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Old 03-04-2012, 05:01 PM   #1
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Default "Buddha prophecised Jesus"

"Amazing" "Quick and Easy to understand information"

http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus.htm
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:13 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by blackyblue View Post
"Amazing" "Quick and Easy to understand information"

http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus.htm
Wow!

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Old 03-04-2012, 05:46 PM   #3
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What a load of crap. Buddha never talked like that and I have studied most of the sutras. Where do they dig this stuff up from?
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:48 PM   #4
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It's a pity the nails were driven through the wrists, as the hands were far too flimsy to hold a grown adults weight. Hard luck, Jesus, you weren't The One.
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:51 PM   #5
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I doubt they had any use for such a large number as a trillion. Hoax.
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:54 PM   #6
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WOW, sin was mentioned in the Buddhist texts as well as the Christian and Egyptian texts, I wonder if that means that they all have something in common?
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:35 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by alf hearted View Post
It's a pity the nails were driven through the wrists, as the hands were far too flimsy to hold a grown adults weight. Hard luck, Jesus, you weren't The One.
Not if he had wrist straps
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqXMQneVsg

There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

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Old 03-04-2012, 06:39 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by passerbye999 View Post
What a load of crap. Buddha never talked like that and I have studied most of the sutras. Where do they dig this stuff up from?
Agreed.

Totally laughable.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:39 PM   #9
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Not if he had wrist straps
He was God's son, why not include a levitating skateboard?
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackyblue View Post
"Amazing" "Quick and Easy to understand information"

http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus.htm
From the site you link:
Quote:
Permission was granted to copy these Buddhist Scriptures regarding the prophecy of the Holy One (Jesus) from Wat Phra Sing in Chiang Mai Province. The person who gave permission was Phra Sriwisutthiwong in Bangkok. It is guaranteed that this copy is accurate according to the original, that there is no error in transmission, which is in the book of the district headman, the religious encyclopedia, volume 23, book #29. This inquiry was made on October 13, 1954 A.D. (Buddhist era 2497). Phra Sriwisutthiwong is the Deputy Abbot and Director of Wat Pho Museum, Wat Pho Temple, Thailand.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:11 AM   #11
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Yes I have heard of this before (I think it was on a Jonathan Gray video)
Apparently someone from the Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar inner circle visited the Buddah and told him about the Daniel prophecies - even despite this, it's cool that even the Buddah knew a Messiah was coming.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:14 AM   #12
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It's funny that every link to that prophecy contains this quote:

"Permission was granted to copy these Buddhist Scriptures regarding the prophecy of the Holy One (Jesus) from Wat Phra Sing in Chiang Mai Province. The person who gave permission was Phra Sriwisutthiwong in Bangkok. It is guaranteed that this copy is accurate according to the original, that there is no error in transmission, which is in the book of the district headman, the religious encyclopedia, volume 23, book #29. This inquiry was made on October 13, 1954 A.D. (Buddhist era 2497). Phra Sriwisutthiwong is the Deputy Abbot and Director of Wat Pho Museum, Wat Pho Temple, Thailand."

Here is an example:

http://cambodiaforjesus.com/ (just scroll down)

And it all links back to the same page: http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus2.htm

So apart from claims on Christian websites and this often-repeated guarantee that it is real, there is absolutely no way to verify its authenticity. We don't even know what the Sutra's name is. We know nothing. All we have is a claim made by somebody who has believed another claim by somebody but who fails to provide evidence (the name of the Sutra, a scan of the Sutra etc). Even the scan on that website is from a book titled, "Salvation: Your New Relationship With God" not from the supposed Sutra.

My bullshit detector is going off
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by extremecheese View Post
Yes I have heard of this before (I think it was on a Jonathan Gray video)
Apparently someone from the Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar inner circle visited the Buddah and told him about the Daniel prophecies - even despite this, it's cool that even the Buddah knew a Messiah was coming.
Apparently there was a Hindu prophecy of Jesus 3100 years BC in the scripture Bhavisya Purana.

Also it is being claimed that there was two missing years in the Jesus Gospels and in those two years Jesus was living in India
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts3712434.aspx
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Is it my fault if i tell people to go jump off a bridge that some dumb asses actually go jump!? - John Strangis 28/12/13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqXMQneVsg

There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

Last edited by blackyblue; 04-04-2012 at 01:18 AM.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:21 AM   #14
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Default Jesus prophecised by Vedic Literature

Jesus Predicted in the Vedic Literature?

By Stephen Knapp


Every once in a while someone writes in to ask me what I know about Jesus being mentioned in the Vedic literature, specifically the Bhavishya Purana. So I've decided to make the information that I know available to everyone.

Dr. Vedavyas, a research scholar with a doctorate in Sanskrit, discusses some important prophecies from the Bhavishya Purana, which he says dates back to 3000 B.C. He states that one prophecy describes the future appearance of Isha putra, the son (putra) of God (Isha)(Jesus Christ), born of an unmarried woman named Kumari (Mary) Garbha Sambhava. He would visit India at the age of thirteen and go to the Himalayan Mountains and do tapas or penance to acquire spiritual maturity under the guidance of rishis and siddha-yogis before going back to Palestine to preach to his people. So, if Jesus was trained by the sages of India, this would explain why he was able to perform various miracles (siddhas). It also explains why there are so many philosophical similarities between early Christianity and Hinduism.

Dr. Vedavyas goes on to say that the Bhavishya Purana describes how Jesus would visit Varanasi and other Hindu and Buddhist holy places. This is also corroborated by the manuscript on the life of Isha (or Issa), discovered by Mr. Notovich in 1886 at the Hemis monastery in Ladakh, India, as well as by the Hebrew inscriptions found in Srinagar, Kashmir at the Roza bal, the tomb of Yuz Asaf [Isha or Issa]. The Bhavishya Purana also is also said to have predicted how Jesus would meet Emperor Shalivahana who established the Shalivahana or “Saka” era. Dr. Vedavyas describes this in his Telegu book, Veerabrahmendra Yogipai Parishodhana.

Some scholars feel that the king in the following description encountered Jesus at a spot about 10 miles northeast of Srinagar where there is a sulfur spring. However, the description mentions that this took place in Tibet, near Mount Kailash, which is a good distance away from Srinagar. During the king's inquiries of who he was, Jesus is reported to have replied that he was Yusashaphat (interpreted as Yuz Asaf by K. N. Ahmad), and that he had become known as Isha Masiha (Jesus the Messiah). K. N. Ahmad dates the writing of these verses to 115 C.E. Although details of the verses may indicate that they received later editing, their basic theme that Jesus had traveled through India, Tibet and Kashmir continues.

However, I should also point out that this prophecy of Jesus in the Bhavishya Purana is found in no other Puranas, which often corroborate each other. This is why a study of the 18 major Puranas will reveal an assortment of prophecies that are often repeated one in another. So to find this story of Isha Mashiha in no other Purana sends a red flag of warning. Furthermore, not everyone gives the Bhavishya Purana pure confidence. It is known that as many as 200 pages from this text had become lost or misplaced, and various interpolations are likely to have occurred in this text while India was under the British administration. So, we should be somewhat cautious about accepting this on face value.

