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Old 30-05-2014, 06:46 AM   #1
john white
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Default Why UKIP? History NOT bigotry: Daily Paul

The internet community site "The Daily Paul" has waded into the UKIP debate from across the atlantic with this very authoritative overview of the historical traditions of British Democracy and Free Society

IF its NOT true that UKIP supporters are all universal nazi's, racists and homophobes, what else might be motivating their support and their world view?

http://www.dailypaul.com/319739/why-...ry-not-bigotry

Sample, read complete article on link above:

More than 500 years later, the (British) founders of the USA, in the very tradition of which Magna Carta was an early part, would make explicit the intuitive principle on which the Barons had acted then, and many have acted since: that the power to govern is delegated by the people governed, in whom it entirely resides. But that principle is so deep in the Anglo cultural psyche that even the barons who faced King John at Runnymede were not the first to state it in some way or another: the Charter of Liberties of Henry I had already formally established in the year 1100 that the rule of the king was by consent and that those who made the Law were not above it.

By this long-standing principle, power is lent by the people, in whom it resides, for a limited time to those in government for the purpose of protecting the rights of those people. A British prime minster today has not more right to give his country away to a foreign power than King John had to give the country away to a pope, and it makes no difference how is chosen. And no king or prime minister has any more right to do either than a tenant of my house has to sell or give my house away just because he is temporarily living in it. Power to govern is no more possessed by those who are allowed temporarily to exercise it, than my house is possessed by the person temporarily allowed to live in it.

The argument today for moving power further away from the people upward to a trans-European super-state is wrong on its face: it rests on the idea that legitimacy follows from the fact that the representatives who gave away that power are democratically elected, as if democratic election gives them something they can never possess, or the right to give away something that can never be theirs.

Since that idea is false, the European Union as currently conceived is anti-democratic and anti-liberal by definition.

Moreover, as has been said many times, since democracy is the exercise of kratos (power) by the demos (people), there can be no democracy without a demos . Britain, France, Spain etc. all have their own demos . Europe does not. Setting up an election and putting lots of people from many countries in one building on fat salaries does not make it so.
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Old 30-05-2014, 04:21 PM   #2
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Sensibly balanced article about the historical origin of rights in a free society and how they apply to the situation today with UKIP... and no comments from 100+ views?
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Old 30-05-2014, 04:24 PM   #3
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Sensibly balanced article about the historical origin of rights in a free society and how they apply to the situation today with UKIP... and no comments from 100+ views?
Quote:
Sensibly balanced article
See this is the Big Problem ....

Ron Farage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpQ1bDp5tcg
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Old 30-05-2014, 04:51 PM   #4
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More UKIP propaganda. The writer is a Brit.

http://www.dailypaul.com/user/34486

Neither he, nor the USA, nor thedailypaul have "waded into the UKIP debate from across the Atlantic".

He's a Brit. He lives there. He's getting American citizenship. He's a republican.

Quote:
Robin Koerner is a 30-something British permanent resident of the USA. He is the founder and publisher of WatchingAmerica.com, an organization of 400 volunteers that is dedicated to translating and posting in English news and views about the USA from all over the world.
The writer, Robin Koerner, is a Brit, but is an immigrant to the USA writes:

Quote:
UKIP’s leader, Nigel Farage, was recently called a bigot on account of his remark about being able to understand people’s discomfort at a group of Bulgarians or Romanians to move in next door, and many have sought to insult his supporters with the same accusation.

I have traveled much of the world and I am convinced Britain is one of the most tolerant nations in it. What Nigel was getting at, albeit clumsily, was that the lack of power of the people to control even who comes into their country is a very serious thing indeed. Bulgarians and Romanians are the current placeholders because they are the latest groups who non-British politicians have determined should be allowed into the British nation, regardless of any consequences for the people who are already there. It is the latest, highly visible symbol of just how completely the kratos of the British demos has been given away.

Hmm, and before immigration happened, people decided who came to live next door to them? How many of us have a say in who lives next door to us?

