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Old 17-07-2012, 05:44 PM   #41
sandwarrior
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Here is a major crux with this argument.

It disproves religion as religion states that people have the choice to be good or evil.

If we have no free will then we have no choice to how we react.

And I haven't yet heard a valid or even remotely feasible argument for free will.

Anyone?
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Old 17-07-2012, 05:48 PM   #42
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I'd say that I was 'good' because of empathy, I can understand the harm my actions could cause people. So, does that mean kindness, and empathy is a force that dictates my actions and inhibates my choices?
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Old 17-07-2012, 05:49 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
A bit cryptic

Does nature escape Cause and effect?
How so? It's simple. All humanities social and moral foundations are laid where?...with the rest of life on this planet. We haven't come-up with anything new and we certainly can't lay claim to original thought...Lizards were doing what we are doing now millions of years ago. Are we responsible for our actions given what we're told...Is the leopard responsible for killing a man? Is the man responsible for killing another fellow human being? Where does man stand on the natural need to ensure the health of the Human Herd. Are our individual actions for or against our natural drive as a sociable animal to ensure the well-being of the species? Is there a social virus in our expanding number in place to remove excess? What is evil? Is it just a natural balancing effect in the numbers game?
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Old 17-07-2012, 05:50 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by zephirop View Post
Basically the plot of 'The Dice man' then?
I'd never heard of it, so I looked it up. Blimey.

So, Sandwarrior and Unicorny, what you're saying is (in the words of Jesus out of Jesus Christ Superstar.)

You have nothing in your hands
Any power you have comes to you from far beyond
Everything is fixed and you can't change it.

Is that right? If so, I have to admit, it makes me very uncomfortable as a concept.
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Old 17-07-2012, 05:55 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
You are spekaing from a personal perspective.

Hypothetically what you are saying is true but it needs a whole lot of cause and effect to make it happen, maybe it will one day but it will be the only thing that could have been happening at that time.

Free will doesn't exist.

To disprove this statement, you have to give me a thought/situation/feeling *anything* that is not caused and doesn't have an effect.
Simple example of free will:

Nobody forces you to take some bribe to do something unethical.
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:00 PM   #46
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The idea of the original post is grossly flawed. Taking into account cause and effect we don't choose and are not responsible for our feelings and emotional reactions. To act on them or not is a choice.

Last edited by twighlightkitten; 17-07-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:03 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
I'd say that I was 'good' because of empathy, I can understand the harm my actions could cause people. So, does that mean kindness, and empathy is a force that dictates my actions and inhibates my choices?
I would interpret it as when you make choices kindness and empathy are causal factors that effect your descisions more so than say profit or power, for the reason that they are more important in your reasoning you might have to go back quite a few more steps and it will be a whole myriad of causes that caused empathy and kindness to have big effects in your life.
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:03 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
Everybody would gain.

Kids wouldn't be brought up without a sense of punishment and guilt, parents would instinctively know it wasnt their fault and show compassion.

People would accept situations easier knowing that it couldn't have happened any other way, victimhood would be remove, the "why me syndrom."

Guilt for past experiences would vanish.

People would enjoy life more knowing that there is something guiding life and it isn't just some random event.

Life would be so much easier and happier.
So what's guiding it? I have questions for them!

No seriously ......
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:06 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
I'd say that I was 'good' because of empathy, I can understand the harm my actions could cause people. So, does that mean kindness, and empathy is a force that dictates my actions and inhibates my choices?
True empathy is rare.

Most empathy comes from being hurt and understanding that hurt in other people.

Yes your actions are dictated by your kindness and empathy but not just that they are dicated by your whole life experience and the situations you find yourself in.

You need to find out why you are inhibiting what you want to choose, through searching you will overcome it but you have to be honest with yourself, maybe this thead will be the cause that starts the search
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:09 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by fingersync View Post
How so? It's simple. All humanities social and moral foundations are laid where?...with the rest of life on this planet. We haven't come-up with anything new and we certainly can't lay claim to original thought...Lizards were doing what we are doing now millions of years ago. Are we responsible for our actions given what we're told...Is the leopard responsible for killing a man? Is the man responsible for killing another fellow human being? Where does man stand on the natural need to ensure the health of the Human Herd. Are our individual actions for or against our natural drive as a sociable animal to ensure the well-being of the species? Is there a social virus in our expanding number in place to remove excess? What is evil? Is it just a natural balancing effect in the numbers game?
The simple answer to your question is that moral foundations are a human concept and dont really exist all that exists is cause and effect and that whatever is happening is meant to be happening and could never have been any other way.
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:10 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by reverendsquid View Post

So, Sandwarrior and Unicorny, what you're saying is (in the words of Jesus out of Jesus Christ Superstar.)

You have nothing in your hands
Any power you have comes to you from far beyond
Everything is fixed and you can't change it.

Is that right? If so, I have to admit, it makes me very uncomfortable as a concept.
Yes, this sums it up nicely.

Trust me it is so comforting once you get it.

Spend some time meditating on it.

Que sera sera
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:11 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
I have come to the conclusion that ultimately nobody is responsible for their actions, at first this may sound ludicrous but hear me out.

IMO everything in this dimension is subject to the Law of cause and effect, absolutely everything, including our thoughts.

