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Old 25-05-2012, 05:48 AM   #141
jon galt
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Originally Posted by mpe_solution View Post
Exploitative monopoly. What are you trying to prove Jon? That banks provide a vital function? They have a monopoly protected by the government and they exploit us. There is no need for banks. We could do the same thing they do for a tiny fraction of the cost. They give up noting of value in the exchange. Stop being a pawn promoting this corrupt system. Wake up!!
I do promote nationalization of the central banks, it just seems that there are some things that do not add up about MPE and questions of this you seem to avoid.

Last edited by jon galt; 25-05-2012 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 25-05-2012, 07:32 AM   #142
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I do promote nationalization of the central banks, it just seems that there are some things that do not add up about MPE and questions of this you seem to avoid.
I haven't avoided anything. If you fail to see the problem you'll never understand the solution. It seems like your perfectly happy with the current system so no matter what I answer you will always reject it. Look around you at what is going on and one day when you realize that there is something really wrong with the system maybe you'll give MPE a second look. In the meantime, enjoy your reality while it lasts.
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Old 25-05-2012, 08:59 AM   #143
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With out banning profit and personal saving i could see the nationalization of banks working, with profit going back into government infrastructure. Same with national resources and energy production. fe example I dont see how competition with energy suppliers can bring fairer prices when the energy from the same source. Although the government do have a habit of making a mess of things. In regards to banking tho nationalization seems to be doing ok for hina, from an economic perspective, ie their banks function effectively.

is this to do with monopolies?
Not really. I mentioned perfect competition because is was quite clearly hinted at by another poster as a solution to one of the 'problems' that I'd mentioned (profit). Unfortunately, he has either ignored or overlooked the fact that perfect competition is simply a theory/tool to explain aspects of market behaviour and the advantages of competition. Perfect competition does not exist in the real world and the influences on behaviour within markets are far more complex. When you study economics at higher levels this all becomes very clear.

Wiki gives you quite a helpful summary -
If you look at the basic assumptions you will see that it doesn't take a rocket scientist, let alone an economist, to work out that perfect competition theory isn't exactly the last word in relevance to the real world.

Consequently, bringing this back to the point I had been making, competitive forces will not do away with profit and therefore money will still gravitate towards businesses and those behind businesses. This is just one example of why MPE does not balance out an economy. The same imbalances remain, just without bank interest. So in an MPE world banks may have a lesser importance but the same issues remain. It does not create some wonderful utopian solution.

Separately and again as I mentioned before, savings would draw money out of the economy, so that is also going to be a problem for the MPE model.

I'm holding back on the public purse and international aspects until a more opportune moment!

MPE is not a solution, but I say again that I think these guys are well-intentioned. It kind of reminds me of John Craven's Newsround and those occasions when they'd ask a group of schoolchildren what they'd do if they were Prime Minister. Lots of ideas, lots of ideals, but.........!!

Interesting discussion though.

Last edited by micklemus; 25-05-2012 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 25-05-2012, 09:24 AM   #144
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balance of trade has nothing to do with balance. the aim is to export more than import, so that you have constant economic growth, and because every country is competing with every other country to achieve this trade imbalance of more exports than imports there will always be countries that end up with a trade defecit.
No. Economic growth isn't measured by the trade balance; it's the growth in economic output within an economy. The ecomony may include businesses which trade internationally but it also includes very very many which don't.

Re your trade deficit bit, careful - it looks to me like you're on the verge of supporting Jon's point and I don't think you meant to do that, did you?!!

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also, this devalue currency concept is rubbish. it is born from the time when we used gold/silver as coinage. as the population increased the money supply had to increase, so those coins came back to the mint, were melted down, and mixed with other metals to increase the money supply and devaluing the coins in the process. that was inflation. this is one of the problems with the current economic system. it sticks to out dated notions of wealth and value.
Oopsadaisy, you're even closer to supporting Jon's point.

Before going there, let's pause to look at money supply, which is where you started. Your point is that a government should just create more money whenever it is needed, so money is constantly available. Now, I note that the MPE guys accept the existence of market forces, demand and supply. Let's therefore pretend money was food. If food could be created whenever we wanted it, we wouldn't pay for it as there would be no need. Infinite supply drops the price to zero.

Same principles apply to money and there are many historical examples to support this. If you print money whenever it's needed, it loses its value. Inevitable. Market forces. If I want to sell you something, I will want to get as much for it as possible and if I know that you've got infinitely deep pockets, I'm going to dive in for plenty.

Do you see where this is going to end up? Then try putting that scenario on the international stage. Of course it will devalue a currency. As sure as eggs is eggs and night follows day, it has to happen.
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Old 25-05-2012, 11:30 AM   #145
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No. Economic growth isn't measured by the trade balance; it's the growth in economic output within an economy. The ecomony may include businesses which trade internationally but it also includes very very many which don't.

Re your trade deficit bit, careful - it looks to me like you're on the verge of supporting Jon's point and I don't think you meant to do that, did you?!!
i didn't say economic growth was measured by trade balance. gross domestic product is measured by the value (a number) of the goods and services a country produces and sells in a year

Quote:
Oopsadaisy, you're even closer to supporting Jon's point.

Before going there, let's pause to look at money supply, which is where you started. Your point is that a government should just create more money whenever it is needed, so money is constantly available. Now, I note that the MPE guys accept the existence of market forces, demand and supply. Let's therefore pretend money was food. If food could be created whenever we wanted it, we wouldn't pay for it as there would be no need. Infinite supply drops the price to zero.

Same principles apply to money and there are many historical examples to support this. If you print money whenever it's needed, it loses its value. Inevitable. Market forces. If I want to sell you something, I will want to get as much for it as possible and if I know that you've got infinitely deep pockets, I'm going to dive in for plenty.

