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Old 26-03-2015, 07:43 PM   #1141
logos880
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Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
My point was that Lewis' position, as I understand it, is based on Gnostic views and not Christian ones. Therefore, Lewis is not confronted by the paradox that god allows evil.

He just makes the point that temptation or desire is necessary in order to commit a right action. The Gnostic view is that since Sophia does not intervene she cannot be seen to condone evil.

The responsibility for this is placed on the demiurge.

My point was more of an aside I guess.
I don't see how lewis' position is based on gnostic views. lewis' comment doesn't contradict the bible in any way.

fwiw, lewis was a professed disciple of Yeshua, and an inspired one at that.

I don't think gnostics understand just Who created and was in the garden with adam and eve.

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That can certainly be argued.

It can also be understood that the serpent was able to liberate Adam and Eve from the material to the spiritual. They gained the knowledge of gods.

I think both views are correct. Both a tempter and a liberator.
liberated from what exactly? the garden of eden was paradise; heaven on earth.

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And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
as I've said before, the only knowledge that adam and eve gained was the knowledge of evil, and the ability to choose wrong over right. before the fall, adam and eve didn't know there was a such thing as evil.

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An all powerful all loving god would not allow evil to exist.

Even if one can reconcile this with free choice (personally, I don't think one can) it still leaves the evil caused by natural disasters as difficult to justify.

This is not a problem for those who don't believe in an interventionist god such as deists or pantheists.
this takes us right back to lewis' comment. without the ability to choose, we are no more than robots. love takes will, without will there can be no love.

I don't know that natural disasters can be considered 'evil.' tragic nonetheless.

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Yep!

We agree.
wonders never cease!

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Of course.

I have elevated enough to appreciate that point. I think most of us have.

But that is an easy one.
that's why I used it as an example, bc it's easy. I think it's certainly possible for us to know right from wrong.

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Indeed.
"no one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."
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Old 26-03-2015, 08:06 PM   #1142
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I don't see how lewis' position is based on gnostic views. lewis' comment doesn't contradict the bible in any way.
It is his belief in resurrection that is Gnostic. Also, in the Narnia series Aslan sings the world into existence.


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I don't think gnostics understand just Who created and was in the garden with adam and eve..
A Gnostic may well make the same claim against Christians.

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liberated from what exactly? the garden of eden was paradise; heaven on earth.
Liberated from the darkness and becoming enlightened.

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as I've said before, the only knowledge that adam and eve gained was the knowledge of evil, and the ability to choose wrong over right. before the fall, adam and eve didn't know there was a such thing as evil.
I think it goes further:

3.22 "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil."

Knowledge of good and evil implies choice.

Before choice man could not have been free.

You go on to make this same point:

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Originally Posted by logos880 View Post
this takes us right back to lewis' comment. without the ability to choose, we are no more than robots. love takes will, without will there can be no love.
Without choice and the ability to determine an action one is just a slave.

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I don't know that natural disasters can be considered 'evil.' tragic nonetheless.
It doesn't negate the problem of an all powerful god being able to intervene to stop it.

Either the god is not all powerful or is going to allow evil which means it is not all loving.

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that's why I used it as an example, bc it's easy. I think it's certainly possible for us to know right from wrong.
But not necessarily in every situation giving rise to a moral choice.

There will be those where the boundaries are blurred.

For example, Aleister Crowley stated that someone who does not intervene to save someone else's life is as guilty as if he committed murder. I am not aware of this principle being set out in the Bible.

If it is not, and you think it is a moral position, then where does this morality originate?
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Old 26-03-2015, 11:37 PM   #1143
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It is his belief in resurrection that is Gnostic. Also, in the Narnia series Aslan sings the world into existence.
I still fail to see how that makes him gnostic:

john 11:25 "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die..."

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A Gnostic may well make the same claim against Christians.
on what merit?

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Liberated from the darkness and becoming enlightened.
how could they have been in darkness when they walked with the Creator, the Light of the world, in the garden?