The description that is taken to be of Jesus is found in verses 17-32 in the 19th chapter of the Chaturyuga Khanda Dvitiyadhyayah of the Bhavishya Purana. Nonetheless, to get a clearer understanding, here is what the verses say:

Texts 17 - 21

vikramaditya-pautrasca
pitr-rajyam grhitavan
jitva sakanduradharsams
cina-taittiridesajan

bahlikankamarupasca
romajankhurajanchhatan
tesam kosan-grhitva ca
danda-yogyanakarayat

sthapita tena maryada
mleccharyanam prthak-prthak
sindhusthanam iti jneyam
rastramaryasya cottamam

mlecchasthanam param sindhoh
krtam tena mahatmana
ekada tu sakadiso
himatungam samayayau

“Ruling over the Aryans was a king called Shalivahana, the grandson of Vikramaditya, who occupied the throne of his father. He defeated the Shakas who were very difficult to subdue, the Cinas [Chinese], and the people from Tittiri and Bahikaus who could assume any form at will. He also defeated the people from Rome and the descendants of Khuru, who were deceitful and wicked. He punished them severely and took their wealth. Shalivahana thus established the boundaries dividing the separate countries of the mlecchas [low classes] and the Aryans. In this way Sindusthan came to be known as the greatest country. That personality appointed the abode of the mlecchas beyond the Sindhu River and to the west.”

Text 22

ekadaa tu shakadhisho
himatungari samaayayau
hunadeshasya madhye vai
giristhan purusam shubhano
dadarsha balaram raajaa

Once upon a time the subduer of the Sakas went towards Himatunga and in the middle of the Huna country (Hunadesh - the area near Manasa Sarovara or Kailash mountain in Western Tibet), the powerful king saw an auspicious man who was living on a mountain. The man’s complexion was golden and his clothes were white.

Text 23

ko bharam iti tam praaha
su hovacha mudanvitah
iishaa purtagm maam viddhi
kumaarigarbha sambhavam

“The king asked, ‘Who are you sir?’ ‘You should know that I am Isha Putra, the Son of God’, he replied blissfully, and ‘am born of a virgin.’”

Text 24

mleccha dharmasya vaktaram
satyavata paraayanam
iti srutva nrpa praaha
dharmah ko bhavato matah

“‘I am the expounder of the religion of the mlecchas and I strictly adhere to the Absolute Truth.’ Hearing this the king enquired, ‘What are the religious principles according to your opinion?’

Texts 25 - 26

shruto vaaca mahaaraaja
praapte satyasya samkshaye
nirmaaryaade mlechadeshe
masiiho 'ham samagatah

iishaamasii ca dasyuunaa
praadurbhuutaa bhayankarii
taamaham mlecchataah praapya
masiihatva mupaagatah

“Hearing this questions of Shalivahana, Isha putra said, ‘O king, when the destruction of the truth occurred, I, Masiha the prophet, came to this country of degraded people where there are no rules and regulations. Finding that fearful irreligious condition of the barbarians spreading from Mleccha-Desha, I have taken to prophethood’.”

Texts 27 - 29

mlecchasa sthaapito dharmo
mayaa tacchrnu bhuupate
maanasam nirmalam krtva
malam dehe subhaasbham

naiganam apamasthaya
japeta nirmalam param
nyayena satyavacasaa
manasyai kena manavah

dhyayena pujayedisham
suurya-mandala-samsthitam
acaloyam prabhuh sakshat-
athaa suuryacalah sada

“Please hear, Oh king, which religious principles I have established among the mlecchas. The living entity is subject to good and bad contaminations. The mind should be purified by taking recourse of proper conduct and performance of japa [meditation on the chanting of the holy names of God]. By chanting the holy names one attains the highest purity. Just as the immovable sun attracts, from all directions, the elements of all living beings, the Lord of the Surya Mandala [solar planet], who is fixed and all-attractive, and attracts the hearts of all living creatures. Thus by following rules, speaking truthful words, by mental harmony and by meditation, Oh descendant of Manu, one should worship that immovable Lord’.”

Text 30

isha muurtirt-dradi praptaa
nityashuddha sivamkari
ishamasihah iti ca
mama nama pratishthitam

“Having placed the eternally pure and auspicious form of the Supreme Lord in my heart, O protector of the earth planet, I preached these principles through the mlecchas’ own faith and thus my name became ‘isha-masiha’.”

Text 31

iti shrutra sa bhuupale
natraa tam mlecchapujaam
sthaapayaamaasa tam tutra
mlecchasthaane hi daarune

“After hearing these words and paying obeisances to that person who is worshiped by the wicked, the king humbly requested him to stay there in the dreadful land of mlecchas.”

Text 32

svaraajyam praaptavaan raajaa
hayamedhan ciikirat
raajyam kriitvaa sa shashthyabdam
svarga lokamu paayayau

“King Shalivahana, after leaving his kingdom performed an asvamedha yajna and after ruling for sixty years, went to heaven. Now please hear what happened when the king went to (the heavenly region of) svargaloka.”

Thus ends the second chapter entitled, “The Age of Shalivahana” of the story of Kali Yuga of the Chaturyuga Khanda also called Pratisarga-parva of the wonderful Bhavishya Maha Purana.


As we can read here, this relates that the grandson of Bikrama Jit, Shalivahana, was the ruler of the Kushans. Some estimate that he ruled from 39 to 50 A.D. So the above described meeting had to have taken place within that time period. It is also said that the king vanquished the attackers from China, Parthia, Scythia, and the Bactrians. After establishing a border between the Aryans and the mlecchas, he ordered all the mlecchas to leave India. Once when Shalivahana went to the Himalayas he reached the land of the Hun, or Ladakh, and saw a man who was fair and dressed in white, looking very saintly. The powerful king asked who he was. The man replied that he was called a son of God, born of a virgin, a teacher of the nonbelievers, and was earnestly searching for the truth.

The king asked his religion. The man replied that he came from a foreign country where there was no truth, only unlimited evil. He had appeared as the Messiah but the terrible demon Ihamasi [illusion] of the barbarians appeared and he had ended up in her realm.

The man explained to the king that his religion was to purify the consciousness and impure body, after which, seeking guidance in the Naigama [a scripture], man could pray to the Supreme. By acting in truth and justice and engaging in meditation and spiritual unity, man will return to Isha, the Supreme Being. God will one day unite with all wandering spiritual beings, and Ihamasi [the evil of illusion] will be destroyed. Then man will be absorbed in the ecstatic image of Isha who exists in the heart and is the source of happiness. The man then told the king, "I am called Isha-Masiha" [interpreted by some to mean Jesus the Messiah, but is this really Jesus in this narration or someone else?]. After the king heard the man speak, the king sent the teacher of the faithless back to his land of nonbelievers.

Another thing Dr. Vedavyas says is that there is evidence that it was not Jesus Christ whom they crucified on the cross but his double. The last words, “Oh Lord, why have you forsaken me?” refers to Jesus having left him on the cross after Jesus went to the “promised land” of Kashmir. Of course, there are other theories on this. Among other scholars, some say Jesus did not die on the cross but was crucified, suffered and was later revived. Others also say his ascent into heaven was actually his journey up to the heavenly land of Kashmir, where he eventually died and was buried in Srinagar at the Roza bal, the presently known grave of Yuz Asaf, a name known to be that of Jesus.

Dr. Vedavyas goes on to say that the coming of Lord Kalki, as described in the Bhavishya as well as many other Puranas, is the avatara equivalent to the second coming of Christ as described in the Bible. Lord Kalki will be the next great world leader many years from now and will establish a world government based on Vedic Dharma and bring back the Vedic culture in a new Satya-yuga, a new kingdom of God. However, before this will happen, Dr. Vedavyas says the Bhavishya Purana describes a great tribulation and global disaster. Such things have also been described in Nostradamus’s predictions. However, we know these things tend to be cyclical and have happened before throughout the great expanse of time. So what may or may not continue to happen remains to be seen.

The Bhavishya Purana also relates the likelihood of a great war of wars which could change the entire map of the world, at least politically, and possibly even geographically if nuclear weapons are used. This has been further corroborated by other psychics and astrologers. The timing of such still remains to be seen.

