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Old 03-04-2011, 05:33 PM   #1821
tmtruther
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A nice anecdote or two from yes..... wiki

Anarchist themes can be found in the works of Taoist sages Laozi, Zhuangzi and Bao Jingyan [7]. Zhuangzi wrote, "A petty thief is put in jail. A great brigand becomes a ruler of a Nation," while Bao Jingyan said that as soon as "the relationship between lord and subject is established, hearts become daily filled with evil designs, until the manacled criminals sullenly doing forced labour in the mud and the dust are full of mutinous thoughts." Diogenes of Sinope and the Cynics, their contemporary Zeno of Citium, the founder of Stoicism, also introduced similar topics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
Read a brief analysis of Taoism as an early from of Anarchism here:

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Old 03-04-2011, 05:38 PM   #1822
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it's not a personal question, it's a question of anarchy - it's all very well being an anarchist in mind, but if you are a slave to authority in body its just whimsical.

Real anarchy involves the mind and body being free from authority or politics, but people can't, i suspect, take that leap because of fear of losing their comfortable lives, ironically created by authority and politics.

All this talk is good, but fruitless if people just go back to work tommorrow.
Sometimes, in totalitarian dictatorships, people have called themselves democrats and wanted a representative democracy.

Real representative democracy involves being free from arbitrary dictatorial authority but if they couldn't go and set up a representative democracy in their back garden and vote in MPs, they were no longer democrats. Because being a democrat involves mind and body and if you just think about democracy in your head or try to apply it in the ways you can in your life, you aren't one, even if you might try to advocate it.

Anarchists should just run wild in the hills in an anarchic fashion. If they have a job because that's how the entire country is set up, they can't be an anarchist. Same for communists or neo-Nazis or anyone who doesn't think voting for Mr Clegg or Mr Miliband or Mr Cameron is all you need. Really, nobody but liberal capitalists and a few socialists exist.

After all, it's always been easy to try to live differently in Britain.

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Old 03-04-2011, 05:40 PM   #1823
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This is weird.

The only person in this thread (other than me and Thunda) who knows what real anarchy is is dogsmilk (and he's not so keen on it).

I think I'm going to start a thread called "Real Anarchy and not shit I'm making up - Tell Us Why It's Good".

Last edited by amaralsright; 03-04-2011 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:42 PM   #1824
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This is weird.

The only person in this thread (other than me and Thundra) who knows what real anarchy is is dogsmilk (and he's not so keen on it).

I think I'm going to start a thread called "Real Anarchy and not shit I'm making up - Tell Us Why It's Good".
We could do with an anarchy megathread, this thread is a monster!
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:50 PM   #1825
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I can't find your post, this has to be the most popular and busiest thread ever on DI (what does that tell us?)

Was the answer a simple "they delegate authority" or did you write yet another long post that;
a) danced around it and answered a different question
b) described building a tin hut in Kenya,
c) said we don't need hospitals,
d) said we can use the hospitals we already have (surely the anarachist idea of the year for lateral thinking)?
e) said it was just a list of small tasks,
f) said that it wouldn't be a problem if the human race was reduced by 90%
g) people would just do it because they would
h) a friday night town hall meeting is all it takes

Did it actually address the complexity of building a complex fucking hospital?

You win the prize if you were honest enough to say that the community would have to delegate power and authority to make decisions and organise for the community.

Building a hospital would be impossible otherwise.

Well?
This is the post:

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Quote:
Originally Posted by amaralsright View Post
"Because nothing would get done, that's why not.

It's impractical and most of the community wouldn't even be qualified to make sound decisions.

Who decides how big the hospital is going to be, where it's going to be built, what materials will be used and how it will be resourced?

Everyone?

Jeeze."



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Really:

Who decides how big the hospital is going to be: Big enough to meet present and future community needs.

where it's going to be built? In a central location to the community with good road access and parking.

what materials will be used? Bricks, steel and mortar? You might want to speak to an architect and a builder first mind

how it will be resourced? By the community.

Do you really perceive these as difficult decisions? Requiring a department of health with a budget of 76 billion dollars? It needs 76, 000 people to make these decisions? Perhaps you could be one of the people to help in other ways. Labouring or something like that?
Now, will you stop building strawmen arguments and fucking trolling your own post?
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:52 PM   #1826
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Originally Posted by amaralsright View Post
This is weird.

The only person in this thread (other than me and Thunda) who knows what real anarchy is is dogsmilk (and he's not so keen on it).

I think I'm going to start a thread called "Real Anarchy and not shit I'm making up - Tell Us Why It's Good".
Actually I'd say out of everyone on this thread you're without doubt the most clueless.

No surprise there then.
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:53 PM   #1827
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This is the post:
Now, will you stop building strawmen arguments and fucking trolling your own post?
"how it will be resourced? By the community."

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Old 03-04-2011, 05:54 PM   #1828
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Actually I'd say out of everyone on this thread you're without doubt the most clueless.

