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Old 25-04-2010, 02:59 AM   #1
ashaffe
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Post Zeitgeist Movement Misconceptions

Hello everyone,

The name of this thread is “The Awakening/What we can do.” Well, in that spirit I would like to introduce you all to the ideas behind the Zeitgeist Movement. First, I will respond to many of the misconceptions about the movement and the charges laid against it.

1) The Zeitgeist Movement is New World Order.
This is simply not true. In fact in many ways the Zeitgeist Movement is the opposite of the New World Order conspiracy. The NWO wants a one world currency. The Zeitgeist movement seeks to eliminate the need for all currency. The NWO wants a one world government. The Zeitgeist movement wants to use the scientific method and technology to eliminate the need for all governments. The NWO uses debt and money to advance its agenda. The Zeitgeist’s main goal is to declare the earth’s resources the common heritage of humanity so that all goods and services can be provided without payment, debt or servitude.

2) The Zeitgiest Movement is communism or “neo-Marxism”
This is another weak ad hominem attack. The most important difference between communism and the Zeitgeist Movement is its relationship to the working class. Communism/Socialist philosophies are largely concerned with the welfare and status of the working class while the Zeitgeist Movement wants to eliminate the working class altogether through technological automation. But more importantly communism and socialism does not take into account our relationship with the planet and its resources while in the Zeitgeist Movement this is the central focus.

3) The Zeitgeist Movement is a Utopia
This is a loaded term and an ad hominem attack. No one in the Zeitgeist movement, at least that I know of, has ever made this claim. There is no such thing as a utopia. Life will always present us with problems. In the words of Jacque Fresco, “There are no ‘Utopias.’ The very notion of ‘Utopia’ is static. However, the survival of any social system ultimately depends upon its ability to allow for appropriate change to improve society as a whole.”


The Zeitgeist Movement is the only organization I have seen so far that is addressing the real root causes behind humanity’s problems and has a genuine alternative to the current failing system. Fully explaining the ideas behind the Zeitgeist Movement would be too lengthy for one post so I will direct you to these sources if you are interested in learning more.

Zeitgeist Movement

Venus Project

Last edited by ashaffe; 25-04-2010 at 03:03 AM. Reason: Change icon
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Old 25-04-2010, 09:46 AM   #2
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While I would agree with what you state, and believe that the majority of people and its founders have good intentions, they are ultimately calling for is a scientific dictatorship.

Like any movement of over 10000 people it will be and probably already is infiltrated and taken over.

Scientific dictatorship is the chosen path of the NWO.

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Old 25-04-2010, 01:32 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by shed7628 View Post
While I would agree with what you state, and believe that the majority of people and its founders have good intentions, they are ultimately calling for is a scientific dictatorship.

Like any movement of over 10000 people it will be and probably already is infiltrated and taken over.

Scientific dictatorship is the chosen path of the NWO.
Where is your evidence that the Zeitgeist Movement is promoting a scientific dictatorship?
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Old 25-04-2010, 01:43 PM   #4
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Where is your evidence that the Zeitgeist Movement is promoting a scientific dictatorship?
I have to provide a link for this.

Seriously, read the Venus project and listen to peter Joseph and all it talks about is science and decisions for humanity based on science.

You can do what you like as long as the super computer says it is valid, sounds like dictatorship to me.

Dont get me wrong love both films, and the last 6 mins of the first changed my life.

Once you create a power structure with authority you will always have tyrants.

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Old 25-04-2010, 02:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by ashaffe View Post
Hello everyone,

The name of this thread is “The Awakening/What we can do.” Well, in that spirit I would like to introduce you all to the ideas behind the Zeitgeist Movement. First, I will respond to many of the misconceptions about the movement and the charges laid against it.

1) The Zeitgeist Movement is New World Order.
This is simply not true. In fact in many ways the Zeitgeist Movement is the opposite of the New World Order conspiracy. The NWO wants a one world currency. The Zeitgeist movement seeks to eliminate the need for all currency. The NWO wants a one world government. The Zeitgeist movement wants to use the scientific method and technology to eliminate the need for all governments. The NWO uses debt and money to advance its agenda. The Zeitgeist’s main goal is to declare the earth’s resources the common heritage of humanity so that all goods and services can be provided without payment, debt or servitude.

2) The Zeitgiest Movement is communism or “neo-Marxism”
This is another weak ad hominem attack. The most important difference between communism and the Zeitgeist Movement is its relationship to the working class. Communism/Socialist philosophies are largely concerned with the welfare and status of the working class while the Zeitgeist Movement wants to eliminate the working class altogether through technological automation. But more importantly communism and socialism does not take into account our relationship with the planet and its resources while in the Zeitgeist Movement this is the central focus.

