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Old 24-05-2012, 02:24 PM   #121
jon galt
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there seems to be the assumption on this thread that a country can increase its money supply by printing more money ie that it is borrowed in to existence with no adverse effects. money created this way would become valueless, i.e no other country in the world would accept it
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Old 24-05-2012, 02:31 PM   #122
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there seems to be the assumption on this thread that a country can increase its money supply by printing more money ie that it is borrowed in to existence with no adverse effects. money created this way would become valueless, i.e no other country in the world would accept it


it's not an assumption, and your assumption is wrong.
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Old 24-05-2012, 03:11 PM   #123
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I'm getting that feeling too, Gangamonster.

Jon, read what I write, don't make up things.
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Old 24-05-2012, 04:09 PM   #124
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I'm getting that feeling too, Gangamonster.

Jon, read what I write, don't make up things.

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A countries production etc. is its wealth. But that doesn't mean money is created through production.
I am referring to this you keep claiming that production/industry has no relation to a countries money supply. fe the financial assets purchased by the central bank can include foreign currency. you also do not seem to grasp that a currencies value is in relation to the value of other currency's.ie it is weak or strong against an other. If a country thinks that you are printing money which is not backed by any resources or assets they will not accept it. When other countries stop accepting your currency it becomes valueless for the purpose of international trade, how can you not get that? or imply that suggesting such is trolling.

You have also failed to respond to the issue of savings taking money out of a closed circuit economy and also the effects that the extraction of resources such as oil would have. you do not need any in depth knowledge of economics to realize that this is a problem.

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Old 24-05-2012, 04:26 PM   #125
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I am referring to this you keep claiming that production/industry has no relation to a countries money supply. fe the financial assets purchased by the central bank can include foreign currency. you also do not seem to grasp that a currencies value is in relation to the value of other currency's.ie it is weak or strong against an other. If a country thinks that you are printing money which is not backed by any resources or assets they will not accept it. When other countries stop accepting your currency it becomes valueless for the purpose of international trade, how can you not get that? or imply that suggesting such is trolling.

You have also failed to respond to the issue of savings taking money out of a closed circuit economy and also the effects that the extraction of resources such as oil would have. you do not need any in depth knowledge of economics to realize that this is a problem.
erm, fiat currency is not backed by resources or assets. it's backed by the government. it has value because they say it has because they will accept it as payment of taxes.
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Old 24-05-2012, 04:35 PM   #126
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Old 24-05-2012, 04:45 PM   #127
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maybe I can explain better with pictures. as you can see of the UK national debt very little is owed directly to banks. This is in the form of government bonds.

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Although the majority of gilts are held by British institutions, it's worth noting that the amounts held overseas has risen sharply since 2003. Currently just over 35% of our national debt is owed to foreign governments and investors. So it's not just Third World nations in hock to the rest of the world. We're relying on the confidence of foreign investors to keep our own country afloat.
http://www.debtbombshell.com/bond-market.htm

In reference to the rest of the video, a loan does not create new money as the debitor can default resulting in a loss for the lender. If the debitor does repay the loan it is only by earning the money that he can pay it back. The debitor has created the money through work of some sort. ie he would create that new money or wealth regardless if he had a loan or not

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Old 24-05-2012, 04:50 PM   #128
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maybe I can explain better with pictures. as you can see of the UK national debt very little is owed directly to banks. This is in the form of government bonds.



http://www.debtbombshell.com/bond-market.htm
the thing with government bonds is that the government has to buy those bonds back at interest. where does that money come from? the tax payer.
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Old 24-05-2012, 04:52 PM   #129
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the thing with government bonds is that the government has to buy those bonds back at interest. where does that money come from? the tax payer.
Why else would people invest in government bonds if they made no return? that is the point.
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Old 24-05-2012, 05:02 PM   #130
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Why else would people invest in government bonds if they made no return? that is the point.
think about this for a minute. the government sells bonds to raise money to pay for public services it can't raise from taxes. those bonds are fancy bits of paper that is a promise to pay based on future tax revenue. money is fancy paper which is a promise to pay. if the government can print fancy bits of paper only to buy them back at a higher value than they were sold, why can't they print fancy bits of paper and spend them into the economy? the bond system is a form of debt enslavement, as is the current fiat currency, FRB system.
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Old 24-05-2012, 05:10 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by ganjamonster View Post
think about this for a minute. the government sells bonds to raise money to pay for public services it can't raise from taxes. those bonds are fancy bits of paper that is a promise to pay based on future tax revenue. money is fancy paper which is a promise to pay. if the government can print fancy bits of paper only to buy them back at a higher value than they were sold, why can't they print fancy bits of paper and spend them into the economy? the bond system is a form of debt enslavement, as is the current fiat currency, FRB system.

Because it will devalue the currency. They pay back at a latter date because production and industry creates more wealth. At least that is what is assumed, ie the country could go bankrupt and default. As I said before if a government just printed money few other countries would accept it making international trade impossible. fe countries with a stable currency usually have a balance between exports and imports, ie as production/industry/resources create wealth a country can not import much more than it exports. with the exception of America which is a unique case as the dollar is the worlds reserve currency.

this goes in to more detail
balance of trade.