But it's okay if he gets to live in the USA because he meets visa requirements according to immigration laws? It's not okay if other nationalities come HERE, but he can go overseas, and get citizenship there, but preach about Britain and UKIP needing to control its borders. Ultimate irony or what.

Here's the immigrant himself rambling on about why he wants USA citizenship:

http://benswann.com/robin-koerner-wh...e-an-american/


The immigrant's views on 9/11 - anything out of the mainstream with his views? NO. Baa baa baa.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robin-...b_3908194.html
Quote:
9/11 was a historically unprecedented shock and we acted accordingly. We were shaken. No shame in that. But a decade or so later, we can take stock at what we have collectively done to our great nation and determine whether it has served us and will serve our children. We may disagree on what we find but I'd wager that many will say that we have compromised away more of our own identity than any terrorist attack ever did take or ever could take.

The terrorists took over 3,000 lives. The loss was severe; we should learn its lessons of sensible precaution and humility. Each one of those lost souls was -- is -- an infinity, and we should never forget them. It goes without saying that the relevant agencies should be fully resourced to protect us, and their work supported - right up to the point that America is in danger of no longer being American.
But anyway, he's defending UKIP in the OP's link:

Quote:
Voting UKIP doesn’t make someone a bigot. It makes him human, with a wish to protect his fellow countrymen, what is good in his culture, and what has been earned by a demos at great cost over a long time. A UKIP voter is likely drawing the line exactly where it has always been drawn throughout history: where those who are temporarily delegated power by one demos give away the kratos that is not theirs, to those who are part of another demos altogether.

It’s not bigoted to resist that. It is right. Moreover, in historical time, liberty and democracy both depend on it.

No. A bigot is someone who, as a result of their own prejudices, treats members of a group with fear, distrust or hatred. A much better example of one would be a person who treats those who vote differently from himself as inferior based not on knowledge of them as individuals, or of the reasons why they see their country as they do, but on a simplistic assumption about them made only because of the political party they support – allied, perhaps, with a poor sense of history or, for that matter, democracy.
http://www.dailypaul.com/319739/why-...ry-not-bigotry


I hope he reads this, and I hope Robin Koerner the immigrant tells us about how UKIP squares up with regard to all the other heinous ideas, policies, actions, attitudes and speech they've emitted so far. Maybe HE can explain their manifesto. He should try to delve into Nigel Farage's empty skull, and find some of the missing information about....everything. He's not even talked about Murdoch, the tax dodging Barclay twins, Paul Sykes, the monarchy and so on. Yup, I'll definitely take advice from a political climber, an immigrant and a pro-bigot.
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Old 30-05-2014, 05:05 PM   #5
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Murdoch, the tax dodging Barclay twins, Paul Sykes,
Farage was asked to Dinner by Murdoch ....and ...? are the Sun or the Times giving UKIP good press . thought not .

I can find NO solid connection to UKIP and the Barclay Twins ,are they on the UKIP list of Doners then ??

Quote:
Channel Island Twins remain big fans of Boris Johnson: the last thing they want to see is BoJo’s Coronation compromised by the Upstart Farrago
Paul Sykes ,a self made man from a normal background ,Donates to UKIP so what ???

Quote:
Over the weekend, it was suggested to me (by an old hand who should know) that an informal win-win deal exists between the Number Ten Press Office and several nationals – notably the Guardian and Telegraph – to maximise anti-Farage-Kipper-looney stories.