Aside from all of this, the Bhavishya Purana also contains quotes relating to various personalities, such as Adam, Noah, Allah, Shankaracarya, Jayadev, Kabir, Nanak, Aurangzeb, Shivaji, and on up to the rule of Queen Victavati, meaning Queen Victoria. It even describes how the British will build factories in Calcutta. Most of these quotations are rather short with little elaboration, thus leaving the reader with few details to further the confirmation of what is described. An example of one such quote is that which describes the appearance of Mohammed, which is merely two lines with few details.

SPECIAL NOTE:

One point we must clearly understand, is that if we do accept that Jesus was predicted in the Bhavishya Purana and traveled to India, and if Jesus did study under the Vedic brahmanas and priests before returning to his homeland to preach, which some evidence indicates, then I’m sure it would come as a shock to most Christians that Jesus was an initiate of the Vedic wisdom of India. Thus, he naturally based much of his own teachings on Vedic knowledge, as anyone who is familiar with Eastern philosophy can see. This would also explain why there are so many similarities between early Christianity and the Dharmic wisdom, much of which seems to have been lost from the Christian fold through the ages.

It is obvious that Christianity is but a modified form of Sanatana-dharma. Yet, since Jesus spoke in parables on many occasions, the connection with Vedic knowledge and the deeper meaning of his teachings are not always made clear. In fact, there have been numerous diversions and misunderstandings made because of this, as shown by the hundreds of sects that have developed within the Christian community. So, essentially, this would also mean that you cannot comprehend the deepest aspects of Jesus’ teachings without understanding Vedic scripture or the philosophy of Sanatana-dharma, since those are really the roots of Christianity and the basis of the teachings of Jesus. Therefore, it makes sense that we all look into, study and learn this Vedic knowledge and follow its principles for a higher degree and more complete form of spirituality that we can add to our lives, for this is the foundation of most of the spiritual knowledge that has spread throughout the world into its many forms that we find today.


WAS JESUS REALLY PREDICTED IN THE BHAVISHYA PURANA?

Though some people have become convinced that Jesus went to India, or is predicted in the Vedic literature, there is also another view to this. With the help of the research done by B. V. Giri Swami, based near Mysore, India, he relates that a closer look at the prediction of Jesus found in the Bhavishya Purana strongly suggests foul play or interpolation on the part of Christian missionaries in India during the late 18th century.

The Bhavishya Purana is considered to be one of the major 18 Puranas of the Vedic canon. As the name suggests, it mainly deals with future events (bhaviysati). The Bhavishya Purana is also mentioned in the ancient text of the Apastambha-dharma-sutras, so it is to be taken as an original Puranic literature dating from the time of Srila Vyasadeva, who is said to be its original author.

However, there are presently four known editions of the Bhavishya Purana, each having different predictions from the other, but suspiciously having one consistent prediction - that of Jesus or Isha Masiha. One edition contains five chapters, one contains four, another contains three and yet another contains only two. Additionally, the contents in all four editions differ in various degrees - some having extra verses and some having less. Due to these circumstances, it is difficult to ascertain which of the four is the original text of the Bhavishya Purana, if indeed an original text still exists, but suspiciously, as mentioned, all four editions do mention Jesus.

The Venkateswar Steam Press edition of the Bhavishya Purana printed in Bombay in 1829 (and reprinted by Nag Publishers in 2003) is probably the most complete version available, containing all the main features of the four manuscripts. Since none of the four editions of the Bhavishya Purana predate British Rule in India, this further suggests a discrepancy. The fact is that the British tried to monopolize the publishing of all Sanskrit literature during the British Raj. They bought or confiscated any Sanskrit literature they could locate. And that is why you practically cannot find any Vedic literature that is published before 200 years ago. It is further known that they liked to publish their own translations, as if India could not produce its own Sanskrit scholars to translate the Sanskrit themselves. Plus, they would also try to interpolate various verses here and there to have the reader draw a different conclusion of the personality or traits of the characters described in the texts. Most were quite noble, but by slipping in verses that said certain persons had less than admirable qualities or degraded habits, or that questionable practices were used, it would change the reader’s disposition and attitude toward such personalities or the Vedic culture itself, even if they were Indian born followers of it.

Therefore, the consistent prophecy of Jesus in all four editions of the Bhavishya Purana, in spite of the differences in the editions found, seems to indicate an interpolation regarding the so-called meeting of Maharaja Shalivahana and Jesus. This is found in the 19th chapter of the Pratisarga-parva. However, as B. V. Giri Swami relates, in examining this section, certain flaws can be found which betray its dubious origins.

For example, at the very outset of this description of Jesus meeting Shalivahana, this section is fraught with historical inaccuracies. Shalivahana was the king of Ujjain (in modern day Madhya Pradesh), and while it is not surprising that Shalivahana traveled to the Himalayas, the enemies that he supposedly vanquished in battle before he went should be looked into more thoroughly. Historical research tells us that the only invading force that Shalivahana actually subdued were the Sakas, who entered India from the north-west regions. But as for his defeating the Cinas (Chinese), Bahlikas (Bactrians), Kamarupas (Assamese), Romas (Romans) and the Khurus (Khorasans, or Persians), there is no historical evidence that validates Shalivahana doing this, nor is their any historical proof of the Romans and the Chinese ever invading India at that time. The Bactrians (Greeks) came earlier during the Gupta Period and the Persians (Moguls) came later. The people of Assam were simply a small hill-tribe during this period of Indian history [the conquering of which would not have warranted a mention in Vedic verse].

Later, the king asks Jesus “Who are you?” and Jesus answers that he was born of a virgin. However, the Christian idea that Jesus was born of a virgin is based on the following verse found in the Christian version of the Old Testament in the Book of Isaiah: “Behold, a virgin has conceived and bears a son and she will call his name Immanuel.” But the original Hebrew text of the Book of Isaiah does not mention anything about a virgin. The original text being: hinneh ha-almah harah ve-yeldeth ben ve-karath shem-o immanuel, “Behold, the young woman has conceived - and bears a son and calls his name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7.14)

The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah yet it appears nowhere in this verse of Isaiah. The word used is almah which simply means “a young woman”. Isaiah only uses almah once. However, the word betulah is used five times throughout the Book of Isaiah, so Isaiah obviously made a distinction between these two words.

After Jesus has introduced himself to Shalivahana, he explains that he is teaching religion in the distant land of the mlecchas and tells the king what those teachings are, in which he says: “Please hear from me, O King, about the religion that I have established amongst the mlecchas. The mind should be purified by taking recourse of proper conduct, since we are subject to auspicious and inauspicious contaminations - by following the scriptures and concentrating on japa (meditation on the repetition of God’s names) one will attain the highest level of purity; by speaking true words and by mental harmony, and by meditation and worship, O descendant of Manu. Just as the immovable sun attracts from all directions the elements of all living beings, the Lord of the Surya-mandala (sun globe) is fixed and all-attractive, and attracts the hearts of all living creatures.” (19:27-29)

However, nowhere in the Gospels do we find in the ministry of Jesus the above teachings to his followers, unless they had been removed from the Gospels and somehow preserved in the Bhavishya Purana. Furthermore, in this passage, Jesus is advocating the worship of the sun-god (again, something that is absent in his instructions to the apostles, and in Christianity would be considered part of paganism). Japa, meditation, the negation of both good and bad karma, are all concepts that are familiar to eastern religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism, but not to the Abrahamic religions of the west, unless Jesus had already been trained by Vedic brahmanas and Buddhist priests at that time. In such a case, the Bhavishya Purana may have preserved some of the concepts of the teachings of Jesus that were never included in the Gospels, or were later deleted from them because of manipulating politics. This would mean that in order to get the true and deeper teachings of Jesus a person would have to study the Vedic texts and its philosophy.