Last edited by jon galt; 24-05-2012 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 24-05-2012, 05:21 PM   #132
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Because it will devalue the currency. They pay back at a latter date because production and industry creates more wealth. At least that is what is assumed, ie the country could go bankrupt and default. As I said before if a government just printed money few other countries would accept it making international trade impossible. fe countries with a stable currency usually have a balance between exports and imports, ie as production/industry/resources create wealth a country can not import much more than it exports. with the exception of America which is a unique case as the dollar is the worlds reserve currency.

this goes in to more detail
balance of trade.

Balance of trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
balance of trade has nothing to do with balance. the aim is to export more than import, so that you have constant economic growth, and because every country is competing with every other country to achieve this trade imbalance of more exports than imports there will always be countries that end up with a trade defecit.

also, this devalue currency concept is rubbish. it is born from the time when we used gold/silver as coinage. as the population increased the money supply had to increase, so those coins came back to the mint, were melted down, and mixed with other metals to increase the money supply and devaluing the coins in the process. that was inflation. this is one of the problems with the current economic system. it sticks to out dated notions of wealth and value.
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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
"The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves, and the rest of humanity. Actually, we're rather like yourself and Dr. Cochrane." Captain Jean-Luc Picard (Star Trek: First Contact) "Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is." - Jedi Master Yoda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRAKt0GakJM
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Old 24-05-2012, 06:11 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by jon galt View Post
Because it will devalue the currency. They pay back at a latter date because production and industry creates more wealth. At least that is what is assumed, ie the country could go bankrupt and default. As I said before if a government just printed money few other countries would accept it making international trade impossible. fe countries with a stable currency usually have a balance between exports and imports, ie as production/industry/resources create wealth a country can not import much more than it exports. with the exception of America which is a unique case as the dollar is the worlds reserve currency.

this goes in to more detail
balance of trade.

Balance of trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jon, I am not advocating just printing more money. You keep shifting the discussion to tangents. We were talking about how money is created. You equate wealth to money which is not the case. The vast majority of money in circulation is created as debt. The rest is made up of the monetary base which is the central bank creating money to buy government debt.
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Old 24-05-2012, 08:57 PM   #134
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The vast majority of money in circulation is created as debt.
And when I get my £100,000 at £83.33 a month over 100 years whats that?

Under MPE its exactly the same(less the interest), please explain how that money isn't a debt based on my ability to pay it back, a promissory note if you will.
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Old 24-05-2012, 09:16 PM   #135
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And when I get my £100,000 at £83.33 a month over 100 years whats that?

Under MPE its exactly the same(less the interest), please explain how that money isn't a debt based on my ability to pay it back, a promissory note if you will.
And where did you see me say that debt is bad. It's interest that is the problem!
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Old 24-05-2012, 09:21 PM   #136
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balance of trade has nothing to do with balance. the aim is to export more than import, so that you have constant economic growth, and because every country is competing with every other country to achieve this trade imbalance of more exports than imports there will always be countries that end up with a trade defecit.

also, this devalue currency concept is rubbish. it is born from the time when we used gold/silver as coinage. as the population increased the money supply had to increase, so those coins came back to the mint, were melted down, and mixed with other metals to increase the money supply and devaluing the coins in the process. that was inflation. this is one of the problems with the current economic system. it sticks to out dated notions of wealth and value.
But the real reason countries push for this growth through trade imbalance is to try and keep up with servicing the multiplication of artificial indebtedness caused by the charging of interest.

How can you consume more than you produce? This is unsustainable and ends up with the exploitation of weaker countries for their resources.
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Old 24-05-2012, 10:15 PM   #137
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And where did you see me say that debt is bad. It's interest that is the problem!
The staff who run MPE work for nothing do they?
Where do they get their salaries from?

Are you opposed to profit as well as interest?
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Old 25-05-2012, 01:22 AM   #138
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The staff who run MPE work for nothing do they?
Where do they get their salaries from?

Are you opposed to profit as well as interest?
You could take the time to read through the information on the site, as it will answer most of your questions.

How do you pay the salaries of government employees? Through taxes. Profit is okay as long as its not exploitative like in a monopoly. Buyers and sellers determine prices. The price minus the cost of goods is a "fair wage" or "profit" as both parties freely agree to the transaction.
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Old 25-05-2012, 03:59 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by mpe_solution View Post
You could take the time to read through the information on the site, as it will answer most of your questions.

How do you pay the salaries of government employees? Through taxes. Profit is okay as long as its not exploitative like in a monopoly. Buyers and sellers determine prices. The price minus the cost of goods is a "fair wage" or "profit" as both parties freely agree to the transaction.
So the price and profit can be any thing provided both partys agree?Both partys agree to current banking transactions.

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Jon, I am not advocating just printing more money. You keep shifting the discussion to tangents. We were talking about how money is created.
it was not in response to you. as you can see some here obviously do advocate this and do not realize the implications.
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You equate wealth to money which is not the case.
I would argue differently

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Old 25-05-2012, 04:37 AM   #140
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So the price and profit can be any thing provided both partys agree?Both partys agree to current banking transactions.
Exploitative monopoly. What are you trying to prove Jon? That banks provide a vital function? They have a monopoly protected by the government and they exploit us. There is no need for banks. We could do the same thing they do for a tiny fraction of the cost. They give up noting of value in the exchange. Stop being a pawn promoting this corrupt system. Wake up!!
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