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Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
I think it goes further:

3.22 "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil."

Knowledge of good and evil implies choice.

Before choice man could not have been free.
but you see, they always had the choice. that knowledge was a burden.

on genesis 3:22, "not spoken in irony as is generally supposed, but in deep compassion."

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You go on to make this same point:



Without choice and the ability to determine an action one is just a slave.
a slave to righteousness, but always free to abscond. once sin entered the world there was no turning back.

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It doesn't negate the problem of an all powerful god being able to intervene to stop it.

Either the god is not all powerful or is going to allow evil which means it is not all loving.
my response to the burden of intervention is the same, intervention would in fact inhibit free will at this point. we are meant to choose.

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But not necessarily in every situation giving rise to a moral choice.

There will be those where the boundaries are blurred.

For example, Aleister Crowley stated that someone who does not intervene to save someone else's life is as guilty as if he committed murder. I am not aware of this principle being set out in the Bible.

If it is not, and you think it is a moral position, then where does this morality originate?
I wonder if these kinds of situations would exist apart from immoral decisions?

I'll quote lewis again in response:

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My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?... Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too—for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies.
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Old 28-03-2015, 04:12 PM   #1144
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Everything has a cause. The universe had a beginning and therefore a cause. The cause of the universe is the Originator of the universe. That Originator is Self Subsistent, Eternal and uncaused. The universe cannot be eternal as it is observably contingent. All contingents would have to be relying finally on a cause which is Self established and independent.

That is what I picked up from Shaykh Asrar.

Faith on a Originator of the universe is based on knowledge.
funny that

first you say Everything has a cause

then you say

That Originator is Self Subsistent, Eternal and uncaused


so is everything caused or uncaused


because either everything has a cause or somethings dont

and how do you know the universe is not eternal and uncaused
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Old 28-03-2015, 06:37 PM   #1145
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Theists tend to say say that stuff cant have just been created out of nothing...

Atheists will say, well God would have been if he created it all, otherwise who created god?

Well no.

The universe is a physical thing, we are physical things, we are a design, so is the universe, quite clearly.

It is easier to think of the concious mind of God being eternal, than physical matter and design of life we are living and seeing, that we have clearly seen grow... should God be there it is clearly not made up of just the same matter as just our flesh and rock... it would be the source of everything, with no limit or time. after all, what is time? This only exists to us and our understanding of reality... things age, change, grow... but existence and the universe seems to be there always... Atheists to not believe we have a soul, so how can they tell us they cant be eternal?

Saying, well then who created god?, is an example of how Atheists are unable to fathom reality beyond there own..

And there argument also debunks their own argument, in that who created the thing that created what they think was a "natural phenomena" ... the issue really lies then in what ever created it, and is it a concious force, or an unconscious one.

Was the eternal thing that created life and the universe unconscious, or was it concious. This is the core question that gets right to the bottom of it all.
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Old 28-03-2015, 06:53 PM   #1146
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There's a place between something being designed and it being an accident.

A natural series of actions and reactions between things. A naturally unplanned occurring between elements.
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Old 28-03-2015, 07:16 PM   #1147
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Saying, well then who created god?, is an example of how Atheists are unable to fathom reality beyond there own..
Only thing that got me saying who created God is God believers saying well who created X, implying God did. Yet when it comes to God nothing created it, so they understand the concept fine when it applies to their own bias.

At the top it is logical that whatever it is creating things is infinite. To me life and universes are infinite. Universes are cyclically created by other universes and life goes on, the cycle continues. This to me is much more reasonable than some supreme being creating everything(quite flawed I might add - take a look around)...
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Old 28-03-2015, 07:20 PM   #1148
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Only thing that got me saying who created God is God believers saying well who created X, implying God did. Yet when it comes to God nothing created it, so they understand the concept fine when it applies to their own bias.