Considering the above anomalies and the fact that no edition of the Bhavishya Purana can be found prior to the British period in India, we can deduce that the Bhavishya Purana may have been tampered with by the Christian missionaries who added the chapter on Jesus. Their motive would be obvious -- to make the personality of Jesus acceptable to the Hindus in order to convert them to Christianity. This indeed was one of their tactics in regard to other texts as well.

In 1784, the famous Indologist Sir William Jones wrote the following letter to Sir Warren Hastings, Governor General of India, confirming our suspicions that this was indeed part of their program:

“As to the general extension [spreading] of our pure faith [Christianity] in Hindoostan [India] there are at present many sad obstacles to it... We may assure ourselves, that Hindoos will never be converted by any mission from the church of Rome, or from any other church; and the only human mode, perhaps, of causing so great a revolution, will be to translate into Sanscrit... such chapters of the Prophets, particularly of ISAIAH, as are indisputably evangelical, together with one of the gospels, and a plain prefatory discourse, containing full evidence of the very distant ages, in which the predictions themselves, and the history of the Divine Person (Jesus) is predicted, were severally made public and then quietly to disperse the work among the well-educated natives.” (Asiatic Researches Vol. 1. Published 1979, pages 234-235. First published 1788).

What better way to translate into Sanskrit whatever they could of predictions of the Christian prophets and then disperse them among the well-educated natives than to slip such translations into some of the Vedic texts themselves? Plus, we often see that Christians, especially in India, tell Hindus that since Jesus is supposed to be predicted in the Vedic texts, then they should accept Jesus as their ultimate savior. But the Vedic texts are much more open and inclusive than that and also describe so many more avataras and incarnations of Lord Vishnu. So why shouldn’t the Christians also accept Lord Vishnu or Krishna as the Supreme Person, or at least aspects of the Supreme Being? After all, it was proclaimed that Jesus was the son of God. And who is the Father? So Vishnu or Krishna must have been the Supreme Father as the Bhagavad-gita and other Vedic texts clearly state, and as Jesus himself says he is the son of God the Father. And if Jesus did go to India, then he was familiar with this concept, which he thus expressed in his own teachings in his homeland. This is not going against the Biblical tenants. After all, the Bible does not exactly describe who is the Supreme Person, but only gives Him a name, such as Yahweh. The Vedic texts, however, give God innumerable names and describes much more about Him, such as His character, personality, pastimes, and so on.

Swami B.V. Giri concludes that it may also be noted that throughout the Pratisarga-parva of the Bhavishya Purana we find the stories of Adam and Eve (Adhama and Havyavati), Noah (Nyuha), Moses (Musa), and other Biblical characters. These he also considers to be likely additions by zealous Christians. The Bhavishya Purana may well be a genuine Vedic scripture prophesying future events, but from the above analysis we may want to reconsider how likely it is that the Jesus episode of the Bhavishya Purana is an authentic Vedic revelation. Take the evidence and decide for yourself.

For more information on what it is like and what you will find by visiting the grave of Jesus in Srinagar, Kashmir and some of the background information that gives this place its significance, you can read the article on this website, Visiting the Grave of Jesus in Srinagar, Kashmir.

http://stephen-knapp.com/jesus_predi...literature.htm
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Last edited by blackyblue; 04-04-2012 at 01:22 AM.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:23 AM   #15
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It's funny that every link to that prophecy contains this quote:

"Permission was granted to copy these Buddhist Scriptures regarding the prophecy of the Holy One (Jesus) from Wat Phra Sing in Chiang Mai Province. The person who gave permission was Phra Sriwisutthiwong in Bangkok. It is guaranteed that this copy is accurate according to the original, that there is no error in transmission, which is in the book of the district headman, the religious encyclopedia, volume 23, book #29. This inquiry was made on October 13, 1954 A.D. (Buddhist era 2497). Phra Sriwisutthiwong is the Deputy Abbot and Director of Wat Pho Museum, Wat Pho Temple, Thailand."

Here is an example:

http://cambodiaforjesus.com/ (just scroll down)

And it all links back to the same page: http://bibleprobe.com/buddhatoldofjesus2.htm

So apart from claims on Christian websites and this often-repeated guarantee that it is real, there is absolutely no way to verify its authenticity. We don't even know what the Sutra's name is. We know nothing. All we have is a claim made by somebody who has believed another claim by somebody but who fails to provide evidence (the name of the Sutra, a scan of the Sutra etc). Even the scan on that website is from a book titled, "Salvation: Your New Relationship With God" not from the supposed Sutra.

My bullshit detector is going off
I only posted one article, so funny how 'every' article contains that quote.

Can you please search the other two threads i just posted and see if they contain that quote
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:31 AM   #16
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I only posted one article, so funny how 'every' article contains that quote.

Can you please search the other two threads i just posted and see if they contain that quote
In the above article you posted the author makes some very good points. He states:

"Though some people have become convinced that Jesus went to India, or is predicted in the Vedic literature, there is also another view to this. With the help of the research done by B. V. Giri Swami, based near Mysore, India, he relates that a closer look at the prediction of Jesus found in the Bhavishya Purana strongly suggests foul play or interpolation on the part of Christian missionaries in India during the late 18th century...

However, there are presently four known editions of the Bhavishya Purana, each having different predictions from the other, but suspiciously having one consistent prediction - that of Jesus or Isha Masiha. One edition contains five chapters, one contains four, another contains three and yet another contains only two. Additionally, the contents in all four editions differ in various degrees - some having extra verses and some having less. Due to these circumstances, it is difficult to ascertain which of the four is the original text of the Bhavishya Purana, if indeed an original text still exists, but suspiciously, as mentioned, all four editions do mention Jesus...

Since none of the four editions of the Bhavishya Purana predate British Rule in India, this further suggests a discrepancy...

Considering the above anomalies and the fact that no edition of the Bhavishya Purana can be found prior to the British period in India, we can deduce that the Bhavishya Purana may have been tampered with by the Christian missionaries who added the chapter on Jesus. Their motive would be obvious -- to make the personality of Jesus acceptable to the Hindus in order to convert them to Christianity. This indeed was one of their tactics in regard to other texts as well."

So I think we need to be very cautious here.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:36 AM   #17
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I only posted one article, so funny how 'every' article contains that quote.
Here is another example:

http://cambodiaforjesus.com/ (just scroll down)

and another:

http://letsrollforums.com/siddhartha...s-t23271.html?
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:38 AM   #18
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Default Jesus prophecised Muhammad

Moses and Isaiah Prophesied the coming of Jesus - (Last updated January 16, 2000)
DID ISAIAH AND JESUS PROPHESY THE COMING OF MUHAMMAD?
(peace be upon the prophets)


JESUS WAS A PROPHET AND
ALSO A PARACLETE SAYS THE BIBLE..

A Christian who has studied the Bible would be proud to admit that the prophecy made by prophet Moses for the coming of "a Prophet like me" (Deut. 18:15) undoubtedly refers to the coming of Jesus Christ. Jesus himself had acknowledged this to be the fact when he said to the enquiring Jews; "Moses wrote of me." (John 5:46). The learned Christians have no problem in admitting the fact that Jesus was "a prophet like his predecessor Moses". Those who deny Jesus was a "Messenger like Moses" are either ignorant of their own Scripture or living in false pride.

In his First Epistle quoted below, apostle John records in explicit language that Jesus Christ the righteous was "a Paraclete".

