You must be joking when stating that chrisianity has no clear missionary intention.
Whole Americas was practically forced to convert, given they survived the genocide the european conquerers perpetrated.

PS: I am christian as well, but we read very different bibles. I personally advanced my spirituality not my dogmatic view on the world.

Last edited by tinyint; 09-08-2010 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:36 PM   #59
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No I'm not confusing the Sabians of Harran
well sorry for assuming. It's a common and redundant argument that people use to equate Islam with moon worship.

The Sabians mentioned in the Quran were monotheists and even considered Christians by many, so I don't see what the point was in brining them up in relation to what God Islam worships. I don't doubt that Muhammad was somewhat inspired by Sabians, just like he was Judaism & Christianity. They're all monotheists worshipping the same God.

The so-called Sabians that are now equated with idol worship and astrology evolved from the Harrians.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:40 PM   #60
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well sorry for assuming. It's a common and redundant argument that people use to equate Islam with moon worship.

The Sabians mentioned in the Quran were monotheists and even considered Christians by many, so I don't see what the point was in brining them up in relation to what God Islam worships. I don't doubt that Muhammad was somewhat inspired by Sabians, just like he was Judaism & Christianity. They're all monotheists worshipping the same God.

The so-called Sabians that are now equated with idol worship and astrology evolved from the Harrians.
Well actually, I am not sure about the monothestic thingy, at least the Torah tells you of the "Elohim"(pl. Those who came from the heavens) Some very old original german bibles also correctly told of "gods".
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