At the top it is logical that whatever it is creating things is infinite. To me life and universes are infinite. Universes are cyclically created by other universes and life goes on, the cycle continues. This to me is much more reasonable than some supreme being creating everything(quite flawed I might add - take a look around)...
the same could be said of atheists positing an eternal, uncreated universe.
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Old 28-03-2015, 07:47 PM   #1149
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the same could be said of atheists positing an eternal, uncreated universe.
The universe is created by universal mechanics of other universes IMO(the multiverse). It isn't uncreated. It just wasn't created by a sentient being, it was created by the natural laws of existence IMO...
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Old 28-03-2015, 08:02 PM   #1150
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Let's assume that there's a mutilversal model of existence. That god exists, but he's some scientist from another dimension.

That scientist would have been created. Who created him?...
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Old 28-03-2015, 08:41 PM   #1151
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The universe is created by universal mechanics of other universes IMO(the multiverse). It isn't uncreated. It just wasn't created by a sentient being, it was created by the natural laws of existence IMO...
that's fine, but an eternal universe isn't much different than an eternal god.

where did the natural laws come from?
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Old 28-03-2015, 08:43 PM   #1152
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The natural laws don't exist because they make sense. They make sense because they exist.
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Old 28-03-2015, 08:45 PM   #1153
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The natural laws don't exist because they make sense. They make sense because they exist.
but why do they exist at all?
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Old 28-03-2015, 08:47 PM   #1154
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That's the big question....
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Old 28-03-2015, 08:59 PM   #1155
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That's the big question....
seems to tip the scale toward a conscious creator.
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Old 28-03-2015, 09:04 PM   #1156
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You may think that, I couldn't possibly agree....
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Old 28-03-2015, 09:05 PM   #1157
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The universe is a physical thing
The Universe is mental.
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Old 28-03-2015, 09:08 PM   #1158
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Let's assume that there's a mutilversal model of existence. That god exists, but he's some scientist from another dimension.

That scientist would have been created. Who created him?...
There is no evidence for the multiverse concept.

It was just a response to the evidence of fine tuning and the mathematical improbability of the Universe evolving with that fine tuning.
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Old 28-03-2015, 09:18 PM   #1159
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You may think that, I couldn't possibly agree....
why not?
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Old 28-03-2015, 09:26 PM   #1160
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I still fail to see how that makes him gnostic:

john 11:25 "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die..."
He believed in personal resurrection and not the Osirian concept in your quote.

Christians do not believe in personal resurrection.

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on what merit?
They have exactly the same merits to their arguments as Christians do when they argue Gnostics are wrong. That your text disagrees with theirs.

In fact a gnosis based understanding is on better ground than a faith based claim.

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how could they have been in darkness when they walked with the Creator, the Light of the world, in the garden?
They didn't know good and evil. They didn't know as gods.

Also, they were imprisoned in the material. The material is governed by Saturn. The same Saturn as was pushed back by the light in the beginning of Genesis.

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but you see, they always had the choice. that knowledge was a burden.

on genesis 3:22, "not spoken in irony as is generally supposed, but in deep compassion."
They did not have a choice without knowledge of good and evil. Lucifer brought temptation. If you look in good magician' stables Venus is associated with Lucifer and Desire.

Without desire it is not possible to commit a good action. There is no self sacrifice.

If someone is given option A and option B but there could never be any motivation or reason to choose option B, that can never be choice.

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a slave to righteousness, but always free to abscond. once sin entered the world there was no turning back.
No, they could not abscond without the desire to do so. They were just programmed zombies.

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my response to the burden of intervention is the same, intervention would in fact inhibit free will at this point. we are meant to choose.
And it was Lucifer who gave us the ability to choose.

I agree that intervention would inhibit this. But then I am not the one who believes in an omnibenevolent, omnipotent god who intervenes.

The lack of intervention to prevent evil is not a problem for me.

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I wonder if these kinds of situations would exist apart from immoral decisions?

I'll quote lewis again in response:
Your Lewis quote supports the liberation through knowledge of god and evil.
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