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Old 18-05-2014, 04:40 PM   #1
doobyferkin
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Default "I do not recognize this court's right to try me"

Prosecutor "you may now offer whatever plea you wish to make in your defense"


Rearden "I have no defense."

"I do not recognize this court's right to try me."

"I do not recognize my action as a crime."


Prosecutor "Do you mean that you are refusing to obey the law?"


Rearden "No. I am complying with the law-to the letter. Your law holds that my life, my work and my property may be disposed of without my consent. Very well, you may now dispose of me without my participation in the matter. I will not play the part of defending myself, where no defense is possible, and I will not simulate the illusion of dealing with a tribunal of justice."


Prosecutor "The law requires you to submit a plea in your own defense."


Rearden "Do you mean that what you expect from me is some sort of voluntary action?"


Prosecutor "Yes."


Rearden "I volunteer nothing."


Prosecutor "But the law demands that the defendant's side be represented on the record."


Rearden "Do you mean that you need my help to make this procedure legal?"


Prosecutor "Well, no...yes...that is, to complete the form."


Rearden "I will not help you."



Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged - Part II Chapt IV pg 476 to 479
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Old 18-05-2014, 06:40 PM   #2
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Fortunately, the law depicted in Atlas Shrugged isn't the same as the law in the real world. Courts don't need the cooperation of defendants for trials to proceed.
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Old 18-05-2014, 07:00 PM   #3
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It doesn't matter what you plead anyway! The fuckers will still send you down, "innocent!" Even though every conscious being who represents the Human disgrace - knows you're innocent!
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Old 18-05-2014, 07:02 PM   #4
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you don't plead, you don't play and let them take you by force.
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Old 24-05-2014, 02:31 PM   #5
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It doesn't matter what you plead anyway! The fuckers will still send you down, "innocent!" Even though every conscious being who represents the Human disgrace - knows you're innocent!
Lay people- members of the public (magistrates or jury) decide guilt or innocence in English law. 'the fuckers' are your fellow citizens. So what you are saying that even though members of the public think you are innocent the same members of the public will still convict you? Further they do not even need to fully believe that you are innocent to find you not guilty, only satisfied that the prosecution has not proven its case beyond 'all reasonable doubt'

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Old 24-05-2014, 05:25 PM   #6
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Lay people- members of the public (magistrates or jury) decide guilt or innocence in English law. 'the fuckers' are your fellow citizens. So what you are saying that even though members of the public think you are innocent the same members of the public will still convict you? Further they do not even need to fully believe that you are innocent to find you not guilty, only satisfied that the prosecution has not proven its case beyond 'all reasonable doubt'
Maybe you should spend a few years behind bars - innocent! Then we'll see if you call them, "fuckers," or, "fellow citizens?"
Do you have any idea how many people are behind bars innocent? How about those who've been freed by the court of appeal?
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Old 24-05-2014, 07:43 PM   #7
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Do you have any idea how many people are behind bars innocent?
No one does. How can they know?
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Old 24-05-2014, 07:56 PM   #8
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No one does. How can they know?
Too many people! Too many inconsistencies! They won't admit to injustice on this scale - 'cause it would cost them too much in compensation!
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Old 24-05-2014, 08:01 PM   #9
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Too many people!
It could be no one, one person, the entire prison population or any number in between.
There is no way of knowing.

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Old 24-05-2014, 08:18 PM   #10
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It could be no one, one person, the entire prison population or any number in between.
There is no way of knowing.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Cont..._in_prison.php
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Old 24-05-2014, 10:09 PM   #11
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Fortunately, the law depicted in Atlas Shrugged isn't the same as the law in the real world. Courts don't need the cooperation of defendants for trials to proceed.
Yes they do, it's all based on Contract Law. If you don't dispute what they're saying they just jump on the opportunity to rob you of your freedom and/or money.
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Old 25-05-2014, 01:44 AM   #12
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Yes they do, it's all based on Contract Law. If you don't dispute what they're saying they just jump on the opportunity to rob you of your freedom and/or money.
We've heard it all before, and there still isn't a shred of evidence to support it. Countless people have tried it, and none of them have succeeded. The police still arrest them, the judges still convict them, and they're still sent to jail.
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Old 25-05-2014, 07:43 AM   #13
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We've heard it all before, and there still isn't a shred of evidence to support it. Countless people have tried it, and none of them have succeeded. The police still arrest them, the judges still convict them, and they're still sent to jail.
Yes I do know that but progress is being made by certain groups of people and we should all keep on hoping and trying. In the video below a group have set-up a free service to represent people in court. So you see, it can be done!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPxkrDrbAfs

http://www.albienlawadvocates.net/
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Old 25-05-2014, 08:06 AM   #14
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Yes they do, it's all based on Contract Law. If you don't dispute what they're saying they just jump on the opportunity to rob you of your freedom and/or money.
Mind explaining: If all law is contract and contract is civil law heard in civil courts with cases decided on the balance of probability (50% likely), then why are those charged with a criminal offence (which you claim is contract) tried in the criminal courts with guilt needing to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt (approx 99%- near certainty).