"My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have a Paraclete with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John. 2:1
Apostle John has also recorded in his Gospel, see the text below, that this righteous Jesus Christ (the Paraclete), will pray to God after his departure, and God will give us "another Paraclete".
"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)." John 14:16
The Bible scholars and the evangelic Christians who, after reading these two explicit verses enter into a debate with the Muslim Scholars and INSIST that the PARACLETE is (was) the HOLY SPIRIT, and is (was) NOT the MALE FIGURE that could see, hear and speak like a man; are simply advocating and contesting that the Apostle who had lived with Jesus (is) was TOTALLY MISTAKEN. He made an ERROR in identifying the PARACLETE to be Jesus. In other words, Muslims should REJECT the EPISTLE of John and ACCEPT their opinions to be the UNQUESTIONABLE TRUTH. Would it not be a better idea that they all should send a petition to the editors of the New Testament and see that this erroneous verse 1 Jn. 2:1 is expunged from the Bible!
Note:
We often read the above verse 14:16 ending; "for ever". The fact of the matter is; "into the age" is the literal translation of the original Greek phrase; 'eis ton aiona'.

In the next verse 14:17, John also records, this "another Paraclete" is the "Spirit of Truth" (NOT the Holy Spirit).

A MALE SALVIFIC FIGURE LIKE JESUS

The passage quoted below from the world renowned and distinguished Anchor Bible confirms that the original concept among the noted Christian scholars and populace, for the Paraclete was for a male salvific figure, but that concept was later confused with the "Holy Spirit".

"The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In 1 John ii 1 Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father. ...Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (page 1135).
Criticism and Response: A well known Christian critic, Jochen Katz, has been complaining on his web site "Answering Islam" that I have ignored his remarks; that my introductory note to the above quoted passage from the Anchor Bible gives a false impression that it's author is in agreement with the quoted passage. Since his accusations were based upon a false statement, I did not feel it necessary to respond. Unfortunately, he has made my silence an "Issue of my Integrity".
To mislead his readers, the critic had in one of his remarks, intentionally deleted the opening words from the above passage.
I have re-printed below the deleted words in Red Types;

"The passage quoted below from the world renowned
and distinguished Anchor Bible confirms".

What I had mentioned was that the quoted passage confirms what has been suggested, based upon the suggestions made in the past by the individuals mentioned in the quoted passage. There was no mention of the "author" of the quoted book, to begin with.
THE NEGATION OF "HOLY SPIRIT"

The concept that the Paraclete (comforter, advocate) is the "Holy Spirit" is unequivocally negated by the following verse:

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16:7
This verse clearly indicates that the coming of the Paraclete was subject to the departure of Jesus. His departure from this world was a *pre-condition* for the arrival of the Paraclete.
We know that the "Holy Spirit" was already present during and before the ministry of Jesus. The Holy Spirit was in existence since the day of the Creation and was hovering upon the surface of the earth (Gen. 1:2). It was also present with the prophets of the Old Testament. The "Holy Spirit" was present "like a dove" at River Jordan when Christ was being Baptized. (Mt. 3:16). Since there is and was only ONE "Holy Spirit", Jesus would be totally mistaken in saying that the HOLY SPIRIT would NOT come not UNLESS he departs. Did not Jesus see the dove that alighted upon him? OR, Jesus did NOT know that the "dove" was the Holy Spirit? Jesus was a RIGHTEOUS Paraclete. When he said; Another Paraclete will come only after my departure, he meant that this Paraclete is not yet here, but will be born after I depart.

"HE" NOT "IT"

"When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26
This verse further clears the confusion, if there is any. Here the Paraclete is called the "Spirit of Truth" and not the "Holy Spirit". These are two separate terms and two independent entities. The first entity takes the pronoun "he" being a male figure. Whereas, the second one takes the pronoun "it". The Greek word 'pneu'ma' (spirit), is of neutral gender and takes the pronoun "it". Whereas, in almost all the verses referring to Paraclete quoted below, the pronoun used is "he".
"But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26
Notes:
1. In the older MS, Codex Syriacus discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs. Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of John 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit". "The Spirit" is a reference to "the Spirit of Truth" as in 15:26.
2. In 1 John 4:6, the terms "the spirit of truth" and "the spirit of error" are used for the human beings.

3. History records that prophet Muhammad was known for his Truth and Honesty, long before he received the Divine Revelations.


WHAT WILL "HE" DO?
Jesus Christ did indicate that the Paraclete will do certain things in his time. Let us examine if "he", Prophet Muhammad, did those things.
1. "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak..." Jn. 16:13
Note: The Qur'an is a compilation of the "Divine Revelations" that were received by Prophet Muhammad, over a period of 23 years, through the arch angel Gabriel. The Prophet used to recite whatever he used to hear. His companions used to write down whatever he recited. The Qur'an does not contain the writings or teachings of Prophet Muhammad, as often mentioned by some misinformed authors.

2. "He shall glorify me." John 16:14
Note: The Qur'an glorifies the birth of Jesus through Virgin Mary. It confirms; Jesus was a Messiah, a Messenger of God, the Spirit from God, the Word of God and the Righteous Prophet.

3. "He shall take mine and shall disclose it to you." John. 16:14
Note: Prophet Muhammad did declare himself a Messenger/Prophet of God like Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

4. "He will teach you all things." John 14:26
Note: The Qur'an teaches a way of life. It guides mankind, how to live a pious life socially, politically and spiritually.

5. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John. 14:26
Note: The Qur'an speaks about the teachings of Jesus and even quotes him.

6. "He will bear witness of me" John 15:26
Note: The Qur'an attests the miracles performed by Jesus the Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing miracle performed by Jesus that the Gospel writers have not recorded (V:110). The Qur'an acknowledges that these miracles and signs were performed with the leave of Allah, by His righteous Servant and Messiah Jesus. The same is also attested in the Book of Acts 2:22; 3:13 (NASB).

A PROPHET IN THE LAND OF KEDAR
Prophet Isaiah is considered to be one of the major prophets of the Old Testament. In the Book of Isaiah there are several prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. In chapter 42, Isaiah begins with a prophecy for the coming of prophet Jesus. After verse number nine, God declares through Isaiah, the "new things" that are to "spring forth" in the
Land of Kedar.

In the Bible there is only one personality called Kedar. He was the grandson of prophet Abraham, through his son Ishmael (see Gen. 25:13). Kedar's descendants had settled in Paran (Syno-Arabian dessert). In the Rabbinic literature Arabia is called the "Land of Kedar". Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Kedar.

God declares through Prophet Isaiah;

"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands." Isaiah Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.
God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad - a direct descendant of Kedar, a "New Song" - The Qur'an (Koran). This happens to be the only Scripture to be revealed in the language of the Kedarites. The verses of the Qur'an are recited like a poem. Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this "new song" and Glorify Allah, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca. There are several mountains near Mecca. During the annual Islamic Pilgrimage called "Hajj", Muslims from all over the world, assemble in Mecca and shout Glory to the Lord from the top of Mount Arafat. The pilgrims continuously give Glory to Allah on their ways, to and from Mecca.
THE LORD SHALL GO AS "A MIGHTY MAN OF WAR"

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Isaiah 42:13
In the Old Testament, the God often speaks "I" will do this, or "I" have done this; whereas, He has chosen human beings to do these jobs on His behalf. (e.g. Deut. 32:39ff and 2 Samuel 12:12).
Note: Critic Jochen Katz has ignored the above paragraph while making his remarks.

Prophet Muhammad did go forth as "a mighty man of war" against the Pagan Arabs, the enemies of The Lord. He did stir up jealousy among the most influential and dominating Pagan tribe in Arabia. With a war cry and roar of "Allahu Akbar" ("The God is the Greatest"), the Prophet of Islam did prevail upon the enemies of Lord - the idolaters. No doubt, the Islam was spread with a "war cry", but that was not a cry of a man seeking the personal power. It was a cry of the Lord, who no longer wanted to hold HIS PEACE against HIS ENEMIES. After the victory, Allah bestowed HIS FAVOR upon mankind and gave the Message of "TRUE PEACE" - The Islam. Once a person whole heartedly submit himself or herself to Allah (become a Muslim), the "True Peace" from Allah is bound to enter his or her body, mind and soul. The relationship of that individual with Allah is now direct, having no Church or Papal Authority acting as a vicar or an intermediary.