I can well believe it…and further investigation by The Slog has at least partially confirmed it. The Brechtian Alan Rusbridger is always up for the Szechuan Lie, and the Channel Island Twins remain big fans of Boris Johnson: the last thing they want to see is BoJo’s Coronation compromised by the Upstart Farrago. Today’s count of Home page anti-UKip stories at the Daily Telegraph is five.There are a similar number at The Guardian (although not as prominent) but the difference there is that its most distinguished columnist Simon Jenkins continues to be carefully sceptical and scrupulously fair. This is what he wrote today:

‘Tarnishing Ukip as a racist party or castigating it as extreme has proved woefully counter-productive. People who oppose European integration do not like being branded racist. Ukip may be absurdly ramshackle; its policies may be as chaotic as its organisation. This is not at issue. As the vehicle for a point of view, Ukip is specific: it wants Britain “out of Europe”. A vote for Ukip on Thursday is not a vote for an MEP or a party, let alone a government. It is the closest to a referendum on Europe that Britain has been allowed this century, and it will be seen as such.’
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2014/05...ories-sources/

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Old 30-05-2014, 05:18 PM   #6
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Farage was asked to Dinner by Murdoch ....and ...? are the Sun or the Times giving UKIP good press . thought not .
They have had him all over their front pages for ages before the election and that only does one thing, gives him publicity.

If they didnt want him to be known they wouldnt have mentioned him at all. thats how it works in this world grannie, its about time you woke up. you've been a member here for long enough yet you still dont understand how their system works.
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Old 30-05-2014, 05:25 PM   #7
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They have had him all over their front pages for ages before the election and that only does one thing, gives him publicity.

If they didnt want him to be known they wouldnt have mentioned him at all. thats how it works in this world grannie, its about time you woke up. you've been a member here for long enough yet you still dont understand how their system works.
Of course I do ....all I have read for weeks are Slurs and Accusations ...I doubt this was done to help UKIP gain support .

Goodness knows the BBC never had the man off the screen ...WHY ?? To help UKIP or to keep trying to catch him out ?? in which they failed.
They tried with
Robinson
Paxman
Neil
all very hostile interviews ..unless I missed the part where they said "Well Done"
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Old 30-05-2014, 05:44 PM   #8
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Of course I do ....all I have read for weeks are Slurs and Accusations ...I doubt this was done to help UKIP gain support .

Goodness knows the BBC never had the man off the screen ...WHY ?? To help UKIP or to keep trying to catch him out ?? in which they failed.
They tried with
Robinson
Paxman
Neil
all very hostile interviews ..unless I missed the part where they said "Well Done"
Ive just spelt it out for you and you still dont get it? are you just playing dumb?

If Murdock didnt want him know to anyone, he wouldn't have gave him air time or front page news. Do you know how much air time costs?

He has also been printing anti immigration propaganda for the last few years to pave way for UKIP to step up to people sentiments.

Its the papers who make or break Presidents and Prime Ministers.
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Old 30-05-2014, 05:51 PM   #9
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Ive just spelt it out for you and you still dont get it? are you just playing dumb?

If Murdock didnt want him know to anyone, he wouldn't have gave him air time or front page news. Do you know how much air time costs?

Its the papers who make or break Presidents and Prime Ministers.
I DO get it ....and normally would agree ...but not in this case , they thought the public would bite ,but they did not ...they ignored the media coverage and voted how they wanted ...

SKY
BBC
ITV
CHANNEL 4 ran hit pieces on UKIP every night ....

I should add this Channel 4 Fail pretty funny ...Romanian woman agrees with Nigel Farage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzNsedunHHY

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Old 30-05-2014, 06:49 PM   #10
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Why let Rupert Murdoch set the agenda?

The constitutional sovereignty case stands above all the invective

Unlawful government does not deserve consent

Nothing to do with racism, fascism, immigration or fantasies of plots and collusion's in the MSM

It's a personal question for the inner sovereign inside YOU:

Will you bow the head hunch the back and despair?

Or stand tall proud strong and resist tyranny?

Who can rise within themselves to live with courage in their hearts?

Who falls into the pit within and live in shadow and despair?

Who will act with goodwill for shared goal where they find it, and who will paralyise themselves with fear and uncertainty?
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Old 30-05-2014, 08:03 PM   #11
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I can understand people wanting to see the dissolution of the EU project.

However, what I can't understand is the same people who rightly want to see the end of the Elite created and inspired EU wanting
to support and maintain the UK.