or even why the elements of a contract;intention to create legal agreement,offer, consideration and acceptance- differ from the elements of a crime; doing the criminal act, intending to do the criminal act and lack of a defence ie lawful excuse.

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Old 25-05-2014, 08:35 AM   #15
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pg 510 - "We much prefer to have things happen voluntarily."

if you are going to be "had" for something you see as being against your right then be "had" without your permission and become "redundant" and stop functioning the way "they" expect you to function..

pg 479 - "I will not help you to pretend that I have a chance. I will not help you to preserve an appearance of righteousness where rights are not recognized. I will not help you to preserve an appearance of rationality by entering a debate in which a gun is the final agreement. I will not help you to pretend that you are administering justice."

"and I will not help you out of it. If you chose to deal with men by means of compulsion, do so. But you will discover that you need the voluntary co-operation of your victims, in many more ways than you can see at present. And your victims should discover that it is their own volition - which you cannot force - that makes you possible. I choose to be consistent and I will obey you in the manner you demand. What ever you wish me to do, I will do it at the point of a gun. If you sentence me to jail, you will have to send armed men to carry me there - I will not volunteer to move. If you fine me, you will have to seize my property to collect the fine - I will not volunteer to pay it. If you believe that you have the right to force me - use your guns openly. I will not help you to disguise the nature of your action."

have no fear and say NO
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Old 25-05-2014, 08:48 AM   #16
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doobyferkin
Ok I can see that you are getting quite caught up in this. Atlas shrugged is a work of fiction. The prosecution does not ask you to plead, they present a case against then after they have made that case the defence will offer a rebuttal, if any and the jury (or magistrates for less serious crimes) after hearing both sides will decide guilt or innocence. You plead at a pleading diet before trial, if you plead guilty a new date will be set for sentencing. If you plead not guilty the case will go to trial. If you enter no plea the court will enter a plea of not guilty and the case will go to trial. There is also no requirement for the accused to offer any defence, the burden is on the prosecution to prove its case. The case will go on regardless of the defendants participation or volunteering anything, although in most cases that would be harmful to his defence.

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Old 25-05-2014, 08:53 AM   #17
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Ok I can see that you are getting quite caught up in this.
wrong...these passages support what i already thought on this subject before i read the book.


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Atlas shrugged is a work of fiction.
fiction can contain truths


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You plead at a pleading diet before trial......The case will go on regardless of the defendants participation or volunteering anything.....
you have a choice to volunteer to plead, point being, if i was put on trial or "pre-trial" for a "crime" that i do not see as a "crime" then I do not play the game, they take me by force.



a truth that is dangerous has to be well protected and fought against

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Old 25-05-2014, 09:16 AM   #18
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wrong...these passages support what i already thought on this subject before i read the book.



you have a choice to volunteer to plead, point being, if i was put on trial or "pre-trial" for a "crime" that i do not see as a "crime" then I do not play the game, they take me by force.
Fair enough but I cant see the point you are making, courts are filled with people who offer no plea. Had a mate who would just tell them to fuck off (if any one has the chance I would recommend spending a day at Hamilton Sheriff Court the process interests me but apart from that its actually pretty funny especially when they need to read out the statements which can go on for ten mins of just abuse to the police- said mate done it deliberately so it would be read out in court). It does not really change anything unless you are innocent or have a defence then the court will not get to hear that.
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Old 25-05-2014, 09:20 AM   #19
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No one does. How can they know?
This ^
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Old 25-05-2014, 09:28 AM   #20
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Fair enough but I cant see the point you are making
my point being, where the courts put on trial people who have broken unlawful laws that cannot be won then the only way to stop it is to not play their game, unfortunately i am speaking to a minority who will understand this message, only if the majority understood this and acted on it then the unlawful laws would have to stop.


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courts are filled with people who offer no plea. Had a mate who would just tell them to fuck off
this is the wrong approach although one that many unfortunately use.
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