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Old 18-01-2012, 02:32 PM   #1
syawedis
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Default Personal Income Tax

Okay, so here it is. Income Tax was the very reason I started looking into fmotl and thought it might bring out some good discussion.

First of all I'm confused; is Personal Income Tax:

Mandatory?
Voluntary?
Volunteer, or else?

Btw if it's mandatory, would someone be kind enough to point me to the section of income tax act that says it's mandatory? I'm sure it's in there, since I've heard it several times.

One of the biggest problems I have with Personal Income Tax is the claim that it pays for everything, but when you look at Revenue Reports you'll notice Personal Income Tax only brings in 1/3 of the entire revenue (here anyway). I've asked numerous agents what it pays for and they all have different answers, sometimes spouting off everything under the sun. My problem is the pooling of money together, with no way of tracking what goes where from where. People say if you don't pay income tax you're a free-loader, but do you know what it pays for? Can you show me the money trail in-and-out? For me it seems a little like this;

There is an insurance company and they provide:

Life insurance, Home insurance, Auto insurance, Travel insurance, Employment insurance, Imaginary insurance and whatever else.

But they decide to pool everything into one big insurance and say "If you don't pay the imaginary insurance we won't give you any of the other insurances. Oh, and, if you don't pay imaginary insurance, we will show up to seize your property".

You are only interested in Home and Auto insurance, so naturally, you would just find a different insurance company. But there isn't one. This over-priced and inefficient conglomerate of an insurance company is the only one you can use, which, apparently, is mandatory. What now?

My next issue is CPP.
I've asked the question several times, but I've yet to get an answer. I've even called the CPP hq and asked how to "opt-out" and they say I can't, it's mandatory, I have no choice.
Now, CPP doesn't affect society like they claim taxes do, it's an individual benefit, so how is it mandatory?
Is there a section in the income tax act that also outlines CPP being mandatory?

I'm sure there is a logical explanation for all these questions!

Keep it clean, please.
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Old 18-01-2012, 03:00 PM   #2
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Btw, my source was this link:
http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/govt01a-eng.htm

Feel free to post any links relative to income tax and the way they spend it.
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Old 18-01-2012, 03:33 PM   #3
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Let me first preface this, I am not defending the waste and unethical aspects of our present system.

Have you ever heard the expression there is only one taxpayer? In our system it doesn't matter how you structure your tax system the middle income earner will always bare a disproportionate burden. Tax companies more and they will just raise prices, lower wages or lay people off. Governments can not (will not) reduce their spending. If they were willing to do that we wouldn't have a National debt. In the end there may be twweaks we could do to try to make things more just, and we should try. Consumption taxes are not fair to a family of five on a middle income. I feel our system is like our democracy it is absolutely terrible but its the best option in an imperfect world.

For context I am a mid to high income earner that pays way too much in tax and don't feel like I get value either but I understand the need to contribute to my society. Please do not bring up the bank profits on debt or debt servicing expenses. Most canadian debt is owned by average Canadians in the form of Bonds and other investments so the interest and profit of the debt actually goes to real people in our society.
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Old 18-01-2012, 04:12 PM   #4
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I should also mention, what really bugs me about Personal Income Tax is that it's one of the only taxes that taxes you before you spend your money. Line crossed.

As I'm writing this my friend shows me this link:


This might not be relative to your country folks, but omg humanity plz wake up. if you want impact click on that link.
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Last edited by syawedis; 18-01-2012 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 18-01-2012, 04:22 PM   #5
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Yeah, I get the blank screen with :

Quote:
For over a decade, we have spent millions of hours building the largest encyclopedia in human history. Right now, the U.S. Congress is considering legislation that could fatally damage the free and open Internet. For 24 hours, to raise awareness, we are blacking out Wikipedia.
I don't know what that has to do with Personal Income Tax though

I do however understand why the founders of wiki are protesting.
There is a thread about it here:

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=197619
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Old 18-01-2012, 04:27 PM   #6
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Income tax is voluntary.

What return are you using? T1 personal?

It sucks to be you. Why are you using a personal corporate return?

Setup a incorporated family trust and use the T3 return for a trust.

Must have a registered corporation attached. In Canada it has a $200,000 tax exemption right off the bat for income.