3) The Zeitgeist Movement is a Utopia
This is a loaded term and an ad hominem attack. No one in the Zeitgeist movement, at least that I know of, has ever made this claim. There is no such thing as a utopia. Life will always present us with problems. In the words of Jacque Fresco, “There are no ‘Utopias.’ The very notion of ‘Utopia’ is static. However, the survival of any social system ultimately depends upon its ability to allow for appropriate change to improve society as a whole.”


The Zeitgeist Movement is the only organization I have seen so far that is addressing the real root causes behind humanity’s problems and has a genuine alternative to the current failing system. Fully explaining the ideas behind the Zeitgeist Movement would be too lengthy for one post so I will direct you to these sources if you are interested in learning more.

Zeitgeist Movement

Venus Project
I think the Venus Project is great, It is something that i believe we should be moveing towards, its the next logical step for humanity, using our most advanced technology to create a better world for all.
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Old 25-04-2010, 02:55 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ashaffe View Post

1) The Zeitgeist Movement is New World Order.
This is simply not true. In fact in many ways the Zeitgeist Movement is the opposite of the New World Order conspiracy. The NWO wants a one world currency. The Zeitgeist movement seeks to eliminate the need for all currency. The NWO wants a one world government. The Zeitgeist movement wants to use the scientific method and technology to eliminate the need for all governments. The NWO uses debt and money to advance its agenda. The Zeitgeist’s main goal is to declare the earth’s resources the common heritage of humanity so that all goods and services can be provided without payment, debt or servitude.
That's just the means they use to control you. Their dream is a one world communist government where no nations exist and where no one is able to make war. Just what you would like. Why don't you read the Georgian guidestones.

Quote:
2) The Zeitgiest Movement is communism or “neo-Marxism”
This is another weak ad hominem attack. The most important difference between communism and the Zeitgeist Movement is its relationship to the working class. Communism/Socialist philosophies are largely concerned with the welfare and status of the working class while the Zeitgeist Movement wants to eliminate the working class altogether through technological automation. But more importantly communism and socialism does not take into account our relationship with the planet and its resources while in the Zeitgeist Movement this is the central focus.
Communism is a "resource based economicy" and just because you use a computer as an aid doesn't mean it will be any less dictatorial.

When it comes to the planet, well, climate change just wasn't a pressing issue during Marx's time.


I mean why don't you say that you oppose government because it oppresses and forces people. But instead you say that you have a 'computer'. What fucking crap.

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Old 25-04-2010, 03:43 PM   #7
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will we have the decision and freedom not to join the movement or leave?
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Old 25-04-2010, 04:58 PM   #8
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I've nothing against the zeitgeist movement at all.
The problem is it just won't work in the way it's envisioned to.

It might work for a few thousand really smart and dedicated individuals (a lot who are members will quickly realise that they do NOT in fact fit the bill) if a lot of money is invested initially (talking millions here) and it's done on a small island out of the way somewhere.

My issues with it are:

1) the vast majority of people who like the idea do not fully comprehend the level of responsibility needed and are in fact incapable of true hard graft.

2) the system will need to be started initially as a part of the current economic system and will therefore require a huge initial investment.

3) the computers making the decisions are only as good as the software running them. Garbage in = garbage out. It requires some incredibly complex code and vast amounts of information that will take decades to achieve even with the brightest minds and a pile of money initially.

As for the rest of it I don't mind at all. I don't think it's part of some "conspiracy" and I don't think it has anything to do with communism...or for that matter any other ism you could care to mention. It's completely new and deserves a different title for it's social design.

All that said, because of the above issues it WILL fail.
Perhaps in a thousand years or so we may be ready for it. Firstly however we need to bring back libertarianism and people need to homestead and learn to look after themselves and the land before they are capable of considering such a social system as Fresco proposes. He's just too far ahead of humanity imho and far too many people are dreamers who refuse to see that there needs to be a transitional phase to attain any measure of "utopia".
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Old 25-04-2010, 07:26 PM   #9
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The venus project has many floors but it is a great concept. Not that many others are about. I believe the zeitgeist movement will become big but never influential worldwide. Monotheism will forever reign it seems
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Old 25-04-2010, 07:45 PM   #10
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will we have the decision and freedom not to join the movement or leave?
Absolutely, the system we are proposing is very human centric. Unlike the system we are living in now, a resource based economy would be focused on the well being and needs of human beings. If you want to continue to live in a monetary system no one will stop you.
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Old 25-04-2010, 07:55 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by shed7628 View Post
I have to provide a link for this.