Do you see where this is going to end up? Then try putting that scenario on the international stage. Of course it will devalue a currency. As sure as eggs is eggs and night follows day, it has to happen.
read my post again. and think about this. the money supply has to increase as the population increases. think about it. also think about this. money and prices are just numbers. economic growth is a number. the economic growth ideology assumes infinite growth, but he planet has finite resources.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRAKt0GakJM
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Old 25-05-2012, 11:45 AM   #146
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i didn't say economic growth was measured by trade balance. gross domestic product is measured by the value (a number) of the goods and services a country produces and sells in a year



read my post again. and think about this. the money supply has to increase as the population increases. think about it. also think about this. money and prices are just numbers. economic growth is a number. the economic growth ideology assumes infinite growth, but he planet has finite resources.
Agreed, which is one of the reasons why I think everything will at some point collapse anyway, come what may. No conspiracies, no 'awakenings' or anything; it's just an inevitability.

Similarly, globalisation is also an inevitability in the meantime. Again, no conspiracies needed to explain that one either.

Unsure why this is relevant to the discussion. However, I broadly agree with you that putting economic growth at the centre of the world's agenda is lunacy.

Last edited by micklemus; 25-05-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 25-05-2012, 02:05 PM   #147
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However, I broadly agree with you that putting economic growth at the centre of the world's agenda is lunacy.
Speak for yourself, I plan on exporting services to Mars and beyond....
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Old 22-06-2012, 09:17 AM   #148
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I dont think there is really anthing wrong with money itself......it just depends on who is in charge of it and how it is regulated.

I think if money is created without interest......if money was simply used as a means of barter then I think this would take away the power from the corporations that rule the world.

Money should also be lent out without interest.......why should somebody profit from being born into money compared to people who are born with nothing???
Well said.. Totaly agree.

some people are trying to muddy the water here...
whats needed is banks to be owned by the people via a non corrupt government, not private companies.

I think that is what it all boils down to.

Last edited by jimmyw; 22-06-2012 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 22-06-2012, 10:38 AM   #149
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bemore wrote:

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Money should also be lent out without interest.......
I would like to take you up on that.
Could you lend me a couple of hundred quid?
I am willing to repay at £1 per week.
I make that two hundred weeks.
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Old 22-06-2012, 11:56 AM   #150
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SUCH AN IMPORTANT VIDEO!!!!

thanks for sharing.
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Old 22-06-2012, 12:00 PM   #151
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bemore wrote:



I would like to take you up on that.
Could you lend me a couple of hundred quid?
I am willing to repay at £1 per week.
I make that two hundred weeks.

LOL i'm starting to see who are the shills on this forum now..... maybe you should go and play on the iamafacist.com forum instead.

Move along grown ups are speaking here....
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Old 22-06-2012, 12:04 PM   #152
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Or maybe you should address the points Rumple mentioned instead of insulting him?
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Old 22-06-2012, 12:22 PM   #153
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LOL i'm starting to see who are the shills on this forum now..... maybe you should go and play on the iamafacist.com forum instead.

Move along grown ups are speaking here....
It would appear that you find my suggestion ridiculous. Now, since you have agreed with bemore that money should be lent free of interest perhaps you would tell us why my suggestion is ridiculous?
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Old 22-06-2012, 12:31 PM   #154
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Or maybe you should address the points Rumple mentioned instead of insulting him?
the whole of the world is held enthralled by a ruling elite that are actively attacking the population...if you don't see this i feel sorry for you.

we have pretty much lost now. our only chance is to stick together and reject them and deride them and their system wherever WE find them.

if anybody is on this forum sticking up for banks and the status quo i am highly suspicious.

the 12 year old girl got it... why don't you.

now from this post on I will be ignoring all shills and trolls.... lalallalaaa
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Old 22-06-2012, 12:40 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by jimmyw View Post
the whole of the world is held enthralled by a ruling elite that are actively attacking the population...if you don't see this i feel sorry for you.

we have pretty much lost now. our only chance is to stick together and reject them and deride them and their system wherever WE find them.

if anybody is on this forum sticking up for banks and the status quo i am highly suspicious.

the 12 year old girl got it... why don't you.

now from this post on I will be ignoring all shills and trolls.... lalallalaaa
Blimey. You came here promoting Hayes and his scams but a few challenging questions and you have no answers and run to the hills.
You aren't Roger Hayes by any chance are you?
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Old 22-06-2012, 12:59 PM   #156
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So much for debate...
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Old 22-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #157
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So much for debate...
It's quite funny really.
Yesterday he wrote:

Quote:
Anyway 1st time on this forum so be gentle with me...
and within fourteen posts he becomes downright rude and starts calling us names
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Old 22-06-2012, 01:43 PM   #158
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hey I'm brave very brave.. but I'm not stupid.

I'm not going to argue with black hatters... not till i get my army into position.... lol
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Old 22-06-2012, 03:50 PM   #159
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hey I'm brave very brave..

Quote:
but I'm not stupid.
Given that you seem to think a bank can give more interest to depositors than it gets from borrowers, I beg to differ.
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I'm not going to argue with black hatters... not till i get my army into position.... lol
Delusions of grandeur too? I guess that makes sense. After all, the paranoid belief that everyone you disagrees with you is some sort of professional agent of "the system" kind of implies that you're important enough to be professionally squashed.
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Old 22-06-2012, 04:12 PM   #160
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i'm not going to argue with paid trolls... but i WILL lurk on this thread for as long as i can... and if any free thinkers drop by i will alert them to you scum.

Have a nice day
kisses
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