Go see a good trust lawyer.
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Old 18-01-2012, 04:27 PM   #7
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jason I see what you're saying man, and I agree with you on many points. Even though you didn't exactly say it, the term "there is only one taxpayer" reminds me of averages, which I think is a core source of the problem. There are highs and there are lows and when you throw everyone in the middle it leaves one group of people better off and another group worst off. It's not ideal and it doesn't have to be that way. We just need stop accepting 'averages' as a good enough excuse for things.
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Old 18-01-2012, 04:45 PM   #8
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jason why won't they reduce their spending? Is it because they keep taxing us and we keep paying them?

sorry, weeman it does seem a bit off topic. But in a way it's connected in that, it goes to show what some governments are willing to pass as law, and what an impact it will have when people put their foots down.

hey willie, thanks for the advice I'll look into it. Sounds like fees fees and paperwork though. They gonna pay me for that?

How exactly do you mean voluntary? Do you mean the law reads that it's voluntary? I do not need to file, voluntary? What if I was pressured into file through threat of damage? Would that make the 'contract' void?

I honestly couldn't even tell you what form I filed with, though. But it sure felt dirty doing it.
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Old 18-01-2012, 04:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syawedis View Post

sorry, weeman it does seem a bit off topic. But in a way it's connected in that, it goes to show what some governments are willing to pass as law, and what an impact it will have when people put their foots down.
No need to apologise, I see it was painting a bigger picture.
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Old 18-01-2012, 04:55 PM   #10
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Because the RC is attached all expenses including income tax are either returned in full or become business deductions reducing income.

This involves complex tax reporting but which would you rather pay $$$$$$$$ income tax or about $3000.00 per year in professional accountant fees?

My family income is well into 6 figures, I will pay the lesser.
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Old 18-01-2012, 04:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syawedis View Post
jason why won't they reduce their spending? Is it because they keep taxing us and we keep paying them?
The government is in the business of getting re-elected. With the fractious nature of our society there are always many hands out for money. Those hands translate into votes. You will notice that whenever they talk about cutting spending its either to things with trivial costs in the big picture or the big bogeyman of health, education and old people. With that threat they know they can always get the support for continued high spending from enough people to get re-elected.
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Old 19-01-2012, 04:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willie1959 View Post
Because the RC is attached all expenses including income tax are either returned in full or become business deductions reducing income.

This involves complex tax reporting but which would you rather pay $$$$$$$$ income tax or about $3000.00 per year in professional accountant fees?

My family income is well into 6 figures, I will pay the lesser.
But if it's voluntary, why go through the hassles in the first place?

And, that might work for you, but I had $14k worth of property seized over a $3000 income tax "debt" because I couldn't afford it. I think it's disturbing that those who are better off will pay similar income tax than the middle-low income earners. Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should pay income tax (well, maybe government workers), and the truth is by making more money, you will naturally contribute more back in to society through spending.

How is income "voluntary" again?
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Old 19-01-2012, 04:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syawedis View Post
But if it's voluntary, why go through the hassles in the first place?
I'd guess he means "voluntary" in that he thinks it can be evaded.

Quote:
And, that might work for you, but I had $14k worth of property seized over a $3000 income tax "debt" because I couldn't afford it. I think it's disturbing that those who are better off will pay similar income tax than the middle-low income earners. Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should pay income tax (well, maybe government workers), and the truth is by making more money, you will naturally contribute more back in to society through spending.
First, high, middle and low income earners do pay different tax rates:
Quote:
15% on the first $42,707 of taxable income, +
22% on the next $42,707 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $42,707 up to $85,414), +
26% on the next $46,992 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $85,414 up to $132,406), +
29% of taxable income over $132,406.
Admittedly the spread isn't great (and the figures don't count the non-taxable personal allowance) - the rich should be paying more - but it's better than for consumption taxes like VAT. The poorer you are the larger a proportion of your income you pay in VAT. Worse, you pay VAT even if you aren't earning any money. If inequality disturbs you, then consumption tax should disturb you too.

Why do think state employees should be treated differently? One might as well just pay them less - the outcome is the same.
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Old 19-01-2012, 04:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aulus agerius View Post
I'd guess he means "voluntary" in that he thinks it can be evaded.


First, high, middle and low income earners do pay different tax rates:

Admittedly the spread isn't great (and the figures don't count the non-taxable personal allowance) - the rich should be paying more - but it's better than for consumption taxes like VAT. The poorer you are the larger a proportion of your income you pay in VAT. Worse, you pay VAT even if you aren't earning any money. If inequality disturbs you, then consumption tax should disturb you too.

Why do think state employees should be treated differently? One might as well just pay them less - the outcome is the same.
Voluntary Evasion? o .0

The difference between income tax and VAT: We don't need those materialistic things. If you can't afford VAT on something you won't buy it, right? So if you can't afford income tax, you what, just won't earn any money? Good one. Consumption tax doesn't really bother me much, although I can see the unbalance.

You didn't mention how higher income earners can afford much more educated and pricey accountants, who will, lower the tax owing considerably.