The Uk was the Elite's first ever created fake union, and it was done mainly through force and through the impostion of a COMMON
currency, a common flag, a common language, a common national anthem, and a common army........etc all the under the control
and eye of their Royal family.

Doesn't all the above SEEM FAMILIAR?

SO here is my question: I can fully understand you guys wanting to see the end of the EU project - and the sooner the better - but then
surely isn't it also a supreme hypocrisy to want to protect and maintain the equally evil and Elite- created UK, which is the goal of
Ukip and all those other UK unionist parties.



.

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Old 30-05-2014, 08:36 PM   #12
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Robin Koerner..... Hmmmm.... that's a very, VERY "funny name".
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Old 30-05-2014, 08:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
I can understand people wanting to see the dissolution of the EU project.

However, what I can't understand is the same people who rightly want to see the end of the Elite created and inspired EU wanting
to support and maintain the UK.

The Uk was the Elite's first ever created fake union, and it was done mainly through force and through the impostion of a COMMON
currency, a common flag, a common language, a common national anthem, and a common army........etc all the under the control
and eye of their Royal family.

Doesn't all the above SEEM FAMILIAR?

SO here is my question: I can fully understand you guys wanting to see the end of the EU project - and the sooner the better - but then
surely isn't it also a supreme hypocrisy to want to protect and maintain the equally evil and Elite- created UK, which is the goal of
Ukip and all those other UK unionist parties.



.
Well you are right Seanx... in the ultimate sense

Getting out of the EU means nothing in and of itself

Getting out for what? To what? its only the start of the story, the start of the resistance, the start of the change

My overall position is its important to make that start, and if that means engaging with politics shaping and forming debate, then that's what it means: it doesn't mean that for everyone: its a personal choice. Out in the blogosphere and the comments sections of newspapers more high quality information is being shared than ever before

What I don't accept is seeing dark shadows EVERYWHERE and using that as an excuse not to make any effort at all: not saying you are saying that: but its all too observable in general in posts being made in this section

We don't have the luxury of inactivity, and we don't have time to waste

Sitting on our laurels for another 5 years... the future will be chosen for us by then if we cannot stand on our own sovereignty and create something better

Which is why I support the historical perspective of the struggles of our forefathers related in the OP of this thread
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Old 30-05-2014, 10:07 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by john white View Post
Well you are right Seanx... in the ultimate sense

Getting out of the EU means nothing in and of itself

Getting out for what? To what? its only the start of the story, the start of the resistance, the start of the change

My overall position is its important to make that start, and if that means engaging with politics shaping and forming debate, then that's what it means: it doesn't mean that for everyone: its a personal choice. Out in the blogosphere and the comments sections of newspapers more high quality information is being shared than ever before

What I don't accept is seeing dark shadows EVERYWHERE and using that as an excuse not to make any effort at all: not saying you are saying that: but its all too observable in general in posts being made in this section

We don't have the luxury of inactivity, and we don't have time to waste

Sitting on our laurels for another 5 years... the future will be chosen for us by then if we cannot stand on our own sovereignty and create something better

Which is why I support the historical perspective of the struggles of our forefathers related in the OP of this thread

Yes, I agree with a lot of that ; however the objective of most of the people who support Ukip, is the absolute protection and maintainance
of the UK.

They rightly see the EU as Elite-created slave state - yet they are totally committed to preserving that other Elite-created union, the UK,
which was the prototype of the EU 'union'.

It seems Ukip wants to destroy one Elite-created union while keeping British people imprisioned in another Elite-created 'union' under
the all-seeing eye of Royal family.

I totally agree with your objectives, John , (and it is great to see you posting here again) but I personally don't believe a party like Ukip is the
medium through which to do it.