"I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself, now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once." Verse 14.
The prophets that came before Muhammad had all tried with peaceful missions. But, the concept of sharing God's Glory continued to surface again and again, in one way or other. It was with the war cry, through the descendants of Kedar (Arabs), these sinful practices were destroyed and devoured, inside and outside of Arabia. The spread of Islam was swift, wide spread and at once.
ISLAM TURNS THE DARKNESS INTO LIGHT

"And I will bring the blind by a way they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known; I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things I will do unto them, and not forsake them." Isaiah Chapter 42, Verse 16.
It is an undeniable fact that before the advent of Islam, the pagan Arabs were like the blinds. Their religious and social concepts were crooked. The revelation of this "new song" brought them out of that darkness. Earlier, God had not sent any prophet to these people. By sending Muhammad, God fulfilled His above promise and also the following promise to Abraham;
"And *also* of the son of the bondwoman I will make a nation, because he is thy seed." Genesis 21:13.
Please note the word "also" in above promise. The nations of Judaism and Christianity came out from the descendants of Abraham and Sarah. The nation of Islam came out from the descendants of Abraham and Hagar. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three children of Abraham by God's Covenants with Abraham.
"They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images; they say to the molten images, 'Ye are our gods.'" Isaiah 42 Verse 17.
History records that Prophet Muhammad did put the pagan idolaters to great shame when he demolished before them, their 365 idols that were installed in Ka'bah (Mecca), the most respected place of pilgrimage in the whole of Arabia. Today, Ka'bah is the Grand Mosque of Islam. Muslims from all over the world face towards Ka'bah while reciting their daily ritual prayers.
http://www.mostmerciful.com/prophecy.htm
__________________
Is it my fault if i tell people to go jump off a bridge that some dumb asses actually go jump!? - John Strangis 28/12/13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqXMQneVsg

There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

Last edited by blackyblue; 04-04-2012 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:40 AM   #19
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I would be very cautious with prophecy in general:

http://godlesshaven.com/articles/bib...phecy_pg1.html

And making prophecy the corner stone of my belief I think is entering some dangerous territory.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:43 AM   #20
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Default Muhammad mentioned by name in Purana

Chapter 7: The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospel of Barn p2

"It (Pesher Habakkuk) describes the struggle between the Teacher of Righteousness and his opponents - the Man of Lies (also termed the Spouter or Preacher of Lies) and the Wicked Priest. The Spouter is pictured as heading a community. The dispute between the teacher and the Spouter is seems to have been based on matters of religious interpretation and law. The wicked priest is said to have begun his rule in truth but then to have abandoned the way of truth. He then persecutes the Teacher, confronting him on the holiest day of the year, the Day of Atonement."

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 228

This prophesy continues in Pesher Psalms:

"This text also mentions the familiar dramatis personae: the Teacher of Righteousness, termed 'the priest'; the wicked priest; and the Man of Lies. The Wicked Priest persecuted the Teacher and sought to kill him. The man of lies lead people astray".

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 229

In Pesher Psalms A 1 III 15-16 we read

"Its interpretation (Psalms 37:23) refers to the priest, the Teacher of Righteousness whom God promised would arise, for He (God) prepared (i.e., predestined) him (the teacher) to build for Him a congregation".

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 120

What we begin to see in all of this is the story of the coming of Jesus (pbuh), his selection of Judas as one of the apostles, the deviance of Judas from the truth, how a sect of the Jews persecuted Jesus (pbuh), how this sect tried to deceive the masses and differed with Jesus (pbuh) regarding the truth of God's message, and finally, how they schemed with Judas to kill Jesus (pbuh). The Teacher of Righteousness is thus a reference to Jesus (pbuh); the "priestly" messiah. The Wicked Priest is a reference to Judas, and the Spouter of Lies is most likely the leader of the "chief priests and Pharisees" who persecuted Jesus (pbuh) and are mentioned so often in the Bible, or it may be a reference to Paul himself.

Many Christian scholars have snatched up these prophesies in order to prove the validity of their claim that Jesus (pbuh) was indeed sent by God and that the Jews are required to follow him. However, they have been thwarted in their attempts by one other quite amazing piece of evidence that the Jews continually manage to refute their claims with, specifically, that the Dead Sea Scrolls claim that the first messiah will be persecuted and that the Wicked Priest will try to kill him, but that the Wicked Priest will not be successful and that it is he who will receive the fate he wished for the messiah.

"The Wicked Priest went so far as to lie in ambush for the Teacher of Righteousness. In interpreting Psalms 37:32, "The Wicked watches for the righteous, seeking to put him to death," the text states: 'Its interpretation concerns the Wicked Priest who watched out for the Teacher of Righteousness and sought to put him to death' Pesher Psalms A 1-10 IV 8-9"

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 233

So Judas will try to kill Jesus (pbuh).

In Pesher Habakkuk 11:4-8 we read

"Its interpretation (Habakkuk 2:15) concerns the Wicked Priest, who pursued the Teacher of Righteousness to swallow him up with his wrathful anger to the place of his exile. And at the time of the day of rest of the Day of Atonement, he (the Wicked Priest) appeared before them to swallow them up and to make them stumble on the day of the fast of their abstention from work."

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 120

"The Wicked Priest began his career with the support of the sectarians, but he quickly lost his way and began to transgress in order to increase his wealth".

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 233

Remember Matthew 26:15

"And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver".

"Various theories have sought to identify the Teacher with Jesus, claiming that he was executed by the Wicked Priest. Had that been the case, the text would not have gone on to explain how God took vengeance against the priest by turning him over to the 'ruthless ones of the nations'. And according to this text, the teacher certainly survived the ambush. Indeed the entire passage is an interpretation of Psalms where the text continues, "The Lord will not abandon him (the Righteous), into his hand (the Wicked); He will not let him (the Righteous) be condemned in judgment (by the wicked)."

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, pp. 233-234

The author goes on to quote Pesher Habakkuk with regard to the Wicked Priest's intentions and his punishment. He says:

"Ultimately, however, the Wicked Priest was punished: '.. because of his transgression against the Teacher of Righteousness and the men of his council, God gave him over to the hands of his enemies to afflict him with disease so as to destroy him with mortal suffering because he had acted wickedly against His chosen one'. The Wicked Priest's enemies tortured him which represents divine punishment for his attacks on the Teacher of Righteousness. The sufferings of the Wicked Priest are even more graphically described in another passage: 'and all his enemies arose and abused him in order for his suffering to be fit punishment for his evil. And they inflicted upon him horrible diseases, and acts of vengeance in the flesh of his body'. The one who suffered was the Wicked Priest, not the Teacher of Righteousness. The enemies of the Wicked Priest, the nation against whom he had made war, are said to have tortured him, so that his life ended in mortal disease and affliction."

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 234

Pesher Habakkuk 9:9-10 reads:

"Its interpretation (Habakkuk 2:8) concerns the Wicked Priest, who, because of (his) transgression against the Teacher of Righteousness and the men of his council, God handed over into the hands of his enemies to afflict him..."

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 119

If we were to read the Gospel of Barnabas, we would find that when Judas came with the Roman troops in order to betray Jesus (pbuh), God raised Jesus (pbuh) unto Him and saved him. He then made Judas look and even speak like Jesus (pbuh) so that the Romans dragged Judas away with them kicking and screaming that he was not Jesus (pbuh) but Judas. Even the apostles were totally bewildered.