I did say maybe. But, I could justify income tax on only government workers simply because their getting paid with someone else's money. There is a difference between an employer earning his money, and one obtaining it from donations through threat(s) of damage.
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Old 19-01-2012, 05:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by syawedis View Post
The difference between income tax and VAT: We don't need those materialistic things. If you can't afford VAT on something you won't buy it, right? So if you can't afford income tax, you what, just won't earn any money? Good one. Consumption tax doesn't really bother me much, although I can see the unbalance.
That rather depends on what VAT is applied to. In the UK VAT applies to things you really do need. Like clothes, and most non-staple food items. Even then, the VAT on, say, a bar of chocolate, still means a hell of a lot more to the poor than to the rich, even though both ultimately get the same thing. As for people not buying things they don't need, in fact, they do.
If you don't earn anything you don't pay income tax. In a good tax system you should be able to earn enough to live on without paying income tax (alas, most tax systems are not like this; they fail to keep pace with inflation and the personal allowance before tax is too low)

Quote:
You didn't mention how higher income earners can afford much more educated and pricey accountants, who will, lower the tax owing considerably.
Yep, its true, the rich and powerful are more likely to avoid or evade taxes than the poor - all sorts of taxes, not just income taxes. True, consumption taxes are generally harder to avoid than most because of how they are collected, but there are still tricks there - buying overseas, things bought for "business use"... People always have and probably always will avoid taxes.

Quote:
I did say maybe. But, I could justify income tax on only government workers simply because their getting paid with someone else's money. There is a difference between an employer earning his money, and one obtaining it from donations through threat(s) of damage.
Fair enough; though I don't think that's a great distinction. I mean, people employed by charities are paid on donations. Employees of recent startups and even some operational companies will be paid from money lent to their employers.
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Old 19-01-2012, 05:25 PM   #16
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Fair enough; though I don't think that's a great distinction. I mean, people employed by charities are paid on donations. Employees of recent startups and even some operational companies will be paid from money lent to their employers.
Charities and Banks do not threaten damage / loss of property if you do not donate/take out a loan. That involves free will.

Even paying consumption taxes involves free will. There are options. Grow your own food. Or like you said, buy out of country. But you need money to do this. Therefore, you have to earn money.

I think we can all agree that not earning money is not an option, and there is no free will when it comes to Income Tax because there is no alternative. If you don't pay income tax they will take away your means of making a living.... Ironic. It's almost as if income tax only pays for the ability to earn a living. Which is why I don't understand how income tax payments are not a business expense.
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Last edited by syawedis; 19-01-2012 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 19-01-2012, 05:32 PM   #17
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Charities and Banks do not threaten damage / loss of property if you do not donate/take out a loan.
So instead of the fact that they are paid with "donated" money, you now prefer the distinction that the government generally obtains money by a system of compulsory taxation? But weren't we talking about who should pay income tax? So isn't the compulsory taxation thing circular? If the rest of society don't pay income tax, you can't justify income taxation of government employees by reference to compulsory income tax.
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Old 19-01-2012, 05:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by aulus agerius View Post
So instead of the fact that they are paid with "donated" money, you now prefer the distinction that the government generally obtains money by a system of compulsory taxation? But weren't we talking about who should pay income tax? So isn't the compulsory taxation thing circular? If the rest of society don't pay income tax, you can't justify income taxation of government employees by reference to compulsory income tax.
Ah, I didn't realize income tax was the only tax, my mistake.
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Old 19-01-2012, 05:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by syawedis View Post
Ah, I didn't realize income tax was the only tax, my mistake.
Well you seem to be satisfied with consumption taxes. True there are others, capital gains, corporate and no doubt more, but if we were talking about the tax system as it should in your view be constituted, you can't justify a government employee income tax by reference to taxes which you don't think should exist.
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Old 19-01-2012, 06:06 PM   #20
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No, I don't think anyone should have to pay income tax, but if there had to be a group of people I could justify government workers being the ones to face the burden. They are public servants, funded by the public.

Yes, there are other taxes aside from Personal Income Tax:

Corporate Income Tax
Mining and Loggin Taxes
General Propety taxes
Capital taxes
Other Property and related taxes
General sales tax
Amusement tax
Gasoline and motive fuel taxes
Alcohol and Tobacco taxes
Customs duties
Liqour taxes
Gambling taxes
Other consumption taxes
Health insurance premiums (because we get such a premium service, lol)
Payroll taxes
Motor vehicle licenses
Natural resource taxes and licenses
Miscellaneous taxes

All together, in Canada, without personal income tax , total tax revenue generated: $282BILLION.
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