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Old 30-05-2014, 10:58 PM   #15
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Well I see a path of walking common ground with fellow travellers

Yes the ideals of some (if not many) UKIP voters are not going to be the same as mine in terms of a bigger picture

In a parallel universe it might have been some other party that won through to represent a rejection of the Westminster establishment and resistance to the EU: it could easily have been the Green Party, especially in its early days as the Ecology party, when it was about holding corporate power to account for its abuse of the ecosystem, before the Agenda 21 takeover and replacing actual environmentalism with using illusionary money to buy carbon offsets. Both Greens and Liberals were eurosceptic in the not too distant past

UKIP is hardly the first pro-independence party to arise but it is surely the one to make the breakthrough

Putting the brakes on the EU superstate is absolutely paramount

Even if UKIP cannot ultimately succeed at the ballot box, it has blown open the arguments and shown many many people why quiet acquiecence is directly not to their benefit

Ofc the psychological weapons of whipping up robot radicals to scream "RACIST" and "FASCIST" have been deployed: what is truly extraordinary is those weapons abject failure to prevent the most remarkable election result since.... well the start of modern democracy, 300 years. It is the most singular rejection of the original illumanati project as well as the new

Britain means different things to different people. To some it is entirely corrupt rump of a former oppressive empire, to others it has been the bastion of free speach and the expression of ideas that has led the world in terms of rights and values

There is truth, and plenty of it, in both: any culture can only reflect the duality of the battered human ego, at least in this age

Its not that UKIP is some magic talisman, ofc it must be watched and kept honest by the scrutiny of its supporters... but its movement, a snowplow clearing the way, just the same role Icke has played all these years

Time to take advantage and PUSH

Quote:
I totally agree with your objectives, John , (and it is great to see you posting here again) but I personally don't believe a party like Ukip is the
medium through which to do it.
Thankyou and respect
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Old 31-05-2014, 02:36 AM   #16
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Oh good god now we are being told ukips pro independence ,
The uk is made of nations with independence parties ukip calls rubbish
Or fascist
Ffs .

The uk is not a country therefore it can't be independent it's a group of nations
Wales ,N Ireland , Scotland and England
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Old 31-05-2014, 02:39 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by john white View Post
Well I see a path of walking common ground with fellow travellers

Yes the ideals of some (if not many) UKIP voters are not going to be the same as mine in terms of a bigger picture

In a parallel universe it might have been some other party that won through to represent a rejection of the Westminster establishment and resistance to the EU: it could easily have been the Green Party, especially in its early days as the Ecology party, when it was about holding corporate power to account for its abuse of the ecosystem, before the Agenda 21 takeover and replacing actual environmentalism with using illusionary money to buy carbon offsets. Both Greens and Liberals were eurosceptic in the not too distant past

UKIP is hardly the first pro-independence party to arise but it is surely the one to make the breakthrough

Putting the brakes on the EU superstate is absolutely paramount

Even if UKIP cannot ultimately succeed at the ballot box, it has blown open the arguments and shown many many people why quiet acquiecence is directly not to their benefit

Ofc the psychological weapons of whipping up robot radicals to scream "RACIST" and "FASCIST" have been deployed: what is truly extraordinary is those weapons abject failure to prevent the most remarkable election result since.... well the start of modern democracy, 300 years. It is the most singular rejection of the original illumanati project as well as the new

Britain means different things to different people. To some it is entirely corrupt rump of a former oppressive empire, to others it has been the bastion of free speach and the expression of ideas that has led the world in terms of rights and values

There is truth, and plenty of it, in both: any culture can only reflect the duality of the battered human ego, at least in this age

Its not that UKIP is some magic talisman, ofc it must be watched and kept honest by the scrutiny of its supporters... but its movement, a snowplow clearing the way, just the same role Icke has played all these years

Time to take advantage and PUSH



Thankyou and respect

What's needed is violin music to accompany that
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Old 31-05-2014, 10:36 AM   #18
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Ive just spelt it out for you and you still dont get it? are you just playing dumb?

If Murdock didnt want him know to anyone, he wouldn't have gave him air time or front page news. Do you know how much air time costs?

He has also been printing anti immigration propaganda for the last few years to pave way for UKIP to step up to people sentiments.

Its the papers who make or break Presidents and Prime Ministers.
Nice observation!
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