No surprise there then.
You love me really.
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:56 PM   #1829
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"how it will be resourced? By the community."
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:58 PM   #1830
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No.

I'm serious.

"By the community".

That's bollocks mate.

Straight from the "one bound and he was free" school of bollocks I can't think beyond the next 3 minutes.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:03 PM   #1831
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This is the post:



Now, will you stop building strawmen arguments and fucking trolling your own post?
But how do people build hospitals?

How did a worker controlled factory in Argentina get a clinic built and why did everyone ignore my post mentioning it and ask how anarchists build hospitals? Though admittedly there doesn't appear to be step by step details of the entire process, which Bub would surely demand.

Do we use bricks, do we use cheese?

How do you build a lawnmower?

How do people decide what hat to wear?

What if there's an explosion in a ceramics factory?

What if apes evolve a superior intellect?

If a train leaves Birmingham at 2pm traveling at 70mph and one leaves London at 3pm traveling at 80mph, what colour were the dinosaurs?
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:06 PM   #1832
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If a train leaves Birmingham at 2pm traveling at 70mph and one leaves London at 3pm traveling at 80mph, what colour were the dinosaurs?
Claret and blue.

No question.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:12 PM   #1833
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The Governments start the wars to gain resources and lie about why they are there. We are saying the same thing except i say its the government and you say its the people. Interesting how you did the opposite when we were discussing who builds a hospital in our current system.

So too are we saying the same about violence. I was just using some examples and you have added more. What I am saying however is that I believe that most of that acting out is venting and attributable to our present state or condition and not attributable to human nature alone.

I used to act out greatly because I was angry and its hard to vent when your anger is attributable to circumstances and faceless entities. We take it out on others cos we are mighty pissed off and frustrated and have to release it somehow.

And as to alcohol, well those who use it as an escape wont need alcohol to escape for escaped they will have. Of course people will still drink but not as bad as they do now.

Of course there will still be fights but that doesnt mean it will get worse without a government. In fact I believe that given some time, it will reduce greatly.

It will take some time, thats all.

Its the damn NATURE vs NURTURE thing again getting in the way here.
Come on, Observer, lets not get into semantics again - we could both play that game ..

People "acting out" is always going to exist. People are still going to have self-esteem issues, for instance, they are still going to think their too fat, too skinny, too ugly, too unintelligent, too worthless or the million other things that effect peoples self-esteem until they finally rage at how "unfair" everything is. People are still going to get their ego bruised, people are still going feel as though they've been ill treated. People are still going to be controlled by their emotions - anger, hatred, sadness, love, jealousy, pride, happiness etc etc etc

None of this is going to change because Governments disappear. Some things, maybe - no raging against the Capitalists for example. But the myriad of other things that define us are still going to be there.

My Mrs has a knackered back, she's in agony everyday - it wasn't caused by the Capitalist scum - it was just one of those things that happen in life but because of the pain, she suffers with chronic depression because she's an independent person but she now can't even take a piss without my help - thats still going to be there when the Governments have gone. And others are still going to get bad backs just through living their lives. Or worse.

Sociopaths are still going to be born. Narcissists are still going to exist. The insane are still going to be there.

Its all well and good to say "we'll deal with them" when they show up - but this "authoritarian control grid" we live in can't even "deal with them" all as it is. Yes, some of them are in positions of power in the world. But they'll also ensure they are in your world too.

Sociopaths aren't "made" by society (well, a small number are affected by their environment) they are born that way. Estimates say that there upwards of 4% of the population are sociopathic - thats more or less 280 MILLION people in the world today who are sociopathic. They aren't all Serial Killers or MPs in Government - you might be living next door to one and you'll never know until something - nothing inspired by the Capital Pigs in Government, just something in everyday life - makes him or her snap or seek to dominate others.

YOU might be one (doubt it tho from what you write!) - and you wouldn't even know it because you know no different to who and what you are.

(please note : don't anyone bother claiming that I've been brainwashed into thinking that Sociopaths exist. That line of attack is sooooooooooo 140 pages ago.)
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:12 PM   #1834
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I should probably put this in the other thread, but fuck it.

How do governments build hospitals? I know they exist, but I've never seen a government building one. Maybe they grow from a seed or anarchists build them.
I've worked for the NHS and have had first hand experience of the wonders of hierarchical systems when it took several months for one man to put his signature on a piece of paper so some redecorating got done. So I'm sceptical..

Who exactly does what? Who makes all the decisions? What's the entire process? Unless someone can tell me, it can't happen.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:14 PM   #1835
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Originally Posted by dogsmilk View Post
But how do people build hospitals?

How did a worker controlled factory in Argentina get a clinic built and why did everyone ignore my post mentioning it and ask how anarchists build hospitals? Though admittedly there doesn't appear to be step by step details of the entire process, which Bub would surely demand.

Do we use bricks, do we use cheese?

How do you build a lawnmower?

How do people decide what hat to wear?

