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Old 25-08-2011, 07:01 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by knightofthegrail View Post
In order to claim WTC you need to be working at least 16 hours a week.



It is not a matter of how it is spent. It is the basic principle of being entitled to the fruits of another's labour (which is the source of that tax) without giving anything back. That is what a thief does, and I have yet to see anyone who thinks that such behaviour is ok explain why JSA claimants should not simply burgle £65 a week instead (because it is exactly the same principle in action.
When you are self employed you don't usually have difficulties working for 16 hours. I mean, it takes time to get to your destination, it takes time to do your paperwork, it takes time to buy your supplies etc etc

As for the entitlement issue. It is systemic it is built into the system.
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Old 25-08-2011, 07:05 AM   #62
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When you are self employed you don't usually have difficulties working for 16 hours. I mean, it takes time to get to your destination, it takes time to do your paperwork, it takes time to buy your supplies etc etc
I was answering a post which claimed that you can work for 4 hours a week and claim WTC. You can't.

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As for the entitlement issue. It is systemic it is built into the system.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you please clarify?

Last edited by knightofthegrail; 25-08-2011 at 07:05 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 25-08-2011, 07:26 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by knightofthegrail View Post
I was answering a post which claimed that you can work for 4 hours a week and claim WTC. You can't.



I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you please clarify?


Well OK, I can't answer for someone else. I have been self employed though and I do know that you can be fully engaged in the business, even if you are not actually in the process of earning.



The effort of breaking out of the benefits trap is not worthwhile. It's a costs and benefits analysis on both the side of government and claimants. Coupled with the fact that independent, critical thinking is not highly valued in this society.

It's a subject that requires more than a few lines in a post and I have to go, sorry.

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Old 25-08-2011, 07:30 AM   #64
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Well OK, I can't answer for someone else. I have been self employed though and I do know that you can be fully engaged in the business, even if you are not actually in the process of earning.
Indeed. I understand that completely. T'was just the "4 hours" claim that I was taking exception to.

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The effort of breaking out of the benefits trap is not worthwhile. It's a costs and benefits analysis on both the side of government and claimants Coupled with the fact that independent, critical thinking is not highly valued in this society.
I also understand the benefits trap (having been caught in it myself in the past) yet that is not what I am speaking of. I do not begrudge people claiming benefits that are there. What I do not agree with is the idea the idea that people should get benefits as a matter of entitlement - ie: giving nothing back in return. Teaching entitlement is poison to community, because it teaches people that they should take whilst giving nothing in return; which is the textbook description of theft.
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Old 25-08-2011, 09:31 AM   #65
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Sorry to butt in. But has anyone else noticed that charities are now advertising placements for volunteers on job boards?
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Old 25-08-2011, 09:35 AM   #66
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Sorry to butt in. But has anyone else noticed that charities are now advertising placements for volunteers on job boards?
Yes. I'm out of work currently and volunteer at two Animal Charities - and I found out about the 'positions' via the JC website.
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Old 25-08-2011, 09:55 AM   #67
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Well OK, I can't answer for someone else. I have been self employed though and I do know that you can be fully engaged in the business, even if you are not actually in the process of earning.



The effort of breaking out of the benefits trap is not worthwhile. It's a costs and benefits analysis on both the side of government and claimants. Coupled with the fact that independent, critical thinking is not highly valued in this society.It's a subject that requires more than a few lines in a post and I have to go, sorry.
Critical thinking is discouraged by the system and is the larger percentage of the UK population. Hence the term sheeple, those who do not think. Those who are easily herded, the flock mentaility. Those without the ability of independant thought. The system manufactured "herd culture". Those who spout the same words they are force fead through the media and from their slavemasters.

Thats why the education system for the last 2 decades has been producing droids for the system, they dont want thinkers. They want people with no imagination, no ideals, no creative ability, people who do not question but obey, they want people who can conform to a national curriculum, to conform to a state mindest.

This country has been one large social engineering project for many years and still is. People are being socially engineered to fit the controllers idea of a future world of total and absolute control.

Free thinking is one thing.
Thinking at all in the first place is another.
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Old 25-08-2011, 10:01 AM   #68
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All the Nazi's who love the idea of Workfare need to assess how they feel about their taxes going to the likes of Tesco and Primark so they can get free staff.
Honestly, I rather it went to Tesco's than some lazy Dole Bum.
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Old 25-08-2011, 10:06 AM   #69
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What I do not agree with is the idea the idea that people should get benefits as a matter of entitlement - ie: giving nothing back in return. Teaching entitlement is poison to community, because it teaches people that they should take whilst giving nothing in return; which is the textbook description of theft.
What a weird viewpoint?