This being the case, whatever is happening right now and whatever will happen in the future could only ever happen that way; It also means that there is no free will and that every choice that you make is dictated by the sum total of your previous experience and the situation that you find yourself in when making the choice.

This means that ultimately people are not responsible for their actions and what they do is beyond their control and in total control of the Law of cause and effect, Or "God’s Will."
So this is like Fate as in it has already happened? No free will as it has already happened, just like not yet?
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:12 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by twighlightkitten View Post
The idea of the original post is grossly flawed. Taking into account cause and effect we don't choose and are not responsible for our feelings and emotional reactions. To act on them or not is a choice.
You will have to expand on why it is grossly flawed.

This seems like an emotional response.

The thought is abhorrent yes?
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:13 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by codie View Post
So what's guiding it? I have questions for them!

No seriously ......
A law is guiding what happens.

Call that law what you will but the fundamental variable in that law is cause and effect.
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:15 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by reverendsquid View Post
I'd never heard of it, so I looked it up. Blimey.

So, Sandwarrior and Unicorny, what you're saying is (in the words of Jesus out of Jesus Christ Superstar.)

You have nothing in your hands
Any power you have comes to you from far beyond
Everything is fixed and you can't change it
.

Is that right? If so, I have to admit, it makes me very uncomfortable as a concept.
nah not really, not in my eyes anyway but I only came accross this yesterday so not had too much time to digest it

but no there is no power from beyond and yeah maybe everything is fixed but that's no reason not to make the most of your time on this earth or try and change society or seek spiritual enlightenment but it is a bloody good reason to let go of resentment, bitterness, hatred and guilt
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:16 PM   #56
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The concept that humans have free will in THIS existence is complete 100% bullshit. You have no control over your next thought, you have no control over where your thoughts will go. We are living in duality, and our bi-polar brain is insane. It never shuts up, it is always speaking in the background no matter what you try to do. Your mind is in constant conflict with itself because it has been disconnected from your spirit/intuition/soul. The mind was supposed to serve who we really are, not lead it. Unfortunately humans are trapped here, being forced to observe this reality through this limited 5 sense body.
That's a brilliant post. I agree with you, that we aren't supposed to be lead by the mind but lead by spirit. Denying, ignoring what your spirit is calling out for causes a society of crazy people....oh look! lol
It's a conflict that does drive people to insanity.
In fact I think a lot of 'mental' disorders are more situation based than brain based. Not all but a lot.

Interesting thread, but I've just confused myself lol...
My spirit gets it but my mind doesn't...
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:17 PM   #57
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So this is like Fate as in it has already happened? No free will as it has already happened, just like not yet?
Yes its fate and Gods will.

Maybe it has already happened in the mind of the creator but that is only because it can see all of the variables so can predict the future, in our dimension it hasn't happened as we are trapped in the illusion of linear time.

No free will as in we have no control over what happens due to the law of cause and effect, we cannot cahnge what was already going to happen.

Once started, reality in our dimension was only ever going to be one way and it is happening still and we are just along for the ride.
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:20 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
A bit cryptic

Does nature escape Cause and effect?
Let me up it to a micro level in the sociable mammal and there is a huge body of evidence that's quite recent and exciting in the area of animal (mammal) social structures...this was a episode on Nat Geo, but the online research is so much better..:

Hyena social Hierarchy...just like ours, just more efficient. A research team followed a family around that had for many reason a dysfunction Matriarch. She was bad tempered and lead for leading's sake as she was the product of a leadership gene...offspring of the pack 'Alfas'. Needless to say the pack suffered as she lead them into danger and the more the pack barked their dissatisfaction the more aggressive and violent she became. It lead to her brutal subjugation which would in most circumstances have meant to her violent death, and a new matriarch was 'chosen' to replace her from the ranks and the pack was once again in balance with their environment. Now do you see what actions the Human pack must a take to set the balance right...'Morality and responsibility' as a brand is a numbing agent injected into the human herd by social parasites that can't stop sucking on us...they can't stop. They are addicts. Real Morality and responsibility for most of the human pack is a natural given...no choice. For the unaffected pack leaders it is something that must be abused for their own personal survival.

Last edited by fingersync; 17-07-2012 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:21 PM   #59
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nah not really, not in my eyes anyway but I only came accross this yesterday so not had too much time to digest it

but no there is no power from beyond and yeah maybe everything is fixed but that's no reason not to make the most of your time on this earth or try and change society or seek spiritual enlightenment but it is a bloody good reason to let go of resentment, bitterness, hatred and guilt
Of course make the most of you time on this plane and I think this line of thinking makes you do this, it gives life a purpose, if the cause of this thread makes one person change their perspective to try new things then it has caused a good thing to be effected, imagine that on a massive scale and then extrapolate to how powerful this thought actually is
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:22 PM   #60
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My thioughts are:-

TIME- I try to think of time as a human only concept. Its our way of organsing a series of events. From a human concept everything has a beginning and an end....

I think if you look at it on a much larger scale, evrything that ever is, was or will be is not actually happening in a linear order, its happened/happening/going to happen.

I know exactly what i mean and it makes sense in my head but its hard getting out in a way that makes sense!
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