Seriously, read the Venus project and listen to peter Joseph and all it talks about is science and decisions for humanity based on science.

You can do what you like as long as the super computer says it is valid, sounds like dictatorship to me.

Dont get me wrong love both films, and the last 6 mins of the first changed my life.

Once you create a power structure with authority you will always have tyrants.
I would just add that in the modern world we are already delegating much of our decision making to machines. In this system no machine or computer will interfere with the decisions you make in your personal life. No machine would have any authority of anyone' life. This would be considered offensive and counterproductive. We are talking about technical decisions for the maintenance of civilization.

Secondly, computers are not capable of being corrupted like humans as they have no self interest motivations or biases. They can only do what they are designed or programmed to do. Therefore your fear of a scientific dictatorship is unfounded.
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Old 25-04-2010, 08:11 PM   #12
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I've nothing against the zeitgeist movement at all.
The problem is it just won't work in the way it's envisioned to.

It might work for a few thousand really smart and dedicated individuals (a lot who are members will quickly realise that they do NOT in fact fit the bill) if a lot of money is invested initially (talking millions here) and it's done on a small island out of the way somewhere.

My issues with it are:

1) the vast majority of people who like the idea do not fully comprehend the level of responsibility needed and are in fact incapable of true hard graft.

2) the system will need to be started initially as a part of the current economic system and will therefore require a huge initial investment.

3) the computers making the decisions are only as good as the software running them. Garbage in = garbage out. It requires some incredibly complex code and vast amounts of information that will take decades to achieve even with the brightest minds and a pile of money initially.

As for the rest of it I don't mind at all. I don't think it's part of some "conspiracy" and I don't think it has anything to do with communism...or for that matter any other ism you could care to mention. It's completely new and deserves a different title for it's social design.

All that said, because of the above issues it WILL fail.
Perhaps in a thousand years or so we may be ready for it. Firstly however we need to bring back libertarianism and people need to homestead and learn to look after themselves and the land before they are capable of considering such a social system as Fresco proposes. He's just too far ahead of humanity imho and far too many people are dreamers who refuse to see that there needs to be a transitional phase to attain any measure of "utopia".
Yes, I agree that there are serious barriers that stand in our way. The transition will not be easy or simple and it will require a great deal of effort and ingenuity on our part. However, that is no excuse to not try. If we do not find a way to transcend our current system we will not survive as a civilization. The crash has already begun and it will only get worse until we address the root causes of our problems.
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Old 25-04-2010, 08:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ashaffe View Post
Yes, I agree that there are serious barriers that stand in our way. The transition will not be easy or simple and it will require a great deal of effort and ingenuity on our part. However, that is no excuse to not try. If we do not find a way to transcend our current system we will not survive as a civilization. The crash has already begun and it will only get worse until we address the root causes of our problems.
The transition is imho obvious. We just need to bring back libertarian government, throw off the bankers and give the land back to the people and let them live off it by law.

Give it some time and people will begin to grow up if they live such a lifestyle, the kids will be better etc. Then maybe we can look at the venus project seriously but right now there's a pile of people who literally cannot do simple maths, cannot spell properly and cannot see that a 30 year mortgage to the value of 11 times their salary for a sardine can called a "house" is a bad idea.

Now YOU understand what I mean by the above, but do you have any idea how many people do not even know what libertarianism is? I've seen it discussed on news shows even in the US and they still haven't a clue.

We're so fu***d as a race at this moment in time if you fully grasp the horror of the situation you have nightmares about it...your very sanity is stressed to breaking point. You have to resort to blowing steam off on internet forums because there are so few people who live near you to share your feelings with. I feel for everyone in this predicament, both the ones who can see it and those who as yet do not but every day I catch myself occasionally coldly calling some of them "sheeple" and sometimes wishing that the "elite" or whatever you want to call them just got on with it and went hell for leather with WW3 or whatever destruction they have in mind to get their end goal.

I'm in danger of losing my own humanity, my empathy for others and it disturbs me greatly.

I'll finish by stating that if the venus project were to consider pushing for libertarianism and homesteading first as a means to bring about some real change then I would wholeheartedly support them, but you have to admit it's a tall order to ask people to make the mental jump to what the venus project represents when most of them still have a belief in authoritarian government.

I would personally class the venus project as libertarian-left philosophy with a technological bent.
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Old 25-04-2010, 09:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashaffe View Post
I would just add that in the modern world we are already delegating much of our decision making to machines. In this system no machine or computer will interfere with the decisions you make in your personal life. No machine would have any authority of anyone' life. This would be considered offensive and counterproductive. We are talking about technical decisions for the maintenance of civilization.