Anyone is entitled to state benefits by law. Its not stealing when you are legally entitled to it.

No one is teaching benefits entitlement, IT IS a legal entitlement.

Strange perceptions......
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Old 25-08-2011, 10:10 AM   #70
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Honestly, I rather it went to Tesco's than some lazy Dole Bum.
What is the state benefits system in Norway where you are ?
Do you have any?
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Old 25-08-2011, 10:14 AM   #71
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What is the state benefits system in Norway where you are ?
Do you have any?

Yeh, its really good for the Bums to be honest. Loads of Immigrants come over just for the Benefits too. The Uk seems to be more draconian though, so I guess the lazy will be forced to work long before the Norwegian scroungers.
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Old 25-08-2011, 11:03 AM   #72
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Yes. I'm out of work currently and volunteer at two Animal Charities - and I found out about the 'positions' via the JC website.
Well good for you mate Sometimes people do get jobs when they volunteer for an organisation like you have been doing, you usually need to have been volunteering for a long time though. Are you enjoying it?

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Honestly, I rather it went to Tesco's than some lazy Dole Bum.
What about the people who would rather be employed full time at Tesco's rather than having to do workfare? If they hired people they liked at the end of it I wouldn't have a problem, that would be great. But I suspect it is about getting free labour and the money for participating in the scheme. I don't think it's going to really create any jobs for unemployed people, this is why it sucks. If I owned a company and could get paid for having people work for me for nothing why would I bother hiring any more full time staff?
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Last edited by lesleypumpshaft; 25-08-2011 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 25-08-2011, 12:57 PM   #73
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What about the people who would rather be employed full time at Tesco's rather than having to do workfare? If they hired people they liked at the end of it I wouldn't have a problem, that would be great. But I suspect it is about getting free labour and the money for participating in the scheme. I don't think it's going to really create any jobs for unemployed people, this is why it sucks. If I owned a company and could get paid for having people work for me for nothing why would I bother hiring any more full time staff?
This is what it's all about, this is precisely why the policy has been drafted. It's going to make people less employable because there will be no incentive for people like Tesco to create shelf stacking 'jobs'. I mean they're pretty cruddy jobs to begin with but at least at minimum wage with tax credits they become something close to viable. I saw this coming about four years ago when I used to work for the DWP and they were doing the preparatory consultations and reports. It's been planned for years.
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Old 25-08-2011, 12:59 PM   #74
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Well OK, I can't answer for someone else. I have been self employed though and I do know that you can be fully engaged in the business, even if you are not actually in the process of earning.



The effort of breaking out of the benefits trap is not worthwhile. It's a costs and benefits analysis on both the side of government and claimants. Coupled with the fact that independent, critical thinking is not highly valued in this society.

It's a subject that requires more than a few lines in a post and I have to go, sorry.
A friend of mine has her own business making arts and crafts. She earns absolutely nothing during the winter but gets paid for it, she is working though by making her goods.

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Sorry to butt in. But has anyone else noticed that charities are now advertising placements for volunteers on job boards?
Oh yes, all these charity scams
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Old 25-08-2011, 01:11 PM   #75
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This is what it's all about, this is precisely why the policy has been drafted. It's going to make people less employable because there will be no incentive for people like Tesco to create shelf stacking 'jobs'. I mean they're pretty cruddy jobs to begin with but at least at minimum wage with tax credits they become something close to viable. I saw this coming about four years ago when I used to work for the DWP and they were doing the preparatory consultations and reports. It's been planned for years.
Well this is it, but to what end if you don't mind me asking? Isn't it just costing more because the benefits are still being paid and that's not just the £65 per week job seekers. It's also the housing and council tax benefit. Then on top of that am I correct in thinking the government are actually paying companies for the people they give placements to?

Wouldn't it just be cheaper to incentivise companies like Tesco to take people on full time? Maybe I am missing the point.

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A friend of mine has her own business making arts and crafts. She earns absolutely nothing during the winter but gets paid for it, she is working though by making her goods.



Oh yes, all these charity scams
It's dead round your way in the winter isn't it, does she make up for it over the summer though?