After the Romans had their fill afflicting Judas with all manner of abuse and torture, he was finally taken to trial. He was asked many times whether he was Jesus (pbuh) and each time he replied that he was not Jesus but Judas and that Jesus had utilized his black magic in order to alter his form and make him resemble Jesus. Of course, no one believed him. The most his pleas succeeded in doing was to convince some that Jesus was a lunatic. This turn of events appears to be supported by the New Testament where we find that whenever Jesus was asked, "art thou Jesus?" He would reply "Thou sayest"(Matthew 27:11, Mark 15:2). This would be a completely logical response if he was not Jesus but Judas and he had been abused, ridiculed and mocked to the point that he had given up all hope of being believed. In other words, what Judas meant by "thou sayest" was, "you will not believe me if I say otherwise, so why fight it any more."

Judas' enemies (the Romans) then took him and resumed their abuse. They mocked him, kicked him, cut him, spat on him, humiliated him, and tortured him. Finally, they put him up on the cross. It appears, however, that shortly after they took him down, he disappeared from his tomb (perhaps to live in disease and torment and die later on if he was not already dead). The Gospel of Barnabas then goes on to describe how Jesus (pbuh) returned to the apostles to tell them of how God had saved him from the hands of the Jews and the Romans, raised him up into heaven, and how the traitor (Judas) was taken instead.

Once again this chain of events appears to be supported by the New Testament where we find that uncertainty regarding the fate of Judas has resulted in contradicting narrations in it's different books. For example, in Matthew 27:5 Judas is depicted as having felt severe remorse, handed over his blood money to the custodians of the great Temple, and then gone out and hung himself out of shame and remorse. However, in Acts 1:19 far from displaying remorse, Judas is depicted as having purchased a field with his ill gotten gains and then one day while he was out walking he tripped, fell down, and his internal organs burst out. In this manner, divine justice took vengeance against the traitor.

Conservative scholars have tried to harmonize these two conflicting narrations for centuries now, trying to make sense of how in one place it is Judas who purchased the field himself, and in the other it is the chief priests who purchased it. Similarly, in one place Judas died by hanging himself, and in the other he triped and his bowels gush out. In one he was remorseful and in the other he displayed no signs of remorse. As a partial solution to this dilemma, some conservative scholars have suggested that Judas hung himself, the rope broke, he fell down and then his bowels gushed out. In other words, they have taken two contradictory accounts, added in additional details found in neither one, and then come up with a completely new account supported by neither.

As mentioned previously, it is quite possible that the elusive Q document which Christian scholars believe to be the source document for the first three Gospels, (Matthew, Mark and Luke) is indeed the Gospel of Barnabas. This Gospel, once again, appears to have had a strong influence on our current day New Testament, however, the denial of Judas has now taken on various new forms, for example:

In one (Matthew 26:64), Jesus is taken before the high priest who commands him to answer "whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus replies: "Thou has said."

In the next Gospel (Mark 14:61), Jesus is asked the question by the High Priest but this time he is depicted as having answered it directly and courageously. In this version, Jesus affirms "I am…"

However, In Luke 22:67, Jesus now returns to the original "thou sayest" position, albeit with different words. In this version he says: "If I tell you, ye will not believe" Once again, confirming the narration of the Gospel of Barnabas.

Further evidence in support of my assertion that Q may in fact be the Gospel of Barnabas is the fact that the final (Non-Synoptic) Gospel, that of John, contains no mention of the High Priest's question or Jesus' claimed reply. In the Johnine version (John 18:19-23), the questions and answers are quite different than the first three Gospels. The author of the Gospel of Mark appears to have modified the original response in order to depict Jesus as fearlessly answering their questions directly, and heroically standing his ground welcoming their persecution with open arms. On the other hand the other two (Matthew and Luke) still retain the original text reflecting Judas' frustration in the face of the persecution he had intended for his master.

For 1400 years now the Qur'an has been telling us that Jesus (pbuh) was not forsaken by God to be killed by the conspiracy of the Jews and Judas but that "it was made to appear so unto them." Although we as Muslims may never know for certain the details of how this transpired since the Qur'an does not give us these details, still, we read:

"But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear you witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Our Lord! We believe in that which You have revealed and we follow him whom You have sent. Enroll us among those who witness (to the truth). And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers"

The noble Qur'an, A'l-Umran(3):52-54.

"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger, and they slew him not nor crucified, but a similitude of that was shown unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save the pursuit of conjecture; for of a surety they slew him not"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa(4):157

Those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and were ever transgressing. They used not to forbid one another from the evil which they committed. Vile indeed was what they used to do. You see many of them taking the disbelievers as their protectors and helpers. Evil indeed is that which their ownselves have sent forward before them, for that (reason) Allah's Wrath fell upon them and in torment they will abide. And had they believed in Allah, and in the Prophet (Muhammad, pbuh) and in what has been revealed to him, never would they have taken them (the disbelievers) as protectors and helpers, but many of them are the rebellious, the disobedient to Allah. Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) the Jews and the polythiests, and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: "We are Christians." That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud. And when they listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad, pbuh), you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognised. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses. "And why should we not believe in Allah and in that which has come to us of the truth? And we wish that our Lord will admit us (in Paradise) along with the righteous people. So because of what they said, Allah rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), they will abide therein forever. Such is the reward of good­doers. But those who disbelieved and belied Our signs they shall be the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire.

The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5): 78-86

The scrolls then go on to describe how "Kittim" (the Roman empire) and the kings of Greece would both try to take Jerusalem (the symbol of the faithful), but that it would be Kittim (the Romans) who would finally be successful. Remember how in chapter one we described the stages of how the Roman empire eventually took control of the whole Christian religion and "protected" it and "spread" it after it was "clarified" and it's doctrines established and preserved through Greek philosophy and writing?

"Some texts also speak about an eschatological prophet who will announce the coming of the messiah, a figure similar to Elijah in the rabinnic tradition"

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 323

Once again, please read section 6.1 where it is made abundantly clear that not only were the Jews expecting a prophet to "clear the way" for Jesus (pbuh) and "announce" him (this was John the Baptist), but they also expected a second messiah to come after Jesus (pbuh).

Referring to the manuscript titled The Rule of the Community, verse 9:11-12, Mr. Schiffman says:

"this text unquestionably refers to two messiahs, Dual Messiah prophesy who will be announced by an eschatological prophet. Based on a the cave 4 manuscripts of Rule of the Community, the original publication team argued that this passage was added to the text later in the history of the sect. However, the evidence in these manuscripts does not sufficiently support such an assertion. As far as we can tell, the two-messiah concept was part of Rule of the Community from the time it was composed".

Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 324

"Until the coming of the Prophet and both the priestly and the lay Messiahs, these men are not to depart from the clear intent of the law to walk in any way in the stubbornness of their own hearts. They shall judge by the original laws in which the community was schooled from the beginning"

Manual of Discipline 9:8-11 (The Dead Sea Scrolls and Gospel of Barnabas)

"And these, in specific form, are the regulations which they are to follow throughout the Era of Wickedness, until the priestly and lay Messiahs enter upon their office expiate and expiates their inequities"

Zadokite Document 14:18 (The Dead Sea Scrolls and Gospel of Barnabas)

Mr M. A. Yusseff relates in his book:

"In the late second century, as the Memoirs of Hegesippus says, a man was found collecting traditions about the life and ministry of Jesus from the Nazarenes and Christians in order to write a general ecclesiastical history. Whatever was the nature of such an ecclesiastical history, one thing can be said for sure that the traditions carried prophesies about the Messiah who was to come after Jesus. So pervasive was their presence in the ecclesiastical literature that even the Nicolaitans Church of Rome retained them, though in a distorted from"

The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gospel of Barnabas, and the New Testament, M. A. Yusseff, p. 109

To see how the Jews recognized these prophesies and indeed acted upon them in anticipation of the arrival of their final Messiah in Arabia, please read chapter 10.