Secondly, computers are not capable of being corrupted like humans as they have no self interest motivations or biases. They can only do what they are designed or programmed to do. Therefore your fear of a scientific dictatorship is unfounded.
For something like a world proposed in zeitgeist to exist a level of consciousness is required that when attained there would be no need for the movement..

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Old 25-04-2010, 10:18 PM   #15
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will we have the decision and freedom not to join the movement or leave?
Yeah that was my question too. I have seen some of what they promote and in concept agree with a lot of it. I am always on board with folks trying to make essentials so easy to obtain and so readily available that more and more folks can have access to them. I would rather raise people up so they can provide for themselves rather than them having to live off of charity indefinitely. However, like boobydiva I want to know what happens when I disagree with a certain direction they may take. Will they leave me alone? If so, then great. If not, then we are going to have a serious problem. To many people set out to help others and rather than offering help and waiting for the person to accept it they end up trying to control others behavior for their own good. That is what aggravates me.
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Old 25-04-2010, 10:39 PM   #16
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Absolutely, the system we are proposing is very human centric. Unlike the system we are living in now, a resource based economy would be focused on the well being and needs of human beings. If you want to continue to live in a monetary system no one will stop you.
Of course they will stop you. The whole philosophy is that all resources should be equally allocated to everyone. If you have people who decide not to conform to this system, who use up "more than their share" of the resources, it'll become a system where the majority of the population (those who are indoctrinated) are left to share a minority of resources, because the greedy buggers who dissent are using them all up.

The only way "equal resource share" can work is if everyone agrees to use only their share.

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Old 26-04-2010, 01:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ashaffe View Post
Hello everyone,

The name of this thread is “The Awakening/What we can do.” Well, in that spirit I would like to introduce you all to the ideas behind the Zeitgeist Movement. First, I will respond to many of the misconceptions about the movement and the charges laid against it.

1) The Zeitgeist Movement is New World Order.
This is simply not true. In fact in many ways the Zeitgeist Movement is the opposite of the New World Order conspiracy. The NWO wants a one world currency. The Zeitgeist movement seeks to eliminate the need for all currency. The NWO wants a one world government. The Zeitgeist movement wants to use the scientific method and technology to eliminate the need for all governments. The NWO uses debt and money to advance its agenda. The Zeitgeist’s main goal is to declare the earth’s resources the common heritage of humanity so that all goods and services can be provided without payment, debt or servitude.

2) The Zeitgiest Movement is communism or “neo-Marxism”
This is another weak ad hominem attack. The most important difference between communism and the Zeitgeist Movement is its relationship to the working class. Communism/Socialist philosophies are largely concerned with the welfare and status of the working class while the Zeitgeist Movement wants to eliminate the working class altogether through technological automation. But more importantly communism and socialism does not take into account our relationship with the planet and its resources while in the Zeitgeist Movement this is the central focus.

3) The Zeitgeist Movement is a Utopia
This is a loaded term and an ad hominem attack. No one in the Zeitgeist movement, at least that I know of, has ever made this claim. There is no such thing as a utopia. Life will always present us with problems. In the words of Jacque Fresco, “There are no ‘Utopias.’ The very notion of ‘Utopia’ is static. However, the survival of any social system ultimately depends upon its ability to allow for appropriate change to improve society as a whole.”


The Zeitgeist Movement is the only organization I have seen so far that is addressing the real root causes behind humanity’s problems and has a genuine alternative to the current failing system. Fully explaining the ideas behind the Zeitgeist Movement would be too lengthy for one post so I will direct you to these sources if you are interested in learning more.

Zeitgeist Movement

Venus Project
I think the Venus Project is a great idea, It will need to be implemnted in steps.
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Old 26-04-2010, 02:45 AM   #18
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They are quite unfortunately not that successful. I think there is a fine line between the use of the money system for barter and the governmental enforcement of trans-national corporations and fiat currencies..
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Old 21-04-2011, 01:30 PM   #19
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I used to see this zeitgeist as solution for human problems...but system with no
god who turns man into god is luciferian agenda...ego cant be god!
ego is lust, and my opinion is that lust can never be satisfied, only perverted
and transformed into more perversion
the real path is inside path.
System based on evolution is "system of death"
God doesn't need evolution, because he is perfect, god is our inner being
under the shadow of ego.
Ego can't make anything perfect.
Ego is the main reason of human pain.
And egomaniacs are the one running this world, so who can tell me that zeitgeist
movement will be different...hunger for power will again show its face
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Old 21-04-2011, 01:37 PM   #20
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will we have the decision and freedom not to join the movement or leave?
PJ mentioned reeducation camps, so.......
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