So are these volunteer jobs that are being advertised scams then?
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Old 25-08-2011, 01:37 PM   #76
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Well this is it, but to what end if you don't mind me asking? Isn't it just costing more because the benefits are still being paid and that's not just the £65 per week job seekers. It's also the housing and council tax benefit. Then on top of that am I correct in thinking the government are actually paying companies for the people they give placements to?
Well, my view is that the corporations have simply taken over the government. The multinational corporations are now far more powerful than any one state, let alone the British government. The government simply serves those interests. So you get a situation where the environment becomes more and more fertile for corporations and increasingly hostile for individuals, unless they serve those corporations (or the banking cartel, which is really the keystone in the system). The thing is...it takes time to show the evidence for this! Because there is a hell of a lot. But it's not about saving money per se, it's more about delivering corporations what they want. The scheme probably will cost taxpayers slightly more than the existing benefit system, but the government know very well that they've already brainwashed the population into accepting taxation and indeed many people will hold up as an ethic that they're a "hard working taxpayer", even though they're paying more for less, and this is increased incrementally every year, or at least every parliament. With regards to this scheme all the government has to do is come out and use the right buzzwords and rhetoric, and people will lap it up, because far from seeing the bigger picture, most people have lost the ability to put two and two together. This will probably be a popular policy, if anything.
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Old 25-08-2011, 01:44 PM   #77
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Well, my view is that the corporations have simply taken over the government. The multinational corporations are now far more powerful than any one state, let alone the British government. The government simply serves those interests. So you get a situation where the environment becomes more and more fertile for corporations and increasingly hostile for individuals, unless they serve those corporations (or the banking cartel, which is really the keystone in the system). The thing is...it takes time to show the evidence for this! Because there is a hell of a lot. But it's not about saving money per se, it's more about delivering corporations what they want. The scheme probably will cost taxpayers slightly more than the existing benefit system, but the government know very well that they've already brainwashed the population into accepting taxation and indeed many people will hold up as an ethic that they're a "hard working taxpayer", even though they're paying more for less, and this is increased incrementally every year, or at least every parliament. With regards to this scheme all the government has to do is come out and use the right buzzwords and rhetoric, and people will lap it up, because far from seeing the bigger picture, most people have lost the ability to put two and two together. This will probably be a popular policy, if anything.
Ok, I completely see where you're coming from and I agree with all of that.

I read a really interesting article the other day about how half people in the UK in the middle income bracket don't have any money left over after paying for essentials. The article states that this is very bad for the economy.

So while the nature of capitalism is that the corporations want to give people less in return for more they are actually shooting themselves in the foot. If people can't spend on luxuries this is going to affect the profits of many businesses and the number of people who are living hand to mouth is only going to increase.
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Old 25-08-2011, 01:45 PM   #78
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It's dead round your way in the winter isn't it, does she make up for it over the summer though?

So are these volunteer jobs that are being advertised scams then?
Oh yes, completely dead. This winter it will be very interesting to see what happens. They don't take it into account that this place is a holiday resort.
I haven't seen her this summer so I don't know how her business is going but there was an article on the BBC site on how retailers here are 'feeling the pinch' because holiday makers are extra careful with their money and how they spend it. If things get worse she will fold as people will want to stick to just feeding themselves rather than buy gifts and trinkets.
Even Morrisons haven't been as quiet as this since they have opened.
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Old 25-08-2011, 02:02 PM   #79
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Oh yes, completely dead. This winter it will be very interesting to see what happens. They don't take it into account that this place is a holiday resort.
I haven't seen her this summer so I don't know how her business is going but there was an article on the BBC site on how retailers here are 'feeling the pinch' because holiday makers are extra careful with their money and how they spend it. If things get worse she will fold as people will want to stick to just feeding themselves rather than buy gifts and trinkets.
Even Morrisons haven't been as quiet as this since they have opened.
This is the problem with the cost of living rising so much, lots of people are cutting back and unfortunately people in tourist destinations in the UK will be affected.

I can't imagine Morrisons ever being quiet, my nearest one is always full of migrant farm workers, they always try and nab the decent reduced stuff before anyone else can
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Old 25-08-2011, 02:30 PM   #80
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This is the problem with the cost of living rising so much, lots of people are cutting back and unfortunately people in tourist destinations in the UK will be affected.

I can't imagine Morrisons ever being quiet, my nearest one is always full of migrant farm workers, they always try and nab the decent reduced stuff before anyone else can
Oh I didn't mean they are quiet to the extent Lidls is quiet, just not as jam-packed as usual. I didn't know Morrisons did any decent reduced food or any decent food at all really It's the first shop campers spot so it's the busiest in town.
People get fleeced so much down here, £5 just to park your car for the beach. I'm just glad I don't drive
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