What if there's an explosion in a ceramics factory?

What if apes evolve a superior intellect?

If a train leaves Birmingham at 2pm traveling at 70mph and one leaves London at 3pm traveling at 80mph, what colour were the dinosaurs?
Well if cheese was in greater supply than bricks it'd probably be wise to use cheese. Maybe somebody in government will be able to tell us.

Not sure on the lawnmower, don't worry though, there will be someone in government that knows.

With the hats, I believe people look at the literature supplied by their local government to choose a suitable fashion.

The explosion at the ceramics factory sounds like a smashing idea. I guess once we've checked for injured people and put any flames out in the government approved fashion, we can start rebuilding in the government prescribed methodology. Once we've got government approval to build of course and using the government regulations for all of the construction.

Apes don't have government approval to develop a superior intellect silly.

The dinosaurs are only available in the government approved colours and, FYI, the government don't permit trains to leave Birmingham at 2pm.

Amaralsright must be incredibly wise or working for the government, cos he knows how to build a hospital.

Last edited by doesjason; 03-04-2011 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:17 PM   #1836
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I should probably put this in the other thread, but fuck it.

How do governments build hospitals? I know they exist, but I've never seen a government building one. Maybe they grow from a seed or anarchists build them.
I've worked for the NHS and have had first hand experience of the wonders of hierarchical systems when it took several months for one man to put his signature on a piece of paper so some redecorating got done. So I'm sceptical..

Who exactly does what? Who makes all the decisions? What's the entire process? Unless someone can tell me, it can't happen.
Governments build hospitals because they delegate responsibilty, decision making, logistics and organisation to individuals.

And the really big decisions they make themselves - after providing all the infrastructure (like fucking motorways) that make it possible in the first place.

That's how.

And sometimes they make a shit job of it.

However, I'm sure a whole community somehow doing all that as whole would make a much better job if it in bizarroland.

Last edited by amaralsright; 03-04-2011 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:18 PM   #1837
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Come on, Observer, lets not get into semantics again - we could both play that game ..

People "acting out" is always going to exist. People are still going to have self-esteem issues, for instance, they are still going to think their too fat, too skinny, too ugly, too unintelligent, too worthless or the million other things that effect peoples self-esteem until they finally rage at how "unfair" everything is. People are still going to get their ego bruised, people are still going feel as though they've been ill treated. People are still going to be controlled by their emotions - anger, hatred, sadness, love, jealousy, pride, happiness etc etc etc

None of this is going to change because Governments disappear. Some things, maybe - no raging against the Capitalists for example. But the myriad of other things that define us are still going to be there.

My Mrs has a knackered back, she's in agony everyday - it wasn't caused by the Capitalist scum - it was just one of those things that happen in life but because of the pain, she suffers with chronic depression because she's an independent person but she now can't even take a piss without my help - thats still going to be there when the Governments have gone. And others are still going to get bad backs just through living their lives. Or worse.

Sociopaths are still going to be born. Narcissists are still going to exist. The insane are still going to be there.

Its all well and good to say "we'll deal with them" when they show up - but this "authoritarian control grid" we live in can't even "deal with them" all as it is. Yes, some of them are in positions of power in the world. But they'll also ensure they are in your world too.

Sociopaths aren't "made" by society (well, a small number are affected by their environment) they are born that way. Estimates say that there upwards of 4% of the population are sociopathic - thats more or less 280 MILLION people in the world today who are sociopathic. They aren't all Serial Killers or MPs in Government - you might be living next door to one and you'll never know until something - nothing inspired by the Capital Pigs in Government, just something in everyday life - makes him or her snap.

YOU might be one (doubt it tho from what you write!) - and you wouldn't even know it because you know no different to who and what you are.

(please note : don't anyone bother claiming that I've been brainwashed into thinking that Sociopaths exist. That line of attack is sooooooooooo 140 pages ago.)
People are always going to have fights and some people are serial killers. And that's why we need a protection racket of people wearing tits on their head.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:19 PM   #1838
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Amaralsright must be incredibly wise or working for the government, cos he knows how to build a hospital.
Oh look.



Nice one.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:20 PM   #1839
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People are always going to have fights and some people are serial killers. And that's why we need a protection racket of people wearing tits on their head.
Because in an anarcho society there will be no such thing as police.

Oh no.

It's Everyoneisniceland.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:23 PM   #1840
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Governments build hospitals because they delegate responsibilty, decision making, logistics and organisation to individuals.

And the really big decisions they make themselves - after providing all the infrastructure (like fucking motorways) that make it possible in the first place.

That's how.

And sometimes that make a shit job of it.

However, I'm sure a whole community somehow doing all that as whole would make a much better job if it in bizarroland.
That's no good. Saying people engage in collective decision making isn't good enough for you is it? I don't believe this delegation bullshit works. Tell me how governments build hospitals. Right from the beginning until someone cuts the ribbon and declares it fit for an MRSA outbreak.
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