"And when there came unto them (the Jews) a Scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession though before that they were invoking Allah (for the coming of Muhammad, the last Messiah) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came unto them that which they had recognized, they disbelieved in it. So let the curse of Allah be on the disbelievers"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):89

The Dead Sea Scrolls make mention of many more quite amazing and illuminating prophesies and parallels with the teachings of the Qur'an and Islam. There are also many parallels with the historical series of events presented in this book, such as the reference to the "seekers of smooth things" (simplifying the law of the religion) which sound amazingly similar to the description of Paul and his followers who "simplified" the religion of Jesus after his departure and removed all obligation from it all the while claiming that his authority came directly from "visions" of Jesus (pbuh). He is even quoted, while preaching this removal of obligation and the law, as saying

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

2 Corinthians 11:3 (also see 2 Corinthians 1:12, Romans 3:28, etc.)

"When the prayer was ended, the priest said with a loud voice: 'Stay Jesus, for we need to know who you are, for the quieting of our nation.' Jesus answered 'I am Jesus son of Mary, of the seed of David, a man who is mortal and fears God, and I seek that God be given honor and glory.' The priest answered, 'In the book of moses it is written that our God must send us the Messiah, who shall come to announce to us that which God willed, and shall bring to the world His mercy. Therefore, I pray, tell us the truth, are you the Messiah of God whom we expect?' Jesus answered 'It is true that God has so promised, but indeed I am not he, for he was made before me, and shall come after me.' The priest answered, 'By your words and signs at any rate we believe you to be a prophet and a holy one of God. I pray in the name of all Judea and Israel that you, for love of God, should tell us how the Messiah will come.' Jesus answered, 'As God lives, in whose presence my soul stands, I am not the Messiah whom all of the tribes of the earth expect, even as God promised to our father Abraham saying: "In your seed will I bless all of the tribes of the earth" But when God shall take me away from the world, Satan will raise again this accursed sedition, by making the impious believe that I am God the Son of God. At such time, my words and my doctrine shall be contaminated so much that scarcely shall there remain thirty faithful ones. At that time, God will have mercy upon the world and will send his messenger for whom He has made all things. He shall come from the South with power and shall destroy the idols and the idolaters. He shall take away the dominion which Satan has over men. He shall bring with him the mercy of God for salvation of those who shall believe in his words'"

The Gospel of Barnabas, 96

"Then the disciples wept after this discourse, and Jesus was also weeping, and when they saw many who came to find him, for the chief of priests took council among themselves to catch him in his talk. They sent the Levites and some of the scribes to question him, saying, 'Who are you?' Jesus confessed and said the truth, 'I am not the Messiah.' They said, 'Are you Elijah or Jeremiah, or any of the other ancient prophets?' Jesus answered 'No' Then they said, 'Who are you? Say, in order that we may give testimony to those who sent us.' Then said Jesus, 'I am a voice that cries through all Judea, and cries, "Prepare you the way for the messenger of the Lord," even as it is written in Esaias.' They said, 'If you are not the Messiah or Elijah, or any prophet, why do you preach new doctrine, and make yourself more important than the Messiah?' Jesus answered, 'The miracles which God works by my hands show that I speak that which God wills; nor do I make myself to be accounted as him of whom you speak. For I am not worthy to loosen the shoe straps of the messenger of God whom you call "Messiah," who was made before me, and shall come after me. And shall bring the words of truth, so that his faith shall have no end.' The Levites and the scribes departed in confusion, and recounted to the chiefs of the priests, who said, 'He has the devil on his back who recounted all to him'"

The Gospel of Barnabas, 42

Mr. Yusseff says:

"In sir Godfrey Higgins' notable work Anacalypsis, we are told that in the book of Haggi, the name of the Messiah who was to come after Jesus appears in chapter two, verse seven: 'And the desire of all nations shall come' Here the Hebrew word HMD* [translated as 'desire'], from the Hebrew text appears in Sir Higgins' work with the following explanation of the root word HMD. 'From this root,' (says Parkhurst,) 'The pretended prophet Mohammed, or Mahomet, had his name.' Sir Higgins says, 'Here Mohammed' is expressly foretold by Haggi, and by name; there is no interpolation here. There is no evading this clear text and it's meaning, as it appeared to the mind of the most unwilling of witnesses, Parkhurst, and a competent judge too when he happened to not be warped by prejudice. He does not suppress his opinion here, as he did in the Wisdom of the Jerusalem Targum, because he had no object to serve; he did not see to what this truth would lead."

The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gospel of Barnabas, and the New Testament, M. A. Yusseff, pp. 110-111



Other Ancient Religions and Scriptures:

There is much more that could be said about the Dead Sea Scrolls and their confirmation of the Qur'an and the mission of Muhammad (pbuh), however, that will have to be left to a future book where, God willing, many more examples of this sort shall be analyzed in detail. However, before closing this topic, I would like to pose the following question: Are the Gospel of Barnabas and the Dead Sea Scrolls the only two ancient scriptures that prophesy the coming of a final messenger of God from Arabia? This was a question that I wrestled with for some time. Muslims are told that Allah Almighty had been sending messengers since the beginning of time to all of the nations of earth. They are also told that each one of these messengers had prophesied to their followers a number of matters, among them the coming of the "last messenger" and also the coming of the "false Christ" (whom Muhammad too warned his people of). A brief study of other ancient scriptures available today has lead me to the conclusion that it is indeed the case that many of these religions, no matter their current state, appear to have at one point in time began their life with a true messenger of God and that this messenger of God prophesied the coming of Muhammad (pbuh). Although I have not yet had sufficient opportunity to research this matter appropriately, still, the initial indications appear to support this assertion. Two very brief examples follow:

Example one: The Farsi (Parsi) religion is one of the oldest known religions of mankind. It was practiced in Persia for many centuries and consisted mainly of two scriptures: the Dasatir and the Zand Avasta. In Dasatir 14 (Sasan11) we can find a very clear prophesy of Muhammad (pbuh):

"When the Persians should sink so low in morality, a man will be born in Arabia whose followers will upset their throne, religion and everything. The mighty stiff-necked ones of Persia will be overpowered. The house which was built (The Kaaba in Makkah built by prophet Abraham) and in which many idols have been placed will be purged of idols, and people will say their prayers facing towards it. His followers will capture the towns of Parsis and Taus and Balkh and other big places round about. People will embroil with one another. The wise men of Persia and others will join his followers."

This prophesy requires no interpretation. It is an exact description of matters that we now recognize as historical fact (see end of chapter 10).


Example two: In the Hindu scriptures too there is what appears to be a clear prophesy of Muhammad (pbuh). In Bhavishya Purana he is actually mentioned by name:

"Just an illiterate man with the epithet Teacher, Muhammad by name, came along with his companions. Raja (Bhoja in a vision) to that Great Diva, that denizen of Arabia, purifying with the Ganges water and with the five things of cow offered sandal wood and pay worship to him. O denizen of Arabia and Lord of the holies, to thee is my adoration. O thou who hast found many ways and means to destroy the devils of the world. O pure one from among the illiterates, O sinless one, the spirit of the truth and absolute master, to thee is my adoration. Accept me at thy feet"

Bhavishya Purna Parv 3, Khand 3, Adhya 3, Shalok 5-8

For those who wish to see more, you are encouraged to obtain a copy of the book "The Bible's Last Prophet," by Faisal Siddiqui, Al-Saadawi Publications.

Lawrence Schiffman says regarding Pesher Habakkuk:
http://www.islamawareness.net/DeadSe...rollch7_1.html
__________________
Is it my fault if i tell people to go jump off a bridge that some dumb asses actually go jump!? - John Strangis 28/12/13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqXMQneVsg

There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

Last edited by blackyblue; 04-04-2012 at 01:44 AM.
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